here's why:

I dont want to get into the whole thing about dated beats and bad production choices but here is my point. Through the years, we have seen Tariq evolve when he had to(Malik B not being around full time after Things Fall Apart, Hip Hop getting more creative topic-wise at that time) and when he decided to. (Theme albums, to appeal to a wider crowd). The Thought of Illadeph would probably run rings around the Tariq of today as far as just spittin, but was he really there mentally to paint such a landscape as what was achieved on Undun? Understand's one verse just really took you places and it seemed effortless on his part.

When it comes to Rakim, he was actually at his crative peak at "Don't Sweat the Technique" topic wise, and he was at the top of his game spittin, but he has not been prolific over the years, releasing what i believe is three albums in 20 years? I believe that if you are a Barry Sanders or sandy Koufax type where you released a small amount during a short time, you should be judged for that amazing run in a limited time, as we marvel over the potential of what could have been. But I also believe that if your extension of that legacy years later is average, or fair below what their peak is,......it hurts you.


As far as Nas, he is and always will be nasty to me. he is one of the most intelligent rhymers out there. Illmatic is one of the greatest albums of all time. he has several strong albums as well.

But I believe that whether it was a label thing or just what he wanted, he always has held back what he could do. when you think about "One Mic", or the political call of most of the Untitled album i just think that key phrases/topics of the day call him to get out of the pool of creativity many times, leaving a lot of us to just sit by that pool and wander why and how? as much as I wish that he was, he has never been consistent.


Black Thought has done what I believe all MC's should show topic wise, flow wise, and thats growth. even showing your personal growth. The first few Common albums were a perfect example of that, and the Roots catalog has been the same.


I know that we are supposed to respect Ra very highly, and I do believe that he can eat a lot of rappers from today and yesterday, but I think he is stuck in a box.



Thoughts???

follow me @oldirtyplaster on the Twitter thing.....i say awesome stuff

.

you want to elaborate?

follow me @oldirtyplaster on the Twitter thing.....i say awesome stuff

At least I wouldn't. As far as impact on hip hop I might disagree, but on skill as an MC he's absolutely up there.

-------------------------------------------------
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follow me @oldirtyplaster on the Twitter thing.....i say awesome stuff

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http://www.soundcloud.com/sectachrome

Because of the time that Rakim dropped particularly and the influence he had on a generation of emcees, his later work is really a non-factor in the discussion (just like how rock fans aren't going to talk about the end of Elvis' career when discussing him). Nas also made a searing debut into the culture. Thought never had that moment when he impacted the whole hip-hop culture in anywhere near the fashion of Rakim or Nas, which is why they'll always overshadow him IMHO. Either Nas or Rakim could hop on a popular song and drop a blazing hot 16 and make a lot of people pay attention. Thought probably wouldn't. That's not because Thought isn't great, it's because Thought has never attracted the love of a sizable portion of the culture like Rakim and Nas have. He's a niche dude. The folks that know, know. And love him. And he seems cool with that.

I love Black Thought, by the way. I think he's awesome. But nah.

Edit: When Nas went at The Roots for backing Jay on Unplugged, that was Thought's window to greatness. He should have gone after Nas with all that he had, even though he did son Nas pretty thoroughly in his radio interview rebuttal ("I'm in Africa right now, dog").

Peace,

Spirit (Alan)
http://wutangbook.com

u have to say lets hit overdrive. when nas came out, it was one some alien shit. no dude from the streets was kicking knowledge like that. Rakim's style was YEARS beyond its time so i wonder, when do you kick it into overdrive? he never did.

follow me @oldirtyplaster on the Twitter thing.....i say awesome stuff

>u have to say lets hit overdrive. when nas came out, it was
>one some alien shit. no dude from the streets was kicking
>knowledge like that. Rakim's style was YEARS beyond its time
>so i wonder, when do you kick it into overdrive? he never
>did.
>
nobody caught up...

go listen to the punisher

no one has surpassed his lyricism yet. not to mention cats basically STILL follow his blueprint for rhyming. aint nobody screaming. smooth flows and multis - thats RA

http://howardlloyd.bandcamp.com

thats the point. He has stuck with the formula last changed on the last album with Eric B and hasnt changed. I believe that great MC should evolve, even when he doesnt have to. regardless of what people think of Jay, that man is always challenging himself.

