why do I say that?

think about where we were back in the early 90s when Uptown/MCA was doing it, Bad Boy was coming together, and New Jack Swing was in full effect. This was the beginning of HIP Hop working its influence into what R&B was, appealing to younger listeners who want to party and dance to songs over 200 bpm.

Jodeci< mary J Blige and others were proof......but at the same time your traditional, adult contemporary R&B was still well selling and was very relevant. Look at BabyFace, Early Toni, Mariah at the time, Luther and so on.......

But then the mid nineties happened. And even though Adult contemporary stars were still making money and able to tour off their old shit, more and more collabos with rappers were happening and then the style and music changed with the subject mattter staying the same. R&B artists were either embracing NEO soul(Sadiq) or hip Hop(see Bayface collaborating with the neptunes, Mariah's hip hop evolution, Bad Boy's R&B arm).....and subject matter was still about love, people were breaking up.......but the harder edge was rising.

Fast forward to now. The train has totally gone off the rail. Neo soul is still there, but on a respirator at times, there is barely any adult contemporary, R&B singers curse on the regular and have lost melody, and look at the lyrical content. No vulnerability, songs are sung about topics that were typically left for rappers like brand name alcohol, drug dealing, and other topics. So yeah, Curtis mayfield was singing about being your "Pusherman" years ago, but peep the rest of his catalog. between the higher output that internet has led us to(remember when people would wait three years to release an album?) and the hip hop influence, I dont know if it could ever turn back around. John Legend and Robin Thicke and singing vulnerable , heartfelt songs that end up on the radio, but then you have "Good Kisser', and Chris Brown's catalog.



so, do you like the way R&B is today?

Do you agree with this statement?

Am I crazy?

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I will always argue it is money..

Hip Hop was cheaper to make more connected to the youth and something super new that everyone could cake off..

R&B at a major level is super bloated. In Hip Hop costs were super low because most of the product was easier to make

It is kinda like EDM now... an idea and a laptop and you could have a hit, a fanbase etc...
So why pay money to clear a sample or shoot a 500k-1m video when these guys can do the shit in there bedroom.

Why pay for a vocal coach if you have autotune.. etc..

However I think R&B ideas are much more interesting now because of it..

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i can agree that does figure into it.......but what about the larger acts who have just taken the swift turn? i know that the studios would have no problem spending whatever for a hit mariah album.


btw, why doesnt she see that when she came out with "We Belong Together" people finally came back to her after writing off her adult contemporary career forever?

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I would..

Mariah aint selling.. not in todays climate

"We belong together" was like the last breathe.. by 2005 Mariah had been in the game 15 years.. Jermaine dupri as well.. its not like Jermaine is dropping hits for the last 9 yrs

Also.. Mariah was always pop.. pop/r&b but definitely pop...

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>so, do you like the way R&B is today?
>




I was listening to some modern R&b a few days ago and I can see how the new stuff is pushing new methods to get kids all "rah-rah". I guess a few Beyonce songs sort of gave me a clue about the new thing but now it is clear to me.

I think it is good for a new thing to happen but it let's me know I'm too old to really be "into it". I grew up with that disco/Philly soul and matured into the Neo-Soul era and I can't pretend that producers "wil'in" with some computers and drum machines is really for me.

I'm glad they got a new thing but it would take too much work for me to try to "click" with new "R&B"



>Do you agree with this statement?
>
>Am I crazy?
>
>

Kids got to do their new thing, but once it gets "too far" new, ya gotta let them have their "new" thing and just accept you wit the "old thing".


I can still get with new pop, though, strangely. If new R&B gets more like new pop, then maybe I can get back with it.

i do notice that a lot of people who liked neo soul and such are digging either current neo soul or listening to electronic R&B(along the lines of little dragon, sza)

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You must have thought really hard to formulate such an outrageous theory.

Please, tell us more!

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why include on sarcasm? really y?

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Like...I thought you were riffing on Peggy Hill or something.

You were, like, really serious?

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We learned this stuff when they were 10. Let then learn as they will.

fuck you.

It ain't like he's a real youngblood.

