Elvin Jones is the GOAT drummer.

This is a fact. Sure we may all have different favorites, but at the end of the day we can all accept this fact, even 15 right?

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

but I still wanna participate in the discussion.
in my life, i've never heard anybody drum better than prince.

just because he always has that groove.
is my opinion laughable among ppl that know drummers?

He didn't rank in ROlling Stones 100 greatest guitarist and I was appalled and yet, I know I know nothing about great guitarist.

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

http://www.tumblr.com/blog/blackpeopleonlocalnews

>in my life, i've never heard anybody drum better than prince.
>
>
>just because he always has that groove.
>is my opinion laughable among ppl that know drummers?

I think Prince's drumming (electronic and otherwise) is distinctive, and in some cases superlative.

I haven't heard a lot of his released music that showed the kind of range I've seen in some other drummers, but what I have heard of Prince I'm good with him at least having a rank.

I have my favorites (and they are studio drummers) but I would think the GOAT drummer would have to come out of jazz, as that's where you have the opportunity to hear the instrument bend beyond merely keeping time or a groove (not like that is unimportant, mind you)

Stevie wonder is my favorite drummer.
not prince.

although prince is no slouch.
moreso for his programming than on the skins.

but yeah.
Stevie wonder is my favorite drummer.


Stevie.

that's fucked up man.

lol

...is much more of a jazz drummer.

He ain't Prince with the programming, but he's no slouch (I much liked his '80s tracks programmed, but it had NOTHING on his live played drums)

listen to stuff like "Sugar", aforementioned "Seems So Long" (did I mention Stevie and this song in this thread?), countless others

When I was a kid I had no idea Stevie ever played drums
I think he is one of the GOAT off GP for that reason (not only playing them, but being GREAT)

Yes, I'm mad. Let's move on.

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_________
steamrollin'

i bet there are artists i've heard of that you haven't too.
it's crazy.

Elvin is not an obscure drummer by any means

do you know who Tony Williams is? or do you just ramble about Miles Davis w/o even knowing who his band members were?

_________
steamrollin'

great album.
i am a casual jazz fan and never make any statements
to indicate i know more about it than i do.

miles led me to Bill Evans and Hernie Hancock.
which makes sense, because i am a piano player.

I've not researched drummers unless they played on
pop records.

Hence, my post.

I am not a jazz encyclopedia. Never claimed to be.
I go to jazz for interesting chord changes.
The drumming is essential, but i haven't researched it.

Is this the part where you lecture me about all the musicians
i haven't learned about yet?

Where do i mail in my music snob card?




>Elvin is not an obscure drummer by any means
>
>do you know who Tony Williams is? or do you just ramble about
>Miles Davis w/o even knowing who his band members were?

if you just woulda done a google, realized who the guy is (read a fucking wikipedia article sometime) and then asked for folks to provide their favorite examples of his work because you're unfamiliar, that woulda been fine

but you did your typical "oh, i don't know who he is...but PRINCE", if you want to know more about jazz, ask...don't just be like "i don't know him BUT LET ME NAME A POP ARTIST BECAUSE THAT IS MY IDENTITY"

see through as hell.

_________
steamrollin'

and i mean that in the you've obviously been around here since before the date on this alias. but i can't figure out who the fuck you were, and why the fuck anyone should give two shits about any of your fucking opinions because of the bullshit ass way you like presenting them.

you speak with the heir of this wide depth of knowledge, but in the most shallow form possible. you take offense at something like i'ts some personal attack on your being when nobody really cares this way or that. and then there's just the stupid shit you say almost as if you want to get scoffed at.

since the time you've logged in with this alias, whatever quality musical insight you've brought to these boards has subsequently been made moot within a few posts by the most asinine style of posting i've ever seen around here. you'll get a cosign in one post and then manage to completely offend the cosigner three posts later. and all wit this tone like you're doing us a favor by your posting.

sorry man... nobody gives a fuck what you think. you're worse than bammer, now that's saying some shit.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

I can't believe Joe pissed in his cornflakes.

