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Subject: "did jazz players invent dissonance?" Previous topic | Next topic
Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
15139 posts
Wed Feb-25-15 12:00 AM

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"did jazz players invent dissonance?"


  

          

forgive the shock title.
just needed clarity on something I read on Wikipedia.

what i think i read was that bebop musicians
started introducing weird chords and chord changes into pop songs
that hadn't been used in western music before,

and that these changes came about because bebop musicians came
out of the blues tradition, which was based on a scale system
that had the flattened third and fifth as the norm...

which is completely different from what western music
had been doing up to that point.

and based on the popularity of bebop and its offshoots,
those chords spread... and it's influence was so great
that those previously unused chords now show up in every genre
from funk to pop.




did I get that right?
if so... That's amazing .

And the idea of jazz being based on an
entirely different scale than the do re me fa sol la ti do
scale that I learned in school...

and the idea that the blues scale was not something that
came from modifying the western scale... but instead comes
from another place entirely...

that seems profound.
black americans ppl gave the world an entirely new musical vocabulary.
it affected all music that came after it.




sorta like hip hop.

did I understand what I read correctly?

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
Dissonance predates jazz and blues
Feb 25th 2015
1
the rite of spring wants to talk to you, among others.
Feb 25th 2015
2
Dissonant chords have been around as long as chords have been around.
Feb 25th 2015
3
There's lots of non-diatonic scales in European music.
Feb 25th 2015
4
i'll take these answers as a no.
Feb 25th 2015
5
I can see that argument, but it's pretty one-dimensional
Feb 25th 2015
6
RE: I can see that argument, but it's pretty one-dimensional
Feb 25th 2015
8
      This is wrong:
Feb 25th 2015
9
      to be honest I kinda tune out the theory stuff
Mar 03rd 2015
10
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consonance_and_dissonance
Feb 25th 2015
7

Call It Anything
Member since Aug 13th 2005
10951 posts
Wed Feb-25-15 01:41 AM

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1. "Dissonance predates jazz and blues"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritone#Historical_uses

  

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A Love Supreme
Member since Nov 25th 2003
3052 posts
Wed Feb-25-15 03:58 AM

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2. "the rite of spring wants to talk to you, among others."
In response to Reply # 0


          

  

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soulfunk
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Wed Feb-25-15 11:21 AM

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3. "Dissonant chords have been around as long as chords have been around."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Really, any chord which hasn't resolved yet is a dissonant chord. In baroque music a suspended forth chord (which is pretty vanilla) was considered dissonant. That forth has a leading tone in it which resolves on the major third.

There really isn't anything I would credit jazz with in terms of dissonance in a chordal approach. Jazz may have got people comfortable with hearing dissonant chords not resolve at all, but even that wasn't anything new when you consider what 20th century classical music was doing. Listen to Aaron Copeland's Piano Variations for example:

http://youtu.be/i1-vIw_M-Qg

  

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Teknontheou
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Wed Feb-25-15 11:27 AM

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4. "There's lots of non-diatonic scales in European music."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Especially Eastern and Southern Europe.

  

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Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
15139 posts
Wed Feb-25-15 11:31 AM

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5. "i'll take these answers as a no. "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

thanks for replying. (That's not snark.)

  

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lonesome_d
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Wed Feb-25-15 02:08 PM

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6. "I can see that argument, but it's pretty one-dimensional"
In response to Reply # 0


          


>what i think i read was that bebop musicians
>started introducing weird chords and chord changes into pop
>songs
>that hadn't been used in western music before,

I think where you're most wrong wrong is that "western music" should be "American pop music."

But even that's sort of disingenuous.

>and that these changes came about because bebop musicians came
>
>out of the blues tradition,

Yeah... nope.

I'm no jazz historian an there was certainly plenty of overlap between 'jazz' and 'blues' music and musicians. But claiming that bebop musicians "came out of the blues tradition" at all, let alone moreso than the jazz musicians that predate them, isn't accurate.

One thing that's generally overlooked in these kinds of statements is that 'the blues tradition' wasn't really 'the blues tradition' at that point in history... 'the blues' was really no more than 50 years old max at the time bebop was born, and had evolved rapidly for most of that time.

