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Subject: "imcvspl's Deep Thoughts: Now that Gaye family awarded $7.4M" Previous topic | Next topic
imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Tue Mar-10-15 05:03 PM

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"imcvspl's Deep Thoughts: Now that Gaye family awarded $7.4M"


  

          

We're fucked.

That is all.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
WTF, that is outrageous.
Mar 10th 2015
1
RE: WTF, that is outrageous.
Mar 10th 2015
7
      My point was you can't copyright a style, feeling, or 'groove'
Mar 11th 2015
23
      RE: WTF, that is outrageous.
Mar 11th 2015
29
      come on, dog.
Mar 11th 2015
34
      RE: come on, dog.
Mar 11th 2015
39
           i've encountered a lot of people that thought it was Prince.
Mar 11th 2015
57
           Ready for the World like the Deele jacked what was happening
Mar 11th 2015
62
                RE: Ready for the World like the Deele jacked what was happening
Mar 11th 2015
84
      prince never paid Journey for Purple rain which borrowed
Mar 11th 2015
50
The decision has got to be repealed.
Mar 10th 2015
2
RE: imcvspl's Deep Thoughts: Now that Gaye family awarded $7.4M
Mar 10th 2015
3
i think it's actually a case closer to sampling than it appears
Mar 10th 2015
4
      The trial was about the sheet music only.
Mar 10th 2015
8
           but if it's not ruled based on note for note appropriation
Mar 10th 2015
13
                *clears throat*
Mar 11th 2015
24
                     can you help me find what the "eight distinct elements" were
Mar 11th 2015
28
                          okay i found a ref for 'four notes' and vocals refing basslines
Mar 11th 2015
32
                               RE: okay i found a ref for 'four notes' and vocals refing basslines
Mar 11th 2015
35
                                    thicke and them had a shitty musicologist
Mar 11th 2015
37
                                         i dunno that i agree.
Mar 11th 2015
38
                                              The problem is that Thicke and them recognize influence
Mar 11th 2015
42
                                                   HR's complete coverage of the trial.
Mar 11th 2015
44
                                                        RE: HR's complete coverage of the trial.
Mar 11th 2015
48
                                                             lord.
Mar 11th 2015
77
                                                                  Miller's responses were in that summary as well
Mar 11th 2015
88
                                                                       Miller's responses are not testimony.
Mar 11th 2015
91
                                                                            fair enough
Mar 11th 2015
103
                                                                                 i get you now.
Mar 11th 2015
105
                                                                                      thanks for explaining all of this
Mar 12th 2015
112
I'm overcharging ninjas for what they did to the cold crush
Mar 10th 2015
5
But Thicke was barely involved in the song's creation.
Mar 10th 2015
6
RE: But Thicke was barely involved in the song's creation.
Mar 10th 2015
9
      Thicke is ordered to pay $200K more than Pharell
Mar 10th 2015
10
           this ruling is waay better than 40 acres and a useless mule
Mar 10th 2015
11
                Dr. King saw this ruling from the mountaintop.
Mar 10th 2015
12
                     lol........
Mar 10th 2015
14
                     RE: lol........
Mar 11th 2015
21
                     All our dead Black musical heroes are REALLY gonna clean up....
Mar 11th 2015
19
                          RE: All our dead Black musical heroes are REALLY gonna clean up....
Mar 11th 2015
22
Get the fuck out of The Lesson.
Mar 11th 2015
25
      RE: Get the fuck out of The Lesson.
Mar 11th 2015
41
I am pleased.
Mar 10th 2015
15
i never figured you for an idiot.
Mar 11th 2015
26
      So you disagree.
Mar 11th 2015
31
           with the ruling?
Mar 11th 2015
36
how many artist will d'angelo pay for "another life"?
Mar 10th 2015
16
it was too blatant and also its really on the industry
Mar 10th 2015
17
Kellz is gonna get reamed.
Mar 11th 2015
18
      no more than Prince and any other major artist
Mar 11th 2015
20
           both pharell and kellz have made a career of this kinda shit.
Mar 11th 2015
27
                True. Those Love Letter and Write Me Back albums Kellz dropped...
Mar 11th 2015
43
                alright now do tell me what is the biggest R.kelly song on himself
Mar 11th 2015
55
                     you are not alone uses same chords as "don't stop believing."
Mar 11th 2015
92
                     or you could say that you are not alone the beat alone
Mar 11th 2015
106
                     Kellz did the same thing Pharrell and Thicke did.
Mar 11th 2015
98
                you got selective ears Prince jacked sly stone crazy
Mar 11th 2015
51
Again.....
Mar 11th 2015
30
^^^^^^^
Mar 11th 2015
33
RE: Again.....
Mar 11th 2015
40
the only thing lower than slavery is the music biz, huh?
Mar 11th 2015
45
lol
Mar 11th 2015
90
      i'd be happy if i were getting a cut of the Gaye estate like you.
Mar 11th 2015
94
Be sure to celebrate when David Bowie reams the James Brown estate
Mar 11th 2015
47
the industry is set up against Black people i agree
Mar 11th 2015
67
no it won't because Pharrell and thicke's track record
Mar 11th 2015
59
Fuck that jury
Mar 11th 2015
46
So, hang-wringers: which songs are now in danger?
Mar 11th 2015
49
Stevie Wonder - Master Blaster. The Marley family will be cashing checks...
Mar 11th 2015
52
Chord progression, main riff, and vocal melody are all different.
Mar 11th 2015
61
      Wow, just like "Blurred Lines" and "Got to Give It Up"!
Mar 11th 2015
64
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Mar 11th 2015
69
      BOOM. Dead. n/m
Mar 20th 2015
135
      lol.
Mar 11th 2015
74
           You're very mad, seemingly at me.
Mar 11th 2015
75
                i'm furious, actually.
Mar 11th 2015
76
                     he's getting a cut of the Gaye estate check.
Mar 11th 2015
78
Michael Jackson - Beat It. The Knack will be rolling in dough
Mar 11th 2015
53
Ditto.
Mar 11th 2015
68
      Nope. Qunicy Jones and MJ repeatedly said that "Beat It" was...
Mar 11th 2015
70
James Brown - Hot (I Need to Be Loved). David Bowie wants his cash
Mar 11th 2015
54
Midnight Star - Curious. Wonder how much the Gaye estates seeks...
Mar 11th 2015
56
Mark Ronson's "Uptown Funk" and "Feel Right."
Mar 11th 2015
58
RE: Mark Ronson's "Uptown Funk" and "Feel Right."
Mar 11th 2015
71
      LOL, I was being facetious with the "publishing" comment
Mar 11th 2015
72
      the Gayes had sued the publishing holder for not
Mar 11th 2015
79
The JB's - The Grunt.
Mar 11th 2015
60
Alicia Keys - Fallin'. Another win for the James Brown estate
Mar 11th 2015
63
The entirety of R. Kelly's Love Letter" album
Mar 11th 2015
65
The entirety of the Daptone Records catalogue
Mar 11th 2015
66
MJ, "the way you make me feel"
Mar 11th 2015
80
I'm afraid you've missed the point.
Mar 11th 2015
82
      you want links to songs that used that riff before MJ?
Mar 11th 2015
83
           No, man.
Mar 11th 2015
97
Ronson/Mars, 'Uptown Funk'
Mar 11th 2015
85
and plus 'Funk You Up' by The Sequence.
Mar 12th 2015
127
Ed Sheeran 'Thinking Out Loud'
Mar 11th 2015
87
D'Angelo, 'Another Life'
Mar 11th 2015
89
all the pop songs that jack white sings in this video.
Mar 11th 2015
96
'jack white'?
Mar 11th 2015
100
      him too!
Mar 11th 2015
101
      I *think* he means Jack Black and that is also incorrect.
Mar 12th 2015
115
           More Kangaroo Jack.
Mar 12th 2015
116
                lol.
Mar 12th 2015
117
Stevie Wonder's "pasttime paradise' sued for the Beatles' 'Eleanor Rigby...
Mar 11th 2015
102
RE: So, hang-wringers: which songs are now in danger?
Mar 11th 2015
104
for those who need everything spelled out for them:
Mar 11th 2015
73
RE: for those who need everything spelled out for them:
Mar 11th 2015
81
RE: for those who need everything spelled out for them:
Mar 11th 2015
86
      and the sheet music is clearly different.
Mar 11th 2015
93
      The mistake was letting a jury decide...
Mar 11th 2015
95
      RE: for those who need everything spelled out for them:
Mar 11th 2015
99
Thicke also got hit because the cat never had a hit
Mar 11th 2015
107
el debarge channeled and was motivated by marvin gaye
Mar 12th 2015
108
The plot thickens
Mar 12th 2015
109
mariah carey did it as alicia keys and countless others
Mar 12th 2015
118
nicholas payton from two years ago [swipe]
Mar 12th 2015
110
that article is beyond retarded.
Mar 12th 2015
111
      RE: that article is beyond retarded.
Mar 12th 2015
113
           i might not, actually.
Mar 12th 2015
114
           RE: that article is beyond retarded.
Mar 12th 2015
119
                RE: that article is beyond retarded.
Mar 12th 2015
120
                     You're going to trust the dude who considers the song to be....
Mar 12th 2015
121
                     RE: You're going to trust the dude who considers the song to be....
Mar 12th 2015
122
                          stevie wonder said it ain't the same song.
Mar 12th 2015
123
                               RE: stevie wonder said it ain't the same song.
Mar 12th 2015
125
                                    Why/how is it ''easier''?
Mar 12th 2015
126
                                    Well....
Mar 12th 2015
128
                                    RE: stevie wonder said it ain't the same song.
Mar 12th 2015
129
                                         wholeheartedly agree.
Mar 12th 2015
130
                     you don't have to pick anyone.
Mar 12th 2015
124
Gaye family now suing T.I. and anyone else tangentially related to the s...
Mar 19th 2015
131
RE: Gaye family now suing T.I. and anyone else tangentially related to t...
Mar 19th 2015
132
      RE: Gaye family now suing T.I. and anyone else tangentially related to t...
Mar 19th 2015
133
           RE: Gaye family now suing T.I. and anyone else tangentially related to t...
Mar 19th 2015
134

amplifya7
Member since Feb 07th 2010
2989 posts
Tue Mar-10-15 06:04 PM

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1. "WTF, that is outrageous."
In response to Reply # 0
Tue Mar-10-15 06:32 PM by amplifya7

          

7.4 million for making something that didn't sample the actual sounds OR have a similar melody, just had a (very) similar groove

i thought copyright infringement either had to consist of copying the recording itself, or the actual songwriting...not just a rhythm/groove

By this logic, Prince should've sued Ready For The World for Oh Sheila having a groove like Prince songs, Rihanna should sue Sia for Elastic Heart/Chandelier sounding like her songs, etc.

