With TPAB and T&Y as recent markers for recently released GREAT albums, I'm wondering if we should start breaking up the "classic" designation for albums into the "classic"/"masterpiece" option.

I love both albums, but if someone were to say "those aren't classic albums" I would probably agree. But there needs to be a category for this kind of achievement. It feels like classics meet the expectations of the waiting public, are are bonafide hits that enter into pop culture familiarity. Masterpieces though feel like they meet the expectations of the artists. It is a shared personal achievement opposed to a disseminated social accomplishment.

TPAB, T&Y, The Ecstatic....personally these albums aren't necessarily "classic" but they are definitely masterpieces, and I think I prefer them to actual standalone classic achievements.

What say you?

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SUPA NERD LLC.
Knowledge Meets Nature
Musica Negra
#13irteen

there are plenty of albums, especially underground or albums in the past 20 years or so which would be called masterpieces. Those albums are well-executed with a great level of skill, but because those albums didn't end being - influential with peers, or created a new form of creativity, or made a lot of money, it's hard to call them classics in the same way that The Chronic is a classic or The Blueprint is a classic.

But Black on Both Sides, To Pimp a Butterfly and Fear of a Black Planet for examples would all be masterpieces. All were well-made and made an artistic impact on music and the culture of hip-hop specifically.

>there are plenty of albums, especially underground or albums
>in the past 20 years or so which would be called masterpieces.
>Those albums are well-executed with a great level of skill,
>but because those albums didn't end being - influential with
>peers, or created a new form of creativity, or made a lot of
>money, it's hard to call them classics in the same way that
>The Chronic is a classic or The Blueprint is a classic.
>
>But Black on Both Sides, To Pimp a Butterfly and Fear of a
>Black Planet for examples would all be masterpieces. All were
>well-made and made an artistic impact on music and the culture
>of hip-hop specifically.

Where I will struggle in accepting this distinction 100% is in your point about some albums not "being influential with peers"...because, the albums you named specifically (BoBS, TPaB, FoaBP) and albums like them, I DO feel that they were super influential with their peers...or at least (in the case of Black on Both Sides and that whole Rawkus/Soulquarian/underground early 2000s situation) part of a larger movement that had a VAST impact on hip-hop as a whole and their peers. I dunno if I'd be willing to throw that into the definition we're trying to establish here. Obviously the albums named and those like them, weren't major game changers like The Chronic, etc...but that plays into the "lack of mainstream noise" portion of the conversation. But among their peers, I think artists like Mos and Kendrick and albums like BoBS and GKMC/TPaB have and will have huge impacts on their peers. That's the thing about mainstream rap....it always has an ear to the underground for ideas then the mainstream artists either have the business smarts themselves, or the label push necessary to bring that sound to the masses and, if they're skilled enough, improve upon it.

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

>That's the thing about mainstream rap....it always has
>an ear to the underground for ideas then the mainstream
>artists either have the business smarts themselves, or the
>label push necessary to bring that sound to the masses and, if
>they're skilled enough, improve upon it.

I've been saying this for years, I even wrote a paper in class in college and made a presentation on it. Like literally playing people the "mainstream" song they knew, and then following it up with the underground song that was its predecessor.

________________________________________________
R.I.P. Soulgyal <3
SUPA NERD LLC.
Knowledge Meets Nature
Musica Negra
#13irteen

>I've been saying this for years, I even wrote a paper in class
>in college and made a presentation on it. Like literally
>playing people the "mainstream" song they knew, and then
>following it up with the underground song that was its
>predecessor.

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

that other MC's of their time look to as the 'gold standard'. But I can't see TPaB being as influential to other MC's or producers as a 2Chainz record because only a handful of artists will have the skill, personal awareness, creativity, and artistic integrity to make such a well-received album like TPaB.

That doesn't take anything away from the craftsmanship and skill needed to pull of an awesome piece of art, but even though Biggie may have been a better MC in the old-school sense, Tupac's career was more influential because without Tupac, there wouldn't have been a range of MC's like DMX to Lil' Wayne or Kanye - MC's with simpler lyrical structure and lessened emphasis on intricacy.

The albums you mentioned all had an impact on hip-hop, some more than others, but classics are game changers, even if those albums aren't masterpieces, e.g. Get Rich or Die Trying.

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

I've always felt that people were far, far too quick to label albums "classics." In reality, many of the albums some people call "classic" are: "personal classics" (for lack of a better term) which I would describe as albums which hold a particular significance for that person whether due to personal circumstances at the time of its release or something similar, etc.; or they are "masterpieces" which you so aptly described, but I would further the definition by emphasizing the relative lack of mainstream success, in stark contrast to its critical reception which is overwhelmingly positive (albums like Ecstatic, Below the Heavens, etc).

Anyway - I agree wholeheartedly with your analysis/definition of the term "masterpiece" in that they should be considered albums on which the artists' true vision was fully realized and executed.

I'm interested to see what people come up with.

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

getting an 'A' in class by the teacher's metric vs your own.

So like you can be the kid with the volcano for the science fair, and get an 'A' OR you can be the kid that like invents velcro for the science fair.

When people aren't limited to the expectations they usually perform limitless possibility. Its weird cause *personally* I feel like masterpiece > classics, but that doesn't make logical sense on first glance.

Then, for example, is something like "Supreme Clientele" which as a Ghostface fan is a personal classic AND a masterpiece, though the closest thing that makes it a classic by contemporary measures would be like "Cherchez LaGhost". But I know too many people who would love that song, but would hate "Stroke of Death"....tho at least on OKP most people would say 'Supreme Clientele' is a classic album.