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EDIT: Wait a minute. I just realized that you missed the point here too. As usual.

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then what is the point? What are all of the points that I am missing in clear english please, not okp board smarmy talk and undertones that only yall understand

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If you don't understand it, that obviously is the fundamental problem here... is it not?

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what was the point of that? why would I write that original post if I was joking?


That i dont understand, and you state that I keep missing the point. how?

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Hip Hop "died" soon as it became prominent to produce hip hop music like you would R&B

"Neo soul is still there, but on a respirator at times"
and
"there is barely any adult contemporary"

What and who are you classifying as "neo soul" and why are you saying it's on a respirator? Again, when you say there is barely any adult contemporary, who are you referring to?

To say there's no 'soul' music out there is crazy to me - just look at the current 2014 soul music post as there's clearly buckets of it.

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Neo Soul now includes the current offerings include the pioneers' current offerings (Jill, Maxwell, and John Legend as well)......adult contemporary is what Toni Braxton was when she came out, what Luther was his entire career....


who is singing songs that are "adult" meaning, not dropping brands name and cool hip terms every five seconds to sound cool. I mean like actual break up songs, actual ballads without curses every other line....


Yeah, there are a FEW artists that fall along these lines still, but is it popular R&B as it once was,....? no.

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"Popular R&B" - that's what you said, and that's what the whole post is actually referring to, but not what you said in your initial post. Your assessment of the state of R&B and soul is based on what you're hearing on the radio - would you say that was correct?

If you really want me to provide a list of R&B and soul acts right now who are providing solid quality music then I will be happy to do so but if you're specifically talking about what you're hearing on the radio, then why in this day and age would you constrict your listening to that?

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but whether we like it or not, notice it or not......it does influence to some extent what these indie artists that we cherish go after.........there arent a mass of Meshell imitaters ready to carry here sound to another generation for a reason. in some act or the other, everybody caters

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Thats the problem with pop culture criticism when presented by our generation.
Assuming you were born in (either) the late '70s or the '80s, your assessment (like most of us) can't grasp a point of reference beyond contemporary trends.
We blamed Diddy.
We blamed (southern) Crunk.
We blamed reality tv.
Some of us even blamed fabrications of popular hysteria (i.e. "the illuminati").

"Soul music" went through changes long before many of us (even I) were old enough to be left home alone.

At the very least, soul music suffered significantly when the crack epidemic hit Black communities, and Black folks weren't going to church as much.

that with "popular' R&B there is:

an absence of invulnerability(has there ever been that?)
- dudes havent gotten like these hip hop artists who cant show pain. R&B was the house that pain lived in....Yeah, Jhene is doing it, but who else? Think about the biggest records in R&B now. we wil even go to the R&B charts. The top five songs are:

Black Widow by Iggy(just becuz Rita is singing on it)
Rariworkout by Lethal Bizzle
All of Me by John Legend (enigma)
Fancy by Iggy
Loyal by Chris Brown


an absence of songs without curses(I mean really?)



I understand that generations each have their own< i even know that Jodeci back in 92 is nothing like the Isleys, but share a lot of similarities all while still showing pain and having some art involved.

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dignity, respect, common decency, etc etc

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Like, do we count TGT? Or was Pretty Ricky the last R&B group, if they even count as one? Or do we count Day 26?

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its easier to market solo personalities. besides what eventually happens is either band member jealously or the lead singer goes solo anyway.




i do miss the groups singing a Capella or doo wopping........that was good shit

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how sad is that????????????????

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what are Stay with me and All of me?

Double 0
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Producer in Kidz In The Hall
-------------------------------------------
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ok, so i exaggerated with there are NO more.....but there are rarely any.......definitely not to the manner of 20 years ago.

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I named 2 billboard top 100 songs for this year

Mad chill slow music out there

Banks, Twigs, JMSN, How To Dress Well, BJ The Chicago Kid etc...

Double 0
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Producer in Kidz In The Hall
-------------------------------------------
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i am looking for relevance and hits. we all know that there is great R&B in the indie world, plenty of it.......but as far as the stars go, its changing a lot.

