WT...? How can this happen? Did we fail a generation or something. Man my head hurts.

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_mesg&forum=4&topic_id=12927944&mesg_id=12928830&page=
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Of all the rappers that have grabbed the mic over the past 4 decades, you can't name 10 better than Reggie? Is his subject matter not limited? 11 to 15 range is a dope spot to be at on anybody's list. We all know he's technically gifted as hell.

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Falcons, Braves, Bulldogs and Hawks

Geto Boys, Poison Clan, UGK, Eightball & MJG, OutKast, Goodie Mob

.

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Difference being that I wouldn't say shit to anyone that has him 11-15.

He's just definitely not top 10 though.

Rest In Peace, Bad News Brown

Cats complaining about "limited subject matter" are just bizarre to me. Nothing wrong with a rapper playing to his or her strengths and sticking to what they're good at. Having a varied subject matter doesn't make you dope.

Red an certainly has a top 10 discography, and that's even with the "Reggie" album.

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Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

Having varied subject matter and being dope >>> just being dope.

And there are easily 10+ people that fit that description ahead of Redman.

And he's got a better discography that at least 7 out of 10 of them.

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www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

We were talking strictly about technically skilled rappers below.

Nothing else.

Damn yo

-----------------

www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

Look at the bright side...you're still half right.

And about him being Bette technically than half those dudes.

You, however, get be 100% wrong and forfeiting all of your points by using the term"relevant" in a non-ironic manner. So there's that.

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www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

I hate that term more than I hate you son.

I get you like Red and shit but he ain't Top 10 man. It's ok. He's still dope as fuck.

But keep up the dumb shit and I will get your mod status taken away.

>We were talking strictly about technically skilled rappers
>below.


I think that anyone saying that Redman is not a tech skilled rapper needs to be slapped with a bag of nickels (obviously, that's not u though...)....lol

I've seen and heard a lot of things on these boards. But I've never seen anyone say that Redman was not a technically skilled rapper....

That makes little sense to me....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

>>We were talking strictly about technically skilled rappers
>>below.
>
>
>I think that anyone saying that Redman is not a tech skilled
>rapper needs to be slapped with a bag of nickels....lol
>
>I've seen and heard a lot of things on these boards. But I've
>never seen anyone say that Redman was not a technically
>skilled rapper....
>
>That makes little sense to me....

Murph...you are truly disappointing me. Are people this fucking stupid that they can't differentiate "not technically skilled rapper" and "not one of the top 10 most technically skilled rappers"

Honestly. Did you really just come this fucking late to the game on the same dumb shit that we've already established?

READ!

I said there are 10 rappers more technically skilled than Redman.

I did NOT say that he wasn't technically skilled.

>I did NOT say that he wasn't technically skilled.


I know...That's why I said it wasn't u.....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

I'll take my own advice...missed that part.

<---https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01DL9AVTQ

-----------------

www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

You lack of all perspective is very telling.

You're sitting in here mad as shit because people think Redman is a top 10 MC. And your argument seems to be because he doesn't kick knowledge and pretend to be a mafioso. Your lack of sense and logic is even more telling.

-----------------

www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

>You're sitting in here mad as shit because people think
>Redman is a top 10 MC. And your argument seems to be because
>he doesn't kick knowledge and pretend to be a mafioso. Your
>lack of sense and logic is even more telling.

I couldn't be more happy my man. You're acting like I'm the only one saying Red's lack of content is a knock.

And show me where I said anything about "kicking knowledge" of "mafioso" content.

You sound like a Jay-Z diss record right now.

Stop trying to generalize bullshit.

Varied content is about versatility, writing skill, and originality.

We can honestly discuss but if you want to make ignorant ass replies to fit your agenda because you like Redman then fuck it.

People wonder why this board sucks. Even the mods don't know how to have a music discussion.

Some rappers do stay in their lane and are great at it. Be it MC shit, or story-telling, or kicking knowledge or whatever. I'll take the MC who's great at one thing over the guy who's pretty good at a few things just about every single time. And I've got Redman in my top 10 because he's great at MC shit, is technically one of the best, and kicks great story telling rhymes, and makes great songs and albums. You wanna take umbrage at that, that's your business.

>Varied content is about versatility, writing skill, and
>originality.

Hmmm, sounds like Redman.

>We can honestly discuss but if you want to make ignorant ass
>replies to fit your agenda because you like Redman then fuck
>it.

