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Subject: "But does anyone "really" listen to free jazz though?" Previous topic | Next topic
kwez
Member since Aug 10th 2003
11774 posts
Fri Jul-25-14 03:35 PM

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"But does anyone "really" listen to free jazz though?"


  

          

I mean, is that even music?

I'm not being flippant or trying to be funny, but...how does that shit even count as music?

The fuck is this shit?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EstPgi4eMe4

I even went back to what I guess is the album that started it all, Ornette Colemans "The Shape Of Jazz To Come" thinking that perhaps what I was hearing now was some spaced out offshoot but nope, I found even that late 50's album completely unlistenable.

So any jazz heads in here that can advise me on "how" to make sense of it?
************************

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
eat a 13/7 dick bitch #freejazzthuggin
Jul 23rd 2014
1
Teach me bruh. n/m
Jul 23rd 2014
2
'free' 'jazz' is a bit of a misnomer
Jul 23rd 2014
9
      at the risk of getting GD'ish, do you think there's a perception that...
Jul 23rd 2014
11
      Incidentally, I found this video which I had just started watching
Jul 23rd 2014
15
      rephrased free jazz is difficult for traditional black audiences
Jul 23rd 2014
22
      interesting comments thanks
Jul 23rd 2014
24
      Just one thing worth noting:
Jul 24th 2014
34
           RE: Just one thing worth noting:
Jul 24th 2014
38
           I've tried a little...
Jul 24th 2014
40
                RE: I've tried a little...
Jul 25th 2014
62
           thanks
Jul 24th 2014
46
           Yeah, I forgot him...
Jul 24th 2014
47
                can you link up some loft-jazz stuff
Jul 25th 2014
64
                     i really need to spring for the Wildflowers comp at some point
Jul 25th 2014
72
           Great Post. for me free jazz mirrors non-mainstream / "backpack"
Jul 25th 2014
63
                i'd liken it as well to the current so called "beat scene"
Jul 25th 2014
74
      thanks! always enjoy reading your posts
Jul 23rd 2014
12
      Ok, so this leads me to what I hope isn't a silly question
Jul 23rd 2014
14
           RE: Ok, so this leads me to what I hope isn't a silly question
Jul 23rd 2014
18
           With free jazz you have to be willing to not listen for the head
Jul 23rd 2014
20
lofl. damn you
Jul 23rd 2014
25
I've had a contentious relationship with free jazz over the years
Jul 23rd 2014
3
Ive copied and pasted this post. Thanks for taking the time. Appreciated
Jul 23rd 2014
6
I'm the polar opposite with this:
Jul 24th 2014
35
      Point taken about the tonality of most free jazz...
Jul 24th 2014
42
           Well, I always dug that ''atack from all angles''-approach...
Jul 24th 2014
44
                I'm with Jakob
Jul 25th 2014
65
its not for everybody...some might even say its an acquired taste...
Jul 23rd 2014
4
Yeah, just talking about free jazz. I love jazz music quite completely
Jul 23rd 2014
7
      i'd venture to say you don't love jazz "completely" if there are not...
Jul 23rd 2014
10
           Well then let me come clean and state that I'm new to the genre
Jul 23rd 2014
13
                i've only really *seriously* gotten into jazz the last 2 yrs myself
Jul 23rd 2014
16
                     Seen, and thanks.
Jul 23rd 2014
17
I do like "Shape of Jazz to Come" quite a bit
Jul 23rd 2014
5
RE: I do like "Shape of Jazz to Come" quite a bit
Jul 23rd 2014
19
there's a grip of "out" releases on Blue Note in the early 60's...
Jul 23rd 2014
23
      Yeah, I ''always'' try to give this advice...
Jul 24th 2014
36
yeah Shape of Jazz to Come is very digestable to me
Jul 24th 2014
37
      Drummer Billy Higgins had a killer groove...
Jul 24th 2014
39
      Aw man I remember seeing Billy Higgins in Leimert Park
Jul 24th 2014
41
           cool story
Jul 25th 2014
66
           Cool story bro!!!
Jul 25th 2014
76
      Just wanted to give you props for the Mumbles reference
Jul 24th 2014
51
           Let me ask you a question though
Jul 24th 2014
53
                He released something two years ago
Jul 25th 2014
54
                I think he got pretty disillusioned by the record biz
Jul 25th 2014
57
                     It's not the album
Jul 25th 2014
58
                     Huh, I haven't heard that one either
Jul 25th 2014
60
                     yeah Acey jerked dude I knew in High School who did
Jul 25th 2014
61
                          All those dudes are "real niggas" at heart
Jul 25th 2014
67
                               LMAO
Jul 25th 2014
71
                                    It's kind of fitting that we're talking about them in this post
Jul 25th 2014
73
*plays Revolutionary Ensemble all up in this bitch*
Jul 23rd 2014
8
Yes n/m
Jul 23rd 2014
21
i knew imc and dale would be up in here
Jul 23rd 2014
26
this makes me think of Jakob Hellberg
Jul 23rd 2014
27
was gonna say this post ain't complete til Jakob drops the knowledge
Jul 23rd 2014
28
The banging is most definitely controlled
Jul 23rd 2014
29
      Ascension is compositionally flawed.
Jul 24th 2014
32
           Oh yeah, forgot about Free Jazz
Jul 24th 2014
43
RE: I'd recommend Andrew Hill.
Jul 23rd 2014
30
Not that it's necessary but...
Aug 10th 2014
86
LOL, what?
Jul 24th 2014
31
RE: LOL, what?
Jul 25th 2014
68
      Peep the whole album...
Jul 25th 2014
75
A lot of great responses in here. Thanks. A lot to chew on now.
Jul 24th 2014
33
I like it more academically than viscerally
Jul 24th 2014
45
Please comment on my free jazz quartet
Jul 24th 2014
48
doesn't load.
Jul 25th 2014
70
at the risk of sounding a bit flaky or cliched...
Jul 24th 2014
49
Charles Mingus' Ah Um is a great "free jazz" album
Jul 24th 2014
50
According to Patrick Star, grownups appreciate free form jazz
Jul 24th 2014
52
I apparently know nothing about music
Jul 25th 2014
55
you don't need to know anything to listen!
Jul 25th 2014
56
It sounds to me like life feels a lot of the time.
Jul 25th 2014
59
truthiness
Jul 25th 2014
69
Anyone interested in a ''guide'' through Cecil's discography?
Jul 25th 2014
77
i only have two Cecil Taylor albums
Jul 25th 2014
78
great Paris Concert is Student Studies (structures?), right?
Jul 25th 2014
79
i've been meaning to dig into Silva stuff
Jul 26th 2014
83
BTW, if you dig Cyrille...
Jul 25th 2014
80
      i love the stuff i have w/ Cyrille
Jul 26th 2014
82
deserves its own post
Jul 26th 2014
81
do it!
Jul 26th 2014
84
BTW...
Aug 09th 2014
85
really great read! do you have more similar texts?
Aug 11th 2014
91
Oh yeah, if you want to hear ''mellow'', moody, athmospheric free-jazz.....
Aug 10th 2014
87
*like*
Aug 10th 2014
89
I listen sometimes.
Aug 10th 2014
88
This was a great thread.
Aug 11th 2014
90

imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Wed Jul-23-14 03:29 PM

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1. "eat a 13/7 dick bitch #freejazzthuggin"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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kwez
Member since Aug 10th 2003
11774 posts
Wed Jul-23-14 03:29 PM

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2. "Teach me bruh. n/m"
In response to Reply # 1
Wed Jul-23-14 03:30 PM by kwez

  

          

Oops, not how to eat a dick, of course.

But how do you listen to this shit? What is it?

