"At what point do we anoint rappers who debuted or peaked post 2000" Tue Nov-04-14 05:01 PM by John Forte
as all-time greats?
The late 80s to mid 90s are clearly hip-hop's golden era, but a lot of the icons of that era have relatively weak discographies. I don't think it's a stretch to say that TI has a better catalog than Slick Rick, and I'd also venture that he's a better technical rapper, but it's sacrilege to say TI >> Slick Rick.
Slightly unrelated: Common is the only rapper who debuted and peaked in the 90s who doesn't get the 90's nostalgia boost. He's graded on his post-2000 output more than any other 90's emcee.
1. "RE: At what point do we anoint rappers who debuted or peaked post 2000" In response to Reply # 0
Pretty sure Kanye is anointed no?
I think he may be the only one who deserves the Mt. Rushmore face post 2000
Thing about Slick Rick is la di da di is a hip hop classic. It is in the canon for years to come.
Is "What You Know" at that level?
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4. "RE: At what point do we anoint rappers who debuted or peaked post 2000" In response to Reply # 0
>as all-time greats? > >The late 80s to mid 90s are clearly hip-hop's golden era, but >a lot of the icons of that era have relatively weak >discographies. I don't think it's a stretch to say that TI has >a better catalog than Slick Rick, and I'd also venture that >he's a better technical rapper, but it's sacrilege to say TI >>> Slick Rick. > >
What singles does Tip have on par with La Di Da Di or Children's Story?
>Slightly unrelated: Common is the only rapper who debuted and >peaked in the 90s who doesn't get the 90's nostalgia boost. >He's graded on his post-2000 output more than any other 90's >emcee.
Common is the only artist from that era putting albums out on a major label besides Nas. Com's output post Be has hurt him a little.
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>Common is the only artist from that era putting albums out on >a major label besides Nas. Com's output post Be has hurt him a >little.
The only one? I dunno about that... (Q tip for one, and arguably Jay-Z)
Also, I can't stand Common's post BE albums (actually not a fan of BE either) but i feel like i would judge them just as hard regardless of what label they're on. you think thats what gives them more relevance in the mind of heads generally? cuz that would seem kinda sad.
6. "T.I. can't carry Slick Rick's Eyepatch" In response to Reply # 0
>as all-time greats?
There is no time limit. If you come out of the gate blazing (Rakim, Nas, Wu, Biggie) then people have no problem giving props were props are due. > >The late 80s to mid 90s are clearly hip-hop's golden era, but >a lot of the icons of that era have relatively weak >discographies. I don't think it's a stretch to say that TI has >a better catalog than Slick Rick, and I'd also venture that >he's a better technical rapper, but it's sacrilege to say TI >>> Slick Rick.
What album does T.I. have that compares to "Art Of Storytelling" let alone "Great Adventures"? Slick Rick introduced a totally new style of rhyming and storytelling that people still imitate to this day. T.I. has come cool cuts but no album that's a must have and no song that is anywhere near as iconic as La Di Da Da, The Show or Children's Story. > > >Slightly unrelated: Common is the only rapper who debuted and >peaked in the 90s who doesn't get the 90's nostalgia boost. >He's graded on his post-2000 output more than any other 90's >emcee.
That's because his commercial profile increased in the 2000's. And plenty of MC's don't get any kind of nostalgia boost. Naughty By Nature, Chubb Rock, AZ among many others don't really get enough credit for their contributions IMO.
Joe Corn Mo Member since Aug 29th 2010 15139 posts
Tue Nov-04-14 11:27 PM
7. "here's why that's difficult. " In response to Reply # 0
1) early hip hop legends got "universally" accepted legend status while the market for hip hop was relatively small. legends that came later got the nod right around the time when hip hop started to become a nationwide thing. so it was easier to come to a consensus.
2) legends usually don't get to be legends until they get vetted by a group of ppl that canonize their catalogue. of course, ppl that are fans of the class of 86 won't be as accepting of the top of the class for anything that dropped during that era. mostly because they are old, but maybe, in part, because the standards for what makes one legendary is not the same.
3) that being said, it usually takes 20 yrs for ppl to go back and relisten to the old stuff to deify the greats that didn't get deified at the time. kanye will get there, if he's not there already.
luda's singles (but not his albums) will sound fresher in about 5 or 6 years when ppl in middle school, high school, or college when his stuff comes out start feeling nostalgic.