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R&B the way you see it doesn't make stars anymore..

Not WORLD stars

Beyonce is the biggest star in the world and definitely came FROM R&B... but R&b is not a place to stay in..

Double 0
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Producer in Kidz In The Hall
-------------------------------------------
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and that is the state of things now, but my original point is that the business of music steered it that way, and i believe a large part of that is due to the hip hop influence.

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I was just thinking about this yesterday when I heard Cherish's Do It To It in the gym locker room yesterday.

I was like "damn, they must have been the last real female R&B girl group to really have any chart impact."

Pussycat Dolls don't count. Rich Girl and Eletrik Red, both super-producers' showcases, came and went before making a mark. So, yeah, Cherish is it.

People were already on the island first.

This is a conversation that's been going on at least 15 years, with added volume since about 2005 or so forward.

Which would be 20 years or so.

It's been the topic of like a forest's worth of writing.

It was the major impetus behind the neo-soul movement.

It was one of the basic theses behind the formulation of this forum.

For the first few years of OKP, it was an ongoing meme ("Hip hop killed its mama")

Like every fifth Warren Coolidge makes to this day talks about this.

At one point, maybe an eighth of posts in the Lesson were about this to varying degrees.

And hey, if my man still has something to say on the subject, that's cool... but he's like "I think Hip-hop killed R&B--Am I crazy?" like it's some stunning new revelation he just came up with, or like he's Peggy Hill saying "*In my opinion*, the day after Thanksgiving is the busiest shopping day of the year!"


All that being said, I don't even think it's true, though... "Soul music" was long, long finished by the time that hip-hop started making waves and R&B had been chasing its tail for some time.

For a quick minute, the hip-hop influence brought a new sense of energy and direction to R&B.

But it was just for a minute. It kinda delayed the inevitable.

The rise of the "R&B Thug" model? That's another story...

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

>All that being said, I don't even think it's true, though...
>"Soul music" was long, long finished by the time that hip-hop
>started making waves and R&B had been chasing its tail for
>some time.
>
>For a quick minute, the hip-hop influence brought a new sense
>of energy and direction to R&B.
>
>But it was just for a minute. It kinda delayed the
>inevitable.
>


bobby brown's "don't be cruel" and
maybe even janet jackson's rhythm nation proves your point.

those albums, while not hip hop, couldn't have existed
without hip hop's DNA sliding in there somewhere.




>The rise of the "R&B Thug" model? That's another story...

Or at least I agree.

Ignore the old ppl giving you shit. They figured this out one day before the Lesson and if they'd has this forum then they'd have made this post too. Some of us made this post 15 yrs ago or so but you weren't here then and it ain't archived probably. And if it was - there's a new crop of ppl in their 20s who want to have this conversation. We 30-40 yr olds don't need to be part of it if we can offer only snark and not our wisdom .

fuck you.

I wish I'd grown up as I aged.

its not even the older generation snark


no slow jams(there have been present for generations)

no groups(going on for generations)

if it was just about singers not being strong anymore or the subject matter then u could say "old man rant' but things that have been in R&B for decades are gone. even Ne Yo said, slow jams are missing

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

>its not even the older generation snark
>
>
>no slow jams(there have been present for generations)
>
>no groups(going on for generations)
>
>if it was just about singers not being strong anymore or the
>subject matter then u could say "old man rant' but things that
>have been in R&B for decades are gone. even Ne Yo said, slow
>jams are missing
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

fuck you.

and when I said "OLDER GENERATION" i was talking about okp people. I was talking about people from a previous generation of fans who talk about today's R&B and state"it wasnt like that during my time". I read your response a little quick. Pardon me.

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>I read your response a little quick.
>Pardon me.


And again.


And again.

S-l-o-w-l-y.

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I replied to encourage the older folks around here who we're throwing shade to chill so you kids could have this discussion. We had it a long time ago so we're over it but that doesn't mean you kids shouldn't have the discussion.

I assume you're a kid bc I assume us older folks already know HH killed R&B.

fuck you.

so i posted the topic

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fuck you.