Black Thought does that without attaching himself to trends.

follow me @oldirtyplaster on the Twitter thing.....i say awesome stuff

Listen, Al Green still basically sings the same way as he did in the 70s and it sounds damn good, so why change it? So some random critic can say he 'evolved'? Bollocks. I haven't really kept up with Rakim since his guest verse on that Alicia Keys song a few years back, but he sounded great then. What do you expect him to do, start doing that retarded stutter step Migos flow? No thanks. Thought was using similar flow patterns on Game Theory and Rising Down, but those were some great flow patterns, so who cares?

and even then it'd would be a tough argument with bar by bar analysis

Rakim and Nas were aliens to the genre and dudes have been trying to copy them for years. the intelligent dude from the pjs trying to go in depth and knock the stereotype of how to rap when coming from such circumstances, his flow has changed over time from a slightly conversational that depended a lot on riding the beat to more of a slower, more conversational flow that at times seems unsteady.


Rakim has had very similar circumstances with where his flow went. BUT he influenced so many people with not only his wordplay and intelligence, but switching tempo. The guy on "Aint No Joke' isnt the same as the guy on "Know the Ledge". Its pretty wicked how a beat that was that tempo was ridden in a unexpected nature from what he had been doing. th reason why I say that "Technique" was his peak was because what really was the innovation after that?

enter Black Thought. he was really just playing with it on Organix, more advance and focused on mid tempo beats on "Do you Want More????" and Illapdelph were some the fastest beats that the beats rhymed over, and you felt that G Rap influence and some of the nastiest beat riding you ever heard. Over the next few albums, not only did the music supplied by the band change, but the song structure changed. hop forward a few years, you see 75 Bars, and Thought has evolved tenfold from the Illadeph Halflife rapper, and then that guy from 4 years ago sounding the way he does on "Understand", with a tricky rhyme pattern

his influence may not be as evident, but it is there if you look. Illadelph and Things Fall Apart made dudes fuck with word play much more.

follow me @oldirtyplaster on the Twitter thing.....i say awesome stuff

But i disagree that Illadelph thought would murder current thought. I have heard a couple guest features recently that were nutzo. Plus dude didn't even kick into high gear until Thought @Work, then kept turning up with Web, and then again with 75 Bars.

Not saying you're wrong but it is a good question.

But look at it this way. 9/10 Black Thought verses are A-game. Maybe in the last few years it's been 7/10. 5/10. But instead of putting those 3/10 or 5/10 verses that aren't A-game on the albums, like most rappers would, they just have guests.

Not a bad move.

Plus these dudes got money now. Putting people on is a good idea as long as they are dope.

I can dig it...your talking about 3 out of the top 5 all time IMO, crazy talented brothers. That said, when it's all said and done, when Thought gives it up, I believe he will be considered the best to ever do it...

Integrity is the Cornerstone of Artistry...

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in my top 3. always

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Fuck it

he's great, possibly one of the best ever
but because he didnt get the same respect as a Nas or Rakim, people go super hard to elevate him to demigod status

when you give Black Thought those types of props you're forgetting Malik B, Q-Tip, Posdnuos, Trugoy, Mos Def, Lil Fame, Ghostface and a list of others who were right there with him

he was cool and unique on Do You Want More, AMAZING on Illadelphhalflife and Things Fall Apart and now he's in and then you shoot your cousin mode, which subtracts points for me

I think it was on Tony Touch? Thought also got the better of Ghost on his Apollo Kids album (song was called "In The Park," I think?). Thought was in a cipher with Lil Fame, Illa G and a few others and he bodied Lil Fame. Thought could body most of the people you listed.


Peace,

Spirit (Alan)
http://wutangbook.com

>when you give Black Thought those types of props you're
>forgetting Malik B, Q-Tip, Posdnuos, Trugoy, Mos Def, Lil
>Fame, Ghostface and a list of others who were right there with
>him

Only ones on your list in the same league as Thought is Mos and Pos.

And I love all those MCs...but come on man...Fame is not in the same league as these cats.

I don't agree that his being underrated makes him overrated either. Thought may not have reached the same level of status as Ra and Nas because he never had the same impact but lyrically and technically speaking he is up there.

His live show sets him apart as well.

Only reason I have Nas up higher is because he has been around just as long and has covered more ground and has more great songs than Thought especially Thought as the only MC on the song.

Lil Fame? Damn, maybe I need some links, cause never heard that brother mentioned with the greats...

Integrity is the Cornerstone of Artistry...

Fame went insane all over M.O.P.'s Warriorz LP

>Fame went insane all over M.O.P.'s Warriorz LP
He did but we would never think of considering him among the greats.