>I can't believe Joe pissed in his cornflakes.


more dismissive,
more condescending,
etc.

it must be something i said there.
i dunno.

and your favorite criticism of others is how intolerant they are

i hate that shit

_________
steamrollin'

there's levels.

that emanates from the keyboard of "Joe Corn Mo" then fine

i'll be that, all day long

_________
steamrollin'

into an unpleasant environment.

was it worth it?

>and your favorite criticism of others is how intolerant they
>are

why are you acting like "them"

i'll chill, promise

i lurk over in GD and probably let some of the shit i wanted to say to him there leak into this "music" discussion

_________
steamrollin'

fuck all that noise.

.

like two years ago?

-------
so I'm in a band now:
album ---> http://greenwoodburns.bandcamp.com/releases
Soundcloud ---> http://soundcloud.com/greenwood-burns

my own stuff -->http://soundcloud.com/lonesomedstringband

avy by buckshot_defunct

which is the early 90's

and even then i would've known better than to name drop fucking Purple Boy in a discussion about Elvin Jones

i also didn't run around talking about jazz in Joe's typical smarmy self-absorbed tone when i was in over my head or, rather than observing and reading the "discussion" tell the whole board that "oh i'm not qualified to discuss this but i really WANT TO because, well, I'M ME AND I'M SPECIAL and I WANT TO"...

but y'all come to homie's rescue, join the fan club, etc etc.

_________
steamrollin'

You'd be a much better poster if you stopped being a dick. You clearly know a good it about music and think about it in a particular way. But being a dick kinda ruins all that.

And yes, I find a good deal of humor in your 'I've had A Love Supreme since high school' justification of your attitude here.

-------
so I'm in a band now:
album ---> http://greenwoodburns.bandcamp.com/releases
Soundcloud ---> http://soundcloud.com/greenwood-burns

my own stuff -->http://soundcloud.com/lonesomedstringband

avy by buckshot_defunct

_________
steamrollin'

because you are clearly knowledgeable and passionate about music

but, yeah

_________
steamrollin'

Good eye. Damn. I guess we'll have to get used to this guy again.

besides the title holder for "longest running poster in the lesson who still thinks his shit doesn't stink"?

_________
steamrollin'

and since i'm always right....

give it a rest.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

_________
steamrollin'

at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YVOd1hK0_w - This is a clinic video. In general ho hum about these but it's always nice to see how players break what they do down to small bits and put it back together again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHulrp03qnk - Here's that played in the context of the song.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkBx9TG-iTc&t=642 - watch this whole one but this should jump to him during a Coltrane solo. Just note how he's holding it down for Trane.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-IRNECavtI - Clip is just hilarious. Elvin shoots a white boy then pushes another one out from behind the drums to play a killer solo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNU1EbN7bjc - Nice solo at the end of this one. The intro is priceless, but also shows the transformative power of the man.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

automatically takes him out the running.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

< Live Mixshow - Thurs 11PM/EST >
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imo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8syiOwwVyY

All up there with Elvin, imo. Hard to compare because of all the different styles.

©Robert Wyatt


``they asked me what the meek would get. picture me: afraid to answer.``

http://austinato.bandcamp.com

http://www.discogs.com/lists/Favorites-of-2014/193910

His isn't a name anyone of any discipline should scoff at, if seen on a list like this. The man was absolutely amazing, it's almost like he had six more arms and three more feet.

__________________________________________
CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!!
------------------------------------
Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

Is he like the Charlie Parker of drums or something? I really am interested in learning and would like someone knowledgeable to help me understand what makes this guy a GOAT candidate. Did he change the game in a fundamental way? Is he the drummer's drummer?

He was so prolific and masterful that trying to recommend one album doesn't properly put him in his place. If you have Spotify I'd go to his page and try a few records. I prefer his work as a sideman, but his work as a band leader is pretty interesting too.

__________________________________________
CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!!
------------------------------------
Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

There is a tendency in the lesson to make everything about Prince, not necessarily referring to Joe CornMo who is a great poster in general. However, when the context is the world's greatest/best drummer and the very first post is about Prince, I mean... I think we all know that Prince is great and a genius and so on, he has to be the greatest *drummer* as well? He's a bit like the Beatles are on other forums in the Lesson...While it's refreshing that it's him rather than the Beatles, it's kind of the same problem. A certain professional writer who post here started a thread about Prince's best guitar-solos by essentially calling him better than Hendrix (well, he said Hendrix without the boring bits or something but whatever)... It gets a bit extra I must say and I can understand why it irks some people, ESPECIALLY if the post is headlined by "I need youtube clips, never heard of him" in reference to the guy who drummed with the classic Coltrane quartet.

