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Subject: "Is it accurate to say that Jazz takes the cake as far as sophistication?" Previous topic | Next topic
initiationofplato
Member since Nov 06th 2013
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Thu Feb-05-15 03:30 PM

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"Is it accurate to say that Jazz takes the cake as far as sophistication?"


          

Speaking for all instruments, including drums, horns, guitars, etc.

I could see guitars having an edge in Blues though. What do you think?

Overall, I think Jazz is a brilliant genre. It literally sounds like the human spirit expressing itself with a voice that truly transcends words/lyrics in every way imaginable. It is so powerful and moving that you do not need words.

To any Jazz lovers, I'd love to hear some of your favorite Jazz tunes.

~Experience is the currency of the soul.

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
i've recently changed my opinion on 'jazz'
Feb 05th 2015
1
this post perfectly illustrates the problem with the term
Feb 06th 2015
20
      African American Improvisational Music
Feb 06th 2015
26
      I'd add or replace music with traditions
Feb 06th 2015
28
      7th, 9th chords, certain progressions are the common thing that links th...
Feb 07th 2015
53
Define sophistication.
Feb 05th 2015
2
All of the above.
Feb 05th 2015
3
      Then no, not necessarily.
Feb 05th 2015
7
           I thought about this in greater depth
Feb 05th 2015
16
that is a DUH
Feb 05th 2015
4
Agreed
Feb 05th 2015
17
Jazz or Classical...BUT
Feb 05th 2015
5
It's a bit of a dumb thing to say honestly...
Feb 05th 2015
6
flirting with what i'm getting at
Feb 05th 2015
8
RE: It's a bit of a dumb thing to say honestly...
Feb 05th 2015
12
      I actually like a lot of classical music...
Feb 05th 2015
13
           I think classical music has to be experienced live
Feb 05th 2015
18
           eh
Feb 06th 2015
21
                I don't agree with this:
Feb 06th 2015
23
                     RE: I don't agree with this:
Feb 06th 2015
37
when you say 'sophisticated'
Feb 05th 2015
9
Nope, Bomb Squad Beats
Feb 05th 2015
10
no.
Feb 05th 2015
11
Look at it this way
Feb 05th 2015
14
This is precisely what I mean by sophistication:
Feb 05th 2015
15
      I could have written the same thing about motown.
Feb 06th 2015
19
           RE: I could have written the same thing about motown.
Feb 06th 2015
22
           I think its impossible to disagree with you
Feb 06th 2015
24
                1) how is improvisation sophisticated?
Feb 06th 2015
25
                Jazz is very complex
Feb 06th 2015
32
                     So you don't know what you're talking about
Feb 06th 2015
34
                          Haha, wait a minute.
Feb 06th 2015
36
                               You are Bartek...
Feb 06th 2015
38
                               Oh, hey John
Feb 06th 2015
39
                                    Come on man
Feb 06th 2015
41
                                    lol
Feb 06th 2015
43
                                         I agree that this is High-school dance shit...
Feb 06th 2015
46
                                    but you know these things already... you figured it out last week
Feb 06th 2015
44
                               no snark, do you play any instruments?
Feb 06th 2015
40
                                    RE: yeah, piano and guitar
Feb 06th 2015
42
                                    i don't even want to talk shit because you'll play victim
Feb 06th 2015
45
                                    you asked where the hostility was coming from.
Feb 06th 2015
47
                                         You sound like the thought police.
Feb 06th 2015
49
                                              you sound thoughtless.
Feb 06th 2015
50
                ehhhh, see i don't think it's less intellectual
Feb 06th 2015
27
                RE: ehhhh, see i don't think it's less intellectual
Feb 06th 2015
33
                Well, I'd say this:
Feb 06th 2015
29
                     I agree.
Feb 06th 2015
30
                     which flows back to #26
Feb 06th 2015
31
                     Nice, I think we are getting to the root of it.
Feb 06th 2015
35
                          Hendrix was a GREAT (if inconsistent) improviser...
Feb 06th 2015
48
                          RE: Nice, I think we are getting to the root of it.
Feb 07th 2015
52
                               I agree, it's pretty amazing.
Feb 08th 2015
54
absolutely
Feb 06th 2015
51

imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Thu Feb-05-15 03:34 PM

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1. "i've recently changed my opinion on 'jazz'"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

i may share later

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Fri Feb-06-15 02:28 AM

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20. "this post perfectly illustrates the problem with the term"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

(note: this has primarily been brought about by hanging with an older player, who doesn't care for the term jazz, which is a sentiment that goes back much farther with the music than i do.)

my question in this post would be what picture of jazz are we talking about. because yeah you have big band stuff which was presented with sophistication. but you also have ragtime which preceded, which was a lot more loose around the edges. cool era in the context of big band isn't as sophisticated though viewed from the perspective of be bop is, which when viewed from the perspective of hard bop unless that's viewed in the perspective of west coast, unless that's viewed in the perspective of free jazz...

