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Subject: "Guitar effects" Previous topic | Next topic
lonesome_d
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Wed Sep-24-14 04:47 PM

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"Poll question: Guitar effects"


          

Poll result (5 votes)
When I hear heavy use of effects, I suspect it to be used to mask inferior playing (0 votes)Vote
Can be used to mask inferior playing, but can be cool anyhow (0 votes)Vote
Selection of appropriate effects is important regardless of quality of playing (3 votes)Vote
Are excellent when used right, but can't save something that would already be doomed without them (2 votes)Vote
the noisier the better (0 votes)Vote
*takes earplugs out* what? (0 votes)Vote

  

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
the choices seem to emphasize "playing" and I and some others
Sep 24th 2014
1
not necessarily
Sep 25th 2014
2
      RE: not necessarily
Sep 25th 2014
3
           I wasnb't necessarily thinking about it in terms of grit vs. gloss
Sep 25th 2014
6
Texture/Sound is king.
Sep 25th 2014
4
Interesting that you equate that develpoment with aging
Sep 25th 2014
7
I think its of two schools
Sep 25th 2014
10
      I kind of agree with your last point...
Sep 25th 2014
13
      absolutel.... oh shit, I'm late to pick up the kids from day care
Sep 26th 2014
16
I don't think so...
Sep 25th 2014
12
      Jake tells it like it is
Sep 26th 2014
15
      I agree on all your points
Sep 26th 2014
19
didn't The Edge look a right twat in It Might Get Loud?
Sep 25th 2014
5
I have no idea what you're talking about
Sep 25th 2014
8
HAHA. I didn't think he was too bad
Sep 25th 2014
11
you gonna call Edge a twat in that movie
Jan 22nd 2015
20
It depends on...
Sep 25th 2014
9
the wank factor
Sep 26th 2014
17
      I agree
Sep 26th 2014
18
love me some good wah wah and distortion...esp in rock and blues.
Sep 26th 2014
14

c71
Member since Jan 15th 2008
13956 posts
Wed Sep-24-14 04:26 PM

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1. "the choices seem to emphasize "playing" and I and some others"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

are into the whole "finished product" of a band playing.

So, for Hardcore punk (or some rare forms of heavy metal that are tolerable) I just want the whole experience to hit me and that'll probably take some effects on the guitar. That's a small percentage of what I listen to.

So, whatever a guitarist got to do to make the band's music/performance rock, I'm for him or her doing it - just make the overall thing rock I'm not going to microscope in on what the guitarist is doing - in particular for punk/hardcore or anything similar that is.

  

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lonesome_d
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Thu Sep-25-14 09:31 AM

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2. "not necessarily"
In response to Reply # 1


          

among the avenues of thought this takes me down are:
-the idea of texture/tone being as important as other elements - the idea how it sounds relative to how well it's composed or how well it's being played
-the idea that when listening to something noisy or effects laden are we more prone to appreciate it if we already know the player has chops... this doesn't really apply to the punk aesthetic, but it definitely applies to most layers of the rock aesthetic and also the jazz aesthetic. A player like Hendrix or Ayler was in control of his instrument at all times, but it can be hard to tell by listening to some the stuff that came out of it. So what makes that 'hard to tell' stuff appealing, and is there any 'because it's Hendrix/Ayler/Taylor/insert whoever here, and ew know the guy's a master regardless of what's coming out' involved in that appreciation?

Was thinking about this while letting Soundcloud run yesterday afternoon, listening to a bunch of amateurs (that's not a negative). I've grown to appreciate texture as its own value, instead of one that's reliant on other more traditional values (melody, composition, technique, etc.) I credit that in part to howisya and imcvspl, and austin as well, and in part to other musicians (ajiav among them) who like the continuum stemming from the folk revival that's my traditional comfort base but don't see any disconnect with other branches of music. Like I always liked when John Martyn used the echoplex to create crazy ambient themes built around traditional blues song, but it was a big jump for me to remove the traditional aspect of this and realize that wasn't necessarily the sole aspect drawing me in.

>So, whatever a guitarist got to do to make the band's
>music/performance rock, I'm for him or her doing it - just
>make the overall thing rock I'm not going to microscope in on
>what the guitarist is doing - in particular for punk/hardcore
>or anything similar that is.