************************

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Wed Jul-23-14 04:35 PM

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9. "'free' 'jazz' is a bit of a misnomer"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

but the label has been around so long it's stuck. unfortunately it's mostly associated with those that take the 'free' literally at the expense of the 'jazz'.

the first and most important thing when approaching any free jazz (i'm going to stop using quotes) material is what's the framework under which this was created.

to overly simplify there are two possible facets of a jazz song - the head and the improvisation. most people are comfortable when the head has more notable influence than the improvisation. so the head can be long, or the improvisation can be if it is clearly extended from the head *directly* so that the audience can hear it.

free jazz in essence is about shifting that balance so that the head becomes less of a *direct* factor in the song. for a great majority of what's been called free jazz however the head is still of utmost importance, but the way it extends into the improvisation is often abstracted so that it sounds much less direct. at the extreme the head is lost completely and it's all improvisation.

now the thing about improvisation is also understanding how that can be stretched. in a standard jazz arrangement the improvisation is a solo or (usually at most) a duet of improv where all of the other player play supporting roles which hold the song to the head. on the freer end of the spectrum everyone can improvise t the same time. this can be improvisation with each other or without. without of course being the farthest out because you have as many counter everythings as there are players.

to the everythings point let's simplify playing to melodic, harmonic and rhythmic. so a head has a harmonic, melodic and rhythmic sensibility, and one can improvise off of any of those. this is how it becomes abstracted but still related. a player can improvise without the harmonic and melodic relations to the head but still be hitting it rhythmically. or any mutation of that. two notes from the melody, a chord of the harmony and a triplet from the rhythm. sounds nothing like the head but still related.

again to the extreme extreme you have no head and everyone improvising of their own accord, which can sound like a cacophonous noise. that can be literally a masturbation and performances like this are what can give it a bad rap. however one can't be absolute and say such a set up cannot create good free jazz. in fact the premises may be laid out as such in order to find out where 'nautral' resonances occur. so the drummer and the bassist are playing free to start but then start to react to each other that creates the head, which then inspires the reed which in turn brings in the brass. there was no head to begin with but by the end all the players know it without ever having to say a word. that can be a beautiful thing.


█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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CalvinButts
Member since Jun 20th 2014
854 posts
Wed Jul-23-14 04:38 PM

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11. "at the risk of getting GD'ish, do you think there's a perception that..."
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

free or, better, avant garde jazz is too "white"?

_________
steamrollin'

  

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kwez
Member since Aug 10th 2003
11774 posts
Wed Jul-23-14 04:56 PM

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15. "Incidentally, I found this video which I had just started watching"
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHlshNgkmOE

************************

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Wed Jul-23-14 06:03 PM

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22. "rephrased free jazz is difficult for traditional black audiences"
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

who are predisposed to listen to music for a subset of musical signifiers that they consider black.

groove
soul
harmonies
etc.

these may or may not be in a free jazz experience.
people will often be able to appreciate miles' freer period because he was focused on bringing the groove (some would say funk) signifiers into the free setting.

with the absence of these signifiers which often in the black modality must be repeated to drive home their blackness, makes it difficult for black audiences to embrace.

with that said there are some phenomenal black players that overtly utilize the black musical signifiers in an improvised perfromance. i think that was at the foundation of the Burnt Sugar project. Cecil Taylor, Butch Morris, Ornette Coleman, Matthew Shipp... they all at times utilize the black lexicon but often in abstracted ways which identify them as both black and other.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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CalvinButts
Member since Jun 20th 2014
854 posts
Wed Jul-23-14 06:16 PM

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24. "interesting comments thanks"
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

of course a lot of "free" musicians were deeply entrenched in the idea that free music or out music was in fact a radical expression of their Blackness

AEC (Great Black Music), Shepp, Rev Ensemble, Frank Lowe, etc

i think Free Jazz in some way had to have a connection w/ the radicalism & exploration of the zeitgeist of that era & jazz being inherently Black music reflected that in both the left leaning free movement as well as the artists that delved more into soul/funk to reflect the desires of "the people" so to speak





_________
steamrollin'

  

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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
9766 posts
Thu Jul-24-14 06:01 AM

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34. "Just one thing worth noting:"
In response to Reply # 11
Thu Jul-24-14 06:05 AM by Jakob Hellberg

          

The LARGE majority of notable free-jazz musicians were black; both the leaders/trend-setters and "foot-soldiers". However, the music became more popular in europe than in the USA so you got a LOT of european, white guys playing it towards the mid-late 60's; some are legends today but it would be quite a stretch to put, say, Peter Brötzmann, Evan Parker, Derek Bailey or Ton Oxley on the same level as Ayler, Coleman, Taylor, late Coltrane, Sanders, Cherry, AEOC, Sun Ra, Anthony Braxton and numerous others in terms of status/impact/recognition etc.

Still, there's been lots of dope white free-jazzers (especially later) but I'm personally heavily biased towards US free-jazz and more avantgarde post-bop from the 60's so >I tend to gravitate more towards the black US musicians even if there were some dope white guys in the US as well (Charlie Haden, Paul Bley and Roswell Rudd comes to mind).

As for when *american* free-jazz became white, I don't think that really happened until the 80's; the 70's "loft-jazz" scene was still dominated by black musicians in USA (=David Murray, Braxton, Threadgill, Oliver Lake etc.)...EDIT:I guess it mirrors US jazz at large even if Wynton and the "young lions" led to a new generation of black musicians getting recognition for more "traditional" jazz. I think that might have played a part in free-jazz being viewed as more white musically but there's been some prominent Black free-jazz musicians coming out after the 80's even if I guess many of them still had roots in that 70's loft-scene. Still, Matthew Shipp, David S. Ware (who played with Cecil in the mid-70's but became a "name" later), Charles Gayle (yuck!) and a few others come to mind as fairly well-known examples...

Basically, the *audiences* might have been predominantly white (not sure about that either, as you said, many of the militant guys were into free-jazz) but the musicians were still predominantly black in the US...

  

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A Love Supreme
Member since Nov 25th 2003
3045 posts
Thu Jul-24-14 08:11 AM

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38. "RE: Just one thing worth noting:"
In response to Reply # 34


          

>Charles Gayle (yuck!)

jake no like??

  

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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
9766 posts
Thu Jul-24-14 08:27 AM

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40. "I've tried a little..."
In response to Reply # 38


          

I think his tone is really ugly and not in a "cool" way and I don't think he plays anything cool either. Maybe I've heard the wrong records...

  

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A Love Supreme
Member since Nov 25th 2003
3045 posts
Fri Jul-25-14 02:01 PM

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62. "RE: I've tried a little..."
In response to Reply # 40


          

i think his most known record is "touchin' on trane". heard that one?

  

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CalvinButts
Member since Jun 20th 2014
854 posts
Thu Jul-24-14 09:30 AM

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46. "thanks"
In response to Reply # 34


  

          

good post, glad you mentioned the loft jazz scene, often overlooked

i gotta mention Steve Lacy re: white free jazz guys, i love that dude's music

_________
steamrollin'

  

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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
9766 posts
Thu Jul-24-14 09:39 AM

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47. "Yeah, I forgot him..."
In response to Reply # 46
Thu Jul-24-14 09:41 AM by Jakob Hellberg

          

He was awesome and was actually a dixieland revivalist who got "corrupted" by playing with Cecil Taylor. Many of the white free-jazz musicians were like that-I think Roswell Rudd was pure trad-jazz as well and Haden was a country-musician initially and Burton Greene I think played kletzmer or something, I think they had an easier time to go into free-jazz due to the lack of "rules" than they had playing more post-bop stuff where they might not have been as comfortable; at least not initially...

  

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astralblak
Member since Apr 05th 2007
20029 posts
Fri Jul-25-14 02:41 PM

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64. "can you link up some loft-jazz stuff"
In response to Reply # 47


  

          

first time I've come across the term. I mostly stop around 74/75 when it comes to jazz

  

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CalvinButts
Member since Jun 20th 2014
854 posts
Fri Jul-25-14 04:10 PM

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72. "i really need to spring for the Wildflowers comp at some point"
In response to Reply # 64


  

          

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v2vUbQfFtxs

Sam Rivers "Rivbea" loft was the center of a lot of it

im familiar w/ many of the artists tho

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loft_jazz

Oliver Lake & David Murray on Black Saint are some good records to look into for that style i think

Murray played w/ Nas' dad a lot

don't sleep on late 70's/early 80's jazz, lots of great great stuff

_________
steamrollin'

  

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astralblak
Member since Apr 05th 2007
20029 posts
Fri Jul-25-14 02:40 PM

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63. "Great Post. for me free jazz mirrors non-mainstream / "backpack""
In response to Reply # 34


  

          

rap post-97 in terms of what it was trying to do with a particular genre and the audience that gravitated to it

by the way Charlie Hayden is a beast. Carols Ninos played a song of his years ago on KPFK (LA station) that I have on tape, but haven't come across online. I never got the name of the song. the search continues

  

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CalvinButts
Member since Jun 20th 2014
854 posts
Fri Jul-25-14 04:40 PM

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74. "i'd liken it as well to the current so called "beat scene""
In response to Reply # 63


  

          

cats doing new & different things w/ a foundation still rooted in mastery of the foundational elements

_________
steamrollin'

  

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agentzero
Member since Apr 12th 2007
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Wed Jul-23-14 04:39 PM

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12. "thanks! always enjoy reading your posts"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

To people like US, a record is a piece of history. A moment in time.
Most people don't get it.