>which was based on a scale system
>that had the flattened third and fifth as the norm...

okay... commonly known as 'the blues scale'*

>which is completely different from what western music
>had been doing up to that point.

no.

I can't say whether this scale was use in Western classical music but as Teknontheou pointed out it is not at all uncommon in various Euro vernacular musics, in addition to certain Western African vernacular musics, especially those informed by Arabic culture, and Middle Eastern musics (which understandably may not be considered Western for the purpose of this conversation).

In particular with reference to the development of this scale in Western music, the 'blues scale' was also present in British Isles vernacular music in what's come to be known as 'modal' scales, very common in balladry and also Celtic instrumental music.

It's most likely that rather than developing in isolation on reaching American shores, those commonalities combined, recombined and reinforced themselves as they emerged as major influences in developing American music of all kinds throughout the 19th century.

>and based on the popularity of bebop and its offshoots,
>those chords spread... and it's influence was so great
>that those previously unused chords now show up in every
>genre
>from funk to pop.

Hmmm... I can kind of see that a bit, but it's not like the Great American Songbook isn't aware of dissonance or complex chords.

>And the idea of jazz being based on an
>entirely different scale than the do re me fa sol la ti do
>scale that I learned in school...

I don't see it as based on a different scale at all... if anything, jazz musicians' use of the fuller capabilities inherent in the Western scale system require a greater mastery of it than in most previous musics, possibly excepting classical music composers'.

>black americans ppl gave the world an entirely new musical
>vocabulary.
>it affected all music that came after it.

That's very true several times over, regardless of everything I typed above.

>sorta like hip hop.
>
>did I understand what I read correctly?

Not sure what you read.

-------
so I'm in a band now:
album ---> http://greenwoodburns.bandcamp.com/releases
Soundcloud ---> http://soundcloud.com/greenwood-burns

my own stuff -->http://soundcloud.com/lonesomedstringband

avy by buckshot_defunct

  

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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
9766 posts
Wed Feb-25-15 03:12 PM

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8. "RE: I can see that argument, but it's pretty one-dimensional"
In response to Reply # 6


          


>between 'jazz' and 'blues' music and musicians. But claiming
>that bebop musicians "came out of the blues tradition" at all,
>let alone moreso than the jazz musicians that predate them,
>isn't accurate.

The bebop musicians primarily came out of the Big Band tradition. They had absorbed all the harmonic complexity of Big Band but were tired of being "reigned in" by the stiff arrangements and commercialism of the form. It was essentially musican-music for musicians by musicians initially-it's been said that bebop was played in private jam-sessions and after hours in clubs years before it started to appear on record as a form in itself. And of course, there are solos in big band songs by guys like Coleman Hawkins (tenor sax) and Charlie Christian (guitar) that clearly points towards bebop even if the *genre* of those songs was of course still swing or whatever...


>>which was based on a scale system
>>that had the flattened third and fifth as the norm...
>
>okay... commonly known as 'the blues scale'*
>
>>which is completely different from what western music
>>had been doing up to that point.
>
>no.
>
>I can't say whether this scale was use in Western classical
>music but as Teknontheou pointed out it is not at all uncommon
>in various Euro vernacular musics, in addition to certain
>Western African vernacular musics, especially those informed
>by Arabic culture, and Middle Eastern musics (which
>understandably may not be considered Western for the purpose
>of this conversation).
>
>In particular with reference to the development of this scale
>in Western music, the 'blues scale' was also present in
>British Isles vernacular music in what's come to be known as
>'modal' scales, very common in balladry and also Celtic
>instrumental music.
>
>It's most likely that rather than developing in isolation on
>reaching American shores, those commonalities combined,
>recombined and reinforced themselves as they emerged as major
>influences in developing American music of all kinds
>throughout the 19th century.

I don't think it's fair to just talk about the blues-scale in terms of the notes/intervals being used. If you do that, it's of course just a minor pentatonic (which as you said has been used in a lot of different musical cultures) with an added flat fifth (not sure how common *this* was though in other cultures; from what I understand, the flat fifth was added by piano-players who of course lacked the ability to bend notes to "mimic" the blue note between the fourth and the fifth).

No, I think one needs to bring up the bluenotes as well; otherwise, there's not much point in distingushing the blues-scale from a regular pentatonic.

