"Live From the Writer's Bench with Grap Luva Ghost Producers" Sun Nov-09-14 02:06 PM by Kil
This week, we sit down with Grap Luva to chop it up about everything from what is ghost production, well known producers who have been linked to having ghost producers, why they need other producers to are the ghost producers themselves wrong to what's the definition of co production, does bringing records to a producer deserve production credit (Kane & Biz saying THEY produced their debut albums and not Marley Marl and Biz saying HE produced EPMD's Strictly Business cause he gave Erick the records he used) and how Grap Luva ending up getting production credit for "Half Man Half Amazing" off Pete's "Soul Survivor" album. Plus Grap breaks down the infamous debate of did Large Professor produce Reminisce for Pete Rock! But what do ya'll think? Is Kane bring the records for Long Live the Kane for Marley to sample entitle him to production credit? Or are cats like Timbo and Dre wrong for having ghost producers?
1. "BDK, Kool G & Ace have said that they had the ideas but" In response to Reply # 0
couldn't work the equipment so Marl hooked it up for them. How do we feel about that and is that a knock against Marl if that's true?
Diamond D used to give cats co-production credits for simply loaning him the album that he sampled from. How do we feel about that?
Rockwilder mentioned that he produced "Reservoir Dogs" for Jay but Erick Sermon got the credit because the check would be larger. OKP producers, are y'all cool with this? Would you do something like that if you were in that position?
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2. "RE: BDK, Kool G & Ace have said that they had the ideas but" In response to Reply # 1
I think it's hard to call on all fronts. With Kane and 'em bringing records to me it depends on if Kane told Marley I want you to use this song Blind Alley from the Emotions, here is the record...then to me that deserves co production credit. BUT let's keep this in mind too, that during those times in the mid 80's not a lot of folk in the hood had studio equipment. So most hip hop albums that were made during that time consisted of rappers and producers bringing records to a studio and having the engineer do all of the programming and the engineer didn't get production credit, the person bringing the records did. So I can understand Kane and Biz's claims that THEY produced those records. Now of course now in 2014 when anybody with an ipad has garageband and a folder full of mp3's to make beats we look at what Kane and 'em are saying as crazy but keep in mind in their days they were essentially the producer.
Now, do I look at Marley different? IF that's the way it went down on EVERY song then yeah cause half of the respect that I have for a producer is his diggin game so if I found out that Kane brought all of the records and instructed him what to do and how to do it then yeah, Marley kinda gets the black eye but if Kane and Biz just pulled u to Queensbridge with 15 crates of records and was like "Marley, see what you can find" then naw, Marley is still good money in my eyes.
And as far as would I do a "Rockwilder" move? Hell yeah! The sad part of ghost production is it's like pledging into a frat. If you wanna be in a frat, you get your ass beat. Is it right? Hell no, but if you wanna be down, it's what you've gotta do. Especially if you're a producer who's on his own and doesn't have a group or a MC to help get his music out.
3. "RE: BDK, Kool G & Ace have said that they had the ideas but" In response to Reply # 2
I think the hard part of ghost production is 90% of the time the producers never gets credits and I guess the chump change that Timbo and Dre are throwing them is better then not getting anything but it's never like any of these ghost producers ever get known. I wonder if any of these ghost producers from the 90's and 00's regret doing ghost production and just trying to get their name out there themselves. Dre just got damn near a billion dollars and he's known off of his beats that really aren't his. I wonder how his ghost producers like Mel Man feel now.
4. "RE: BDK, Kool G & Ace have said that they had the ideas but" In response to Reply # 3
>I think the hard part of ghost production is 90% of the time >the producers never gets credits and I guess the chump change >that Timbo and Dre are throwing them is better then not >getting anything but it's never like any of these ghost >producers ever get known. I wonder if any of these ghost >producers from the 90's and 00's regret doing ghost production >and just trying to get their name out there themselves. Dre >just got damn near a billion dollars and he's known off of his >beats that really aren't his. I wonder how his ghost producers >like Mel Man feel now.
Do you think Dre was using ghost producers from the jump? Like during the NWA, DOC, his debut solo and Snoop's debut album?
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>couldn't work the equipment so Marl hooked it up for them. >How do we >feel about that and is that a knock against Marl if that's >true? >
It's not a knock against Marley, because he still had to make sense of the records himself. It's not uncommon for an artist to come to the table with songs they want to sample, but it's the producer's job to make it real and give it the flavor.
>Diamond D used to give cats co-production credits for simply >loaning >him the album that he sampled from. How do we feel about >that? >
I think it's a gracious move on his part, but it's not exactly necessary.
>Rockwilder mentioned that he produced "Reservoir Dogs" for Jay >but >Erick Sermon got the credit because the check would be larger. >OKP >producers, are y'all cool with this? Would you do something >like that >if you were in that position?
Depends on how the split breaks down. If I make more money from the split than I would from putting my name on it, then that's something to think about. However me being who I am, the money wouldn't matter that much so I'd want the credit. Especially for a record like that, which most people think is the best on the album.