but we throw this label of jazz on all of them. so its like what is jazz, or rather what is the common thing which links them all. now there's two approaches that which is from the sonic literal which can identify jazz by the rhythmic modes, syncopation and harmonic structure, which of course will only cover some, and often will spawn variations in conflict with those as a result. or you can go with an overarching thing like improvisation. but improvisation isn't unique to jazz.

there's really nothing which can be identified as jazz or not jazz because jazz is kinda like funk, it's not a sound, its an approach to playing. and that approach is damn near unqualifiable. but recognizing it as not a sound frees al of the music from the burdens of labeling, because all the labels are are a means of pre-categorizing the music which prevent a level of listening from happening.

someone says, i like jazz, jazz is sophisticated. you play them some ayler and they freak out like nah that's not jazz. no its music, very emotional music, but your preconceived notion of jazz is keeping you from appreciating that emotion from its own context. which isn't to say you have to like it, but by allowing yourself the opportunity to emotionally connect with it as a part of the lineage of jazz may open you up to the expressive power of jazz (the approach not the sound) which helps you hear the sophisticated jazz you do like with new ears.

this is a theory which can of course be expanded out beyond the realm of jazz to all modes of genrefication, the labeling to filter ones experiences of music.

to tangential off of this it's one of the things about the hip-hop approach, particularly from a digging perspective. all fo the genrefication can be thrown away because the level of listening doesn't require genre. the music speaks and muses for itself (yeah diggers got lazy and all that but... nah meen?)


█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
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Fri Feb-06-15 11:33 AM

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26. "African American Improvisational Music"
In response to Reply # 20


          

I get that there is a massive treatise to be written about the contributions of (insert your favorite demo here), but at the heart of it, that's kinda the best title

  

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imcvspl
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Fri Feb-06-15 11:53 AM

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28. "I'd add or replace music with traditions"
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

and yes this coincides with how we've been discussing it of late.


█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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amplifya7
Member since Feb 07th 2010
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Sat Feb-07-15 09:07 AM

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53. "7th, 9th chords, certain progressions are the common thing that links th..."
In response to Reply # 20


          

IMO. even ayler might not have clean sounding chord voicings, but some of the movement/progession in the bass sounds very distinctly jazz to me. i think most people who use it as a blanket term without knowing what hard bop/west cost/big band etc would probably not like 'free jazz' at all (i don't really like it much either), but they'd hear what instruments were playing and how it was mixed and still think it was jazz, even if they hated it

  

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Buck
Member since Feb 15th 2005
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Thu Feb-05-15 03:56 PM

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2. "Define sophistication."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Melodic? Harmonic? Rhythmic? Technical? Cultural?

  

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initiationofplato
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Thu Feb-05-15 03:57 PM

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3. "All of the above. "
In response to Reply # 2


          

~Experience is the currency of the soul.

  

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Buck
Member since Feb 15th 2005
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Thu Feb-05-15 04:06 PM

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7. "Then no, not necessarily."
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

The development of melody and harmony in western music is 1000+ years of increasing complexity and experimentation that shows up in all manner of genres, from classical to jazz to metal to pop.

Rhythmically, you really have to define what you mean by sophistication. Polyrhythms? Time signatures? Etc.

Technically? There are virtuosic jazz players, there are virtuosic classical players, there are virtuosic Nashville session cats. There's Art Tatum and there's Rachmaninoff. There's Pat Martino and there's Yngvie Malmsteen.

  

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initiationofplato
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Thu Feb-05-15 10:04 PM

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16. "I thought about this in greater depth "
In response to Reply # 7


          

and expressed what I meant in post #15.

~Experience is the currency of the soul.

  

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mistermaxxx08
Member since Dec 31st 2010
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Thu Feb-05-15 04:01 PM

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4. "that is a DUH"
In response to Reply # 0


          

i mean nothing is more gumbo and the whole nine than Jazz period.

you can't touch its depth and its reign and so much incredible layers and so much complexity and yet its own voice and direction. poetic and painful with all aspects.

Power

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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initiationofplato
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Thu Feb-05-15 10:05 PM

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17. "Agreed"
In response to Reply # 4


          

I feel exactly the same way and you articulated it very well.

~Experience is the currency of the soul.

  

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Anonymous
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Thu Feb-05-15 04:06 PM

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5. "Jazz or Classical...BUT"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I'm not really up on a lot of music from other parts of the world so they may very well be as sophisticated if not more.

  

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Jakob Hellberg
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Thu Feb-05-15 04:06 PM

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6. "It's a bit of a dumb thing to say honestly..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

The jazz that has the most sophisticated solos is FAR from always very sophisticated compostionally but has instead frequently been quite barebones in that regard. Likewise, the jazz with most harmonic sophistication has often been lacking rhythmically etc.

Also, I find sophistication an overrated aspect of music... and I LOVE Jazz.

I'd say classical is the most "sophisticated"... and look how boring that shit is...

  

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imcvspl
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Thu Feb-05-15 04:22 PM

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8. "flirting with what i'm getting at"
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

my question would be which 'jazz'
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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thebigfunk
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12. "RE: It's a bit of a dumb thing to say honestly..."
In response to Reply # 6


          


>I'd say classical is the most "sophisticated"... and look how
>boring that shit is...

rolling my eyes at this...