  

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kwez
Member since Aug 10th 2003
11774 posts
Wed Jul-23-14 04:53 PM

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14. "Ok, so this leads me to what I hope isn't a silly question"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

At it's extreme then, is it even possible that a free jazz piece titled "A" played by a group of musicians tonight, will be played the same way tomorrow night?

I mean, does the improvisation only happen during a recording session or does the music morph every time it's performed?

************************

  

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CalvinButts
Member since Jun 20th 2014
854 posts
Wed Jul-23-14 05:00 PM

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18. "RE: Ok, so this leads me to what I hope isn't a silly question"
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

>At it's extreme then, is it even possible that a free jazz
>piece titled "A" played by a group of musicians tonight, will
>be played the same way tomorrow night?

who wants to hear a piece of music played the same way every night?

that's the beautiful thing about jazz as a whole, it's always potentially brand new every time

and with your "free" stuff, there's so much going on that repeat listens are rewarding like nothing else i listen to

_________
steamrollin'

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Wed Jul-23-14 05:57 PM

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20. "With free jazz you have to be willing to not listen for the head"
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

The head = the recognizable part or that which identifies it as the song. It could still be there but you aren't listening for your favorite part of your favorite song. What you're listening for is the inspiration that happens in the moment, and that inspiration is not going to be the same from night to night. So if you bought a record and then went to the show, you should not be hoping to hear your favorite track on the album. You might hear an echo of it which helps draw you into the improvisation that follows, but if what you hear is exactly what was on the record it's not an improvised performance.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
astralblak
Member since Apr 05th 2007
20029 posts
Wed Jul-23-14 07:27 PM

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25. "lofl. damn you"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

.

  

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dalecooper
Member since Apr 07th 2006
3164 posts
Wed Jul-23-14 03:57 PM

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3. "I've had a contentious relationship with free jazz over the years"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

so maybe I'm a good person to ask, I dunno. Kind of an in-betweener on this subject.

How I got introduced to free jazz was the same way I got introduced to all jazz: a simple "overview of jazz" class in college that ran the gamut from Jellyroll Morton and Louis Armstrong to "Bitches Brew" and Ornette (and stopped roughly there, though I kept exploring on my own for years afterward). My first tastes of free jazz were:

The Shape of Jazz to Come (Ornette)
Ascension (Coltrane)

...and that was about it. I found the former intriguing, and the latter unlistenable. Which is still about how I feel.

With Ornette, you're listening for melody, I think. That guy is ALWAYS playing a melody, even when he's saying goodbye to changes and even the song's basic key. "Lonely Woman" is just a pretty tune, first and foremost, and that was my gateway drug to appreciating free jazz. Ornette had a few albums and a few tunes where he really cut loose and it's hard to follow. But for the most part, his material - and especially those classic quartet albums - are about worshiping the melody to the exclusion of all else, even the constraints of harmony and traditional chord structures. In a way he's the least radical of free jazz players, many of whom were basically terrorists against rhythm and tonality. Ornette was more like a dude following his own muse down a lonely, overgrown (but beautiful) path.

Coltrane's take on free jazz was part of his whole evolution from harmonic jazz to modal playing to completely out and atonal wildness. I find it easiest to digest in the midpoint between #2 and #3. If he starts with a modal head and rips into one of those darkly beautiful solos, and THEN takes it all the way out, it clicks with me. The energy of it makes sense. When he just blasts the paint off the walls from the start, I'm not usually into it. It always strikes me as a noble failure - I get what he's trying to do, but I can't imagine wanting to listen to it more than once. I need a seed of melody or scale or something to make it make sense, and to put the experimentation into perspective.

So you might guess from that that I have mixed feelings about Albert Ayler (sometimes really like him, sometimes don't), Cecil Tayler (not really a fan), and Sun Ra (his middle-of-the-road albums are some of my all-time favorite jazz, but his most outre stuff does little for me). To me, freedom is a cool concept but often results in pure noise if you insist on pushing it into a realm where there's no rhythm, no harmony, no melody, no NOTHING except instruments fighting each other to be heard. And I can hang with avant garde music that is quieter - John Cage type stuff - because the spareness and minimalism is more relaxing; I can also do atonal geniuses like Webern and Schoenberg, because their music feels crafted and alien rather than chaotic and noisy. It's just the really loud, abrasive free jazz at the very outer fringes that sometimes gives me fits.

--

  

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kwez
Member since Aug 10th 2003
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6. "Ive copied and pasted this post. Thanks for taking the time. Appreciated"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

************************

  

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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
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Thu Jul-24-14 06:43 AM

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35. "I'm the polar opposite with this:"
In response to Reply # 3
Thu Jul-24-14 06:55 AM by Jakob Hellberg

          

And I can hang with avant garde music
>that is quieter - John Cage type stuff - because the spareness
>and minimalism is more relaxing; I can also do atonal geniuses
>like Webern and Schoenberg, because their music feels crafted
>and alien rather than chaotic and noisy. It's just the really
>loud, abrasive free jazz at the very outer fringes that
>sometimes gives me fits.

While I like 20th century classical, I got into it from reading that it was an influence on Cecil and Dolphy and others and to *my* ears, it often sounds as if they are rejecting conventional tonalities and rhythm for the sake of it. Free-jazz, I hear as *expanding* conventional tonalities, rhythms etc.

It's worth pointing out that *very* little free-jazz is actually atonal. You might have different tonalities playing simultaneously or musicians going in of one tonality and into another and rhythms constantly changing but it is still more often than not rooted in conventional melody/harmony/etc. Like if you listen to that Cecil track up there; sure, he does those crazy runs and percussive clusters but the bulk of it is still firmly rooted in the chord-voicings, progressions etc. that you can find in ragtime, stride-playing, boogie-woogie etc. as well as modern ,post-bop jazz of course. And even when he was at his wildest, Coltrane was still arpeggiating functional chords, playing modes etc.; he just shifted tonalities more often than he did in the "My favorite Things"-era when he could stay in the same scale for like 15 minutes or when he was arpeggiating chords over a preset progression like he did with Monk, Miles or much of "Giant Steps". Basically, he was still playing like Coltrane, just changing at will rather than by any preset forms.

Of course, guys like Dolphy, Braxton and Roscoe Mitchell (AEOC) was self-consciously utilizing 12 tone techniques every now and then but all those guys were just as likely to rip out some bebop.

And I guess Cecil because of his dense chords and clusters might give up the most atonal feel of all "big" avantgardists but I actually think you can generally hear a tonal centre in both his chords and "melodies", even blues and shit, just very distorted and twisted due to the close voicings and dissonant colour-tones...

EDIT:Guys like Ayler and Sanders were of course often playing around with sheer *sound* and utilizing the "freak"-register of the instrument; that type of stuff is hard to put in a conventional tonal framework since the notes are so "distorted" and doesn't necessary resemble any tempered notes but on the other hand, those guys solo-constructions were generally very basic so I tend to hear them more as playing around with sheer sound and tonal distortions and throwing in a bit of conventional melody. Still, I don't know if it truly is atonal since they used "anchor-sounds" to base their phrases around so to speak

  

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dalecooper
Member since Apr 07th 2006
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Thu Jul-24-14 08:34 AM

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42. "Point taken about the tonality of most free jazz..."
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

...however, my ears don't hear what my brain knows to be true, a lot of times. Once you get to a point that so many modes or scales are being ripped through simultaneously, it becomes functionally atonal in my ears, and then I find myself looking for a life raft of some sort. That's why I find it easier to listen to Webern than a lot of Cecil Taylor's stuff, because the composition itself is the life raft. Even though Webern's music should be more foreign in nature and therefore more "difficult," it's actually Taylor's music that feels like I have to work at it too much to enjoy it.