-------
so I'm in a band now:
album ---> http://greenwoodburns.bandcamp.com/releases
Soundcloud ---> http://soundcloud.com/greenwood-burns

my own stuff -->http://soundcloud.com/lonesomedstringband

avy by buckshot_defunct

  

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c71
Member since Jan 15th 2008
13956 posts
Thu Sep-25-14 10:25 AM

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3. "RE: not necessarily"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

> this doesn't really apply to the punk
>aesthetic, but it definitely applies to most layers of the

The reason why I have to emphasize punk (and Hardcore and some "acceptable" Heavy metal) is because it is so clear that Musicians from not just the Velvet Underground and the Stooges but even Hendrix (who was in love with basic stuff like the "proto-punk" song "wild thing") and Neil Young (not just the Ramones, etc.) sort of realized rock can get too "polished".


That whole "polished" thing goes easily into examining/analyzing/promoting "texture" etc. and it's clear that lot's of people (especially critics and music snobs) want music where the whole sound experience isn't too "polished" and "controlled" and "fine-tuned" etc.


Look how people are getting all crazy over the Replacements coming back.

So, since it's clear, people (critics, snobs) love RAW UNPOLISHED, I can never really get too swayed into mainly appreciating music that is too "controlled", "polished".


I have to make mental emotional space for raw and unpolished, cause getting out of touch with that is scary.

Though I'll never be a true "lo-fi" enthusiast.

  

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lonesome_d
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Thu Sep-25-14 03:52 PM

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6. "I wasnb't necessarily thinking about it in terms of grit vs. gloss"
In response to Reply # 3


          

though I can follow what you're saying.

I do tend to prefer more 'visceral' music to music that is either studio-perfect or academic, though either CAN be interesting. Except for Steely Dan.

-------
so I'm in a band now:
album ---> http://greenwoodburns.bandcamp.com/releases
Soundcloud ---> http://soundcloud.com/greenwood-burns

my own stuff -->http://soundcloud.com/lonesomedstringband

avy by buckshot_defunct

  

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BigReg
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Thu Sep-25-14 12:59 PM

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4. "Texture/Sound is king."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

While I def. appreciate musicianship, lets be honest; it's not really a requirement for songwriting or even a good song.

As my tastes get noisier and dronier as I get older I def. appreciate effects.

  

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lonesome_d
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Thu Sep-25-14 03:53 PM

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7. "Interesting that you equate that develpoment with aging"
In response to Reply # 4


          

and I sort of do

Certainly the stereotype is that our tastes stop developing as accumulate responsibilities.

-------
so I'm in a band now:
album ---> http://greenwoodburns.bandcamp.com/releases
Soundcloud ---> http://soundcloud.com/greenwood-burns

my own stuff -->http://soundcloud.com/lonesomedstringband

avy by buckshot_defunct

  

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BigReg
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Thu Sep-25-14 04:36 PM

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10. "I think its of two schools"
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

>and I sort of do
>
>Certainly the stereotype is that our tastes stop developing as
>accumulate responsibilities.

If you are one of those music is cool types you stick to what you like eventually and find comfort in that standard chord progression. You've got all you need for the soundtrack of your life by the time you're 24 or so, why seek out Yugoslavian folk rap?

If you're a music lover, your tastes only get denser and denser as times go on. It has to; even if you appreciate what a particular artist is doing its easier to notice the influences, patterns...etc...you're forced to go to the harder heroin to get that same fix.

  

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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
9766 posts
Thu Sep-25-14 05:03 PM

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13. "I kind of agree with your last point..."
In response to Reply # 10


          

I'd also like to add that for *me*, the more responsibility and "normal" life I ahve, the more need I have for music to become a form of escape and that is best achieved with music that is impossible to use as background music; basically, the type of music that *force* you to commit. That's not to say that less dense or extreme music can't be stimulating, just that it gives you the *possibility* to use as some sort of sonic wall-paper and I don't want that too often because I *need* the music to dominate me due to my current life-situation.

Even at work, I blast some raw shit in my headphones but then again, my job requires the commitment and intelligence of a retard.

Actually, my tastes were the most mellow when I was in university-I even played Sade and Steely Dan on a regular basis and had a brief fling with "ambient" techno and Trip-hop and other downtempo/"chill"-music. While I still like that stuff (well, not so much ambient and stuff), it's not something I play too often anymore because I don't have that mindset too often; it's mostly on fridays and stuff I get a bit more mellow.