Again, someone else (not you) asked if Redman was top 10. I said yes, and explained why I disagreed that "limited subject matter" was a reason for him not a reason to exclude him from the top 10. You wanted to take exception. And here we are.

>People wonder why this board sucks. Even the mods don't know
>how to have a music discussion.

Dude, you're the one in here throwing temper tantrums because some people don't agree with you. Don't act brand new. You literally gave me a snotty reply after I made a joke based on a skit from a 25 year old Black Sheep album.

I find it funny that people get in a huff about the state of this place only when they aren't getting the co-signs that they want.

-----------------

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Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

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>Some rappers do stay in their lane and are great at it. Be it
>MC shit, or story-telling, or kicking knowledge or whatever.
>I'll take the MC who's great at one thing over the guy who's
>pretty good at a few things just about every single time. And
>I've got Redman in my top 10 because he's great at MC shit, is
>technically one of the best, and kicks great story telling
>rhymes, and makes great songs and albums. You wanna take
>umbrage at that, that's your business.
>

I have nothing against MCs staying in their lane. More should do it. With that said, if all you can do is stay in your lane then you are the definition of limited. Lebron is an all-time great player because he can do everything right? Dennis Rodman is the best rebounder of all-time right? Does that mean he's better than Lebron because he "stays in his lane?" No. No one would say that. Lebron's lane is being great and multiple things. Rodman's is being great at one. The same thing applies to Redman. He's great in his lane. Problem is, like I said before, there are others that are great in multiple lanes.

>>Varied content is about versatility, writing skill, and
>>originality.
>
>Hmmm, sounds like Redman.
>

Actually it doesn't. Stop and think about Redman's creative process. He hears a beat and attacks it the same exact way every single time. That's not creative. Was he original in the beginning, sure. But he never evolved. Some MCs can evolve and some MCs can't. Maybe Red can't so what he does works. And it works better than those that try to evolve and can't. But guess who it doesn't put him ahead of, those that evolve and are successful in doing so.

>>We can honestly discuss but if you want to make ignorant ass
>>replies to fit your agenda because you like Redman then fuck
>>it.
>
>Again, someone else (not you) asked if Redman was top 10. I
>said yes, and explained why I disagreed that "limited subject
>matter" was a reason for him not a reason to exclude him from
>the top 10. You wanted to take exception. And here we are.
>
>>People wonder why this board sucks. Even the mods don't
>know
>>how to have a music discussion.
>
>Dude, you're the one in here throwing temper tantrums because
>some people don't agree with you. Don't act brand new. You
>literally gave me a snotty reply after I made a joke based on
>a skit from a 25 year old Black Sheep album.
>
>I find it funny that people get in a huff about the state of
>this place only when they aren't getting the co-signs that
>they want.

I have plenty of co-signs in this very thread. Fuck you talking about?

>I have nothing against MCs staying in their lane. More should
>do it. With that said, if all you can do is stay in your lane
>then you are the definition of limited. Lebron is an all-time
>great player because he can do everything right? Dennis
>Rodman is the best rebounder of all-time right? Does that
>mean he's better than Lebron because he "stays in his lane?"
>No. No one would say that. Lebron's lane is being great and
>multiple things. Rodman's is being great at one. The same
>thing applies to Redman. He's great in his lane. Problem is,
>like I said before, there are others that are great in
>multiple lanes.

Well, comparing MCs to basketball players is a poor analogy because basketball players are judged by objective things like individual statistics and team wins. As much as some would like to say otherwise, opinions on MCs is done through subjective means and personal preferences. What's witty wordplay and complicated flow to some is unlistenable to others.

But if we were to use your basketball metaphor, Redman wouldn't be Rodman, because he's great at more than one thing. If anything, it's that you're saying he's not so good at ONE, and that's what you think is preventing him from being top 10. There's also a difference at being very good at many things, and being GREAT at many things, which, to use your metaphor, would be LeBron. Now, there may be some LeBron's making hip-hop these days, but there aren't 10 of them that are better at what they do than Redman, IMO.


>Actually it doesn't. Stop and think about Redman's creative
>process. He hears a beat and attacks it the same exact way
>every single time. That's not creative. Was he original in
>the beginning, sure. But he never evolved. Some MCs can
>evolve and some MCs can't. Maybe Red can't so what he does
>works. And it works better than those that try to evolve and
>can't. But guess who it doesn't put him ahead of, those that
>evolve and are successful in doing so.