--

  

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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
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Thu Jul-24-14 08:59 AM

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44. "Well, I always dug that ''atack from all angles''-approach..."
In response to Reply # 42


          

Not just in free-jazz but in stuff like P-funk as well when you have horn-riffs, vocal-chants, bootsys bass and Worell playing like three different keyboard lines on top off eachother-I just always dug that shit. Also, Beefheart clicked immediately for me as well and Public Enemy too when I was young.

I have bigger problems with "horisontal" complexity like when you have lots of changes *along* the time-line like in prog-rock and stuff; it often sounds wanky to me. Of course, I dig a lot of extreme metal that has lots of riffs- and tempo-changes compared with "regular" music but even there, I like it more when it sounds as if they are just going for creating a total, complete and dynamic headbanging experience with the structure rather than making it sound like "look at us! We are great musicians playing all this difficult stuff!" like in a lot of tech-death and proggy stuff overall...

Not to go on about Cecil but there is this "song" called "Holiday en masque" that lasts for 30 minutes that starts off quite accessible but in the last half, it just goes off into this EXTREMELY dense and abrasive polytonal colledctive improvisation. At first, I just heard it as a freak-out, as a way for the musicians to go off after the very structured and through-composed feel of the rest of the record but after a few listens, I started to hear that the different instruments all seemed to play variations of different melodies against eachother and the drums followed in an awesome matter and so onand it's NOW dope as fuck to me but it's just SO dense that I couldn't hear it on the first listening(s).

Basically, I think the sheer *density* and intensity of a lot of free/avantgarde jazz kind of obscures the brilliance of the interplay and even melodies and stuff; even "Ascension" is a lot like that even if it's a bit more primal I guess; they are clearly playing a series of modes during the collective improvs because you can easily hear when the tonal-center changes BUT it's like all instruments cancel eachothers individual lines out so you get this sheer mass of sound, like this simultaneously static *and* constantly changing soundfield.

I think it's pretty darn cool but a bit more "restraint" and less "peel the paint off the walls" would have led to an easier appreciation of the music rather than people just dismissing it as noise upon first (or second or third) listening or, on the opposite end, just saying that it great but it's like noise or Jackson Pollock and that is cool as "art"; opinions like the latter does more to hurt than to help IMO and is the reason why many go on about the emperors new clothes and the listeners being "duped" and shit...

  

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astralblak
Member since Apr 05th 2007
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Fri Jul-25-14 02:53 PM

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65. "I'm with Jakob"
In response to Reply # 44


  

          

you can break it down all you want. but when it comes through the speakers, some of the music comes across very atonal. their form distorts its function.

yeah, p-funk could do similar things, but the bass and drums ALWAYS kept you rooted in that bop, the rhythm.

to me, having to do that much work as a listener, in a way distorts the intent of music. it turns it from a body experience into a cerebral one.

it becomes some of the most pretentious art for arts sake ala Joyce with Finnigan's Wake, Robert Morris' minimalist sculptures, of the film's of Malick

they have merit no doubt, but they also have huge pitfalls

  

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mikediggz
Member since Dec 02nd 2003
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Wed Jul-23-14 04:06 PM

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4. "its not for everybody...some might even say its an acquired taste..."
In response to Reply # 0
Wed Jul-23-14 04:08 PM by mikediggz

  

          

i grew up on it as a child...my parents had it playing all the time. now i listen to the local npr station quite frequently. there are different types of jazz too. might just not be for u tho.

Edit: my bad i thought u were just talking about jazz in general.

  

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kwez
Member since Aug 10th 2003
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Wed Jul-23-14 04:19 PM

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7. "Yeah, just talking about free jazz. I love jazz music quite completely"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

But this free jazz thing is way, way, way too out there for me to even begin to understand what is going on.

************************

  

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CalvinButts
Member since Jun 20th 2014
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Wed Jul-23-14 04:35 PM

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10. "i'd venture to say you don't love jazz "completely" if there are not..."
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

at least a few "free" or "avant garde" albums among your favorites

what are some of your favorite jazz artists/albums?

_________
steamrollin'

  

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kwez
Member since Aug 10th 2003
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13. "Well then let me come clean and state that I'm new to the genre"
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

And have been digging up everything I can on jazz's roots and history first and foremost.

About two years in and I feel like I've only scratched the surface.

But I've been listening a lot to the great artists of the past, Parker, Davis, Gillespie, Rollins, Coltrane, Young etc...yes it's very cliche, but I can't NOT listen to these guys.

Being late, I'm swamped with all the music I have yet to discover, but it's a daily adventure digging all this stuff up.

I kind of came across free jazz almost by accident and that's when the record screeched.

************************

  

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CalvinButts
Member since Jun 20th 2014
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Wed Jul-23-14 04:56 PM

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16. "i've only really *seriously* gotten into jazz the last 2 yrs myself"
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

i mean i had the most well known albums as a teen

i had a post-bop phase (blue note really, early 60's) a few years back

but record digging for real these past coulla years has greatly expanded my knowledge about the music

you're not unique, that's why Ken Burns shit basically stopped at 1965 & skipped to Wynton's corny ass (love Wynton, really, but he's a cornball)

but unlike you, free jazz did not cause a record scratch or shock me

ok, maybe if you played some free shot for me a few years back i couldn'tve understood it

but once i picked up a few LPs, did some research & dug deeper into it & labels like ESP or BYG/Actuel or even ECM & Black Saint, along w/ the Impulse free stuff...

welp

all i can say is it actually opened my mind to whole new worlds of music & a deeper understanding & appreciation of jazz as a whole

_________
steamrollin'

  

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kwez
Member since Aug 10th 2003
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17. "Seen, and thanks."
In response to Reply # 16


  

          


************************

  

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mrhood75
Member since Dec 06th 2004
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Wed Jul-23-14 04:09 PM

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5. "I do like "Shape of Jazz to Come" quite a bit"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

"Lonely Woman" is my jam. I can sort of get into some of the Cecil Taylor stuff, but I admit that a lot of it is waaaay out there for me. I don't know if Sun Ra counts as free jazz or not, but he's got a lot of great albums. Not a huge fan of Coltrane's avant garde jazz period. Him and Pharaoh Sanders screaming "Aaaaaaaaaa!" on tracks doesn't do it for me.

-----------------

www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

  

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Deacon Blues
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Wed Jul-23-14 05:41 PM

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19. "RE: I do like "Shape of Jazz to Come" quite a bit"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

>"Lonely Woman" is my jam. I can sort of get into some of the
>Cecil Taylor stuff, but I admit that a lot of it is waaaay out
>there for me. I don't know if Sun Ra counts as free jazz or
>not, but he's got a lot of great albums. Not a huge fan of
>Coltrane's avant garde jazz period. Him and Pharaoh Sanders
>screaming "Aaaaaaaaaa!" on tracks doesn't do it for me.


I avoided the shape of jazz for a long time because of my preconceptions of free jazz, but when I did finally listen, it wasn't out there at all too me, probably if it had listen when first getting into jazz I wouldn't have got it but I like that album a lot, some times you just have to just keep listening ( with jazz you may not hear it all at first)

dude

  

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CalvinButts
Member since Jun 20th 2014
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Wed Jul-23-14 06:11 PM

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23. "there's a grip of "out" releases on Blue Note in the early 60's..."
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

that tread this line & are good releases for folks more into "normal" jazz to get acquainted with

Jackie McLean
Tony Williams
Bobby Hutcherson
Sam Rivers
Don Cherry (maybe a bit too out idk)
Cecil Taylor had a few BN albums
etc

_________
steamrollin'

  

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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
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Thu Jul-24-14 07:58 AM

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36. "Yeah, I ''always'' try to give this advice..."
In response to Reply # 23


          

Not that people *need* to like free-jazz of course, it's not different than any other type of music; sometimes I feel people (myself included) try too hard to make others dig this and it's sort of like NOTHING anyone said could make me dig Coldplay, U2 or Bob Dylan so why should I try to convince people about free-jazz-all music isn't for everyone; shit, Celine Dion, I don't get her *at all* and don't feel bad about it either...