-thebigfunk

~ i could still snort you under the table ~

  

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Jakob Hellberg
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Thu Feb-05-15 06:24 PM

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13. "I actually like a lot of classical music..."
In response to Reply # 12


          

...I just think it's fun to call it boring.

Seriously, even the classical music I do like I still find a bit boring even if the positives outdo the negatives and the main reason is the almost inherent "sophistication".

There's a lot of music I like I find a bit boring; "boring" may be a negative adjective but there can be other qualities that compensate and make it less "boring" in the visceral/"feel" sense regardless of how inherently, analytically boring it may be...

  

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initiationofplato
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Thu Feb-05-15 10:09 PM

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18. "I think classical music has to be experienced live"
In response to Reply # 13


          

I understand what you mean by saying that it's fun to call it boring. It has a quality to it which is a bit too "soft", if that is the correct word. My favorite classical composers are Mozart, Beethoven, and Chopin, because I feel they stand above the "boring" and create something truly powerful and moving. There was a time where I couldn't stop listening to the 9th Symphony or Chopin's Nocturne in E Flat Op.9 No.2. I dare anyone to listen to those and call them boring.


~Experience is the currency of the soul.

  

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thebigfunk
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21. "eh"
In response to Reply # 13


          


>Seriously, even the classical music I do like I still find a
>bit boring even if the positives outdo the negatives and the
>main reason is the almost inherent "sophistication".

Again, the word "sophistication" does no work on its own.

>There's a lot of music I like I find a bit boring; "boring"
>may be a negative adjective but there can be other qualities
>that compensate and make it less "boring" in the
>visceral/"feel" sense regardless of how inherently,
>analytically boring it may be...

I *think* I understand what you're getting at, but I'm not sure because you don't really describe it much here. Doesn't matter too much --- I'm just always leery of describing an entire genre as _____. But this is probably a tangential conversation to the OP.

-thebigfunk

~ i could still snort you under the table ~

  

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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
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Fri Feb-06-15 09:24 AM

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23. "I don't agree with this:"
In response to Reply # 21


          


>Again, the word "sophistication" does no work on its own.

I mean, in a perfect world, it shouldn't do it but I kind of think the word carries certain implications; lonesome_d's somewhat depressive definition above I kind of think mirrors most peoples-including mine-first thoughts when we hear the word (essentially about tasteful balance and BTW, "balance" is another overrated aspect of music to me-I can handle the balance myself by simply choosing to listen to different types of music that delivers different things, things that are often mutually exclusive. I'm more about a horizontal balance than a vertical one).

In addition to this, I think the idea of a sophisticated person as a distinguished gentleman, presumably with a nice british accent with a taste for the finer things in life plays a part as well.

For example, music that is more forceful, physical, sweaty etc. is rarely thought of as "sophisticated". Chic is often viewed as an act that brought an increased emphasis on sophistication to disco and how did they do that? By means of tasteful string-arrangements, "mannered" singing and wearing clothes in the style of the more sophisticated past.

James Brown's music was sophisticated in many ways, yet, I'm pretty sure the adjective in the context of soul is more likely to be used in reference to Stevie or Smokey Robinson.

Dave Brubeck was viewed as a guy who brought a sense of sophistication to small-band jazz; do I even need to explain that one?

And what about Sade and the whole movement dubbed "sophisto-pop" in the 80's? I mean, come on!

And of course, there's no way in hell most people outdside of genre-fans would view the music of brutal death metal bands like Suffocation or Necrophagist as sophisticated in spite of their by most objective "pop" standards high-brow take on riff-development and songstructures...


Basically, I understand what you are going for in saying that sophistication does no work on its own but I kind of think it actually does; there's a more-or-less lexical meaning which might not be fair but still very real...

  

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thebigfunk
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37. "RE: I don't agree with this:"
In response to Reply # 23


          

>
>>Again, the word "sophistication" does no work on its own.
>
>I mean, in a perfect world, it shouldn't do it but I kind of
>think the word carries certain implications; lonesome_d's
>somewhat depressive definition above I kind of think mirrors
>most peoples-including mine-first thoughts when we hear the
>word (essentially about tasteful balance and BTW, "balance" is
>another overrated aspect of music to me-I can handle the
>balance myself by simply choosing to listen to different types
>of music that delivers different things, things that are often
>mutually exclusive. I'm more about a horizontal balance than a
>vertical one).
>
>In addition to this, I think the idea of a sophisticated
>person as a distinguished gentleman, presumably with a nice
>british accent with a taste for the finer things in life plays
>a part as well.

I get this --- by saying it does no work I primarily mean that its meaning is too loose and too contested to convey or describe anything concrete. You've given one rather specific view of what "sophisticated" means --- and I think the visual example you give of a distinguished gentleman is a good example of how problematic the word is, because it's mixing material indicators of class (or class aspirations) with music. Not to say that can't be mixed, or even shouldn't be mixed, but in this case it's a visual that I'm not sure everyone would agree with when the word is applied to music.