******************************************
Falcons, Braves, Bulldogs and Hawks

Geto Boys, Poison Clan, UGK, Eightball & MJG, OutKast, Goodie Mob

I blame that mostly on the direction The Roots are taking nowadays.

I think it would actually help Thought out get him out of this slump, HIGO fucked it all up I'm not sure how much say he has with what the Roots do so not sure if I can blame him.

...that people will go as hard to say that underrated guys they like are better than people who actually have the stats?

Maybe guitar players, because I always hear some dickhead confusing favorites for greatest. But other than that, basketball and hip hop have people throwing GOAT status at bench players they like*.

(* - I say that not directed at Thought, who is one of the finest MCs, but thrown at the hyperbole)

_
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For one, he's been in a group so he's never had to hold down solo LP's with the exception on Phrenology (which was dope) and TTP (which The Roots could've kept). He's always had help on mic duties starting off with Malik B and then having Dice Raw, Peedi, Truck North, Greg Porn, etc so doing a verse per song or a few solo tracks per album keeps him out of that top tier level to me. He's has the content now but he doesn't spit like he did in his prime and he lacked content then. Still one of my favorites just not on a level with Ra or Nas.

******************************************
Falcons, Braves, Bulldogs and Hawks

Geto Boys, Poison Clan, UGK, Eightball & MJG, OutKast, Goodie Mob

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If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

I'd consider arguments for KRS, but that about it

which at worst, has Black Thought #2

3 Classic albums in his discog, IMO

20 year career

and for those talking about impact...

are we going to pretend that neo-soul wasn't a thing

that it didn't happen

and that the Roots weren't at the foreground of that sound?

you can also see the Roots/Black Thought's impact on performers in hip-hop today

there was a time, when a hip-hop show may have consisted of a DJ and an MC, and sometimes just an MC rapping over a DAT

now, it's rare TO NOT find an MC fronting a live band during performances

so yeah, #1 in 2 key MC categories

Longevity

a discog that can go heads up with just about anybody's really

AND IMPACT

=

#1

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

We're talking about impact within the hip-hop genre. Which Rakim, specifically, has over Thought and pretty much everyone (size of impact on his own genre).

Peace,

Spirit (Alan)
http://wutangbook.com

OkayPlayer!

kinda glossed over my impact on performances/live band in hip-hop too!

I'm not saying he had a bigger impact on hip-hop

I'm talking to folks that aren't even mentioning the impact that he and the Roots have had

neo-sould was a thing

it did happen

and the Roots were at the foreground of that movement.

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

if you count the verses Thought has on all 11 studio albums and weigh them against how many Ra has or Nas, I am sure it is not that far off. Then figure in that he does more guest verses than both of them, probably combined.


Then as far as discounting him because he isnt doing the "15 battle raps and one girl song" formula anymore is stupid. A great MC makes records, songs. A battle mc has puns and lines and is just that. A battle Mc. Thought can be both ......20 years later. if you had a song topic, lets say, losing a friend to cancer, which of the three would deliver the best product?

if you had to take one of the three in a battle IN THEIR PRIME, who would you take?

follow me @oldirtyplaster on the Twitter thing.....i say awesome stuff

11 albums (one double)
The Firm (which isn't much)
Distant Relatives
A TON of unreleased material that we all have heard

and you think Thought does more guest spots than Nas?

It's not even close...at all.

sitting up here and discounting him because of all of the guest appearances is silly. its not like we are having a conversation about Kendrick and his three albums against Nas and stating that the difference doesnt matter. This is a man, whether its one verse for each song or three, has been around a LONG TIME and has delivered a vast catalog that a lot of mcs have not reached even with Malik B and guest appearances. I dont see people discounting Andre with 12 yrs of sharing the mic.

follow me @oldirtyplaster on the Twitter thing.....i say awesome stuff

I'm not discounting him.

Thought has always been one of my favorites and we are at the point of splitting hairs.

Nas covers more ground concept-wise and has more great songs especially if you're only counting Thought solo songs.

And the heavy guest appearances is a knock because it is simply easier to write just one verse a song.

It's the reason I have Andre further down on the list. He's one of my favorites but if I honestly look at his best lyrical performance over the course of an album (Aquemini) I notice that he only spit like 11 verses and a spoken word. That is minimal work and when compared to an album like It Was Written where Nas goes ape shit for 30+ verses, you have to weigh it.

But like I said, you named my top 3 and I actually have Thought ahead of Rakim at this point mostly due to the fact I grew up on Thought and he has had amazing longevity. I just don't think he's edging Nas out because he also has had longevity and has Thought beat out in a few important categories.