However, for someone who is a bit interested but hasn't really managed to get into the genre, I do feel that this blue Note post-bop is a perfect gateway. Even some of Herbie's and Wayne Shorter's stuff from that era works (think "the Egg" on "Empyrean Isles" or much of "the Prisoner" for Herbie and Wayne's "the all-seeing eye")...

But yeah, Jackie McLean, Sam Rivers, Andrew Hill, Bobby Hutcherson, Grachan Moncur etc.-perfect introduction to many of the concepts while still being recognizable as perfectly "normal" jazz. Not so sure about Don Cherry's or-ESPECIALLY-Cecil's two albums on the label though, dope as they are...

  

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T Reynolds
Member since Apr 16th 2007
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Thu Jul-24-14 08:09 AM

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37. "yeah Shape of Jazz to Come is very digestable to me"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

I'm not a big free jazz fan, especially the current west coast iteration of it, but that album is wild melodic and well composed to me.

Anything that is extensively sampled (Mumbles, Blockhead) like that album has to have some type of structure / groove

  

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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
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Thu Jul-24-14 08:22 AM

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39. "Drummer Billy Higgins had a killer groove..."
In response to Reply # 37


          

That is one thing people overlook when dissing Coleman:Who was the drummer who was *the* go-to drummer for soul-jazz/dancey cuts like "Watermelon man" (Herbie) and "the Sidewinder" 8Lee Morgan)? It was Billy Higgins and where did he become famous? With Ornette!!!

Basically, as much as some of the critics and many musicians shitted on Coleman and Cherry, the rhythm-section with Higgins and Haden got nothing but props and both those guys became in demand session-musicians after they left Coleman's band.

Higgins only play on the first two Atlantic-records though and after that, it was Ed Blackwell who was a bit more radical and not as groovy (still swinging and keeping a beat but with more fills and collective improv). Great drummer too of course but Coleman definitely started to sound a tad bit more "difficult" and fractured after Higgins left...

  

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T Reynolds
Member since Apr 16th 2007
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Thu Jul-24-14 08:33 AM

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41. "Aw man I remember seeing Billy Higgins in Leimert Park"
In response to Reply # 39


  

          

can't remember if it was World Stage or 5th Street Dick's? I think the former.

I was in High School at the time, and my homegirl from Echo Park happened to know him as somewhat of a family friend. She was like "come check out this great man me and my mother know play the drums!", which is totally unheard of for young people in the 90's. Our generation was in tune to some jazz through hip-hop and our parents, but to go on a whim to check out a live show was not so common.

Immediately I just found that the audience, not just my friend and her mother, really LIKED Billy Higgins. He had developed personal relationships and a musical following from being accessible and likeable. When you think free-jazz you don't think of either of those adjectives, more likely the opposite.

Just a personal story that kind of supports your more detailed take of what he contributed musically.

  

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astralblak
Member since Apr 05th 2007
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Fri Jul-25-14 03:06 PM

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66. "cool story"
In response to Reply # 41


  

          

I seen / met Phil Raneline very much the same way around 2002

  

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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
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Fri Jul-25-14 06:48 PM

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76. "Cool story bro!!!"
In response to Reply # 41


          

Seriously, I dig it. Just want to add that I'm not sure Higgins was very into avantgarde to begin with; he played with Coleman and the other guys because he grew up with them and they needed a dope drummer and he did his fairly conventional thing with their "weird" music but after that, he was more-or-less firmly mainstream I think.

  

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mrhood75
Member since Dec 06th 2004
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Thu Jul-24-14 05:55 PM

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51. "Just wanted to give you props for the Mumbles reference"
In response to Reply # 37


  

          

That was the homie in high school.

-----------------

www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

  

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T Reynolds
Member since Apr 16th 2007
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Thu Jul-24-14 11:49 PM

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53. "Let me ask you a question though"
In response to Reply # 51


  

          

Why did this dude 'quit music and move to Morocco' after making one of the best under appreciated hip hop albums of all time?

Anyway that was the word on the street

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Fri Jul-25-14 07:39 AM

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54. "He released something two years ago"
In response to Reply # 53


  

          

http://www.discogs.com/Gone-Beyond-Mumbles-A-Duet-For-Space-And-Time/release/3442230

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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mrhood75
Member since Dec 06th 2004
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Fri Jul-25-14 11:44 AM

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57. "I think he got pretty disillusioned by the record biz"
In response to Reply # 53


  

          

>Why did this dude 'quit music and move to Morocco' after
>making one of the best under appreciated hip hop albums of all
>time?

Note: I have NO idea if he moved to Morocco.

However, from I heard, he kind of got jerked over "Book of Human Langauge". I have another friend who worked at Nu Gruv Alliance that said Mumbles used to call up the label to see if he could actually get paid for his contribution to the album. Apparently the other part of the partnership never really broke him off for his work. And I think that fucked with him, because a lot of those beats really were his life's work; he'd been working on some of them since he was in high school. So he got disillusioned, sold off his record collection (I un-knowingly bought some of his 45s and albums), and left the game.

As PL posted, he did come back and release another album, and most have reconcilled with Acey, because he's on a few tracks. I think that album is also on the first to feature Blu. I've never heard it, so I don't know if it's dope or not.

-----------------

www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Fri Jul-25-14 11:51 AM

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58. "It's not the album "
In response to Reply # 57


  

          

>As PL posted, he did come back and release another album, and
>most have reconcilled with Acey, because he's on a few tracks.
>I think that album is also on the first to feature Blu. I've
>never heard it, so I don't know if it's dope or not.

I think you're talking about the Transformations one, in which case I wouldn't call the acey tracks reconcilliation because if I'm not mistaken they date back to ABHL. What I linked above was a one off split vinyl he did two years ago.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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mrhood75
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60. "Huh, I haven't heard that one either"
In response to Reply # 58


  

          

And I guess it makes sense that the Acey tracks date back to ABHL; one of the songs is called "Courage Under Fire." That's very mucha late '90s song title.

Also hadn't realized the Mumbles album was on Sound in Color. I guess that explains the Blu appearance. And why it never got a full CD release.

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www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

  

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T Reynolds
Member since Apr 16th 2007
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61. "yeah Acey jerked dude I knew in High School who did "
In response to Reply # 57


  

          

3 beats off Accepted Eclectic. Didn't get paid for any of em.

Also I heard you gotta watch that dude around your girl lol

  

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astralblak
Member since Apr 05th 2007
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Fri Jul-25-14 03:12 PM

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67. "All those dudes are "real niggas" at heart"
In response to Reply # 61


  

          

this dude I worked with at summer camps in SF a few years back, grew up with Peace in the late 80s/early 90s in south central. Some of the stories he had about them boys, LOL.

coke, guns, gang banging, schizophrenia and a whole lot of free style sessions.

Myka still roaming around Los Angeles shirtless doing drugs at 40

  

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T Reynolds
Member since Apr 16th 2007
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71. "LMAO"
In response to Reply # 67


  

          

I think poster Isa said on here Peace's hood name was some real wild shit like Bullet, or Trigger Happy, or something, and that he was from Grape or some well known hood.

All I know is I saw that fool throw a motherfucker off a stage at Midnight Sun in 98

http://vimeo.com/13902157
right before this^^^, there's footage of the shit on youtube but I can't find it

Shit we know Jup was about that life lol

>Myka still roaming around Los Angeles shirtless doing drugs at
>40

LMAO^^^ for real

  

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astralblak
Member since Apr 05th 2007
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73. "It's kind of fitting that we're talking about them in this post"
In response to Reply # 71


  

          

cause for their art, their approach to rapping, is possibly the most "free" and unique ever in the realm of rap

  

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CalvinButts
Member since Jun 20th 2014
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Wed Jul-23-14 04:26 PM

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8. "*plays Revolutionary Ensemble all up in this bitch*"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

_________
steamrollin'

  

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johnbook
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21. "Yes n/m"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


THE HOME OF BOOK-NESS:
http://www.thisisbooksmusic.com/
http://twitter.com/thisisjohnbook
http://www.facebook.com/book1


http://i32.tinypic.com/kbewp4.gif
http://i60.tinypic.com/a59mp3.jpg

  

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astralblak
Member since Apr 05th 2007
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Wed Jul-23-14 07:36 PM

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26. "i knew imc and dale would be up in here"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

breaking down the science. they've spoken for me.