>For example, music that is more forceful, physical, sweaty
>etc. is rarely thought of as "sophisticated". Chic is often
>viewed as an act that brought an increased emphasis on
>sophistication to disco and how did they do that? By means of
>tasteful string-arrangements, "mannered" singing and wearing
>clothes in the style of the more sophisticated past.
>
>James Brown's music was sophisticated in many ways, yet, I'm
>pretty sure the adjective in the context of soul is more
>likely to be used in reference to Stevie or Smokey Robinson.


I'm actually with you on this and all of your other (very good) examples --- which is why I am saying that we probably shouldn't use the word, especially in trying to describe something beyond genre or beyond certain patterns.


>Basically, I understand what you are going for in saying that
>sophistication does no work on its own but I kind of think it
>actually does; there's a more-or-less lexical meaning which
>might not be fair but still very real...

I'm thinking through this now... I do think we're mostly on the same page here, but I need to think a bit.

  

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lonesome_d
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9. "when you say 'sophisticated'"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I interpret that as meaning music that takes advantage of a full range of dynamics and emotions; complex and artistic without becoming obtuse; melodic and pleasant without catering to the lowest denominator. Above all, tasteful rather than bombastic.

In which case I would argue classical is the most consistently sophisticated.

But it's almost an impossible conversation to have along genre lines.

As for favorite jazz tunes, I don't know where to begin, but may I recommend the great Slim Gaillard: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntUNRiC5-z0 - not what I would call sophisticated, but I love Slim.

-------
so I'm in a band now:
album ---> http://greenwoodburns.bandcamp.com/releases
Soundcloud ---> http://soundcloud.com/greenwood-burns

my own stuff -->http://soundcloud.com/lonesomedstringband

avy by buckshot_defunct

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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Thu Feb-05-15 05:20 PM

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10. "Nope, Bomb Squad Beats"
In response to Reply # 0
Thu Feb-05-15 05:23 PM by Buddy_Gilapagos

  

          

http://youtu.be/8PaoLy7PHwk?list=PLsm5XUxQMl30dMDd71xcGY-SQBqXu796M

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

http://blackpeopleonlocalnews.tumblr.com/

  

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thebigfunk
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Thu Feb-05-15 05:28 PM

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11. "no."
In response to Reply # 0


          

I don't think that "sophistication" has any meaning that transcends genre... and genre designations are too broad to assign any single characteristic to...

In short, you're taking two words that are far too broad to actually perform any real analytical work.

-thebigfunk

~ i could still snort you under the table ~

  

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Stringer Bell
Member since Mar 15th 2004
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Thu Feb-05-15 06:26 PM

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14. "Look at it this way"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Does good jazz consist of, comparatively speaking, the most experienced (in both technique and improvisatory practice) players around, playing with the most freedom and will to create something that is at once unique, complicated and beautiful? I'd say yes, this is exactly what jazz is: an optimal triangulation between novelty, complexity and beauty...there is music that is more of one or the other but it will sacrifice the other traits.

But does this make jazz always the most sophisticated choice for a given setting or mood? Hell no. It would never make sense to say that jazz was the most sophisticated music for every taste...only for tastes which appreciate jazz's unique position at the balanced apex of the aforementioned characteristics.

  

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initiationofplato
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Thu Feb-05-15 10:04 PM

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15. "This is precisely what I mean by sophistication:"
In response to Reply # 14


          

>Does good jazz consist of, comparatively speaking, the most
>experienced (in both technique and improvisatory practice)
>players around, playing with the most freedom and will to
>create something that is at once unique, complicated and
>beautiful?

I was trying to think of a way to articulate what I felt and you nailed it. The key factor is improvisation, and improvisation done in such a way that allows the music to become the background for the expression. The integral part is in the improvisation. When I listen to jazz, I hear many voices, some of pain, some of joy, some of suffering, and there is a pronounced pitch that is bursting, screaming, and shining through the instruments. I hear the player, and through the player I hear the voices of a generation. The instruments become the vessel which the soul/spirit speaks through.

The technical skill coupled with the improvisation is like experiencing something akin to an ocean wave crashing down on a shore. It is wild, crazy, and loud, and yet, there is a multitude of patterns which compose the seeming chaos. It is raw and unbridled.

When I speak of sophistication I am not referring to a perfect order of notes, or a perfect arrangement which has been thought out and carefully constructed. I don't think that is sophistication but mechanization.

~Experience is the currency of the soul.

  

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Joe Corn Mo
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Fri Feb-06-15 01:57 AM

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19. "I could have written the same thing about motown. "
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

and I realize they were jazz players
but that's sorta my point.

the stuff you are talking about that exists in other places
and although it is (kind of) stupid to call motown jazz,
I can't call it less sophisticated because
it delivers things that jazz (usually) doesn't.

I get that jazz players are more proficient on their instruments, generally.

I also get that jazz is (sometimes) a lot more abstract.


But I dislike the idea that certain genres or albums
are viewed as more sophisticated as a general rule.
that leads to this weird cannonist approach to music
that I hate. as if one's intelligence or value as a person is related
to which or if a particular genre of music moves you.
it turns living music into a museum of dead songs.