"Evolve" is again a useless term. It's just a stand-in for "Rhymes about different stuff". And Red doesn't attack the beat the same way every time. He switches up his flow, cadence, etc. appropriately. And he does it better than most. And it puts him in the top 10.


>I have plenty of co-signs in this very thread. Fuck you
>talking about?

You got incredibly insecure when I made a joke. You went directly to "people don't know how to discuss music" when people disagree with you. That's the #1 anger indicator.

-----------------

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Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

>
>>I have nothing against MCs staying in their lane. More
>should
>>do it. With that said, if all you can do is stay in your
>lane
>>then you are the definition of limited. Lebron is an
>all-time
>>great player because he can do everything right? Dennis
>>Rodman is the best rebounder of all-time right? Does that
>>mean he's better than Lebron because he "stays in his lane?"
>
>>No. No one would say that. Lebron's lane is being great and
>>multiple things. Rodman's is being great at one. The same
>>thing applies to Redman. He's great in his lane. Problem
>is,
>>like I said before, there are others that are great in
>>multiple lanes.
>
>Well, comparing MCs to basketball players is a poor analogy
>because basketball players are judged by objective things like
>individual statistics and team wins. As much as some would
>like to say otherwise, opinions on MCs is done through
>subjective means and personal preferences. What's witty
>wordplay and complicated flow to some is unlistenable to
>others.
>
>But if we were to use your basketball metaphor, Redman
>wouldn't be Rodman, because he's great at more than one thing.
>If anything, it's that you're saying he's not so good at ONE,
>and that's what you think is preventing him from being top 10.
>There's also a difference at being very good at many things,
>and being GREAT at many things, which, to use your metaphor,
>would be LeBron. Now, there may be some LeBron's making
>hip-hop these days, but there aren't 10 of them that are
>better at what they do than Redman, IMO.
>
>

Comparing MCs to basketball players is only a poor analogy when it doesn't work in your favor. By your standards comparing MCs to anything but MCs could be classified as a poor analogy. Obviously it isn't perfect but it works. And Rodman wasn't only good at rebounding. He was good at various things and an all-time great at one. Same exact thing as Redman. He is very good at many aspects of MCing but is lacking in one key area. Shit, even their names are one letter off...lol

>>Actually it doesn't. Stop and think about Redman's creative
>>process. He hears a beat and attacks it the same exact way
>>every single time. That's not creative. Was he original in
>>the beginning, sure. But he never evolved. Some MCs can
>>evolve and some MCs can't. Maybe Red can't so what he does
>>works. And it works better than those that try to evolve
>and
>>can't. But guess who it doesn't put him ahead of, those
>that
>>evolve and are successful in doing so.
>
>"Evolve" is again a useless term. It's just a stand-in for
>"Rhymes about different stuff". And Red doesn't attack the
>beat the same way every time. He switches up his flow,
>cadence, etc. appropriately. And he does it better than most.
>And it puts him in the top 10.
>
>

So now you get to dictate what terms are useless to fit your agenda? How is evolve useless? You can't minimize it just to "rhymes about different stuff". I can also tell by your opinion that you have never written a rhyme before in your life. "switching up your flow" is about as simplistic as evolving can get. Let's compare Redman to someone like Nas. Nas has written from every perspective, has covered countless topics, has changed his flow, voice and rhyme patterns extensively, has told stories...the list goes on. You can tell that Nas' method of writing and constructing a song is much more in depth than someone like Redman. It's not even a conversation to be honest with you.

>>I have plenty of co-signs in this very thread. Fuck you
>>talking about?
>
>You got incredibly insecure when I made a joke. You went
>directly to "people don't know how to discuss music" when
>people disagree with you. That's the #1 anger indicator.

Thanks...I had no idea. I thought that it was a honest comment based on you not being able to have a discussion up until that point in the thread.

Obviously you have turned around and have had a discussion so you must have felt there was some truth to my comment.

Best...nah

Sometimes it pays to leave the dumbassery to the experts.

__________________________________________
CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!!
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Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

Some people are on that nerd shit.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

Only thing I said was Red was not a Top 10 MC and that he was limited content-wise.

I'm talking about the other fools in that thread mouthing off about dumb shit. Red himself knows what his lane is, and stays in it-no way I could listen to someone talk about smoking weed, rapping and kicking people's asses for 2o years if they're not skilled.
But I couldn't include him in a top ten list at all for that reason. He'd probably realistically be in the top 15-2o.