>And the heavy guest appearances is a knock because it is
>simply easier to write just one verse a song.
>
>It's the reason I have Andre further down on the list. He's
>one of my favorites but if I honestly look at his best lyrical
>performance over the course of an album (Aquemini) I notice
>that he only spit like 11 verses and a spoken word. That is
>minimal work and when compared to an album like It Was Written
>where Nas goes ape shit for 30+ verses, you have to weigh it.
>
I couldn't have said it better myself.

******************************************
Falcons, Braves, Bulldogs and Hawks

Geto Boys, Poison Clan, UGK, Eightball & MJG, OutKast, Goodie Mob

seriously? I will give yo the Untitled album, but other than that, seriously? The roots last 5 albums have been beyond typical roots or anybody's subject matter. Nas is money, hos , clothes.....occasional introspective hustler view, and a few deviations.

follow me @oldirtyplaster on the Twitter thing.....i say awesome stuff

And the way you just tried to sum up Nas tells me we don't need to continue this conversation.

u ok?

follow me @oldirtyplaster on the Twitter thing.....i say awesome stuff

Where do you think of it?

well u said you were ending the conversation so i didnt think it mattered. Guess someone lied. if ur a Nas stan its ok. But what I am saying is really, how we we going to say that Thought hasnt gone anywhere with what he has given us, and how can we say that it doesnt matter amongst the greats and limit it. If we can go to sports as an analogy, I would count Barry sanders amongst the great, he retired at 32. Emmiit Smith has the career rushing record and played until 36,37.

Nas has more verses, but what did he do with them? People discount so many of Nas's albums as eh, but maybe only one Roots album.

follow me @oldirtyplaster on the Twitter thing.....i say awesome stuff

>And the way you just tried to sum up Nas tells me we don't
>need to continue this conversation.
>

and, shit, i might even entertain the OP's proposition.

Black Thought, himself, is such a strange anomaly because CLEARLY, he can rap circles around
some of the best MC's out now, or in the past, but he's obviously satisfied with doin HIS thing
within The Roots and knowing in his own mind that he's one of, if not, THE BEST!! Dude can do
multies, he's clever, introspective, streetwise, and can get Pop with it depending on the style or
genre of music he's working with.

MOP...FOH

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_8EsbTPb6k

it's a wrap like brown paper

and if don't believe

you will @ 9 min!

BISHES

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

not just "it's 2014 and this is really good"

easy, Nas and Ra ain't got nothing for that.

you watchin' the late show

musta forgot

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

see reply 46

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

he's a great live performer with credit owed to his band
he's not the greatest freestyler ever
and plenty of people have 3 classic LPs
thought is one of the most overlooked for sure, but greatest ever? nah

are you saying

Nas and Ra are better freestylers

or better live performers

I doubt it

discog would be even more weighted by opinion

but you'd be reaching on that comparison too, IMO

plenty of hip-hop acts have 3 classic albums hunh? to bad Nas and Ra aren't one of them

I'll concede on impact

but, again, let's not act like Black Thought and the Roots had 0 impact

seriously

the point of posting that vid

is Black Thought, 20 years into the game, murdered a session full of hip-hop luminaries

you got nothing for that.

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

I would agree that The Roots have 3 classic for my own personal opinion and taste but one could very easily name 3 Nas or Rakim albums as classics.

As a matter of fact, if you look at most definitive hip-hop album lists you would surely see Paid In Full and Illmatic and may not even see a Roots album.

I know that has nothing to do with the quality of the music but I'm simply using your standards here.

If The Roots have 3 classic then Rakim and Nas do as well.

"I would agree that The Roots have 3 classic for my own personal opinion and taste"

then what are you asking me?

"but one could very easily name 3 Nas or Rakim albums as classics."

I couldn't

I got Paid in Full and Follow the Leader for Ra, end of the list

I got Illmatic for Nas, end of the list

and be very careful here, trying to reach just in order to make an argument

you start cysing half filler Nas albums, and you're opening the door for the Roots' discog through HIGO

the last 2 concept albums, admittedly, aren't exactly my thing

"As a matter of fact, if you look at most definitive hip-hop album lists"

and that's where you lost

first of all, I'm not gonna pretend to know what everyone's opinion is, and then adjust mine

#1 to me, that's my opinion

if you wanted to argue some list, you can take that to Rolling Stone

and they have 3 Em albums and 2 Beastie Boys albums in their top 25

should end that argument

furthermore

if you were to ask Joe Public who is the GOAT

they'd probably say Jay, or Wayne, or BIG, or Pac, etc...

nobody's offering any argument against what I've stated

it's Nas, Ra and Black Thought

if you can't present a convincing argument for Nas and Ra

then that leads me to conclude

Black Thought is the GOAT!