BTW, the use of the flat fifth in bebop was quite different from how it is commonly used in blues-lines where it is frequently a chromatic passing tone between the fourth and the fifth in otherwise pentatonic melodies.

In bebop on the other hand, the prime use of the flat fifth was in the context of tritone substitutions so let's say we have a basic ii-V7-I progression, in, say, C major. The G7 chord then contains the notes G B D and F. The point of this chord from a functional standpoint is that the third and seventh (=B and F in this case) form a dissonant interval (=a flat fifth in this case) which creates tension and gets resolved by moving the B to C and F to E in the next chord.

The tritone substitution then substitues the chord with a chord one flat fifth away (bII7 I guess) and the special thing here is that this chord retains the same function as the V7 it substitutes. You still get the tense flat fifth interval between B and F but they have changed place; the B is now the seventh and the F the third and of course, you get two notes chromatic to the C major scale in the root and the fifth of the new chord (=Db and Ab; note that it was often a b5 instead though which is more diatonic since it-in this case G-is part of the major scale).

Thus, the sub chord retains the same harmonic function but it gives the soloist two notes outside of the scale to play with which adds some dissonance and freakiness while still being quite functional since Db leads nicely into C (=the root of the next chord) and Ab into G (=the third of the next chord).

Anyway, this is just one of the many type of dissonant additions bebop musicians added to give some freaky, "inside-outside" flavour to the music and it became a cliche in the runs of bebop just like some other things like for example the technique of sidestepping (=self-consciously playing a phrase a bit too flat or sharp to create tension and then play it again in the right key immediately afterwards) or targetting consonant notes with chromatic passing-tones etc.

Basically, the possibilites were endless almost BUT it was all ffirmly rooted in functional harmony and at least on record (not necessarily live) they rarely stepped "outside" for more than a tiny split-second or an 8th note or so but if you do that a lot in an improvisation, it of course sounds quite freaky compared to earlier jazz which was more purely consonant and blues-based in terms of the melodies used (note that beboppers were frequently playing blues-material too, they just spiced it up with a lot of sophistication which of course mean that blues-purists don't think it sounds authentically bluesy).

I don't know how common those particular dissonances were in other forms of music though...


Anyway, I think the most radical aspect of jazz had nothing to do with melody or harmony but rather rhythm. Especially in early jazz (I won't mention free-jazz, LOL!), it's like you get lots of instruments at the same time throwing different rhythmic patterns on top of eachother and add the elusive concept of swing to that and you had the critics at the time somewhat lazily I guess comparing the music to "african"-drum music in terms of its rhythmic qualities (BTW, it's worth pointing out that in the early days, jazz was the "theme"-music in so-called "jungle music" clubs; people really thought it sounded african and that the musicians were black didn't hurt). This however is at least partially justified by the phrasing in REALLY old jazz being largly percussive and the use of longer, "legato"-note values that came with guys like Lester Young and-duh!-Miles Davis are not too common even if someone like Louis Armstrong of course sometimes held notes for effect.

It's not a coincidence that critics started to say that jazz became more "european" when legato-phrasing became more common; it didn't fit the "african" (=percussive) stereotype...

  

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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
9766 posts
Wed Feb-25-15 04:21 PM

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9. "This is wrong:"
In response to Reply # 8


          


>the next chord) and Ab into G (=the third of the next chord).

It's of course the fifth in the nexth chord-NOT third. Whatever, it's still a chord-tone and thus highly consonant...

  

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lonesome_d
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Tue Mar-03-15 11:00 AM

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10. "to be honest I kinda tune out the theory stuff"
In response to Reply # 8


          

my actual on-paper theory is worse now than it was in Jr. High School.



>I don't think it's fair to just talk about the blues-scale in
>terms of the notes/intervals being used.

I agree, but that's where the OP was pointing, if I'm not mistaken, so why I addressed it specifically.

-------
so I'm in a band now:
album ---> http://greenwoodburns.bandcamp.com/releases
Soundcloud ---> http://soundcloud.com/greenwood-burns

my own stuff -->http://soundcloud.com/lonesomedstringband

avy by buckshot_defunct

  

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Buck
Member since Feb 15th 2005
16160 posts
Wed Feb-25-15 02:37 PM

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7. "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consonance_and_dissonance"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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