Good times, man...good times


does it really matter?

vote for bin: http://tinyurl.com/qz8zep5

i give you John Legend, sometimes Robin and maxwell when he is around...........but that is not a lot of people and definitely not what it used to be

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every once and awhile an adult conteporary artist will have a radio "hit", but really it's fanbase loyalty and touring...

"yes, sometimes my rhymes are sexist, but you lovely bitches and hos should know i'm tryin to correct it"- hiphopopotamus

ok, Ledisi is doing it. and yes, there are a few names and all of the people that you name are still making money.....but as far as visibility it has changed.


people would even put Alicia in that same category but she hasnt been around, and the last time she was, there werent the ballad singles anymore. things have been changing

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alot of it is touring and a loyal fanbase....and yes Benet still has "hits" in adult contemporary music

"yes, sometimes my rhymes are sexist, but you lovely bitches and hos should know i'm tryin to correct it"- hiphopopotamus

it also said the genre is THRIVING. other than legend, I wouldnt say THRIVING. i would say still relevant, still profitable, but not THRIVING.

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they just figured out how to do it without radio...

folks are making nice money and doing what they love....they don't need to be superstars and never wanted to be in most cases

"yes, sometimes my rhymes are sexist, but you lovely bitches and hos should know i'm tryin to correct it"- hiphopopotamus

so the "Good Kisser"'s and "Loyal"'s are merely part of tradition.

They don't represent all of popular R&B at all.

because i wasnt here. yes, I am in my 30s, not a college age okp, have been here off and on since 05......but i havent looked at this site everyday since 05. if i inadvertently copying an idea someone stated earlier, so what.

maybe someone who just joined up wants to talk about this.


if all of you guys want to lend an opinion and keep the discussion going, speak up. If you dont agree or this shit aint for you, go to another post, there are TONS of them ( Thank you for the Boards, Quest)


but to sit here and talk in your troll language about how we had this convo five years ago on a rainy November day in 07 is not only a waste of time, it is also beside the point. If you dont agree with my statement, say why and KIM.

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fuck you.

...gets on my nerves when a song is jamming and someone just throws in a curse word or some liqour/drug refence to make it sound more "real...ugh

"yes, sometimes my rhymes are sexist, but you lovely bitches and hos should know i'm tryin to correct it"- hiphopopotamus

the thing that i always say is that you are starting with an audience of everyone, and then there are certain things that you come to the table with that cuts down your audience from the things u wear to how you marketed, and then the song itslef.......if u reference lables and drugs, goodbye plus 50 crowd......if you are cursing, good bye conservative crowd, if there is no melody, goodbye to the people who like to sing along.

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yeah it had raunch before, but most artists had more poetic license, hoewever thinly veiled it sometimes was...

"yes, sometimes my rhymes are sexist, but you lovely bitches and hos should know i'm tryin to correct it"- hiphopopotamus

No one is starting with an audience of everyone..

You start IN the niche and grow out...

The entire idea of crossing over is based on that. Start urban grow to pop smashes etc...

The youth urban market is the last place (at radio) to really grow a grass roots fanbase

Ideally you skew younger so that as your fans grow and become more eclectic you can grow with them.

It is rare to start A/C and find a hit.. to crossover with these days

Robin Thicke might be the closest but he always had random love from the youth like Lil Wayne.. Rick Ross etc..

John Legend had Kanye so..

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when i say starts with an audience of everyone, i mean, the very basics, as in you are going to sing a song. ok, before you sing or even stated how it sounds or what it is about, everyone is ready to listen. of course the business and label aspect of it comes in, you are classified into a genre, and then your audience is narrowed because you have been classified.......thats all i meant.

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because people hate him so much for his lack of output

but he made probably the best Soul album of the 1990's and it was HEAVILY influenced by hip-hop, though the beauty of that record was that it wasn't trying to *be* hip-hop, it was organic soul made by a cat who was clearly a hip-hop head along w/ being a soul head

so i'm not sure we could "blame" hip-hop for destroying Soul Music (fuck R&B, LOL), i think the blame is probably better aimed at record labels and R&B fans and artists...

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