  

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howardlloyd
Member since Jan 18th 2007
2729 posts
Tue Mar-10-15 07:50 PM

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7. "RE: WTF, that is outrageous."
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

>7.4 million for making something that didn't sample the
>actual sounds OR have a similar melody, just had a (very)
>similar groove
>
>i thought copyright infringement either had to consist of
>copying the recording itself, or the actual songwriting...not
>just a rhythm/groove
>
>By this logic, Prince should've sued Ready For The World for
>Oh Sheila having a groove like Prince songs, Rihanna should
>sue Sia for Elastic Heart/Chandelier sounding like her songs,
>etc.

you know sia writes Rihanna's songs right?

and no oh Sheila was never mistaken for a single Prince song

tall cats really apologizing for this blatant rip that they admittedly were channeling? lolz

http://howardlloyd.bandcamp.com

  

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amplifya7
Member since Feb 07th 2010
2989 posts
Wed Mar-11-15 06:37 AM

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23. "My point was you can't copyright a style, feeling, or 'groove'"
In response to Reply # 7


          

Which is what Thicke/Pharell arguably copied.

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
23113 posts
Wed Mar-11-15 08:50 AM

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29. "RE: WTF, that is outrageous."
In response to Reply # 7
Wed Mar-11-15 09:01 AM by murph71

          

>and no oh Sheila was never mistaken for a single Prince song


lol...WTF???

Are u kidding me, dog?

Even Prince in the same year "Oh Sheila" came out jabbed RFTW with much side-eye for ripping off his "groove" and "sound"....And yet there was no lawsuit...

In fact, years later when Timbaland was going to the press and complaining about how all the producers were taking his sound and running with it Prince responded in an interview that Timbo should stop crying. Paraphrasing Prince in an interview: "That's just how music works. My sound was getting copied from everybody. But you didn't see me complain about Ready For The World. I just changed my sound..."

Of course people mistook "Oh Sheila" for the Prince sound/song. That's why it became a huge crossover record on the pop charts. Because everybody was jacking Prince's groove at that point. But RFTW was no. 1 in that department. They JACKED the hell out of Prince. More than what Thicke and P did with Marvin's "GTGIU".....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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MISTA MONOTONE
Member since Jan 30th 2004
58563 posts
Wed Mar-11-15 10:04 AM

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34. "come on, dog."
In response to Reply # 7


  

          


>and no oh Sheila was never mistaken for a single Prince song

it very much was. and the group itself was. right down to the Jheri Curls. Ready for the World was definitely looked at a group trying to cash in on the Minneapolis (Prince) movement and sound.

------------------------------------------
latest mixtape:
https://www.mixcloud.com/mistamonotone/music-to-smack-motherfckers-to/

mistamonotone - taboo
http://mistamonotone.bandcamp.com/album/taboo

@mistamonotone
IG: mistamonotone

  

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howardlloyd
Member since Jan 18th 2007
2729 posts
Wed Mar-11-15 11:12 AM

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39. "RE: come on, dog."
In response to Reply # 34


  

          

when I said single song I meant....

name the prince song that is mistook for oh Sheila. you can't. of course it's the prince sound but mfuckas thought that blurred lines was Marvin Gaye's song lol

http://howardlloyd.bandcamp.com

  

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MISTA MONOTONE
Member since Jan 30th 2004
58563 posts
Wed Mar-11-15 11:55 AM

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57. "i've encountered a lot of people that thought it was Prince."
In response to Reply # 39


  

          

>when I said single song I meant....
>
>name the prince song that is mistook for oh Sheila. you can't.
>of course it's the prince sound but mfuckas thought that
>blurred lines was Marvin Gaye's song lol

furthermore, you can't tell me that "Tonight" wasn't ripped from the Prince slow jam template.

as far as direct jack (if that's what you're asking me for)...no. but this Blurred Lines shit was a disaster in the making. especially when they tried to deny the similarities. that was just a dumb dumb move.

------------------------------------------
latest mixtape:
https://www.mixcloud.com/mistamonotone/music-to-smack-motherfckers-to/

mistamonotone - taboo
http://mistamonotone.bandcamp.com/album/taboo

@mistamonotone
IG: mistamonotone

  

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mistermaxxx08
Member since Dec 31st 2010
16076 posts
Wed Mar-11-15 12:01 PM

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62. "Ready for the World like the Deele jacked what was happening"
In response to Reply # 39


          

and yet those cats could play. and in defense of ready for the world and the deele is that what they were jacking was happening at the time in order to get played on radio.

what blured lines did felt like a tribute routine and its a iconic song period.

everybody knows it.

there is a difference of a act coming out and sounding like what is happening and then an act being out jacking a known song and those turkeys got caught.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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howardlloyd
Member since Jan 18th 2007
2729 posts
Wed Mar-11-15 02:36 PM

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84. "RE: Ready for the World like the Deele jacked what was happening"
In response to Reply # 62


  

          


>there is a difference of a act coming out and sounding like
>what is happening and then an act being out jacking a known
>song and those turkeys got caught.
>
>

http://howardlloyd.bandcamp.com

  

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mistermaxxx08
Member since Dec 31st 2010
16076 posts
Wed Mar-11-15 11:45 AM

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50. "prince never paid Journey for Purple rain which borrowed"
In response to Reply # 7


          

from "Faithfully" though he called them and cleared the air.

it happens. acts take all the time, its that pharrell ain't no real producer. he is a known jacker period

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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shockzilla
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37800 posts
Tue Mar-10-15 06:26 PM

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2. "The decision has got to be repealed."
In response to Reply # 0


          

  

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double 0
Member since Nov 17th 2004
7008 posts
Tue Mar-10-15 07:19 PM

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3. "RE: imcvspl's Deep Thoughts: Now that Gaye family awarded $7.4M"
In response to Reply # 0


          

it'll be appealed..

The trial seemed way too nuanced for a jury..

I mean we are talking Sheet Music vs Sheet music and expert musicologists trying to explaining the most complicated shit to someone who is still gonna say..

Yea I heard that song on the radio .. it kinda sounds like that other song so.. boom

Double 0
DJ/Producer/Artist
Producer in Kidz In The Hall
-------------------------------------------
twitter: @godouble0
IG: @godouble0
www.thinklikearapper.com

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Tue Mar-10-15 07:29 PM

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4. "i think it's actually a case closer to sampling than it appears"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

what's up for debate is the 'heart' of the song. not the notes, melody, lyrics or anything like that. i still haven't reviewed all of the documents, but if framed the way i think, this shit will set a backdoor precedent which says the heart of a song is open to interpretation, not based on the (still absurd) three note requirement.

the appeal will happen, but not sure if it will be successful. again it boils down to how it was argued.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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SoWhat
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154163 posts
Tue Mar-10-15 07:50 PM

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8. "The trial was about the sheet music only."
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

Not the sound recording. The jury found that the defendants used enough of the sheet music without permission to amount to infringement.

fuck you.

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Tue Mar-10-15 10:29 PM

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13. "but if it's not ruled based on note for note appropriation"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

the implication is that the heart of the music was stolen. again i still haven't read up on how it was argued, but that's my concern. if it's not note for note, interval for interval or something akin it can only be speaking to infringement of the heart of the music.


█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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SoWhat
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154163 posts
Wed Mar-11-15 07:02 AM

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24. "*clears throat*"
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

>i still haven't read up on how it was argued

so you'd rather imagine it and panic, possibly needlessly?

right on.

b/c, you know, the info is out there. and not hard to find.

LOL.

anyway, i'm not even sure what your concern is.

fuck you.

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Wed Mar-11-15 08:37 AM

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28. "can you help me find what the "eight distinct elements" were"
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

that's what i haven't been able to source yet. a lot of summaries mentioning them but i haven't gotten those eight things which represent the heart of the music.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Wed Mar-11-15 09:10 AM

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32. "okay i found a ref for 'four notes' and vocals refing basslines"
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

both of those can be attributed to the songwriting but i'm wondering about the other six.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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SoWhat
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154163 posts
Wed Mar-11-15 10:22 AM

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35. "RE: okay i found a ref for 'four notes' and vocals refing basslines"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/how-similar-is-blurred-lines-778635

On Thursday and Friday, the Gaye family's attorney Richard Busch called a pair of musicologists to the stand, and the courtroom became a course on music theory with their testimonies on what they hear in common between the compositions. (The musicians' lawyers will call their own musicologist, Sandy Wilbur, this week.)