__________________________________________
CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!!
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Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

I won't make a list but I'll say who is a legit option and who isn't.

My end point is...Red is not.

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Nm

The poster was right about his general lack of content. I guess he forgot to mention a rapper that occupied a similar lane who went by the name of Busta Rhymes. He also didn't have much for content, but his technical skills trumped Redman's.

Rest In Peace, Bad News Brown

Busta got corny as hell sometimes.

I said he's not Top 10 and that's even if we were basing it on technical skills alone.

Never did I say he wasn't a good rapper technically.

If you take my comment without reading the back and forth then it may look like that...but it was a Top 10 discussion and you said the list wasn't about the Top 10 artists or whatever and I made the point that it always wasn't just the Top 10 technically skilled rappers and then added that Red wouldn't crack that list either.

Oh...and I'm not a "GD cat." I pretty much only respond to music related posts in GD.

Just inbox me your address so I know where to send your Ls.

The link shows your WORDS, WTHeck are you tawnbout?


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Were we not talking about a Top 10 list and the specifics of how those Top 10 were being judged?

I'll give you that. My comment should have said specifically..."Redman would not be top 10 if we are judging on technical skills alone either"

>Were we not talking about a Top 10 list and the specifics of
>how those Top 10 were being judged?
>
>I'll give you that. My comment should have said
>specifically..."Redman would not be top 10 if we are judging
>on technical skills alone either"

For you to even sat that Red is not in the top technically skilled rappers is still crazy.


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Nas
Black Thought
Andre 3000
Eminem
AZ
Mos Def
Pharoahe Monch
Treach
Rakim
Biggie

Let me add, like Popwell said above, Red has to be technically nice to stay that relevant for that long because his content is next to none.

He's most like top 11-15 technically and 20-25 otherwise.

In addition to my list...where do you rank Red technically against MCs like Pun, Jay or even Royce?

Plus Big Boi is better than Andre 3000. And neither is in my top 15 Technical Rappers.
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Not even debatable.

He has way more rhyme schemes, much more various delivery, and can string words together almost better than anyone.

Shit, I didn't even mention Kool G Rap or BDK yet!

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lol

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>Nas
agreed

>Black Thought
agreed

>Andre 3000
agreed

>Eminem
Red got a better discog

>AZ
lol, no

>Mos Def
agreed

>Pharoahe Monch
Red got a better discog

>Treach
no

>Rakim
agreed

>Biggie
agreed, but Red's two best albums (DIAD & MW)are just as good as Big's or better

My man...we are talking "technical skill".

Why the FUCK are you countering with "Red has a better discog?"

Everyone I posted is technically better than Redman.

That does not mean I think they're are greater or have better discography.

I can't believe people are having this much trouble with the premise of this.

every one I said no to, I believe Red is better than technically. and for a couple he is not better than, I mentioned he has a better discog because it speaks to his ability as an artist (even with the limited content), same thing Hood did above.

I get it. you're upset we don't agree with you? We don't have to. But like you, I don't have Red in my top 10-15 either. def top 20

ohh and just because, Busta is a more technically gifted rapper than Red

LOL @ thinking Red is technically better than AZ.

They are actually a good comparison though.

Both stay in their lane style wise.

AZ obviously has varied his topics a bit more.

Red has a better discography although I'd take AZ's greatest songs over Red's all day.

AZ is actually one of the MCs that suffered from stepping out of his lane with production and mainstream attempts. He's actually not terrible at it but he desperately needed a good executive producer that what's the a yes man.

Y'all can stop with the "mad" bullshit.

Adults can have disagreements without being mad you know.

Either way...we agree more than we don't in this case.

just outside of it, but at the same time, not close to 10 or under.

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there's nothing particularly special, difficult, or interesting about the meters and rhythms he employs

afaik he can't do "double time" raps or rap over slower beats although i'm sure someone will post a song or two refuting this

he's great at being in the pocket but that's more "rap skills 101" than "technically skilled"

he's a great rapper irrespective of "technical skills" but i never once thought of him as a technical rapper in the vein of twista, tech n9ne, freestyle fellowship, rock, etc.

and how he combines that with a certain spark of energy as well as being uncommonly lyrical considering his usual topical range. He's in the 5th percentile of MCs when it comes to that. Guys like Ludacris get more credit and don't deserve half of it.