On the other hand, Philpots problem is one he shares/shared with certain other posters in the lesson which is that it seems to be impossible to disagree with something without going into personal attacks and attacking the opponents taste and so on. While I don't have issues with philpot anymore and enjoy talking jazz with him, I've had it in the past and I have personally on purpose tried to avoid the personal attack thing over the years. If I slip (or have slipped), let me know because that's not cool IMO; I think we should discuss posts rather than posters...

As for greatest drummers, I think Tony Williams was more versatile but also more of a sum of his influences whereas the way Elvin played was more original and groundbreaking IMO so I'm not mad at the pick.

HOWEVER, Elvin was not ideal for all situations and has a tendency to steer the music into a specific groove and since his drumming is *generally* so overwhelming combined with his importance in shaping the sound of one of the most famous jazz-bands ever, there are certain records where he don't fit too well IMO. Ornette Coleman's two albums Love Call and New York is Now! on Blue Note are good examples; not saying they are BAD but I think Ornette sounded much better with pretty much all other drummers he played with; Jones was NOT ideal for that context due to him kind of forcing the "one" on Ornette who of course frequently played across barlines and was very free rhythmically. Wayne Shorter's "Ju-JU" (which is great but still...) sound so much like a Coltrane-album IMO that if it was Wayne's only album, I would have dismissed him as a clone and Jones drumming (and McTyner's piano) is kind of why I feel that way. I also don't think he was ideal for Cecil Taylor as evident by the fairly disappointing "Momentum space"-record. And I think Coltrane made a right decision to bring in Rashied Ali in his last years; while I prefer Jones of course, Ali was better for *that* direction...

Not bringing up those examples to put Elvin down or anything, just saying that his approach isn't ideal for all settings which I guess you could say about every musician; still, there are other jazz-drummers I think worked better in many different settings than Elvin did.

That said, he was absolutely amazing and a good pick IMO...

and really, i wasn't trying to make the post about prince.
literally. i meant to type stevie. still, that's the same problem and it's a fair one to raise.

although i would have thought that it was obvious
that i was trying to see whether folks that really
knew drummers felt he belonged in the conversation.

and also, i wanted clips.

how that devolved into all of that up there, i do not know.
you raise a fair point and i am not immune to doing that on occasion,
but whatever philpot is rambling on about is beyond me.

that's some GD shit, and i have no intention of
bringing that style of posting to the lesson.
i feel bad enough for bringing a certain poster back to the lesson
by making a post i came to regret several months after i made it.

...I mean, you said it yourself in this very thread, I just took it as an excuse to make a point about Prince, LOL! But yes, Stevie has about the same status here but strangely, people don't seem particularly interested in Stevie's (few) newer releases whereas everything Prince does manage to create a lot of interest here, even if most would agree that he's way past his prime as well. I think that says a lot about his status here.

>but strangely,
>people don't seem particularly interested in Stevie's (few)
>newer releases whereas everything Prince does manage to create
>a lot of interest here, even if most would agree that he's way
>past his prime as well. I think that says a lot about his
>status here.
>



1) ppl are reluctant to criticize stevie anyway.
he's blind. he's black. he represents hope to ppl. we all love him.

2) stevie fell off rather gracefully. the decline was gradual,
with his growingly infrequent releases appealing to a smaller and smaller fan base,
and without him making a big show about it.