Here's the breakdown of similarities:

"Signature phrase": Judith Finell, the Berkeley-educated head of a musicology consulting firm, labeled one phrase per song the immediately identifiable "signature phrase": the opening lyrics "I used to go out to parties" in Gaye's "Got To Give It Up" and the chorus opener "And that's why I'm gon' take a good girl" in "Blurred Lines." She found the similarities in their melodies "pretty stunning" and "highly unusual," she testified. She said both begin with a repetition of the same note — "one of the most important considerations in comparing melodies" — and end with a single word ("girl" and "dancing") sung over several notes, the effect called a melisma, among other likenesses. Thicke and Williams' attorney Seth Miller noted the designation "signature phrase" is nowhere in the lead sheets, but rather is Finell's choice of comparable passages. "The musicologist's job is to understand the important and unimportant parts of a musical work," argued Finell. "It's my analytical description."
Hook: Finell compared "Take a good girl" to "Keep on dancin' " in Gaye's song. "In the case of these two hooks, the key words of the hook, the money words — 'good girl' and 'dancing' — come immediately after the bar line," said Finell, referring to the timing of the words. The phrases share three of their four notes, she said.
Keyboard-bass interplay: The songs feature bobbing keyboard and bass lines with similar rhythms and moments of silence. Though the chord progressions aren't identical — Miller pointed out that "Got To Give It Up" uses eight chords while "Blurred Lines" uses just two — Finell noted they both use E and A chords.
The Gayes' other musical expert, Harvard professor of African-American music Ingrid Monson, argued that Gaye's bass line and its pairing with a reggae- or ragtime-influenced keyboard melody were highly unusual in Motown music. That means it's hard for Thicke and Williams to claim they were influenced by the genre in general, she said, instead of the Gaye songs specifically. " suggest that while 'Blurred Lines' was being written, 'Got To Give It Up' was playing in the background," she continued. (The remark was struck from the record.)
Lyrics: Both songs center on transformation. The narrator of "Got To Give It Up" transforms from a wall hugger to an enthusiastic dancer, while in "Blurred Lines," "the 'good girl' will transform into a more sexually liberated girl," said Finell. Then the judge cut her off, pointing out she's not a literary expert, but a musicologist. Line by line, the experts compared lyrics including Gaye's "move it up / Turn it 'round / Shake it down" and Thicke's "Shake around / Get down / Get up."
The rap verse in "Blurred Lines" begins and ends at the same point in the song as the Gaye song's "parlando" — a lyrical chanting Finell described as "a precursor to rap." The jury looked amused while Busch and Finell compared lyrics from the parlando and the rap verse, including pairing Gaye's "Let me step into/ to your erotic zone" with a line of T.I.'s that Busch refused to read aloud — "I'll give you something big enough to tear your ass in two" — before he remarked to the audience, "Well, I lost that bet."
"Theme X": Finell identified a short, recurring melodic line she labeled "theme X," heard in Gaye's sung lyrics "dancing lady" under the main vocal. It's the same melody Thicke sings under lyrics including "OK, now he was close" and "But you're an animal," she testified, including one recognizable note out of key. "It's the same musical material. It's the same notes, the same rhythm, just ... the same," she said. Miller responded that Thicke's vocals don't match the Gaye sheet music, but Finell said the discrepancy is because Thicke's theme X matches a harmony not written but implied in the lead sheet. "It's represented as one melodic line when really there's three that occur," she said.

In the coming week, the musicians' attorneys Miller and Howard King will bring their own musicologist, likely to refute Finell and Monson's evaluations as well as present her own. Whatever the jury decides, they'll need to evaluate both sides' music theory in fine detail.

fuck you.

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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37. "thicke and them had a shitty musicologist"
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

and the gaye's had a really good one.

they should have been better prepared to reduce all of the gaye arguments to the sheet music. that said the gaye's musicologist did a really good job.

again though the crux seems to revolve around elements at the heart of the song which is where the parallel to sampling comes in. where these were blurry in a replayed setting in the sampling world it'll become even more difficult.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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SoWhat
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38. "i dunno that i agree."
In response to Reply # 37


  

          

>and the gaye's had a really good one.

i haven't found a report that detailed the defendant's expert testimony.

it could be that the jury believed the plaintiff expert and not the defense's. or that the jury believed both so they canceled each other out and so the jury found based on other evidence. i dunno.

>they should have been better prepared to reduce all of the
>gaye arguments to the sheet music. that said the gaye's
>musicologist did a really good job.

i dunno what the defendant's expert did b/c i haven't read anything about it. but the judge limited the case and all testimony to the sheet music and only allowed a stripped down recording of GTGIU to be played for the jury.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/marvin-gayes-family-doubts-fair-767568

>again though the crux seems to revolve around elements at the
>heart of the song which is where the parallel to sampling
>comes in. where these were blurry in a replayed setting in the
>sampling world it'll become even more difficult.

okay.

fuck you.

  

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imcvspl
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42. "The problem is that Thicke and them recognize influence"
In response to Reply # 38


  

          

They can't say it was their completely original idea. Without that then all you really have to do is point out where the influence crossed the line into copying musical elements. Based off of what you swiped the case is hard to argue against. Phrasing, two chords, interaction of the bass, placement of the chant/rap, etc. It's just too many things to dispute. Which isn't to say it isn't disputable, but based on what was swiped it wasn't done well.

If it were me I would have brought Maxwell's "Closer" and something else even older in the vein, to juxtapose similarity and push that the elements didn't originate with Gaye. I would have thrown the reggae bass back in their face to say if Gaye's could have been influenced and original so could Thicke. I would have argued transformation of the elements as key in distinguishing the two and showing originality.

Etc.


█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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SoWhat
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44. "HR's complete coverage of the trial."
In response to Reply # 42


  

          

read these links to find out what HR reported actually happened during the trial so you don't have to make it up. it's a thing that actually happened.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/package/blurred-lines-trial

fuck you.

  

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imcvspl
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48. "RE: HR's complete coverage of the trial."
In response to Reply # 44


  

          

pssh i'm procrastinating at work. if there's things i've misrepresented feel free to point them out. imo they didn't have a strong enough counter to the gaye's specific claims. of course in a jury case there's a lot of room for misinterpretation, but regardless, the actual claims are sound unless evidence was presented to counter or deflate them.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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SoWhat
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77. "lord."
In response to Reply # 48
Wed Mar-11-15 01:55 PM by SoWhat

  

          

>pssh i'm procrastinating at work. if there's things i've
>misrepresented feel free to point them out. imo they didn't
>have a strong enough counter to the gaye's specific claims.

i dunno b/c i haven't read their counter. LOL. have you read it? if not, how do you know what they countered with?

of
>course in a jury case there's a lot of room for
>misinterpretation, but regardless, the actual claims are sound
>unless evidence was presented to counter or deflate them.

you've only read a summary of the plaintiff's expert testimony. the defense also had an expert who testified for their side. i dunno what that expert said b/c i haven't seen any story about it.

but i have been through similar trials and as i said earlier - it could be that the jury found the plaintiff's expert to be more credible. or maybe the experts on each side were equally credible so the jury disregarded them. i've sat on 2 juries in cases w/experts and that happened - we liked both so we disregarded them, basically. and we had to decide the case on other evidence.

again...i dunno what the defense expert said b/c i haven't read anything about it. if you have i'd like to see it.

i think it's most likely the jurors were turned off by the defendants' testimony. specifically, Pharrell claimed that he wasn't thinking about GTGIU when he made BL (which on its face sounds ridiculous that he just happened to make a song that feels so much like GTGIU w/o trying). Pharrell said he had been working on a Miley song and some other song and one of those had a Country feel and so he was doing a yodeling thing and that's what he was thinking when he wrote BL. i don't buy that myself. and Thicke admitted that he'd lied about his part in writing the song where he'd previously said in an interview outside court that he and Pharrell wrote the song together and had tried to create something that sounded like GTGIU. during the deps it was revealed that Pharrell wrote the song w/o Thicke and Thicke made some suggestions but they weren't used b/c Pharrell's ideas were better. but the jury also heard how much $ Thicke made b/c he has a writing credit on the song though he wrote basically none of it. plus i dunno how much the jurors may have known about Thicke's shenanigans over the last 2 yrs (surely the defense counsel fought to keep that stuff out) but if they heard or knew much of that it couldn't have helped the defense case, i think.

i don't think it was about all of the music theory being bandied about - b/c it likely went over the jurors' heads as it seems to go over the heads of many ppl who post here, for example.

fuck you.

  

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imcvspl
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88. "Miller's responses were in that summary as well"
In response to Reply # 77


  

          

>you've only read a summary of the plaintiff's expert
>testimony. the defense also had an expert who testified for
>their side. i dunno what that expert said b/c i haven't seen
>any story about it.

"Thicke and Williams' attorney Seth Miller noted the designation "signature phrase" is nowhere in the lead sheets, but rather is Finell's choice of comparable passages. "The musicologist's job is to understand the important and unimportant parts of a musical work," argued Finell. "It's my analytical description."

That's what I'm basing my comments on.

>but i have been through similar trials and as i said earlier -
>it could be that the jury found the plaintiff's expert to be
>more credible. or maybe the experts on each side were equally
>credible so the jury disregarded them. i've sat on 2 juries
>in cases w/experts and that happened - we liked both so we
>disregarded them, basically. and we had to decide the case on
>other evidence.

sure

>again...i dunno what the defense expert said b/c i haven't
>read anything about it. if you have i'd like to see it.

there were a couple other refs in your swipe.