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

Carry on.

at?

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

But you think The Roots have 3 clear cut classics when the other two don't so...why are we even continuing.

The only true classics from the 3 MCs are Paid In Full and Illmatic.

Thought has nothing on that level.

I think illadelph, things fall apart and game theory are all on that level. Nas has to many garbage songs and garbage verses. I don't know if I've ever heard anything close to a bad verse by thought, he will barely even have a bad line. Rakim was ahead of his time but was never able to adapt and continue to make great music. Thought has continued to evolve and stay relevant.
My top 3
Thought
Nas
Rakim
In that order but IMO u can't say nas are rakim are better rappers, they have had the bigger impact on rap as a whole but are not better mc's

That everyone is listing Nas, Rakim and Thought as the three best.

Yet those saying Thought is number 1 are trying to base it on downing the other two.

Lol @ bad songs and bad verses. That's some complete fucking bullshit and the fact you said that and still named Nas number 2 is proof.

Go back to lurking.

I love how Thought goes in extra to embarass everyone else in these freestyles. Goes twice as long, and makes the DJ keep going when he thought it was over.

-------------------------------------------------
http://www.soundcloud.com/sectachrome

Thought is better live and has longevity. But he don't come close to LL's material and versatility.

Hit songs has nothing to do with rapping ability

His first four albums are undeniable.

But Guru has better material and I'd rather listen to him based on that.

It's about who is technically better.

Thought is better than both LL and Guru.

On that BET cypher he was on a whole nother level than Mos and Thought and made it look easy.

In his prime and at his best, LL was technically really great. I'd put them on a similar level from that standpoint.

Nah

------------------------------

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How is this really even debatable at this point ? Nah, he doesn't have to spot every verse on each album, but each lp has a bunch of great verses from the guy...most solo cats we consider great with the same lifespan don't even have 3 great verses on many of their own albums....yeah, they had to come with more lines, but they still can't come up with at least half of the material they write actually being great ... Plus he KILLS every gust spot, the only one close is 3k and he only a verse or three MAX a year these days....


I get what people are saying with Nas and Rakim being two of the greatest to ever touch a Mic, but are you as excited to hear New Nas and Takin today as you were 10 to 20 years ago? Or when they release new material are you just hoping you're pleasantly surprised?

"yes, sometimes my rhymes are sexist, but you lovely bitches and hos should know i'm tryin to correct it"- hiphopopotamus

>How is this really even debatable at this point ? Nah, he
>doesn't have to spot every verse on each album, but each lp
>has a bunch of great verses from the guy...most solo cats we
>consider great with the same lifespan don't even have 3 great
>verses on many of their own albums....

Please name these MCs. Nas? Monch? Pos? Who are we talking here?

yeah, they had to come
>with more lines, but they still can't come up with at least
>half of the material they write actually being great ... Plus
>he KILLS every gust spot, the only one close is 3k and he only
>a verse or three MAX a year these days....
>
>

So now we're faulting Dre for doing too little work but not Thought? Where's the line? Are you going to attempt to make any sense at all?


>I get what people are saying with Nas and Rakim being two of
>the greatest to ever touch a Mic, but are you as excited to
>hear New Nas and Takin today as you were 10 to 20 years ago?
>Or when they release new material are you just hoping you're
>pleasantly surprised?

The last Nas album contained;

Loco-Motive - bodied
Daughters - Thought has never and will never get this personal and that's one of his knocks
Back When - epitome of hip-hop
The Don - bodied
Stay - only Nas is making this record
Nasty - bodied
The Black Bond - only Nas is making this record and making it this dope.
Roses - introspective
Where's The Love - 2nd verse alone voids any knock you're claiming on Nas

And I didn't even mention average song in which his verses were great like;

Accident Murderers
Reach Out
World's An Addiction

You can't be serious with this shit. Thought had 6 verses on the last Roots album. 6!

And I already said Thought is number 2 but I'll be dammed if people are going to be in here just making some bullshit up.

wtf is you even mad about?? LOl

"yes, sometimes my rhymes are sexist, but you lovely bitches and hos should know i'm tryin to correct it"- hiphopopotamus