I dislike these types of genre battles.


it makes more sense to enjoy everything for what it is.
that's not a cop out, either.

I tried to play the sophsitication game with musical genres
and my brain broke when I started noticing that I like janet jackson's
vocal harmonies for the same reason I liked the way bill evans comped.
and if that sounds like a reach, remember that jimmy jam and terry lewis started in a funk band, and funk and jazz share similar ancestry,
and it's hard to say which one is more sophisticated, when you think about it.


I will admit you probably like jazz more than I ever will.

I will also admit that most of the music I love will never be viewed
as being just as sophisticated as jazz.

but that doesn't mean it's less nuanced.
it just won't get canonized that way by historians.

I'm fine with that.
But I think I'll always disagree with these types of posts, though.








  

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thebigfunk
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Fri Feb-06-15 08:21 AM

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22. "RE: I could have written the same thing about motown. "
In response to Reply # 19


          


>I dislike these types of genre battles.
>
>
>it makes more sense to enjoy everything for what it is.
>that's not a cop out, either.

Amen.

-thebigfunk

~ i could still snort you under the table ~

  

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initiationofplato
Member since Nov 06th 2013
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Fri Feb-06-15 11:06 AM

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24. "I think its impossible to disagree with you"
In response to Reply # 19


          

I share your perspective, however I think Jazz can be analyzed a little bit differently due to the improvisational quality it exhibits.

You're right ofcourse, a genre war is senseless. I didn't even realize that I did the same thing I usually frown upon, lol

Back to improvisation, I find that Jazz makes just a bit more room for a less intellectual expression than other genres but I know you can make a case like that for just about anything.

~Experience is the currency of the soul.

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Fri Feb-06-15 11:17 AM

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25. "1) how is improvisation sophisticated?"
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

2) what about other genre's that incorporate improvisation?

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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initiationofplato
Member since Nov 06th 2013
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Fri Feb-06-15 02:14 PM

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32. "Jazz is very complex"
In response to Reply # 25


          

A crashing wave is truly the best analogy I can come up with for how I hear it.

The technical skill required to execute great jazz is nothing short of remarkable.

The ability to improvise within the complex arrangements to accentuate the expressions is pure genius. A great Jazz player has to have command of so many musical attributes at the same time.

>2) what about other genre's that incorporate improvisation?
>

You can be more specific? Which other genre's do you see a lot of improvisation in?

~Experience is the currency of the soul.

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Fri Feb-06-15 02:21 PM

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34. "So you don't know what you're talking about"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

>A crashing wave is truly the best analogy I can come up with
>for how I hear it.

Cause this is meaningless.

>The technical skill required to execute great jazz is nothing
>short of remarkable.

What technical skills would that be?

>The ability to improvise within the complex arrangements to
>accentuate the expressions is pure genius. A great Jazz player
>has to have command of so many musical attributes at the same
>time.

You think? Can you explain those?

>>2) what about other genre's that incorporate improvisation?
>>
>
>You can be more specific? Which other genre's do you see a lot
>of improvisation in?

I'll default to Joe below.

sorry but all i hear is fairy talk with the word 'sophistication' and 'jazz' and how it makes you feel an your inability to explain that while making obtuse declarations. i'd love to take it serious, but i already know you're full of shit. but i'll continue entertaining if you can actually start saying something.


█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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initiationofplato
Member since Nov 06th 2013
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Fri Feb-06-15 02:38 PM

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36. "Haha, wait a minute."
In response to Reply # 34
Fri Feb-06-15 02:44 PM by initiationofplato

          

Where is this hostility coming from? There is really no need to get angry. We are just sharing our thoughts about music, I apologize if it came across as possessive.

>>A crashing wave is truly the best analogy I can come up
>with
>>for how I hear it.
>
>Cause this is meaningless.

Sometimes it's difficult to put artistic expression into words. That's why there's music, to say the things we feel with an instrument that there are no words for. An ocean wave is built on a multitude of unfolding patterns/layers, which hold the wave in the very shape it's in before ultimately crashing on the shore. It looks and feels chaotic, but underneath the illusion of chaos there is perfect order and physical forces affecting it.

I think Jazz exhibits a highly technical form of song writing. Not anyone can pick up a horn and start blaring, in time, on key, and with emotion. This extends to all the instruments. Playing in time is one thing, playing with swing, expressing one self, adding personal and social layers, conveying a deeper message with the human heart/soul, doing it with a technical flare which requires a great deal of skill and musical sense, are some of the examples of the layers that Jazz demonstrates. The final crash and culmination of all these elements, by an orchestra, with a player that ties it all together is like the final crash of that wave.



~Experience is the currency of the soul.

  

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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
9766 posts
Fri Feb-06-15 02:50 PM

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38. "You are Bartek..."
In response to Reply # 36


          

It carries a lot of bagage you know? Personally, I never had any beef with you outside of the best piano-players thread where you acted beyond retarded but otherwise, since I'm generally not on GD, I had no opinions for or against, I thought it was cool that you dug the Cows and Hendrix but also felt that you had a tendency to get too enthusiastic in an almost childlike manner when you discovered something new (Hendrix, punk, classical, electronic, whatever).