>i think it's most likely the jurors were turned off by the
>defendants' testimony. specifically, Pharrell claimed that he
>wasn't thinking about GTGIU when he made BL (which on its face
>sounds ridiculous that he just happened to make a song that
>feels so much like GTGIU w/o trying). Pharrell said he had
>been working on a Miley song and some other song and one of
>those had a Country feel and so he was doing a yodeling thing
>and that's what he was thinking when he wrote BL. i don't buy
>that myself.

Not a ref to yodeling but a parallell is gaye's lawyer's assertion that gtgiu is unique as a motown song and so can't be attributed to the sound of motown.

>and Thicke admitted that he'd lied about his
>part in writing the song where he'd previously said in an
>interview outside court that he and Pharrell wrote the song
>together and had tried to create something that sounded like
>GTGIU.

which casts further doubt.

>during the deps it was revealed that Pharrell wrote
>the song w/o Thicke and Thicke made some suggestions but they
>weren't used b/c Pharrell's ideas were better. but the jury
>also heard how much $ Thicke made b/c he has a writing credit
>on the song though he wrote basically none of it. plus i
>dunno how much the jurors may have known about Thicke's
>shenanigans over the last 2 yrs (surely the defense counsel
>fought to keep that stuff out) but if they heard or knew much
>of that it couldn't have helped the defense case, i think.
>
>i don't think it was about all of the music theory being
>bandied about - b/c it likely went over the jurors' heads as
>it seems to go over the heads of many ppl who post here, for
>example.

that may be the case in terms of why the jury decided, but i think the nature of the arguments are also important for both appeals and future cases. i would say presented to a judge they'd come to the same verdict.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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SoWhat
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91. "Miller's responses are not testimony."
In response to Reply # 88
Wed Mar-11-15 02:50 PM by SoWhat

  

          

that's cross examination. experts are rarely 'destroyed' on cross. expert testimony is best challenged w/another expert.

again - the defense had an actual expert testify and i haven't seen a summary of that testimony.

>>again...i dunno what the defense expert said b/c i haven't
>>read anything about it. if you have i'd like to see it.
>
>there were a couple other refs in your swipe.

none of them had a full summary of the defense expert testimony. i looked for it and didn't see it.

>Not a ref to yodeling but a parallell is gaye's lawyer's
>assertion that gtgiu is unique as a motown song and so can't
>be attributed to the sound of motown.

maybe you didn't read the summary of Pharrell's testimony (that's what i referenced above). here's a link and a swipe:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/blurred-lines-trial-pharrell-says-779355

He said that while Gaye's music didn't influence the songwriting, his other producing work in the studio that day did. "I had Earl Sweatshirt in one room and Miley Cyrus in the other. I was doing a bunch of country-sounding music with Miley," he said, so when he went to work on Thicke's track, >>bluegrass and >"yodeling"< were on his mind<<. "It was like blending this country sound with this up-tempo groove," he said of "Blurred Lines."

>that may be the case in terms of why the jury decided, but i
>think the nature of the arguments are also important for both
>appeals and future cases. i would say presented to a judge
>they'd come to the same verdict.

that's not how this works.

the arguments made by lawyers during opening statements and closing arguments in the case are NOT evidence. neither are the questions they ask during cross examination.

and b/c this case is jury trial decision it's not binding precedent. no judge has to follow this decision in any future case.

binding precedent that judges must follow comes from appellate cases.

fuck you.

  

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imcvspl
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103. "fair enough"
In response to Reply # 91


  

          

again i haven't been able to read the full arguments, just basing on the information i have. jury cases are a bit foreign to me in terms of future implications, but i do know something on how judges have ruled in the past specifically on sample cases, and the wording is familiar. there's been an onus on them for a long time to draw a 'bright line' on what constitutes an infringement on the heart of the music with the previous three notes as the default, but mainly because it hasn't been rigorously argued against from all the possible elements of 'fair use' (specifically transformation). whether this can be cited as a reference or not as a legal precedent is one thing but it leans in a way which is rather uncomfortable and imo will influence the next sample infringement case in terms of drawing that bright line.

and for the record i'm not just concerened with sampling. for me transformation is a fundamental process in music and needs to be clearly distinguished from blatant theft.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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SoWhat
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105. "i get you now."
In response to Reply # 103
Wed Mar-11-15 08:02 PM by SoWhat

  

          

the sampling cases to which you refer are likely appellate cases. attorney arguments to the judges in appellate cases matter. the judges base their decisions in those cases largely on what the attorneys argue. and the decisions those judges issue bind other judges in lower courts.

but jury trials aren't like that. jury decisions aren't binding on any court. they are not precedent. and the arguments the lawyers make are intended to influence and persuade the jury but that's it. the jurors are instructed that those statements and arguments aren't evidence - they're comments on the evidence.

anyway, this case isn't precedent. the impact it may have is largely on plaintiffs and lawyers. it may embolden future plaintiffs b/c they'll have lawyers willing to issue demand letters and back them up by filing lawsuits that may actually proceed beyond summary judgment. w/a case like this lawyers may believe that future juries may find infringement even where musicologists say no material that the lawyers know to be protected by a copyright at issue in the case was used. it's a roadmap for plaintiffs and plaintiffs' counsel and a cautionary tale for defendants and defense counsel. but it's not binding on judges.

fuck you.

  

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thebigfunk
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112. "thanks for explaining all of this"
In response to Reply # 105


          

Good stuff.

>the sampling cases to which you refer are likely appellate
>cases. attorney arguments to the judges in appellate cases
>matter. the judges base their decisions in those cases
>largely on what the attorneys argue. and the decisions those
>judges issue bind other judges in lower courts.
>
>but jury trials aren't like that. jury decisions aren't
>binding on any court. they are not precedent. and the
>arguments the lawyers make are intended to influence and
>persuade the jury but that's it. the jurors are instructed
>that those statements and arguments aren't evidence - they're
>comments on the evidence.
>
>anyway, this case isn't precedent. the impact it may have is
>largely on plaintiffs and lawyers. it may embolden future
>plaintiffs b/c they'll have lawyers willing to issue demand
>letters and back them up by filing lawsuits that may actually
>proceed beyond summary judgment. w/a case like this lawyers
>may believe that future juries may find infringement even
>where musicologists say no material that the lawyers know to
>be protected by a copyright at issue in the case was used.
>it's a roadmap for plaintiffs and plaintiffs' counsel and a
>cautionary tale for defendants and defense counsel. but it's
>not binding on judges.


-thebigfunk

~ i could still snort you under the table ~

  

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howardlloyd
Member since Jan 18th 2007
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Tue Mar-10-15 07:37 PM

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5. "I'm overcharging ninjas for what they did to the cold crush"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I'm happy. white folks been stealing black music for century

good for the Gaye family

everybody who heard the song thought the shit was a remake

http://howardlloyd.bandcamp.com

  

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SoWhat
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6. "But Thicke was barely involved in the song's creation."
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

That was revealed during the depositions. It was almost all Pharrell.

fuck you.

  

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howardlloyd
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Tue Mar-10-15 07:51 PM

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9. "RE: But Thicke was barely involved in the song's creation."
In response to Reply # 6
Tue Mar-10-15 07:56 PM by howardlloyd

  

          

he made the most money.

I bet his show fee double tripled or quadrupled.

he wasn't aware it was a Gaye song? that's bs

and thicke testified he wanted to jack the song. smfh

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-blurred-lines-trial-pharrell-williams-20150304-story.html

http://howardlloyd.bandcamp.com

  

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SoWhat
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10. "Thicke is ordered to pay $200K more than Pharell"
In response to Reply # 9
Tue Mar-10-15 08:47 PM by SoWhat

  

          

for damages attributed to infringement.

i think that means we have overcome. so i agree w/you. now all of the wrongs whitey has inflicted on black musicians are righted.

fuck you.

  

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dafriquan
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11. "this ruling is waay better than 40 acres and a useless mule"
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

>for damages attributed to infringement.
>
>i think that means we have overcome. so i agree w/you. now
>all of the wrongs whitey has inflicted on black musicians are
>righted.

  

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SoWhat
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12. "Dr. King saw this ruling from the mountaintop."
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

fuck you.

  

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I. Motion
Member since Jun 17th 2009
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Tue Mar-10-15 10:44 PM

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14. "lol........"
In response to Reply # 12


          

some can't think objectivity beyond their resentment

  

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howardlloyd
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21. "RE: lol........"
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

the word is objectively

if you read the article its easy as pie to see they lying through their teeth

thick said lets do something based on the marvin song...

pharrell then says he didn't have it in mind but must have been influenced by the 70s vibe??? and comes up with something that sounds just like the marvin song that thick said copy



lol

ok....

http://howardlloyd.bandcamp.com

  

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The Wordsmith
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Wed Mar-11-15 12:52 AM

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19. "All our dead Black musical heroes are REALLY gonna clean up...."
In response to Reply # 12
Wed Mar-11-15 12:53 AM by The Wordsmith

  

          

...with the royalty checks they're now gonna receive thanks to the Gaye family stickin' it to *cues echo effect* "The Man ™".



Since 1976

  

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howardlloyd
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22. "RE: All our dead Black musical heroes are REALLY gonna clean up...."
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

was that the point??? lol

steven in django ass cats

http://howardlloyd.bandcamp.com

  

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shockzilla
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Wed Mar-11-15 08:30 AM

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25. "Get the fuck out of The Lesson."
In response to Reply # 5


          

Do not come back.