Cecil and Albert are mostly miss for me, but Ra, Impulse Coltrane, Alice and a few others gets lots of play from me

  

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Dr Claw
Member since Jun 25th 2003
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Wed Jul-23-14 08:28 PM

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27. "this makes me think of Jakob Hellberg"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

who called Cecil Taylor the GOAT...

sometimes, when played like this, this music makes me LMMFAO. it sounds like someone banging on a piano, but it's like... "controlled banging". like they KNOW what they're doing.

this is going to sound crazy, but it's like the classic animated flick, "Duck Amuck" to me. chaotic, absurd but entertaining.

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Wed Jul-23-14 08:44 PM

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28. "was gonna say this post ain't complete til Jakob drops the knowledge"
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

good to see you back around too.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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dalecooper
Member since Apr 07th 2006
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Wed Jul-23-14 09:51 PM

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29. "The banging is most definitely controlled"
In response to Reply # 27
Wed Jul-23-14 09:51 PM by dalecooper

  

          

Most free jazz players are guys who have been listening to and playing music non-stop for decades. So even as they're rejecting some or all of the basic tenets of straitlaced music as we know it, they're still doing musical things. Sometimes they're reacting against one or more aspects of music in a pointed form of experimentation - like stuffing chords inside each other, or playing solos against each other in different keys or with competing internal rhythms. Sometimes they're playing strictly with the less-appreciated musical ingredients - timbre, or rhythm in the most basic sense: sounds and the spaces between them, but without meter or pulse - and by divorcing these aspects from the constraints of melody and harmony and conventional rhythms, they can do something more striking and unique with them.

Most free jazz, and especially all free jazz by the greats mentioned in this thread, is still musical even as it comes off superficially as aggressively unmusical. That's what is cool about it, and as you give it repeated chances - especially if you come at it from a background steeped in music and jazz in particular - you might find something likable about some of it. I did eventually. Still not much of a fan of "Ascension" though.

--

  

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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
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Thu Jul-24-14 03:56 AM

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32. "Ascension is compositionally flawed."
In response to Reply # 29


          

The format of one collective improfvisation on a series of modes followed by an individual solo followed by a collective improv based on the same idea as the first followed by an individual solo and so on right until the end makes it pretty repetitive to sit through even if I still like it a lot mainly because of the sheer power of the collective improfvs coupled by killer solos by SOME of the participants (=on edition II:Trane (duh!), Sanders, Tchicai and Shepp and Tyner too I guess).

Also, it has a bad mix (well, there's only two tracks so it's not technically a mix, more of a recording) in that all the "softer" horns like trumpets and altos are in one speakers whereas the VERY intense tenors is in the other so someone fucked up there; I understand what they were going for and it's very "sixties" to record stereo like that (see also:a lot of rock and soul from the same era) and it frequencly works but this record was too dense for the approach; it sounds a bit unbalanced IMO.

Coleman's "Free ajzz" is heavily flawed too IMO and works even worse because there, there isn't even any dynamics between the collective and the solos in the first 25 minutes; rather, the *emphasis* shifts from one soloist to the other but they all drop in and since the rhythm-section is heavily tied down to specific "roles" (=one bassit playing quarter-notes, the other eight-notes, one drummer emphasising lower sounds, the other higher), it sort of just stand still, very much my problem with electric miles as well which, regardless of what Miles himself would say, sounds heavily aesthetically indebted to this record in terms of how to structure sound.

Cecil and Sun Ra were the ones who REALLY delivered the great, large-scale, "long" collective cuts in this era IMO simply due to the more "structured" and arranged pieces and I also like Albert Ayler and co.'s "New York eye and ear control" which admittedly sounds totally free but still works for me.

  

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dalecooper
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Thu Jul-24-14 08:37 AM

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43. "Oh yeah, forgot about Free Jazz"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

That's still my least favorite Ornette record even though it's considered one of the landmarks. It's actually one of the only significant Ornette albums I don't own.

--

  

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Austin
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30. "RE: I'd recommend Andrew Hill."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Any of his early run of albums on Blue Note is pretty great, though Point of Departure is usually considered the go-to album (and with good reason; it's wonderful).

Reason I bring Andrew Hill up is because he was one of those guys like Bobby Hutcherson or Harold Land that could chameleonize their playing and adapt to whatever style the session demanded. But they were always pushing boundaries and were a little bit "out" even on their tamest records (take Hill's Grassroots album, for example; the first cut is a straight soul jazz tune, but the rest of the album is back to Hill's usual in-but-slightly-out playing).

And plus, in an era when everybody either sounded like Duke Ellington, McCoy Tyner or Bill Evans, Andrew Hill had a very unique voice as a pianist.

And, I mean, yeah: the importance of "getting" Ornette on Atlantic can't really be understated. Shape of Jazz to Come is actually pretty tame compared to, say, Coltrane's Om.

Pleased to see this topic here.


``they asked me what the meek would get. picture me: afraid to answer.``

http://austinato.bandcamp.com

http://www.discogs.com/lists/Favorites-of-2014/193910

  

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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
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Sun Aug-10-14 03:03 AM

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86. "Not that it's necessary but..."
In response to Reply # 30


          

EVery Andrew Hill mention gets a co-sign from me; seriously one of my favourite artists ever. In the context of 60's jazz-piano, I'd put him behind Cecil (duh!) and Herbie. Otherwise, I think he's the absolute top of the hill and as you said, totally unique style that you'll recognize within seconds that also happens to be dope as fuck...

I've been trying to spread the gospel on Andrew for ten years now and the great thing is that people are starting to catch on (and no, I don't think *I* have anything to do with that, just saying it so I don't appear pompous). Like, he's getting props and there are Mosaic selects with unreleased sessions and everything; this dude was a giant, too unique too really work as a "sideman" and since his own albums flopped and he was only signed to Blue Note based on the taste of the label, he became an obscure cult-artist. The cool thing is that it has been changing; I read somewhere that the CD reissue of "Point of departure" actually sold better than the original album did in 65 which says a lot... He's like Herbie Nichols, just one "generation" later with all that it implies...

  

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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
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Thu Jul-24-14 03:42 AM

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31. "LOL, what?"
In response to Reply # 0
Thu Jul-24-14 03:43 AM by Jakob Hellberg

          

If it's *any* music you LISTEN to, it's free jazz; all the little details and shit. And I fail to see what's wrong with that Cecil-piece; I always thought his playing in that documentary is stellar and I fail to hear how it's not music:the performance is very much in line with his solo-performances where he bases his "improvisations" on little thematic fragments that gets varied in different combinations and permutations sometimes over a long period of time; it's a constructionist approach and the opposite of "chaos". Actually, their constructionist approach is what gives him and Sun Ra even if the latter took a different approach an edge over every other avantgarde artist of the era.

I also suspect it's the very nature of the instrument piano that makes people extra hostile:put a little kid in front of a piano and let it bang and it would of course be dissonant and dischordant chords and even clusterscoming out, thus, it "sounds" like Cecil but where is the structure? The organisation? The repetition and variation of themes? those almost superhumanly fast right-hand runs that hit every note clear and hard? A kid can not do that, actually, experienced musicians can't do that which is why not a single avantgarde pianist who tries to do similar shit even comes close:Cecil is to free-jazz (avantgarde-jazz is more appropriate) piano what Jimi was to the electric guitar and REALLY distinctive as well for a variety of reasons.


Listen to the portion that starts around 3.30:does that sound like someonje who doesn't know how to play? I hear *regular* jazz-chords, melody and everything. He then spazzes out every now and then with atonal and chromatic runs thrown in against the thematic variations and SOME of his playing is mure purely percussive than "melodic" or "harmonic" even if it is overstated. Jimi Hendrix also blended conventional playing with stuff that is more "sound" and even noise.