Anyway, even if *I* have no major beef, I understand that many others do...

  

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initiationofplato
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Fri Feb-06-15 02:58 PM

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39. "Oh, hey John"
In response to Reply # 38


          

I wonder why people get side tracked. I have been accused of being several past posters, it doesn't bother me and I never acknowledge it, because I am trying to stay on topic, but that is almost impossible around here. Things trickle down into anger and ego very quickly, and for some reason people get very defensive and start accusing you of being one person or the next. It's a pretty hilarious drama, okp.

~Experience is the currency of the soul.

  

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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
9766 posts
Fri Feb-06-15 03:21 PM

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41. "Come on man"
In response to Reply # 39


          

It's actually MUCH more difficult to "hide" ones posting style than one think. For me for example, I'm not going to pretend that I'm a "massive", notable poster or anything but I have wanted to change my username for quite some time-NOT to "start anew" or some shit like that, mind you but rather because I don't like that my posts are googleable under my *real* name. There has been some... "incidents" at work which is nothing compromising or embarassing at all. Still, it's the principle of it you know? I feel like I have to hold back a bit (not necessarily a bad thing, maybe I would be on GD talking about my love for eating pussy otherwise).

Anyway, my point is that if I started anew and decided to "hide" me being Jakob (which I would never do BTW), I'm still 100% sure that the posters-however few they might be- that know my steez would recognize me.

And you, my friend, are Bartek, alternatively an amazing impersonator. Even if you are not Bartek, people will assume you are and act accordingly, that's just the way it is.

*If* you are not Bartek, well, good luck...

  

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initiationofplato
Member since Nov 06th 2013
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Fri Feb-06-15 03:29 PM

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43. "lol"
In response to Reply # 41


          

>Anyway, my point is that if I started anew and decided to
>"hide" me being Jakob (which I would never do BTW), I'm still
>100% sure that the posters-however few they might be- that
>know my steez would recognize me.
>
>And you, my friend, are Bartek, alternatively an amazing
>impersonator. Even if you are not Bartek, people will assume
>you are and act accordingly, that's just the way it is.
>
>*If* you are not Bartek, well, good luck...

Haha, this is exactly what I was speaking about John. We are on a topic that makes as much sense to me as tits on a gold fish. I want to talk about music man, jazz specifically. Let's pretend I am whoever you think I am or want me to be, but at least let's stay on topic and have some fun doing it. I love listening to and talking about music, why does this conversation have to degrade into something best suited for a high school dance?

~Experience is the currency of the soul.

  

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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
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Fri Feb-06-15 04:03 PM

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46. "I agree that this is High-school dance shit..."
In response to Reply # 43


          

HOWEVER, this particular strain of the thread started with *you* asking "what's the hostility?" or something akin to that and while I have nothing to do with that, I kind of felt the *need* to step to the plate...

Anyway, I'll gladly continue the conversation about *music* in other strains of this thread and will do it too without any mentioning of you being Bartek because in those strains, it's not relevant...

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Fri Feb-06-15 03:51 PM

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44. "but you know these things already... you figured it out last week"
In response to Reply # 39


  

          

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=4&topic_id=12715873&mesg_id=12715873&page=6#12716094


█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
15139 posts
Fri Feb-06-15 03:08 PM

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40. "no snark, do you play any instruments?"
In response to Reply # 36


  

          

at the risk of sounding elistist,
there are ways to describe what jazz musicans do
without sayinh vauge stuff like "waves crashing on the ocean."

improvisation is about taking a musical idea (a snatch of melody,
a series of chord progressions, a rhythmic idea) and playing it
it back in a different way... building on it until it
becomes something new.

much like a rapper free styling a rhyme.


It's not easy to improvise well,
but you make it sound like magic, which is irritating.
especially when you say blues is the only other genre that has it.

Because other genres of music improvise too.
Just as much, actually.
But like jake said, it's on the micro level.
Not the macro level, like jazz.



I won't say I know more about jazz than you,
but I suspect I know more about music.

You might wanna just say that you like jazz and leave it at that.
The jazz is magic line can get.... irritating? Cloying?

Something that probably rubs (black) jazz heads the wrong way.