  

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howardlloyd
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41. "RE: Get the fuck out of The Lesson."
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

make me

http://howardlloyd.bandcamp.com

  

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Buck
Member since Feb 15th 2005
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15. "I am pleased."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Write your own damned song, thief.

  

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shockzilla
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Wed Mar-11-15 08:32 AM

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26. "i never figured you for an idiot."
In response to Reply # 15


          

Guess I wasn't paying close enough attention?

  

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Buck
Member since Feb 15th 2005
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Wed Mar-11-15 09:09 AM

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31. "So you disagree."
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

Got it.

  

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shockzilla
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36. "with the ruling?"
In response to Reply # 31
Wed Mar-11-15 10:26 AM by shockzilla

          

and with the arseclowns supporting it?

vehemently.

i love music fiercely.

  

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Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
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16. "how many artist will d'angelo pay for "another life"?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

do sly, the p-funk collective, james brown,
prince, and rufus all get paid for black messiah?




>We're fucked.
>
>That is all.
>
>█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
>Big PEMFin H & z's
>"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1
>thing, a musician." � Miles
>
>"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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mistermaxxx08
Member since Dec 31st 2010
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17. "it was too blatant and also its really on the industry"
In response to Reply # 0


          

the real loser is the James Brown estate back in the day when everybody and there momma sampled,looped, etc.. james brown's music and didn't pay a dime. james brown should be as rich as Bill gates for all the samples turkeys did on his work back in the day.

anyway this was blatant and easy and plus everybody knows that Fakerell
and Robin Hood can't write nothing memorable between the two of them

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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shockzilla
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18. "Kellz is gonna get reamed."
In response to Reply # 17


          

  

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mistermaxxx08
Member since Dec 31st 2010
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20. "no more than Prince and any other major artist"
In response to Reply # 18


          

because if that is the case than Sly Stone and James Brown stand to coolect like bandits.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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shockzilla
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27. "both pharell and kellz have made a career of this kinda shit."
In response to Reply # 20


          

Prince has not.

  

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The Wordsmith
Member since Aug 13th 2002
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43. "True. Those Love Letter and Write Me Back albums Kellz dropped..."
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

...were chock full of 'inspired by' songs. You can easily tell which songs were influenced by specific old school artists'.


Since 1976

  

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mistermaxxx08
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55. "alright now do tell me what is the biggest R.kelly song on himself"
In response to Reply # 43


          

that he could sued over and he had to pay up half?

you can't. and yeah love letter and write me back had traces of folks who inspired him.etc.. however nobody was coming at him in court with it.

blurred lines is the biggest hit that thicke ever had and pharell knows he jacked it.

truth is if they could have given up a co credit then all would have been good. they could have avoided it.

bottom line those turkeys can't write nothing original or even that good.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
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92. "you are not alone uses same chords as "don't stop believing.""
In response to Reply # 55


  

          


seriously, play them both on piano.
he owes journey money.


>that he could sued over and he had to pay up half?
>
>you can't. and yeah love letter and write me back had traces
>of folks who inspired him.etc.. however nobody was coming at
>him in court with it.
>
>blurred lines is the biggest hit that thicke ever had and
>pharell knows he jacked it.
>
>truth is if they could have given up a co credit then all
>would have been good. they could have avoided it.
>
>bottom line those turkeys can't write nothing original or even
>that good.

  

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mistermaxxx08
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106. "or you could say that you are not alone the beat alone"
In response to Reply # 92


          

sounds like a slowed down version of "you are my lady" by freddie jackson.

however not everybody gets caught or called on it.

however this was very blatant.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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The Wordsmith
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98. "Kellz did the same thing Pharrell and Thicke did."
In response to Reply # 55


  

          

His music, like theirs, was inspired by older artists. I didn't say Kelly jacked anyone. It's obvious that he was inspired but didn't actually do a note for note copy. Same thing with Rell and Thicke. They were inspired but didn't do a note for note copy. Shockzilla even posted a site that actually shows the notes, tempo, chords, etc. of both "Got to Give it Up" and "Blurred Lines". On the site, it shows the differences in each song to where it proves the song is not a direct copy. C'mon Max, I know you know better than this. I've seen you display a thorough knowledge in music. You can't let emotions get in the way of logic on this one.




Since 1976

  

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mistermaxxx08
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51. "you got selective ears Prince jacked sly stone crazy"
In response to Reply # 27


          

there are quite a few prince songs where he would be in court over things. you just a Kellz hater.

Prince had to pay them two cats over "the Most Beautiful Girl in the world"

jacked "Faithfully" off Journey for Purple rain

jacked the glamorious life for Shelia E which was Rick Springfield's the human touch

he is a known jacker as well but anyway He still is more of a real artist than Pharell and R.Kelly is as well who can flat out write.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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30. "Again....."
In response to Reply # 0


          



people doing the happy dance over Gaye's win need to step away for a moment and understand what just happened....

There will be some serious repercussions here....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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ChampD1012
Member since Sep 27th 2003
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33. "^^^^^^^"
In response to Reply # 30


  

          

  

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howardlloyd
Member since Jan 18th 2007
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40. "RE: Again....."
In response to Reply # 30


  

          

repercussions my ass

the whole industry is set up to exploit black people and their creations. ain't no lower you can go than slavery

http://howardlloyd.bandcamp.com

  

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SoWhat
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45. "the only thing lower than slavery is the music biz, huh?"
In response to Reply # 40
Wed Mar-11-15 11:30 AM by SoWhat

  

          

>the whole industry is set up to exploit black people and their
>creations. ain't no lower you can go than slavery

then is this decision like the Emancipation Proclamation?

or is it just the end of the Fugitive Slave Act?

fuck you.

  

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howardlloyd
Member since Jan 18th 2007
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90. "lol"
In response to Reply # 45


  

          

yall dudes is furious over these guys money

http://howardlloyd.bandcamp.com

  

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SoWhat
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94. "i'd be happy if i were getting a cut of the Gaye estate like you."
In response to Reply # 90


  

          

i can only hope that you'll share some leftovers from y'all's celebratory dinner at Red Lobster.

i don't like those biscuits so don't bother saving them for me.

fuck you.

  

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mrhood75
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47. "Be sure to celebrate when David Bowie reams the James Brown estate"
In response to Reply # 40


  

          

Or when The Knack cleans up against the Michael Jackson estate.

-----------------

www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

  

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mistermaxxx08
Member since Dec 31st 2010
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67. "the industry is set up against Black people i agree"
In response to Reply # 40


          

because with all the suing the only ones collecting are the label heads and thee family and like MJ said "they don't care about us"

they made an industry within a industry of sampling,looping and killing off the black bands and cats playing on record, etc.. in order to cheapen things and they were legally allowed to pull this off.

from Hammer to now its been legalized and the only ones collecting don't look like us.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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mistermaxxx08
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59. "no it won't because Pharrell and thicke's track record"
In response to Reply # 30


          

as songwriters shows that them having a game changing career hit was a fluke or a jack.

they messed there ownselves up could have settle this out of court and given some cheese on the side and been cool, but naw they got cocky and it cost them.

blurred lines was to blatant with it and it cost them not gonna be head hunting season.

now thicke gotta prove he got something can he write a decent song ever again??

Pharrell gotta pay however "happy" lets him off the hook

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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PCProductions
Member since Oct 31st 2009
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46. "Fuck that jury"
In response to Reply # 0


          

This ruling is an awful, ominous precedent.

  

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Buck
Member since Feb 15th 2005
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Wed Mar-11-15 11:43 AM

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49. "So, hang-wringers: which songs are now in danger?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Which songs, specifically, are likely to cause their writers to be sued, and which corresponding song did said writer jack?

  

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mrhood75
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52. "Stevie Wonder - Master Blaster. The Marley family will be cashing checks..."
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uv_wZQJYlo0

-----------------

www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

  

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Buck
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61. "Chord progression, main riff, and vocal melody are all different."
In response to Reply # 52


  

          

  

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mrhood75
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64. "Wow, just like "Blurred Lines" and "Got to Give It Up"!"
In response to Reply # 61


  

          

-----------------

www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

  

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The3rdOne
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69. "^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "
In response to Reply # 64


  

          

  

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dalecooper
Member since Apr 07th 2006
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135. "BOOM. Dead. n/m"
In response to Reply # 64


  

          

--

  

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shockzilla
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74. "lol."
In response to Reply # 61


          

twat.

  

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Buck
Member since Feb 15th 2005
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75. "You're very mad, seemingly at me."
In response to Reply # 74


  

          

I wasn't on that jury. I think your anger is misplaced. But you know, be as mad as you like.

  

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shockzilla
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76. "i'm furious, actually."
In response to Reply # 75
Wed Mar-11-15 12:52 PM by shockzilla

          

correct.

and you weren't on the jury, no, so doubtlessly my ire is misdirected.

you are taking up their bullshit cause, though.

  

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SoWhat
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78. "he's getting a cut of the Gaye estate check."
In response to Reply # 76


  

          

fuck you.

  

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mrhood75
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53. "Michael Jackson - Beat It. The Knack will be rolling in dough"
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

-----------------

www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

  

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Buck
Member since Feb 15th 2005
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68. "Ditto."
In response to Reply # 53


  

          

  

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mrhood75
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70. "Nope. Qunicy Jones and MJ repeatedly said that "Beat It" was..."
In response to Reply # 68


  

          

...their version of "My Sharona." Big part of the evidence against Thicke and Pharrell was that they wanted to make a song inspired by "Got to Give It Up." Precedent. The MJ estate is gonna be paying through the nose.