__________________________________________
CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!!
------------------------------------
Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

>and how he combines that with a certain spark of energy as
>well as being uncommonly lyrical considering his usual topical
>range.

can you provide a specific example of this? what you're describing above looks like "rapping over a beat" to me. what does "being uncommonly lyrical" have to do with "technically skilled"?

in a manner that highlights all of it. Not many people actually can do that.
Funkorama is a good example of what I'm talking about. He doesn't lead with lyricism or flow like most rappers do. He uses them in concert. It takes a high degree of skill to do that and make it look effortless.

__________________________________________
CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!!
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Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

...as it relates to rapping. that's fine. it's interesting to read someone else's thoughts on this kind of thing

>Funkorama is a good example of what I'm talking about. He
>doesn't lead with lyricism or flow like most rappers do. He
>uses them in concert. It takes a high degree of skill to do
>that and make it look effortless.

i agree that it takes a lot of skill to make rapping look effortless but that particular skill doesn't register as "technical" in my eyes

to me "technical skill" is about:

• complex and/or varied cadences (saafir, andre 3000)

• dense and/or unconventional rhyme schemes (em, diverse)

• heavy use of compound/multisyllabic and/or internal rhymes (kiss, DOOM, cam'ron)

• rapping quickly in an accurate and coherent manner (big boi, twista)

i don't think redman exhibits any of those qualities. he can be an incredible rapper it's mostly due to his distinctive voice and the way he blends humor with street talk. if you transcribe his raps rhythmically on to sheet music you're not going to see anything interesting or unique. if you throw his raps into some imaginary compound/internal rhyme filter machine not much is going to pop out of the other end

he's still a great mc. just not a technical one

I wouldn't say you're wrong but a lot more goes into being technically gifted than what you described, or I should say CAN go into being technically gifted. It's more about usage and mechanics than it is being able to discern a particular rapping style.

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------------------------------------
Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

mostly because i feel the attributes i listed (with the possible exception of cadence) are quantifiable and demonstrable. you can point out x number of multis/internals per bar. you can show how someone's meter or rhyme scheme is difficult or unique. that's "technical" to me. the demonstrable and non-subjective attributes of one's rapping style. not lyrics or voice or inflections (maybe inflections count)

vague phrases like "usage and mechanics" and "vocal inflection with the rhyme pattern" without concrete examples scream "subjective" to me and appear to approach confirmation bias

but that's okay. not everyone thinks the same way about these things. and the vocabulary to discuss the non-musical facets of rapping isn't codified (yet) so it's sometimes difficult to express what you have in your head with loosely-defined terms like "flow" and "cadence." i don't even know how to talk about someone's inflections as they relate to the snare drum but i know it's a big part of rapping and not many people do it at a high level (see: "scarface" by gibbs + madlib). this stuff is hard to talk about on a micro level when we only really have macro terms

I done heard it all now. I'm a fan of both but I do not agree with that fam.

******************************************
Falcons, Braves, Bulldogs and Hawks

Geto Boys, Poison Clan, UGK, Eightball & MJG, OutKast, Goodie Mob

...anyone who disputes the caliber of emceeing on his earlier recorded stuff, or his 'technical' skill in a live setting (voice, delivery, etc) has zero credibility.

Zero.

I think it does come down to your definition of "technically skilled."

I was playing Da Goodness a few years ago and told some peeps that this is a clinic how to emcee. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx_uqkmyiC0
The way he split his patterns to emphasize the beat and swaps his flows every couple of bars plus the multis and semis were an absolute thing of beauty: "Buy whips straight up cash out parking lots. Clorex your Fort Knox till ya'll call SWAT".

Redman doesn't do it like this constantly but by my definition, he's as technical skilled, if not more, than most rappers.

Is he Top 10 or not?

That's the conversation.

Everyone agrees he is technically skilled.

Is he Top 10?

Ask any top rapper who's in their top 10 and Redman will be in their and I bet it will average out to top 5.
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.

Red being top 5 is not actually ridiculous when you take everything into account but

Go ahead and do the research. Let me know what you find.

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I have Red somewhere around top 15-25 on both, greatest and technically skilled MC list.

But apparently you can't read so I take back my comment on you ever reading a book.

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.

Since you're misinformed on what you're posting about.

How old are you again?

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.

Either way Red is not top 10 let alone top 5.

Still haven't seen you do any research in regards to your claim.

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