  

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lonesome_d
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Fri Sep-26-14 01:51 PM

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16. "absolutel.... oh shit, I'm late to pick up the kids from day care"
In response to Reply # 10


          

>etc...you're forced to go to the harder
>heroin to get that same fix.


what's that, kids? No, I'm not putting on Frog & Toad Are Friends again - we just listened to that yesterday!

-------
so I'm in a band now:
album ---> http://greenwoodburns.bandcamp.com/releases
Soundcloud ---> http://soundcloud.com/greenwood-burns

my own stuff -->http://soundcloud.com/lonesomedstringband

avy by buckshot_defunct

  

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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
9766 posts
Thu Sep-25-14 04:52 PM

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12. "I don't think so..."
In response to Reply # 4


          

Ideas are king. As a metal-fan, you know pretty darn well that "everyone" nowadays can achieve a heavy, crushing and "brutal" sound by having the right equipment. However, if the riffs aren't there, if the song-structures are bad etc., it doesn't matter:shit's wack. I think the core ideas are king and then the effects are there to maximize the potential.

A lot of metal in the 80's had terrible production-values with tinny, trebly guitars, young musicians not really knowing what type of distortion pedals you were "supposed" to have (especially old brazillian black/death/thrash is hilarious in that regard; I suspect the less fortunate bands used 60's fuzz-boxes and I love it) and cardboard drums and shit and yet, I dug it and still do; too many bands today rely on studio-created big sounds which has watered down the heaviness.

And if you look at Black Sabbath, Iommi didn't start to tune down and heavily distort his guitar until "Master of reality" and yet, the first two albums sound perfectly heavy. That's because heaviness doesn't really lie in effects or distortion but rather in the attack; when Iommi played a chord, Ward and Butler was right there with him giving the chord/note the "weight" it deserved by accenting and playing with *force* behind him, it's nothing sophisticated or technological about it but rather something that at the core is based on musical sympathy, interplay and above all a willingness to put fancy self-realization to rest and instead having the balls to be *primal* (not a big feat today but in the prog-rock/roots-rock/singer-songwriter era, it sure was, especially since "all" critics dismissed Sabbath as musical neanderthals).

That distortion and downtuning made the sound even doper, well, that's a given but if the riffs and the band playing them wasn't so dope, they wouldn't have amounted to shit-just look at all the lame doom and sludge bands that are a dime a dozen. Sure, lots of cool bands in those scenes as well but the hit/miss ratio is pretty low (as it is in every style of music; just saying that if texture was king, every band playing slow, heavy and crushing would be dope but they aren't).


All that said (and back to the post), I also don't like when people criticize artists that has made th effects a natural part of their vocabulary to such an extent that there's no point in separating them; I HATE when people say that about Hendrix for example; effects can be viewed as a "voice", just like a human voice which is of course based on timbre as well. Sure, effects are mass-marketed which means that "everyone" can get the "voice" but then again, a lot of vocalists have had their voice ripped off as well.

Basically, criticizing someone for the effects can be kind of like when the Damaja dismissed the importance of a voice in favour of the *sheer* sheet-music aspect which I think is ridiculous. Saying that, say, Marvin Gaye relied too much on his voice and various manners and "vocal-tics" strike me as retarded and I feel the same way when someone disses Hendrix or criticize metal bcause "those riffs wouldn't sound heavy on an acoustic" (no shit!) or whatever.

In other words, I have very conflicted opinions on this matter and I guess it depends on if I like the artist that gets criticized or not. Like, you can diss U2 or Radiohead for relying too much on texture (and in the case of U2 at least, I REALLY don't think the Edge is playing anything; it has nothing to do with skills or virtuosity, jsut that what he plays strike me as a big, wet nothing-the most unskilled musicians can still play cool shit). Say the same about Hendrix or whoever and I will get defensive, LOL!

  

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lonesome_d
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Fri Sep-26-14 01:49 PM

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15. "Jake tells it like it is"
In response to Reply # 12


          


>In other words, I have very conflicted opinions on this matter
>and I guess it depends on if I like the artist that gets
>criticized or not.

-------
so I'm in a band now:
album ---> http://greenwoodburns.bandcamp.com/releases
Soundcloud ---> http://soundcloud.com/greenwood-burns

my own stuff -->http://soundcloud.com/lonesomedstringband

avy by buckshot_defunct

  

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BigReg
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Fri Sep-26-14 02:30 PM

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19. "I agree on all your points"
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

also, ha!