-----------------

www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

  

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mrhood75
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54. "James Brown - Hot (I Need to Be Loved). David Bowie wants his cash"
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

-----------------

www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

  

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mrhood75
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56. "Midnight Star - Curious. Wonder how much the Gaye estates seeks..."
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

...this time around.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Vn--qcqxXI

-----------------

www.albumism.com

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mrhood75
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58. "Mark Ronson's "Uptown Funk" and "Feel Right.""
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

The Time are gonna eat even better. Never again have to worry about the publishing money.

James Brown can maybe make some of the cash he loses to Bowie.

-----------------

www.albumism.com

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https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

  

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double 0
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71. "RE: Mark Ronson's "Uptown Funk" and "Feel Right.""
In response to Reply # 58


          

This is not a publishing argument...

it's only copyright.. which is actually more confusing..

The Gaye's do no administer the publishing (don't think they own it either)..

Sony/ATV has both Pharrell and Marvin's publishing.. lol.. They somehow got out of the suit

Double 0
DJ/Producer/Artist
Producer in Kidz In The Hall
-------------------------------------------
twitter: @godouble0
IG: @godouble0
www.thinklikearapper.com

  

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mrhood75
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72. "LOL, I was being facetious with the "publishing" comment"
In response to Reply # 71


  

          

Mostly because I always figured the Time weren't being paid like they should all those years with Prince.

-----------------

www.albumism.com

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SoWhat
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79. "the Gayes had sued the publishing holder for not"
In response to Reply # 71


  

          

suing Thicke and Williams over BL. i think that's how the publishers got out of this suit.

fuck you.

  

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mrhood75
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60. "The JB's - The Grunt."
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

JB's estate will take another big hit courtesy of the Isley Brothers.

-----------------

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Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

  

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mrhood75
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63. "Alicia Keys - Fallin'. Another win for the James Brown estate"
In response to Reply # 49
Wed Mar-11-15 12:02 PM by mrhood75

  

          

Another chance to balance out their losses to Bowie and the Isleys.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Urdlvw0SSEc

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www.albumism.com

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https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

  

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mrhood75
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65. "The entirety of R. Kelly's Love Letter" album"
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

-----------------

www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

  

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mrhood75
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66. "The entirety of the Daptone Records catalogue"
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

-----------------

www.albumism.com

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https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

  

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Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
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80. "MJ, "the way you make me feel""
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

the entire song is one lone blues progression.
thousands of blues artist use it.




>Which songs, specifically, are likely to cause their writers
>to be sued, and which corresponding song did said writer
>jack?

  

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Buck
Member since Feb 15th 2005
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82. "I'm afraid you've missed the point."
In response to Reply # 80


  

          

>the entire song is one lone blues progression.
>thousands of blues artist use it.
>
>
>
>
>>Which songs, specifically, are likely to cause their writers
>>to be sued, and which corresponding song did said writer
>>jack?
>

  

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Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
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83. "you want links to songs that used that riff before MJ?"
In response to Reply # 82


  

          

I am at work but I can pull up a bunch of blues songs than
use it.


shit, stevie wonder's higher ground uses a version of it,
just off the top of my head.

you can sing the way you make me feel over top of it.
way easier than BL vs GTGIIU


>>the entire song is one lone blues progression.
>>thousands of blues artist use it.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>Which songs, specifically, are likely to cause their
>writers
>>>to be sued, and which corresponding song did said writer
>>>jack?
>>
>

  

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Buck
Member since Feb 15th 2005
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97. "No, man."
In response to Reply # 83


  

          

I'm not talking about three successive chords. The I, IV, and V(7) are front and center in music in all sorts of genres and eras, many long pre-dating blues (by centuries, in fact.)

I'm asking for examples in which the totality of the musical expression, or some substantial part of it, is obviously copied from some prior work.

  

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SoWhat
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85. "Ronson/Mars, 'Uptown Funk'"
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

Lakeside 'Fantastic Voyage'
Zapp, 'So Ruff So Tuff'

fuck you.

  

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SoWhat
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127. "and plus 'Funk You Up' by The Sequence."
In response to Reply # 85


  

          

fuck you.

  

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SoWhat
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87. "Ed Sheeran 'Thinking Out Loud'"
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

Marvin Gaye, 'Let's Get It On'

fuck you.

  

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SoWhat
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89. "D'Angelo, 'Another Life'"
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

Stylistics, 'You Are Everything'

fuck you.

  

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Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
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96. "all the pop songs that jack white sings in this video. "
In response to Reply # 49


  

          


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Co9mW_9hH2g



Which songs, specifically, are likely to cause their writers
>to be sued, and which corresponding song did said writer
>jack?

  

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shockzilla
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100. "'jack white'?"
In response to Reply # 96


          

uhh..

this is great fun, though.

  

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Joe Corn Mo
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101. "him too!"
In response to Reply # 100


  

          

>uhh..
>
>this is great fun, though.

  

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Pete Burns
Member since Oct 18th 2005
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115. "I *think* he means Jack Black and that is also incorrect."
In response to Reply # 100


          

  

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shockzilla
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116. "More Kangaroo Jack."
In response to Reply # 115


          

  

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Pete Burns
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117. "lol."
In response to Reply # 116


          

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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102. "Stevie Wonder's "pasttime paradise' sued for the Beatles' 'Eleanor Rigby..."
In response to Reply # 49


          

Retro artists like Lenny Kravitz would be in BIG trouble if this becomes a precedent. Almost every song he has.

  

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denny
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104. "RE: So, hang-wringers: which songs are now in danger?"
In response to Reply # 49


          

James Brown's Cold Sweat sued by Miles Davis for 'So What'.

  

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shockzilla
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73. "for those who need everything spelled out for them:"
In response to Reply # 0


          

http://joebennett.net/2014/02/01/did-robin-thicke-steal-a-song-from-marvin-gaye/

  

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murph71
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81. "RE: for those who need everything spelled out for them:"
In response to Reply # 73


          

>http://joebennett.net/2014/02/01/did-robin-thicke-steal-a-song-from-marvin-gaye/


The money quote:


"So to make a successful accusation of copyright infringement, Gaye’s side would have had to argue that the production ‘feel’ (or as the King and Ballow press release puts it, ‘choice DNA’) of ‘Got To Give It Up’ could attract copyright. Any legal action would probably have required the court (with the help of musicologists) to define exactly how this ‘choice DNA’ manifested itself in the recording, in order to discuss similarities. The act of putting an electric piano together with a cowbell and a 120BPM disco beat would need to have been judged a creative act in itself, making instrumentation and possibly even genre into protectable Intellectual Property. Which would have had massive implications for future creators of music....."

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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double 0
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86. "RE: for those who need everything spelled out for them:"
In response to Reply # 81


          

it's not though..

NONE of that was admissible in court.. This was a trial based on sheet music..

zero arrangement or production elements

Double 0
DJ/Producer/Artist
Producer in Kidz In The Hall
-------------------------------------------
twitter: @godouble0
IG: @godouble0
www.thinklikearapper.com

  

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shockzilla
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93. "and the sheet music is clearly different."
In response to Reply # 86


          

because the songs are different.

the similarities are only IN the production.

it's all so bizarre.

  

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ChampD1012
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95. "The mistake was letting a jury decide..."
In response to Reply # 93


  

          

none of those folks paid attention to anything but when they heard the audio of the songs...

  

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murph71
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99. "RE: for those who need everything spelled out for them:"
In response to Reply # 86


          

>it's not though..
>
>NONE of that was admissible in court.. This was a trial based
>on sheet music..
>
>zero arrangement or production elements


Oh yeah...I know THAT...I was posting that to refute the folks who are saying it was a direct jack of the arrangement of "GTGIU"...If u look at my other posts though I make clear that this verdict is a bit strange considering it was about sheet music....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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mistermaxxx08
Member since Dec 31st 2010
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Wed Mar-11-15 10:02 PM

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107. "Thicke also got hit because the cat never had a hit"
In response to Reply # 73


          

like that. lost without you was a medium size hit,however blurred lines is the kind of cut that can make you look like a superstar.

and as long as he has been around he never had anything close to match that.

but anyway the song puts way too many people in the frame of mind of "got to give it up" and since Pharrell is a known Jacker and THicke was high and they used that excuse well it was a open and shut case.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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mistermaxxx08
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108. "el debarge channeled and was motivated by marvin gaye"
In response to Reply # 0


          

yet El can write and is a better writer than pharrell and thicke combined.

el debarge is living proof you can be inspired and motivated by said artist and yet still do your own thing and el never hid his admiration for Marvin Gaye either.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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109. "The plot thickens"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Robin Thicke's 'Love after War' lol.

Pure rip-off of Marvin's chorus for 'After the Dance'. In the TRADITIONAL sense, notes and melodies. Shit is a lock. Took the swing and feel but didn't bother changing the melody for that one.

Noone's gonna know the truth....but I get the feeling this is just how Robin Thicke makes music. "Let's do something with so-and-so". His other single 'Magic' sounds like a proto-typical Curtis Mayfield song. He's giving the producer a directive to use a specific song for the swing and feel. Al Green or Marvin or Stevie or Curtis.....put on the song and start programming the drum track while it's playing. But then Pharrell is going a step further to engineer and arrange the instruments similarly to the source. The minimal bassline being played on the electric piano is kinda the death kneel. And then adding a dance party bg ambience too?