Either way, listen to those ten minutes again-it's a killer performance.

Cecil is my favorite musician by far but it might be a better idea to start with some of the stuff he did in 1960 or earlier: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thFyDVgMwRY

And if you want to hear him weith a band, the most accessible stuff that's not too early/conventional, i'd say is his three tracks on Gil Evans "Into the hot" (also reissued as part of a record called "Mixed" with Roswell Rudd):https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__R7TcRGavE

(BTW, Gil Evans and his orchestra has nothing to do with this; he simply gave Cecil three songs on his record since noone wanted to give Cecil a record-deal at the time).

On both these tracks,the music has a steady rhythm as opposed to a "free" or rubato-one and it gives the music more of a conventional jazz-feel than the stuff he would start doing already the next year.

As for Ornette Coleman and "Shape of jazz", if you think that one is unlistenable, i don't know what to say because that is one of the most accessible free-jazz albums I've heard.

  

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astralblak
Member since Apr 05th 2007
20029 posts
Fri Jul-25-14 03:27 PM

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68. "RE: LOL, what?"
In response to Reply # 31


  

          


>Cecil is my favorite musician by far but it might be a better
>idea to start with some of the stuff he did in 1960 or
>earlier: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thFyDVgMwRY
>
SOOOO GOOD. never heard before. thanks for sharing

  

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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
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Fri Jul-25-14 05:55 PM

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75. "Peep the whole album..."
In response to Reply # 68
Fri Jul-25-14 06:02 PM by Jakob Hellberg

          

"the world of Cecil Taylor" (Shepp plays on two tracks-his first sessions).

The sessions Cecil did for Candid (=this album and "New York City R%B" as well as numerous outtakes) are *mandatory* for people who view dude as this "emperors new clothes" guy who "dupes" people into digging him-he swings, grooves and just hauls ass while still being Cecil (=totally fucking sick)...

The impact of those sessions as well as Cecil's live-shows from the same era when his band was playing on (off?) broadway in the play "the Connection" can not be overstated; hje didn't really get to appear on (studio) records in his own name unmtil 66 after that and by that time, he was in space but the 60-61 shit??? Anyone who claim they dig Herbie or McCoy Tyner but hate Cecil is full of shit because both those guys would even admit that they picked up on what Cecil was doing then.
Again, dude's music might be challenging and "difficult" but in terms of the piano in jazz, he equals Jimi on the guitar-I'm 100% serious...

EDIT:Oh yeah, he's *literally* the only guy who makes me playc "air-piano"-that counts for something...

  

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kwez
Member since Aug 10th 2003
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Thu Jul-24-14 04:08 AM

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33. "A lot of great responses in here. Thanks. A lot to chew on now."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


************************

  

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lonesome_d
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Thu Jul-24-14 09:03 AM

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45. "I like it more academically than viscerally"
In response to Reply # 0


          

which should be no surprise... my thoughts are generally in line with dalecooper's above, though less well-informed.

-------
so I'm in a band now:
album ---> http://greenwoodburns.bandcamp.com/releases
Soundcloud ---> http://soundcloud.com/greenwood-burns

my own stuff -->http://soundcloud.com/lonesomedstringband

avy by buckshot_defunct

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Thu Jul-24-14 09:45 AM

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48. "Please comment on my free jazz quartet"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://concretesoundsystem.com/odon/

(if the page doesn't load proper fuck bots and then try again)

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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astralblak
Member since Apr 05th 2007
20029 posts
Fri Jul-25-14 03:32 PM

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70. "doesn't load. "
In response to Reply # 48


  

          

tried on my OLD laptop, and new tablet

  

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thebigfunk
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Thu Jul-24-14 10:31 AM

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49. "at the risk of sounding a bit flaky or cliched..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

Lots of good discussion and advice here...

the only thing I'd throw out there is that "free" jazz (i, like others, have problems with the label) is best experienced as a dedicated listen. I mean, you can have it play in the background or whatever, if it floats your boat, but in terms of "getting" it you have to let yourself really sink into it, which happens most if you're focusing on it.

((The same with a lot of other forms of radical or "avant garde" music...))

I like to think of it as immersion. Suspend your disbelief and sink into it, which isn't passive but *active*: ask yourself, what are they doing? Assume they have a vision, that they're not just fucking around. What is that vision? If it sounds like noise, it's probably supposed to sound like noise (at least at first listen): why should it sound like noise?

((Folks who are interested in this topic might be interested in a great interview with the composer John Luther Adams, whose own work usually works with either long waves of repetition and silence, or with long stretches of absolute cacophony. In the interview, he discusses how he has always been attracted by the music he just doesn't "get" ... and describes in a bit of detail his solution, which is basically repeated listening to find signposts or things to hang your hat on, and then to sink into the piece and find its larger intent... or something like that.

Interview is here: http://www.wqxr.org/#!/story/john-luther-adams-poor-career-choices-finding-home-alaska/

-thebigfunk

~ i could still snort you under the table ~

  

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Funkymusic
Member since Sep 19th 2008
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Thu Jul-24-14 04:59 PM

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50. "Charles Mingus' Ah Um is a great "free jazz" album"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

for starters to understand the sub-genre because although it is free, it still sounds songy to an extent. Also check out Neneh Cherry's The Cherry Thing. some good stuff on there as well.

signature pose.

  

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PoppaGeorge
Member since Nov 07th 2004
10384 posts
Thu Jul-24-14 06:27 PM

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52. "According to Patrick Star, grownups appreciate free form jazz"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLSsWyh2QFw


---------------------------

I miss Tha D... But I'll never move back there.


R.I.P. Disco D

  

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PCProductions
Member since Oct 31st 2009
1217 posts
Fri Jul-25-14 10:55 AM

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55. "I apparently know nothing about music"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Is what I've gathered from this thread.

  

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A Love Supreme
Member since Nov 25th 2003
3045 posts
Fri Jul-25-14 11:29 AM

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56. "you don't need to know anything to listen!"
In response to Reply # 55


          

to me, the beauty of music is when the musician/performer/composer/maker is conveying something so pure and raw that literally anyone can listen and really experience it immediately.

  

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stylez dainty
Member since Nov 22nd 2004
6732 posts
Fri Jul-25-14 11:52 AM

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59. "It sounds to me like life feels a lot of the time. "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

So at it's best I find it to be extremely honest music. But for me personally, it's too exhausting to listen to very often.

----
I check for: Serengeti, Zeroh, Open Mike Eagle, Jeremiah Jae, Moka Only.

  

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astralblak
Member since Apr 05th 2007
20029 posts
Fri Jul-25-14 03:28 PM

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69. "truthiness"
In response to Reply # 59


  

          

.

  

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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
9766 posts
Fri Jul-25-14 08:36 PM

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77. "Anyone interested in a ''guide'' through Cecil's discography?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I've noticedn throughout this thread that people in general seem to thimk Cecil is one of the wacker avantgardists, the type of dude that gives the genre a bad name. To me, he's the undisputed, uncompromising free-jazz GOAT for na variety of reasons and since I'm a big fan of the genre, I canšt help but feel a bit saddened by the responses...

Anyway, since Cecil is my favorite artist by far *and* i'm on vacation and I just love to discuss dudes music, it would be cool to start a Cecil-thread *within* this post but if tjere's no interest and "everyone" thinks he's a self-indulgent noise-maker, what's the point?'

Anyway, in case anyone cares, let me know and I will gradually write reviews of all his albums I've heard and shit and share
my* opinions (no offense to pinhead Scott Yanow but his reviews kind of suck; when I wrote "challenging but rewarding" as a headline of my admittedly wack review of "Unit Structures" on Amazon, it was meant as a piss-take (seriously, it was; if youv'e read any of Yanow's free-jazz reviews you'll get it...))...