>Where is this hostility coming from? There is really no need
>to get angry. We are just sharing our thoughts about music, I
>apologize if it came across as possessive.
>
>>>A crashing wave is truly the best analogy I can come up
>>with
>>>for how I hear it.
>>
>>Cause this is meaningless.
>
>Sometimes it's difficult to put artistic expression into
>words. That's why there's music, to say the things we feel
>with an instrument that there are no words for. An ocean wave
>is built on a multitude of unfolding patterns/layers, which
>hold the wave in the very shape it's in before ultimately
>crashing on the shore. It looks and feels chaotic, but
>underneath the illusion of chaos there is perfect order and
>physical forces affecting it.
>
>I think Jazz exhibits a highly technical form of song writing.
>Not anyone can pick up a horn and start blaring, in time, on
>key, and with emotion. This extends to all the instruments.
>Playing in time is one thing, playing with swing, expressing
>one self, adding personal and social layers, conveying a
>deeper message with the human heart/soul, doing it with a
>technical flare which requires a great deal of skill and
>musical sense, are some of the examples of the layers that
>Jazz demonstrates. The final crash and culmination of all
>these elements, by an orchestra, with a player that ties it
>all together is like the final crash of that wave.
>
>
>
>

  

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initiationofplato
Member since Nov 06th 2013
2420 posts
Fri Feb-06-15 03:24 PM

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42. "RE: yeah, piano and guitar"
In response to Reply # 40


          

>improvisation is about taking a musical idea (a snatch of
>melody,
>a series of chord progressions, a rhythmic idea) and playing
>it
>it back in a different way... building on it until it
>becomes something new.
>
>much like a rapper free styling a rhyme.


The type of improvisation that I am speaking of is not intellectual. It can't be defined as you have. It is the point where you no longer see or hear the instrument itself, but feel what it is expressing. You hear what it is conveying as opposed to how it sounds. The player and the instrument take a back seat to the music. It is done within the "boundaries" of the song but played in such a way where it is not bound to anything that can be put down on paper.

>
>It's not easy to improvise well,
>but you make it sound like magic, which is irritating.
>especially when you say blues is the only other genre that has
>it.
>
>Because other genres of music improvise too.
>Just as much, actually.
>But like jake said, it's on the micro level.
>Not the macro level, like jazz.
>

I think it can only irritate someone if they are bound by some definition they think is the correct one. Shrug. We are sharing ideas here. I am not trying to possess the music in my own framework, I am expressing to you how I feel and see it.

>
>
>I won't say I know more about jazz than you,
>but I suspect I know more about music.
>
>You might wanna just say that you like jazz and leave it at
>that.
>The jazz is magic line can get.... irritating? Cloying?
>
>Something that probably rubs (black) jazz heads the wrong way.
>
>

Yawn.

~Experience is the currency of the soul.

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Fri Feb-06-15 03:58 PM

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45. "i don't even want to talk shit because you'll play victim"
In response to Reply # 42


  

          

you've already begun. 'oh i'm just trying to have good music discussion'

no you're not, you're trying to validate a bullshit opinion you haven't thought out very well, can't explain further, and when criticized fall back to mystical shit like:

>The type of improvisation that I am speaking of is not
>intellectual. It can't be defined as you have.

yet offer no definitions. then you go on these metaphysical rants which you don't even realize are offensive to generations of players before you:

>It is the point
>where you no longer see or hear the instrument itself, but
>feel what it is expressing. You hear what it is conveying as
>opposed to how it sounds.

To the point where your whole argument becomes non-sensical making debating it pointless:

>The player and the instrument take a
>back seat to the music. It is done within the "boundaries" of
>the song but played in such a way where it is not bound to
>anything that can be put down on paper.

Then why bother posting about it. Pick up your guitar and go to nirvana.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
15139 posts
Fri Feb-06-15 04:35 PM

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47. "you asked where the hostility was coming from."
In response to Reply # 40


  

          

I answered.

And while my definition of improvisation was incomplete,
and could not fully describe what jazz is (what definition could?)
I gave a basic definition because the way
you were talking made it sound like you might
know little about music theory.

I still think this should have been a "I love jazz" post.

You've said a number of things about improvisation
that are either half baked, or flat wrong

  

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initiationofplato
Member since Nov 06th 2013
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Fri Feb-06-15 05:21 PM

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49. "You sound like the thought police."
In response to Reply # 47


          


>I still think this should have been a "I love jazz" post.
>
>You've said a number of things about improvisation
>that are either half baked, or flat wrong
>
>

*Rolls eyes*

~Experience is the currency of the soul.

  

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Joe Corn Mo
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Fri Feb-06-15 05:27 PM

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50. "you sound thoughtless. "
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

  

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
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Fri Feb-06-15 11:48 AM

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27. "ehhhh, see i don't think it's less intellectual"
In response to Reply # 24


          

it's can be seen as more emotive, but emotion and thought aren't mutually exclusive to each other

  

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initiationofplato
Member since Nov 06th 2013
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Fri Feb-06-15 02:15 PM

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33. "RE: ehhhh, see i don't think it's less intellectual"
In response to Reply # 27


          

>it's can be seen as more emotive, but emotion and thought
>aren't mutually exclusive to each other

I think a timeless Jazz player is able to let go off the reigns a bit more, all while controlling a wild horse, so to speak.

~Experience is the currency of the soul.

  

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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
9766 posts
Fri Feb-06-15 11:55 AM

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29. "Well, I'd say this:"
In response to Reply # 24


          

I think jazz has the most sophisticated improvisations. That don't mean that other genres (including mention music from around the world) can't have sophisticated improvisations but I do feel that if we are talking about it on a macro-level and in regards to genres, I think that's a fair and quite "safe" assessment. Interested in counter-arguments though...