PoppaGeorge Member since Nov 07th 2004 10384 posts
Thu Nov-06-14 11:09 PM
27. "Luda got punchlines for days" In response to Reply # 16
I never gave dude much more of a listen outside of his radio singles until the "Made You Look" remix with him on it. I had to go back to see what I was missing out on 'cause dude held his own against Nas and Jada.
His shit still nice. Just gotta go past the radio singles. ---------------------------
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10. "when they do something to deserve it " In response to Reply # 0
The era of diminished returns we're in now won't be kind of these guys in about 15 years or so. Albums that are made to be *too* in the moment don't hold up over time. The day when these artists aren't on top anymore isn't something these people saw coming. And when it gets here, and the music is found lacking in comparison because of the above sentiment, they won't have a leg to stand on unless history is rewritten for them. This isn't the first time it's happened in music, either.
__________________________________________ CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!! ------------------------------------ Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this
13. "I was thinking more of Pat Boone" In response to Reply # 11 Wed Nov-05-14 01:41 PM by Garhart Poppwell
You know, a guy that didn't contribute jack shit to music but gets all the credit and money for doing so, fifty years later. But in regards to albums, Kane and G. Rap changed Hip Hop for the better and the work put in on those records still hold up amazingly well. Music doesn't have to sound cutting edge or contemporary to stand the test of time. Not many guys today can you say that about, and it goes a lot deeper than who has a song or album that you like or think is a 'personal classic.'
__________________________________________ CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!! ------------------------------------ Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this
14. "those were my examples of artists who's albums are too of the moment" In response to Reply # 13
Those dudes were old-school within 5 years of their debuts. G Rap had a bit of a renaissance, but that was short lived (and took place during what rightfully should have been his prime).
19. "I know what you meant, and it isn't accurate" In response to Reply # 14
Their primes came at a time when the industry was trying to find its footing. These guys today don't have that to worry about and while I can't take points for that, I can't give them either. It always comes back to the work. Looking at both of their careers they fell out of favor industrially, but their cultural relevancy has never waned (and you can argue it got stronger as time went by).
__________________________________________ CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!! ------------------------------------ Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this
28. "Kane & G-Rap's contributions also go further than just music catalog" In response to Reply # 13
Both of them have been incredibly influential to guys most of us would have on the Mt. Rushmore like Biggie, Jay, Nas, Em, Black Thought, etc.
They basically have, in no small part help create the blueprint for technical skill, lyricism, rapping mono-syllabic/multi-syllabic (G. Rap) and even street tales/storytelling, not to disregard Slick Rick.
Its easier to canonize greats when they are pushing boundaries, when you can point to their albums and say this shit is Definitive in the sense that it defined a new/more refined type of rap. Slick Rick's storytelling prowess alone still defines that kind of rap for people all over. NWA defines their kinda shit (word to above the law)...
That said theres only so much to say and only so many ways to say it... so innovation has always been an area of diminishing returns in the rap scene and always will be.
I will say kanye's been innovative and influential... but maybe more so through his 808s and heartbreak type shit than the other shit
24. "LOFL" In response to Reply # 23 Wed Nov-05-14 10:47 PM by Anonymous
>>Surely you don't mean the list of all-time greats. >> >>They don't even fall in the Top 50. > >But seriously, I classify them as legends based on impact, >longevity, innovation, musical integrity etc. Not based on if >I dig their music or not. >
Impact and longevity can both be negatively argued in all of their cases.
Innovation...outside of Kanye...no one on that list is there either.
And I don't even know what the fuck musical integrity is or how it's factored into this at all.
Let's be real here man...if you're counting those cats, you might as well list Hammer and Vanilla Ice up there. That's where we're at with it with these fucking clown ass MCs in 2014.
Not to mention Doe Or Die is better than any album anyone on your list has ever made.
25. "I don't agree with the TI and Slick Rick argument..." In response to Reply # 0
but I do agree with the general sentiment that a lot of old cats kinda get by on influence, or are grandfathered into the "legend" convo due to striking when the iron was hot, even though their actual musical output was relatively weak. Slick Rick isn't one of them though.
29. "there was a post similar to this a few years back..." In response to Reply # 0
slick rick performed at a brooklyn nets half-time show and got boo'd off-stage.
the OP suggested that rappers who would've been popular in the early 2000's would have been more appropriate to have been utilized as the token "old school" act rather than perpetually trotting out acts who were "old school" in the 1990's year after year to diminishing fan interest.
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