__________________________________________ CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!! ------------------------------------ Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this
I don't know about Dre...I know there were rumblings that Yella had a lot to do with the production but I don't know about that. When I was putting together this best of Dre mix I stop with Doggystyle cause anything after Doggystyle is up in the air in my opinion. I know with Doggystyle and Chronic Daz was saying he did jawns but my thing is if you were doing those bangers on Doggystyle & The Chronic then what the hell happened to that debut Dogg Pound album? I'll wait...to me you got all these cats saying I did this or I did that welp, if that's true why you didn't keep making bangers? That's why I believe Scott Storch cause he KEPT making bangers AFTER Dre. I think cats like Daz may have given Dre ideas and cats then AND nowadays think an idea is producing and it's not.
>I don't know about Dre...I know there were rumblings that >Yella had a lot to do with the production but I don't know >about that. When I was putting together this best of Dre mix I >stop with Doggystyle cause anything after Doggystyle is up in >the air in my opinion. I know with Doggystyle and Chronic Daz >was saying he did jawns but my thing is if you were doing >those bangers on Doggystyle & The Chronic then what the hell >happened to that debut Dogg Pound album?
That Dogg Food album was bangin fam! Now Daz solo album from 98 is another story.
>I'll wait...to me you >got all these cats saying I did this or I did that welp, if >that's true why you didn't keep making bangers? That's why I >believe Scott Storch cause he KEPT making bangers AFTER Dre. I >think cats like Daz may have given Dre ideas and cats then AND >nowadays think an idea is producing and it's not.
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8. "I do believe he did try to steal Got My Mind Made Up from Daz though" In response to Reply # 7
But as far as the "why aren't you making bangers on your own" sentiment, Dre pays people to do nothing but make music, then goes through the dozens of beats just to get two or three. If you work on your own, you tend to have to hustle harder and don't really have the time to mass produce beats like that. It's a hard thing to describe, but producers know what I'm talking about. Also a lot of these guys are under contractual shackles, and almost have to intentionally deviate from any sound they give Dre as part of the deal. You can't have a producer doing something for Dre then making their own music in the same vein without facing a lawsuit for breach of contract. That's a hard one to win in court when the guy suing you has unlimited resources.
__________________________________________ CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!! ------------------------------------ Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this
9. "RE: I do believe he did try to steal Got My Mind Made Up from Daz though" In response to Reply # 8
When you say deviate from a "sound" you gave Dre...what do you mean? For exp. was there a "sound" for Nuthin But A G Thing, Snoop's It's A Doggy Dogg World or XXplosive? I thought they were just dope beats. I could see if you're talking about session musicians cause I don't expect them to produce entire beats but Scott Storch is a great example of what I was saying...he did work with Dre...he left and kept making hits. now, of course the drug use came into his downfall but that's all I'm asking, if you can make dope beats for Dre you should be able to make dope beats dolo.
10. "Storch wasn't a ghostproducer" In response to Reply # 9
And a lot of things come into play when talking about producers making great music after working with Dre besides the perceived perception that people have about him being a magician in the studio. Those ghost producer contracts have tons of stuff in them that is designed to have the trail NOT lead back to the guy not getting credit. It may seem farfetched to some, but it really isn't. And let's not get into guys that get black balled and have no real legal Avenue to anything that anyone would notice.
__________________________________________ CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!! ------------------------------------ Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this
12. "He's credited as a coproducer on DRE" In response to Reply # 11
And keyboard work on Fast Lane. He's always said he got full credit for anything he did.
__________________________________________ CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!! ------------------------------------ Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this
14. "RE: He's credited as a coproducer on DRE" In response to Reply # 13
I guess my question for Storch would be why come out the woodwork later saying he did the tracks only to turn around and say he was always credited correctly. I mean, if you were credited correctly for playing keyboards then don't come out and say you did the whole track. To be honest, NONE of us will know unless we were really there so this is all speculation at best unless you were one of Puff's Hitmen or on Aftermath. We're just guessing at best. I heard a minute ago that Poke from the Trackmasterz said HE did Biggie's Who Shot Ya and not Nashiem Myrick. But again, why come out 15 yrs later to say that? You did one of the ILLEST hip hop records EVER for one of the best who ever did it and you just keep that to yourself for 15 yrs...to just laster say you did it? Lol...I'm confused. Has Marley ever responded to any of the claims against him?
15. "with ghostproducers there's legal ramifications for telling" In response to Reply # 14
what you produced. If you come out and say you did something, you're going to be hit with a suit for whatever amount is in the contract (most likely a figure the guy can't pay off) and the loss of future opportunity to not be able to say you created something is squandered. If there's a coproduction thing happening, things can get murky especially when drug use is involved.
__________________________________________ CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!! ------------------------------------ Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this
16. "RE: with ghostproducers there's legal ramifications for telling" In response to Reply # 15
So is it some statute of limitations in the contracts cause cats always seem to come out after a period of time has passed. Biz, Kane, Shan, G Rap and basically EVERYBODY in the Juice Crew could've come out in the Source 20+ years ago but they wait til now?
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