>In other words, I have very conflicted opinions on this matter
>and I guess it depends on if I like the artist that gets
>criticized or not. Like, you can diss U2 or Radiohead for
>relying too much on texture (and in the case of U2 at least, I
>REALLY don't think the Edge is playing anything; it has
>nothing to do with skills or virtuosity, jsut that what he
>plays strike me as a big, wet nothing-the most unskilled
>musicians can still play cool shit). Say the same about
>Hendrix or whoever and I will get defensive, LOL!

It's just now I see musicians of all stripes carrying looper pedals on stage and triggering live effects using ipads...if you didn't consider them before effects they are 'musical' instruments of their own right.

U2 would be perfecting the art of middle aged Dad rock even if the edge was playing an acoustic. Like you said it's about ideas and alot of them are quite simple. As tech trudges on and we get easier access to easier to produce and better sounding soundscape's ingenuity will be key.


  

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shockzilla
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Thu Sep-25-14 02:42 PM

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5. "didn't The Edge look a right twat in It Might Get Loud?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

all very 'these go to eleven'.

  

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lonesome_d
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Thu Sep-25-14 03:55 PM

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8. "I have no idea what you're talking about"
In response to Reply # 5


          

but I'm always pleased to see The Edge being referred to as a right twat

but he's actually someone who's revered in certain circles as a guitar hero, and it's usually because of texture instead of chops... not really what the post is about but an interesting twist on it.

I wonder if I'd appreciate (certain records from) U2 more if I were introduced to them now.

-------
so I'm in a band now:
album ---> http://greenwoodburns.bandcamp.com/releases
Soundcloud ---> http://soundcloud.com/greenwood-burns

my own stuff -->http://soundcloud.com/lonesomedstringband

avy by buckshot_defunct

  

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BigReg
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Thu Sep-25-14 04:38 PM

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11. "HAHA. I didn't think he was too bad"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

I guess I thought the shots of him in his 'younger' years playing straight redeemed him.

Jack White was pretty insane in that doc tho...less about chops but how it showed you how much the motherfucker breathes guitar.

  

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Invisiblist
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Thu Jan-22-15 01:20 PM

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20. "you gonna call Edge a twat in that movie"
In response to Reply # 5


          

and not even mention jack white's twatness.

FOH.

Edge was great. He even played up the shit everyone hates when he was like "I'm not even playing shit, watch this." That was a GREAT moment.

  

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Kosa12
Member since Jul 19th 2006
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Thu Sep-25-14 04:32 PM

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9. "It depends on..."
In response to Reply # 0
Thu Sep-25-14 04:34 PM by Kosa12

  

          

What one means by inferior playing, coming from a purely technical "virtuoso" aspect, superior playing doesn't exactly mean its going to be a better song, and vice versa (I have some examples in mind if you want me to expand on this), I guess this means I vote green.

----------
https://93millionmilesabove.blogspot.com/
https://rateyourmusic.com/~Kosa12

  

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lonesome_d
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Fri Sep-26-14 01:53 PM

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17. "the wank factor"
In response to Reply # 9


          

>What one means by inferior playing, coming from a purely
>technical "virtuoso" aspect, superior playing doesn't exactly
>mean its going to be a better song, and vice versa (I have
>some examples in mind if you want me to expand on this), I
>guess this means I vote green.

is something I think can apply to effects as well, though not as frequently as it applies to overplaying.

-------
so I'm in a band now:
album ---> http://greenwoodburns.bandcamp.com/releases
Soundcloud ---> http://soundcloud.com/greenwood-burns

my own stuff -->http://soundcloud.com/lonesomedstringband

avy by buckshot_defunct

  

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Kosa12
Member since Jul 19th 2006
4988 posts
Fri Sep-26-14 02:23 PM

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18. "I agree"
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

one can overdo it on effects, but nothing compares to "overplaying" mainly because, when someone is overplaying, its just "in your face" if that makes any sense hahaha, I don't know any other way to explain it. It is the reason why the second Mahavishnu Orchestra was super disappointing to me....

----------
https://93millionmilesabove.blogspot.com/
https://rateyourmusic.com/~Kosa12

  

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mikediggz
Member since Dec 02nd 2003
10137 posts
Fri Sep-26-14 01:32 PM

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14. "love me some good wah wah and distortion...esp in rock and blues."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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