The lesson consensus has often emphasized that production and arrangement are INTRINSIC or inseperable from composition and songwriting. The laws and legal precedents make a strong distinction though. The laws value songwriting and composition but largely ignore production, engineering and arrangement. If you're arguing on behalf of Pharrell/Thicke....you might be implicitly saying that 'production' techniques are distinctive from songwriting and composition. Something that I think can be fairly charactized as being counter to the lessen consensus. That is....if you're not simply saying the rule is being broken, right or wrong.

In this case....'blurred lines' is deliberatively based on the Marvin song in terms of engineering and arrangement but the composition is different. The success of the lawsuit opens a massive portal. The rules are being broken. Sued when the chords and melody are different? That's a first. It's breaking the rule or 'understanding' that entertainment law has arrived at. But is the rule just to begin with?

Should we only be able to sue for songwriting and composition? Or perhaps the question becomes 'should we even be allowed to sue for composition?'

I don't want artists to get sued for copping rhythms and feels. But I've kinda changed my mind about 'Blurred Lines'. The whole Robin Thicke approach just starts to look like an artist's exercise in shaping their music around legal stipulations. 'We can re-make an Isley bros tune as long as we put a different chord progression on it'.

  

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mistermaxxx08
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118. "mariah carey did it as alicia keys and countless others"
In response to Reply # 109


          

in order to get radio play and the truth is sometimes some get caught and some don't. no real reason, however the industry is ran by lawyers
and things are controled and done as such.

thicke's problem is nobobdy cared before and it just so happens that his biggest hit put the lights on his behind.

bottom line nobody sweats a thing until it hits.

and thicke just got caught as did pharrell.

the only defense is that in order to get radio play is that you gotta have something that sounds like what is happening.

problem for thicke and pharrell is that they are jacking the oldies but goodies lot and it seems like a sure fire short cut to hit and yet the irony of it, is that older R&B acts can't get modern play, however the old school cuts still generate much interest despite how the industry has a strong case of being ageist.

the industry itself is guilty of fostering this approach and allowing it go down.

to me sampling and looping was the pre cursor to napster and file sharing,downloading, in allowing things to be out of hand and now the big boy label wants to own the song and then police what you do, even though they encourage you to sound and pattern yourself after said person or whatever is happening.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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howardlloyd
Member since Jan 18th 2007
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Thu Mar-12-15 04:19 AM

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110. "nicholas payton from two years ago [swipe]"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://nicholaspayton.wordpress.com/2013/09/13/an-open-letter-to-pharrell-williams-blurred-lines-vol-3/


Well, it’s about time Pharrell Williams has decided to speak on the issue. He was eerily quiet about it all until just recently. And now that’s he’s opened his mouth, I can throw him some of the shade I was generously giving Robin Thicke.

“I’m a huge fan of Marvin Gaye. He is a genius. He is the patriarch.”

— Pharrell Williams

Really, Pharrell? Since when did it become okay to preemptively sue our patriarchal geniuses of Black music after you knowingly stole their songs?

… Oh, never mind. I remember: Hiphop.

“If you read music, all you have to do is read the sheet music. It’s completely different.”

— Pharrell Williams

I read music, do you? And what sheet music are you talking about? From some wack publishing company that did a transcription of Marvin Gaye’s work? Since when do people learn funk tunes from sheet music? Many funk legends can’t even read music. Marvin Gaye couldn’t read or write music, yet he wrote the tune. So what does that say, really?

Pharrell goes on to say:

“ is the king of all kings, so let’s be clear about that. And we take our hats off to him, but anybody that plays music and reads music, just simply go to the piano and play the two. One’s minor and one’s major. And not even in the same key.”

Okay, Mr. Williams. You are wrong. Both of the tunes are actually in Major. The difference is that your song is just a major triad “G-B-D over G” and Gaye’s tune is in Dominant Major which means he flatted the 7th degree of the scale (G-C#-E over A), which would explain why y’all’s song sounds like Oktoberfest and Marvin’s song sounds like the Blues. And Marvin’s tune doesn’t go into minor until the bridge. If that monotonous piece of trash you call a song had a bridge, you probably would have stolen it, too. And just because you and Thicke lowered the key a whole step from A to G and removed the Blues doesn’t mean you didn’t steal it. Thicke has already admitted you did.

“Pharrell and I were in the studio and I told him that one of my favorite songs of all time was Marvin Gaye’s ‘Got to Give It Up.’ I was like, ‘Damn, we should make something like that, something with that groove.’ Then he started playing a little something and we literally wrote the song in about a half hour and recorded it.”

— Robin Thicke

So, how you have the hubris to pretend you didn’t steal it is jive.

Let me just explain a couple things to you:

1.) Sheet music may be the legal reference for copyright in the court systems of America, but it has never been the be-all end-all for Black music. A lot of our music has never been written down, it’s an oral and aural tradition passed down generation-to-generation from master to student.

2.) Many of our Kings of Kings could not read music themselves, either because they were blind or just never learned to read. Reading music is certainly helpful, but it isn’t necessary to do so to be a great musician. All that is required is that you have ears. And anyone with ears can hear that you clearly stole this song.

And to those of you who say I know nothing about Hiphop, if “Blurred Lines” is Hiphop, I don’t want to know anything about it. So let me officially go on record now and say that I hate Hiphop. There are certain artists who claim Hiphop that I dig, but Hiphop as a whole is wack. It’s a parasitic culture that preys on real musicians for its livelihood. I may not know anything about Hiphop, but I don’t have to. Without real artists and musicians like me, you’d have nothing to steal. I know enough about it all to know that.

One of the world’s most renowned producers can’t tell the difference between a minor chord and a Dominant 7th, something that you learn the first week in music theory class. It’s like a doctor not knowing the difference between your ears and your eyes. A musical illiterate has the nerve to tell people they would understand he didn’t steal Marvin’s song if they read music. And we wonder why today’s music is shit?

#BAM

http://howardlloyd.bandcamp.com

  

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shockzilla
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111. "that article is beyond retarded."
In response to Reply # 110


          

thanks for sharing it.

  

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howardlloyd
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Thu Mar-12-15 10:26 AM

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113. "RE: that article is beyond retarded."
In response to Reply # 111
Thu Mar-12-15 10:27 AM by howardlloyd

  

          

yeah besides the part where he breaks down the musical transposition and points out thicke tried to attempted to sue the gaye family first lol

you know music better than payton right?

lol

some cats ears nor brain works

http://howardlloyd.bandcamp.com

  

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shockzilla
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114. "i might not, actually."
In response to Reply # 113
Thu Mar-12-15 11:22 AM by shockzilla

          

but i understand why you would assume so.

  

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double 0
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119. "RE: that article is beyond retarded."
In response to Reply # 113


          

errr

Dude in the PREVIOUS article posted above.. transposed the music to the same key and the notes were STILL different..

"The two basslines are transcribed below. I’ve transposed ‘Blurred Lines’ into the same key as ‘Got To Give It Up’ here for ease of comparison, and notated them in A minor (no sharps or flats) partly for simplicity and partly because both basslines are built on notes of the home key’s minor pentatonic scale. This ‘normalisation’ is intended to highlight any similarities that might otherwise be disguised by transcribing ‘Blurred Lines’ in the original key – that is, I’m giving Gaye’s side the best possible chance of proving their assertion that the bassline has been copied.

When compared note for note like this, the dissimilarity is obvious. These basslines use different notes, rhythms and phrasing from each other. They’re even taken from different musical scales. Thicke’s bass notes are all taken from the mixolydian mode; the Gaye bassline is based around the pentatonic minor scale."


http://joebennett.net/2014/02/01/did-robin-thicke-steal-a-song-from-marvin-gaye/

Double 0
DJ/Producer/Artist
Producer in Kidz In The Hall
-------------------------------------------
twitter: @godouble0
IG: @godouble0
www.thinklikearapper.com

  

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howardlloyd
Member since Jan 18th 2007
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Thu Mar-12-15 02:09 PM

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120. "RE: that article is beyond retarded."
In response to Reply # 119


  

          

ima trust nick payton over somebody without his pedigree

again...his point about the preemptive suit/marvin not writing etc are all solid

http://howardlloyd.bandcamp.com

  

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The Wordsmith
Member since Aug 13th 2002
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Thu Mar-12-15 02:51 PM

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121. "You're going to trust the dude who considers the song to be...."
In response to Reply # 120


  

          

....Hip Hop even though he admitted that he doesn't know much about hip hop and despite the fact that it's not even a hip hop song?


Since 1976

  

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howardlloyd
Member since Jan 18th 2007
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Thu Mar-12-15 03:17 PM

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122. "RE: You're going to trust the dude who considers the song to be...."
In response to Reply # 121


  

          

what does that have to do with his ears/music theory/ etc?

what pharrell does is hip hop/r&b. it aint the r&b i grew up on.

payton was making the connection to hip hop because of the borrowing/sampling/interpolation/programming as opposed to playing

be serious

http://howardlloyd.bandcamp.com

  

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Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
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Thu Mar-12-15 03:39 PM

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123. "stevie wonder said it ain't the same song. "
In response to Reply # 122


  

          

also, payton is being a little bit disingenuous.
as a jazz musician, he knows that borrowing and quoting licks
is a part of music. jazz especially.

and he also knows that this isn't the same song.

he is saying that the western standard for copyright infringement is wromg.

well, that's whatever.
but the gayes should have lost this suit.


>what does that have to do with his ears/music theory/ etc?
>
>what pharrell does is hip hop/r&b. it aint the r&b i grew up
>on.
>
>payton was making the connection to hip hop because of the
>borrowing/sampling/interpolation/programming as opposed to
>playing
>
>be serious

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Thu Mar-12-15 05:06 PM

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125. "RE: stevie wonder said it ain't the same song. "
In response to Reply # 123


          


>he is saying that the western standard for copyright
>infringement is wromg.