________________________________________________
R.I.P. Soulgyal <3
SUPA NERD LLC.
Knowledge Meets Nature
Musica Negra
#13irteen

Happy 50th D’Angelo: https://chrisp.bandcamp.com/track/d-50

Whenever I'd mention an album that really moved me but maybe not so much the rest of the world, I'd call it a personal classic.

But I really think I like the use of the term, "masterpiece" a lot more.

"Classic" is about imprint on the zeigeist, legacy,
influence.

You can only have a "classic" if the art form's artistic
gatekeepers are listening.

'Sex and Violence' is a masterpiece. Problem is, KRS had already
alienated white hip-hop by then, and so it didn't have enough
going for it to get steam that it needed. Nobody bothered to
listen.

'Run the Jewels' is *near* classic (note quite). It had the ear
of Hip-Hop's artistic gatekeepers. It's definitely not a
masterpiece, though (I love it, btw).





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O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

ultimately I feel like classics definitely are within respect to society/culture at large. Masterpieces are definitely concocted within a vacuum where you kinda have to detach from your existence and tap into what the artist is presenting. Its a special occasion when they both intersect (TPAB)....however, time will tell how "classic" that album holds up.

AOTY might help it. If he sweeps and boycotts the Grammys he DEFINITELY will.

________________________________________________
R.I.P. Soulgyal <3
SUPA NERD LLC.
Knowledge Meets Nature
Musica Negra
#13irteen

The best work in an established Genre. It is the best work by a master artist.

I use Classic to describe a groundbreaking album that marks the beginning of something new. You don't have to be a master artist to create a classic work. You do have to be an innovator.

Classic Albums aren't always GREAT executions of work but are always very original. Masterpieces aren't always the most original or groundbreaking album but are always well executed.

That's why the notion of calling a new album an instant classic is problematic because we won't know if a work is a classic until we see how influential the work is. However, you can identify a masterpiece right away.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

> I use Classic to describe a groundbreaking album that marks
>the beginning of something new. You don't have to be a master
>artist to create a classic work. You do have to be an
>innovator.
>
>Classic Albums aren't always GREAT executions of work but are
>always very original. Masterpieces aren't always the most
>original or groundbreaking album but are always well executed.
>

but with technology making things increasingly easier, and blurring the lines of actual work, doesn't that kind of redefine or mess with the idea of what is a masterwork/masterpiece?

an instant classic happens sometimes and we don't realize it. what in the past ten years would you consider to be a classic album?

if you want to consider game changers, it'd be "thug motivation 101" by Young Jeezy. you could play it whenever. it had crazy beats, jeezy's style was unlike anyone else's. he had guest features from other hot artists at the time, but he stole the show. he was the king of one liners with that album. him and shawty redd redefined the sound of "trap" music.

he used beats from different producers and made it cohesive. this was at the time, when the standard was "timbaland/neptunes/kanye/just blaze/scott storch/lil jon" super producer compilations.

the most imitated album prior to that was "the blueprint" with the sped-up soul samples.

drake "so far gone" that album has crazy influence. everyone bumps or had that mixtape. i've never consciously listened to it all the way through. but i've heard it, and i can hear the impact it's had on setting a standard in the industry. it's at least a master work for him.

but go on producing forums and everyone wants a "drake" type beat or something like "40 or boi 1da." kinda like how everyone wants trap beats that sound like shawty redd or drumma boy.

below the heavens. dope beats, dope rhymes. "he's the producer i'm the dj." it sounds fresh, but it can stand up next to any of the classics of the golden age. boom bap had kind of lost its relevancy with trap being so popular. they quietly made an album that was the opposite of everything considered hot and made something special. it's like if if you don't listen to jazz but you like rock. they made it cool to like jazz again. or i don't listen to jazz, but i'll bump that "below the heavens..."

drake's put a different spin on the wheel, blu's said if it ain't broke don't try and fix it, and i think jeezy's was the closest to re-inventing it.


jeezy's was an instant classic though.

because by definition a classic work needs time to be proven correct. Now if you let the average fan tell it, whenever an artist they like puts out an album, it's a classic (black folks, you're the #1 culprit of this).
Albums also don't "get better with time." When an album is made, it's as good or bad as it's going to be. Now if your ears fall behind or catch up in the years since its release, that's pretty much a personal thing.

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Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

>RE: the term "instant classic" is an oxymoron
>because by definition a classic work needs time to be proven
>correct.

...nowhere did it say that time passage was a stipulation. It didn't even hint at it. And I was kinda disappointed in that because I have consistently rallied against the overusage of "classic" and the term "instant classic" like you are here.

As a matter of fact, what's funny is that in the context of "art," the main definition of "classic" is "a masterpiece work."

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

1 a : serving as a standard of excellence : of recognized value <classic literary works>
b : traditional, enduring <classic designs>
c : characterized by simple tailored lines in fashion year after year <a classic suit>
2 : of or relating to the ancient Greeks and Romans or their culture : classical
3 a : historically memorable <a classic battle>
b : noted because of special literary or historical associations <Paris is the classic refuge of expatriates>

Three of these directly state that time needs to pass before something can be considered classic, and the rest either don't apply to music or suggest stands of excellence. Something has to be tested before being a standard.

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CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!!
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Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

I think I just googled it and did a quick search.

Anyway - just to be clear I wasn't arguing with you. Just thought what I saw was interesting. Glad to see it was wrong.

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

I was just saying that's the definition I use. Words have a tendency to change over time, but that's a term that always snaps back to the original meaning from my experience.

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CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!!
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Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

Like I have been saying throughout this post, I am a stickler about the term "classic" so I'm glad to see I'm not alone.

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

....Classic should be earned over time, although when people say it, they're really just trying to state how great they think the album is in the biggest possible way.

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