3) prince, on the other hand, released a run of classics
and then threw a temper tantrum when black music got new gate keepers.

and if that wasn't enough, he appeared on the MTV music awards with assless chaps,
changed his name, sued his fans, started fan clubs and then abandoned them,
flooded the market with releases, i mean i could go on and on.

prince fans have beef with prince.
which makes his rabid fans fight the fans that have criticism.
all of which makes ppl troll prince fans.

plus this board is out of touch with where the mainstream is in terms of prince.
we follow his releases but for most ppl he's a legend from the 80s that
does the Super Bowl and plays purple rain at the end.

we still track his legacy, wondering whether he is ruining it or strengthening it
with every release, whereas for most ppl
his story has been written already.

much like Stevie's legacy was in tact when most of us discovered him.
maybe that's the problem. we grew up with him,
so we take his screwups more personally.

much like stones fans from the 60s are personally offended
by mick jagger's solo albums.


wait... are we still talking about prince again?
sorry about that.

the topic is best drummers.
drummers is what this post was about.

drummers.


i need a drink.

...outside of Metallica, I don't know any other act that seem to have that kind of relationship with the fans, it's quite intriguing from the perspective of someone who's not exactly a die-hard even if I love both those acts prime material.

Anyway, it was of course my fault for steering it into Prince this time and I shall end it here. Zip!

>As for greatest drummers, I think Tony Williams was more
>versatile but also more of a sum of his influences whereas the
>way Elvin played was more original and groundbreaking IMO so
>I'm not mad at the pick.
>
>HOWEVER, Elvin was not ideal for all situations and has a
>tendency to steer the music into a specific groove and since
>his drumming is *generally* so overwhelming combined with his
>importance in shaping the sound of one of the most famous
>jazz-bands ever, there are certain records where he don't fit
>too well IMO.

Here's the thing about Elvin. He has dynamics but not a lot of silence. There's always something going on in there and that's in essence what led to his groove. The genius thing about it is that it allows him to flourish at any point in the rhythm using dynamics for emphasis.

So often when players start from the notion of silence, the places wheere they can fill in become so regimented, even if the pulse grooves where they are coming from with the fills is still almost foreshadowed. Where as Elvin leaves you lingering on every hit because anyone of them can turn the phrase.

Stylistically this doesn't work in every context, primarily because of the way it draws attention to the drumming. A strong soloist can pick up this challenge to meet Elvin so that you get incredible dueted solos (with Elvin often still getting a solo of his own).

Tangent, for me this is like the essence of hip-hop. That continuous push to do better, go harder, be it driven by the drum fills in a jazz solo, or the 808 boom in a neck snapping banger, the drummer taunting you with insane runs on the hi hats, or an MC taunting you with multi syllable runs in a verse.

Just like the battle rhymer the style doesn't work on every song. It's this always attacking vibe that just doesn't work in more abstracted contexts. But with Elvin what everyone else started doing in that context was freeing up the phrasing in ways today we'd call Elvin-esque while playing more in the back so that the leaders could sit mor comfortably within the context of the performance.

Elvin would step into those contexts and while still playing good, still be playing in his mode which would often become distracting in the context.

As for the GOAT claim I think what makes him isn't necessarily the songs, though he's got a ton of killer ones, it's the impact his personal style had on the drumming world which to this day no drummer has added as significantly to the language of trap set drumming the way he has.


█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

George Suranovich, Tony Williams, Ginger Baker, Billy Cobham, Hal Blaine, Earl Palmer, Terry Bozzio, Mitch Mitchell, Michael Schrieve, John Bonham, Idris Muhammad, Roy Haynes, Jeff Porcaro, Danny Seraphine, Susie Ibarra, Cindy Blackman, Ed Thigpen, Charlie Benante, Dave Lombardo, Art Blakey, Louie Bellson, Alan White, Beau Dollar, Harold Brown, Dave Grohl, Eric Akre, Brian Chippendale, and countless others that I don't want to search for right now.




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http://i32.tinypic.com/kbewp4.gif
http://i60.tinypic.com/a59mp3.jpg

he kind of pioneered the latin rythms in a jazz setting, such as the first song on A Love Supreme. I personally favor Tony WIlliams over him.

signature pose.

I realize he probably doesn't belong on the list of established figureheads. And putting him up against the usual suspects of jazz drumming probably seems weird to everyone else. I'm sure he didn't have the impact and technical ability of the commonly recognized greats....But to my ears....he is just so incredibly unique and stylistic. In anycase....he's my fave. Keeping in mind that a personal fave is different than saying 'all time best'....I still wanted to throw his name in here.