  

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CalvinButts
Member since Jun 20th 2014
854 posts
Fri Jul-25-14 09:19 PM

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78. "i only have two Cecil Taylor albums"
In response to Reply # 77


  

          

one is an "early" set that's part of the Blue Note reissue series called "In Transition"

the other is "The Great Paris Concert" (quite a band i especially like Cyrille's music)

i like both of them but the latter is actually a pretty amazing listen, i haven't absorbed the first one i mentioned as much but it's very good

oh...both reviews on AM were written by Yanow lol

_________
steamrollin'

  

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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
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Fri Jul-25-14 09:59 PM

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79. "great Paris Concert is Student Studies (structures?), right?"
In response to Reply # 78


          

If so, it's awesome, Cyrille is a beast and the ideal drummer for Cecil but the bassist Alan Silva? What a sick fuck! I even bought some of his solo-albums based on his work with Cecil: let's just say that "Seasons" (=a 2.5 hour/3 LP long free-jazz symphony with the most abrasive last 20 minute (well, there's a mellow encore; I'm referring to the main track) imaginable) is one hell of a trip; it's on BYG/Actuel; I onnly play it once a year or so but when I do, it's a fucking ritual!!! It has everything_beauty, chaos, sci-fi, you name it...

His other album on BYG, "Lunar Surface", is cool too but more of a "noise"-record due to the combination of lo-fi production values and a massive wall of dissonant strings (basses, violins, cellos etc.) playing the same minimalist sicko-drone throughout. Not a very "jazzy" record in spite of Shepp and others ripping solos somwhere in the mess but from an avantgarfe/noise-perspective, it's really cool but "Seasons" is his winner...



















,,,,,,,,,

  

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CalvinButts
Member since Jun 20th 2014
854 posts
Sat Jul-26-14 09:33 AM

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83. "i've been meaning to dig into Silva stuff"
In response to Reply # 79


  

          

it's wild & his stuff is a bit intimidating

i have a track from the Jazzactuel comp but thats it under his name

anyone who recorded for ESP & Actuel is worth looking into though

_________
steamrollin'

  

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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
9766 posts
Fri Jul-25-14 10:31 PM

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80. "BTW, if you dig Cyrille..."
In response to Reply # 78


          

...you MUST check out "Akisakila" which is a trio-record with Cecil, Jimmy Lyons (dope and severely underrated altoist; his "Other afternoons"-record might on the low be the best record on BYG/Actuel!) and Cyrille.

Anyway, as soon as some japanese dude introduce the band, Cyrille goes in hardcore and stay that way for 80(!!!) minutes,; I haven't heard many drum-performances that can compete with that record in terms of sheer power/force. Initially, I dismissed this album as one of Cecil's "assault&battery"-type records but after spending a week with it, it came clear that it's a very well-structured performance, it just so happens that the intensity level is on 100% from the getgo and it never lets up; midblowing shit and Cyrille is just a force of nature...

  

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CalvinButts
Member since Jun 20th 2014
854 posts
Sat Jul-26-14 09:21 AM

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82. "i love the stuff i have w/ Cyrille"
In response to Reply # 80


  

          

and he's a guy that's made great music over several decades

Nuba w/ Lyons & Jeanne Lee
Burnt Offering w/ Lyons
Good to Go (a tribute to Bu)
Trio 3 albums w/ Lake & Workman

was on Afternoon of a Georgia Faun

just a quick few

_________
steamrollin'

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Sat Jul-26-14 09:06 AM

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81. "deserves its own post"
In response to Reply # 77


  

          

would love to read it.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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A Love Supreme
Member since Nov 25th 2003
3045 posts
Sat Jul-26-14 01:21 PM

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84. "do it!"
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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
9766 posts
Sat Aug-09-14 10:40 PM

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85. "BTW..."
In response to Reply # 0
Sat Aug-09-14 10:41 PM by Jakob Hellberg

          

http://www.mattweston.com/cecilpanel.html

A vintage round-table discussion from 1964 where Cecil-in full 60's Black power mode-aggressively defends the merits of "improvisation".

Personally, I think Cecil comes across as too much of a blow-hard here but at the same time, his opponents are pretty much asking for it. Seriously, the first time I read this years ago on a now defunct site, I just *knew* that Cecil would snap at them referring to classical as "serious" music and indeed, he did (rightfully so but still...)!

Otherwise, pretty much everything he says is on point and right along the lines of *my* ideas of music and it also shows why he was free-jazz prime intellectual; put Ayler in this context and he would be like "It's all about the spirits man, just follow the sound! God lives in all of us". Shepp would have been strictly Marxist/Black power rhetoric.

Coltrane? If you read any Coltrane interview, you know how hopeless he would have been, dude was excusing himself for people not liking his music...

Sun Ra? LOL! Actually, I would have loved to read Ra in this context but since it's 64, I can't imagine it making much sense whatsoever...

As for the Cecil-reviews, I've been to Halmstad for vacation and just came back, I *will* write them but I don't want it to become a chore/obligation but more of a fun thing so expect them to drop every now and then...

  

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agentzero
Member since Apr 12th 2007
1907 posts
Mon Aug-11-14 06:33 AM

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91. "really great read! do you have more similar texts?"
In response to Reply # 85


  

          

To people like US, a record is a piece of history. A moment in time.
Most people don't get it.

  

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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
9766 posts
Sun Aug-10-14 04:07 AM

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87. "Oh yeah, if you want to hear ''mellow'', moody, athmospheric free-jazz....."
In response to Reply # 0
Sun Aug-10-14 04:24 AM by Jakob Hellberg

          

Peep Bill Dixon. I know I namedropped him before numerous times but this feels like a new context. Dixon (R.I.P) was born as early as 1925 and pretty much had his moody, heavily arranged concept of "free-jazz" defined as early as the 50's-60's even if I don't thyink it comes through in his earliest sessions with Archie Shepp which is more Ornette-worship(free-bop and dope if you dig that stuff (and who doesn't?) but it's the later stuff that REALLY nails home his individuality ande distinctiveness that comes through even when he doesn't play trumpet but instead play piano (an instrument he doesn't even try to improvise on; he use it in its most conventional, chordal sense).

Anyway:

Intents and Purposes-his only "pure" solo album in the 60's and it's one of the best "free"-records I've ever heard; amazing band, killer ideas in terms of composition/arrangement (in Dixon's case, those terms are impossible to separate, just as it should be in free-jazz).Also, two brief early examples of the "studio as instrument" in jazz with Dixon overdubbing himself in two brief meditative/ambient pieces.

In Italy olume 1 and 2. Astonishingly good albums from the early 80's; EERYTHING that's good about Dixon can be found here. Note that about a half or so of these tracks are duets between Dixon (trumpet) and Silva (bass) which might seem boring but if you actually listen (and I mean *listen*, like you follow every note they play as oppose to play it as background music), it's incredibly dope...

Eye of sysyphus: VERY dark and moody stuff by a fairly big band; agaqin, Dixon delivers some "free-jazz" that sounds like nothing else in the genre; actually, just get the boxset with Dixon on Soul Note like I did and your'e set...

Of course, there's also the infamous, allegedly totally "free" improvisations on the celebrated "ade mecum"-records but even in *that* context (think Tony Oxley, Barry Guy, William Parker-*heavyweight* line-up if you know the ''contemporary'' imrpov scene), Dixon just sounds different from everything else associated with the genre...

The reason I mention Dixon is simply because his perspective on free-jazz may make people change their idea of it because it's NOT overtly dense, abrasive, "noisy" music but instead downbeat, quirky and dark... His perspective was totally his own and I love to recommend him to people new to the genre because he offered something different fromc the "general" idea of free-jazz...

EDIT:SON of sysyphus; I thought I managed to make one long post without having to edit but nope... If there will be an AC/DC albums thread, I *think* I'll make it... or I'll be so drunk that I need to edit spelling/grammar; after all, who can play AC/DC sober???

  

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A Love Supreme
Member since Nov 25th 2003
3045 posts
Sun Aug-10-14 11:39 AM

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89. "*like*"
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Buck
Member since Feb 15th 2005
16151 posts
Sun Aug-10-14 11:02 AM

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88. "I listen sometimes."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I like jazz.

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
11281 posts
Mon Aug-11-14 03:19 AM

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90. "This was a great thread."
In response to Reply # 0


          

Good reading here. I'm not very knowledgable about this genre so I learned some stuff.

  

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