This.

I think it's pretty obvious that this BL/GTGIU case doesn't satisfy the standard. So the jury's decision is wrong.

But at the same time....I'm wondering if artists like Robin Thicke have basically found a technical loophole that has been enabling them to act in a way that is counter to the 'spirit' of copywrite infringement laws.

The fact is.....the Marvin song isn't 'defined' by it's chords and melodies. It's defined by it's groove and sonic texture. Or more specifically, the arrangement and the engineering. That's what makes it what it is. Not it's compositional component. And that's the very part that they stole. Arguably, the 'heart' of the song.

Another angle of this debate....perhaps someone does the inverse of what Pharrel did and DOES steal the actual notes/melody and chords of GTGIU. But they completely change the engineering and arrangement. A completely different rhythm....different instruments (a cello instead of a electric piano bassline, an orchestra drum kit....a string section etc)....turn it into a sad song. Strangely, that song would be LESS recognizable as being derivitive of GTGIU than BL is. Noone would probably even notice.

I think what the problem here....and we've had this discussion in various manifestations here....is that the 'standard' for satisfying copywrite infringement is not conduscive to all genres of music. It doesn't address the 'spirit' of intention that the law is supposed to serve.

Any musician knows.....it is alot easier to use all the production techniques (arrangement and engineering) of GTGIU and simply change the chords and melodies than to do the inverse. I contend that the inverse is actually more creative and less recognizable as 'theft'....yet THAT'S the scenario that infringes the law. And artists are hip to their ability to do that....essentially ducking the intention of the law because it's not designed to address music that emphasizes production over composition.


  

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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
9766 posts
Thu Mar-12-15 05:50 PM

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126. "Why/how is it ''easier''?"
In response to Reply # 125
Thu Mar-12-15 05:51 PM by Jakob Hellberg

          

>
>Any musician knows.....it is alot easier to use all the
>production techniques (arrangement and engineering) of GTGIU
>and simply change the chords and melodies than to do the
>inverse.

Not everyone even have the access to the ability to utilize the arrangement and engineering. Meanwhile, nothing is stopping even a dude with an acoustic guitar and nothing else to do the opposite.

And I fail to understand how it is *intrinsically* more creative as well. You could argue that entire genres are based on using the same "feel" in terms of arrangement, instrumentation, tempo, "groove" etc. while the originality and distinction comes from other factors...

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
11281 posts
Thu Mar-12-15 06:30 PM

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128. "Well...."
In response to Reply # 126
Thu Mar-12-15 06:49 PM by denny

          

let's speculate as to Pharrell's process for Blurred Lines.

He loops 4 bars of it.....and starts programming drums to it while it plays. This is a very easy/effective way of getting the 'swing' of the source material. Maybe he starts by adding a hihat....adds the kick.....adds the cowbell. After awhile....he has enough elements in his drums that he can stop playing the GTGIU track. Now he has a drum bed with the swing of GTGIU.

Then he references back to GTGIU and uses the same instruments with a very similar arrangment. Upstroke electric piano playing chords on the 2 and 4. Electric piano bassline bobbing around counter to the piano upstrokes (which the analysis provided have correctly described as a rag-time or reggae style)

BUT....they change the key and decide to simply go A to E for 5 minutes. Really? That's the criteria for the authenticity of their creativity/originality? The decision to go A to E for 5 minutes? That's their saving grace?

Sorry....all the other stuff involved.....the dynamics/swing of the rhythm....the arrangement and playing style of the instruments.....the tone and type of instruments used.....that's the meat of the song. Not the fact that it's in G.

Parrell literally took everything from GTGIU but changed the chords thinking (rightfully...based on the accepted standard) that this protects him from copywrite infringement. Changing the chords is an incredibly simple task....and in the context of this particular type of song....the chord progression is basically irrelevant and an afterthought. After you have that groove....with those particular percussion instruments....with that particular use of the electric piano (bassline with countered upstrokes).....the rest is just icing.

And I'd be surprised that you wouldn't be more supportive of the jury's decision. You're view (as I understand) is that there isn't a distinction between arrangement and composition....or that arrangement IS composition....which would seem to suggest (or so I think) that you would support the jury's decision.

Edit....I forgot to consider the inverse scenario. So now....you start with GTGIU's chord structure. It's in G....then it changes to other stuff. Not gonna bother where it goes. But yah. G then a few other chords. But that's ALL you have to start with. You have to decide what rhythm to use...which percussion instruments.....which instruments.....the playing style of those intruments....the tonal qualities of those instruments (how they're mic'ed, treatment, etc).....the tempo....the mood.....etc etc etc. There's ALOT more work to do...with alot more creative decisions to be made.....yet THIS is the scenario that is traditionally illegal. I hope that makes sense.

  

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SoWhat
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Thu Mar-12-15 06:34 PM

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129. "RE: stevie wonder said it ain't the same song. "
In response to Reply # 125


  

          

>
>>he is saying that the western standard for copyright
>>infringement is wromg.
>
>This.
>
>I think it's pretty obvious that this BL/GTGIU case doesn't
>satisfy the standard. So the jury's decision is wrong.
>
>But at the same time....I'm wondering if artists like Robin
>Thicke have basically found a technical loophole that has been
>enabling them to act in a way that is counter to the 'spirit'
>of copywrite infringement laws.

no. actually what he's doing IS the spirit of copyright.

copyright doesn't exist to prevent artists from borrowing from each other or being inspired by each other - it encourages such borrowing and inspiration.

and in this case since Williams didn't use any material that was protected by the Gaye estate's copyright the use didn't violate the spirit of the copyright law as applied to the Gayes. but their lawsuit DOES violate that spirit, IMO.

>The fact is.....the Marvin song isn't 'defined' by it's chords
>and melodies. It's defined by it's groove and sonic texture.
>Or more specifically, the arrangement and the engineering.
>That's what makes it what it is. Not it's compositional
>component. And that's the very part that they stole.
>Arguably, the 'heart' of the song.

the groove and sonic texture aren't protected by a copyright owned by the Gayes. if that stuff is protected it's protected by a copyright owned by Motown/Universal - the entity that owns the sound recording. so the Gayes really had no standing to sue for the infringement the jury likely found. which is why so many of us are puzzled by the decision.

>Any musician knows.....it is alot easier to use all the
>production techniques (arrangement and engineering) of GTGIU
>and simply change the chords and melodies than to do the
>inverse. I contend that the inverse is actually more creative
>and less recognizable as 'theft'....yet THAT'S the scenario
>that infringes the law. And artists are hip to their ability
>to do that....essentially ducking the intention of the law
>because it's not designed to address music that emphasizes
>production over composition.

naw, copyright protects that stuff as far as i know.

in this case the Gayes originally sued Motown/Universal for NOT suing Thicke b/c the Gayes contended Thicke had infringed on the copyrights protecting the sound recording and the sheet music.

fuck you.

  

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Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
15139 posts
Thu Mar-12-15 10:32 PM

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130. "wholeheartedly agree."
In response to Reply # 129


  

          


>no. actually what he's doing IS the spirit of copyright.
>
>copyright doesn't exist to prevent artists from borrowing from
>each other or being inspired by each other - it encourages
>such borrowing and inspiration.
>

  

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shockzilla
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37800 posts
Thu Mar-12-15 05:05 PM

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124. "you don't have to pick anyone."
In response to Reply # 120


          

play the songs yourself on a piano.

sing them.

they're not the same.

and, fuck

now they're not even the point.

  

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amplifya7
Member since Feb 07th 2010
2989 posts
Thu Mar-19-15 08:28 AM

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131. "Gaye family now suing T.I. and anyone else tangentially related to the s..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

http://www.stereogum.com/1788302/marvin-gayes-family-now-wants-money-from-t-i-too/franchises/wheres-the-beef/

I know I should be as outraged as I am by this over something actually important...like the prison industrial complex or education system or clean water or something. But this is infuriating to me...If there was a protest for this I would go

  

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howardlloyd
Member since Jan 18th 2007
2729 posts
Thu Mar-19-15 11:15 AM

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132. "RE: Gaye family now suing T.I. and anyone else tangentially related to t..."
In response to Reply # 131


  

          

would you protest the fact that the family doesn't own the sound recording of marvins voice? or that all those black geniuses don't control their masters?

the whole system is setup for rich white guys to win...

and yall blame the exploited. smfh

http://howardlloyd.bandcamp.com

  

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amplifya7
Member since Feb 07th 2010
2989 posts
Thu Mar-19-15 04:35 PM

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133. "RE: Gaye family now suing T.I. and anyone else tangentially related to t..."
In response to Reply # 132


          

>would you protest the fact that the family doesn't own the
>sound recording of marvins voice? or that all those black
>geniuses don't control their masters?

anyone past or present who willingly signs a contract saying a label would own their sound recordings...doesn't have the legal rights to the sound recordings. people who paid for studio time, engineers, publicity, promotion, touring expenses, etc., as a business investment are the owners if thats what the agreement was.

sure, it's shitty when geniuses aren't able to leave money behind for their families. that doesn't mean you can magically override someones investment and copyright law because they are 'rich white guys' who 'don't deserve it' and families do instead

  

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howardlloyd
Member since Jan 18th 2007
2729 posts
Thu Mar-19-15 07:20 PM

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134. "RE: Gaye family now suing T.I. and anyone else tangentially related to t..."
In response to Reply # 133


  

          

sure thing buddy

http://howardlloyd.bandcamp.com

  

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