  

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Joe Corn Mo
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Fri Feb-06-15 12:26 PM

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30. "I agree. "
In response to Reply # 29


  

          

>I think jazz has the most sophisticated improvisations. That
>don't mean that other genres (including mention music from
>around the world) can't have sophisticated improvisations but
>I do feel that if we are talking about it on a macro-level and
>in regards to genres, I think that's a fair and quite "safe"
>assessment. Interested in counter-arguments though...


I like the way you phrased it because it accounts for the fact
that on a micro level, improvisation is everywhere.

A soul singer improvises their phrasing,
and a rhythm guitarits in a funk band
do mini improvisations to keep the forward momentum going
even when they are in the pocket.

That's the only thing I wanted to account for in my reply...
aretha franklin improvises in every line she sings... even when she
sings it "straight."

that stuff never gets mentioned when ppl have conversations about
musical geniuses in genres that aren't jazz.

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Fri Feb-06-15 12:33 PM

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31. "which flows back to #26"
In response to Reply # 30


  

          


█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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initiationofplato
Member since Nov 06th 2013
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35. "Nice, I think we are getting to the root of it."
In response to Reply # 29


          

>I think jazz has the most sophisticated improvisations. That
>don't mean that other genres (including mention music from
>around the world) can't have sophisticated improvisations but
>I do feel that if we are talking about it on a macro-level and
>in regards to genres, I think that's a fair and quite "safe"
>assessment. Interested in counter-arguments though...

I agree with you. I can't say I can think of any other genre except Blues that truly exhibits a good deal of sophisticated improvisation, but I feel it is more rare. To be honest the only real stand out candidate to me is Jimi Hendrix. The quintessential Blues musician whom played with a great Jazz players nuance. His songs were always an instrument to the expression, and that's not something you hear a lot of. Miles and Davis were supposed to collaborate on a project at the time of his death, just imagine what we would have heard if he had lived to explore Jazz with someone like Miles.


~Experience is the currency of the soul.

  

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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
9766 posts
Fri Feb-06-15 04:39 PM

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48. "Hendrix was a GREAT (if inconsistent) improviser..."
In response to Reply # 35


          

However, the problem with Jimi compared with jazz is the classical definition of "sophisticated" (=YOUR point). Whereas jazz of the bebop variety improvises on complex chord-changes where they hit the "defining" notes of the chords (alternatively the "ADD NOTES") while still spazzing out, Hendrix practically always improvised live in a more "modal" framework. Even on the songs where you have complex changes, Redding (or Cox) frequently segued into a static framework for Jimi to improvise on. Let's just say that it is not a coincidence that Jimi continued to use the relatively "simple" songs off "Are you experienced" as a root for his improvs whereas the more complex, "sophisticated" songs off "Electric Ladyland" and "Axis..." were almost completely left behind live with a few exceptions that had the modal vibe (think "oodoo Child")...

Thus, I do not think of hendrix as sophisticated by "classic"/jazz standards. Instead, Hendrix qualities as an improviser in terms of *sophistication* largely relied on his incredible ability to manipulate sound, his sense of rhythm (as opposed to melody/harmony in the cliche, tired triumvirate defining music by squares) etc. In *that* sense. Jimi was rewally closer to free-jazzers like Ayler, Shepp or (very) late Coltrane (and note that right until the end, Coltrane was a master of scales of *all* types (arabic, indian, african as well as euro and american); Hendrix used like 3 or 4)...

The thing is that jazz like that is rarely thought of as sophisticated, sophistication in jazz is *still* somewhat defined by classical standards:progressions, rhythms in terms of note-values, pauses, triplets/whatever etc. as opposed to patterns as played by a drum etc.

Anyway, Hendrix at his best was an amazing improviser and I always cringed at people who mentioned Clapton (LOL!), Duane Allman or even Jerry Garcia (who was a masterful improviser but come on!) as relevant competitors. Sophisticated though? Nah...

  

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A Love Supreme
Member since Nov 25th 2003
3045 posts
Sat Feb-07-15 03:51 AM

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52. "RE: Nice, I think we are getting to the root of it."
In response to Reply # 35


          


>I agree with you. I can't say I can think of any other genre
>except Blues that truly exhibits a good deal of sophisticated
>improvisation

DEFENITELY indian classical music.
also i've heard that bach n em used to improvise a lot. but... no recordings so...

  

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initiationofplato
Member since Nov 06th 2013
2420 posts
Sun Feb-08-15 08:26 PM

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54. "I agree, it's pretty amazing."
In response to Reply # 52


          

Ravi Shankar, Ali Akbhar Khan are incredible artists.

~Experience is the currency of the soul.

  

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Crash Bandacoot
Member since May 13th 2003
10114 posts
Fri Feb-06-15 06:43 PM

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51. "absolutely"
In response to Reply # 0


          

just to name a few:

the complete cellar door sessions
the complete on the corner sessions
bitches brew
agharta
sextant
headhunters
black saint and the sinner lady
i could go on...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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"There is much temptation to use what has worked before,
even when it may exceed its effective scope."

"Roll me further bitch"

  

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