That other post didn't go exactly as I think we all hoped so let's try here.

I often wonder about this, being a man of a certain age and a fan of certain types of rappers. To preface this, my top 5 of all time is in this order: Rakim, KRS-1, Big Daddy Kane, Kool G Rap and Slick Rick.

Of that group, it would be very fair to say the only one of those MCS that updated their style to fit today's times comfortably was Kool G Rap, with KRS-1 a close second. Rakim struggles to hit his timing on recent songs and he sounds largely disconnected. Big Daddy Kane's bars have present ability but not the ferocity of before. Slick Rick has put out the sparest amount of material in the group, so I haven't much evaluation there.

I think, and this is my very personal viewpoint, rapping at a high level is just impossible to sustain over years UNLESS you have that uncanny knack to disregard patterns and challenge yourself. Monch is the greatest example of an over-40 MC with two decades in that really continues to sound good and if we're honest, he didn't tweak his style THAT much.

But then that brings me to someone like Canibus. It's no doubt he has the bars to compete with anyone but there's just a lack of connection. I wonder if it's just a "jaded" sense of being with some rappers and not really a loss of ability. Why wouldn't Kane's 88-90 style not work in today's market over today's production? KRS-1's early BDP styles actually helped to usher in a lot of what we hear today, but he's gone super aggressive to the point of being over the top.

Why didn't this same thing effect DOOM or Kool Keith, both over 40, both with over 20 years in this. It's the same thing I believe. Some rappers are just going to do what they can and damn innovation. Some just lose that connection.

Anyway, add on, tell me I'm wack, whatever it is we do here now. But let's talk about it.

*********************
www.dumhi.com -- We are ALL dumhi

I think people would be kidding themselves at this point if they can't acknowledge the decline of technical skill in today's rappers. Even the 'top-tier' rappers that dominate radio are far less proficient on the mic. I get the gripes of older fans when they bring this up. After all, Nas wasn't even in his 20s when he penned Illmatic.

To make problems worse, there aren't really any true gatekeepers anymore. Everyone has a mouthpiece and can be heard. While that opens up the playing field and can bring recognition to rappers or regions that are overlooked, it also causes an influx of absolute trash getting through.

I'd say the 90s at least had a workable structure to it all. DJs would tell you what was hot.....and they'd actually cut off wack shit. That just does not happen anymore. That's why I smh at stations like Hot97 when they try to pretend that they still can dictate what's hot by trying to 'represent the culture'. The same station that would test someone like Riff Raff or Trinidad James won't hold a Jay-Z, Rick Ross or Lil Wayne accountable for dropping a subpar project. Bloggers have that role now (and they can be influenced too).

Rap magazines used to help weed out the wack stuff too. XXL was always on some corporate shit but The Source and Vibe started out with better intentions but now are less than shadows or their former selves.

It ain't hard to tell how the palate of this generation just changed. The same thing happened in both black film and black lit where past creators were technically more proficient at their craft and held to higher standards by the media outlets that surrounded them.

>I think people would be kidding themselves at this point if
>they can't acknowledge the decline of technical skill in
>today's rappers. Even the 'top-tier' rappers that dominate
>radio are far less proficient on the mic. I get the gripes of
>older fans when they bring this up. After all, Nas wasn't
>even in his 20s when he penned Illmatic.
>

There's still top tier MC'ing happening though. People hate; Drake has bars, Wayne got on top when he was actually spitting, TI, Kendrck, etc..rand even someone like Kanye (personal opinion on production values aside) has improved over the years.

Yeah, rapping overall has declined on the RADIO if you're too lazy to dig, but to rise above the mid tier billboard hip-hop&R&B chaff of your Migos's etc...solid MC'ing helps alot unless you have consistent fantastic production and hook writing. It's not as if of the recent 'King of the World' Mc's have been supar, even Rawse's s run, while less technically proficient as far as flows were concerned, had solid lines and got by on the 'voice'(c)Guru that some other MC's costed by back in the days.


>It ain't hard to tell how the palate of this generation just
>changed. The same thing happened in both black film and black
>lit where past creators were technically more proficient at
>their craft and held to higher standards by the media outlets
>that surrounded them.

Thoroughly disagree here, the black lit comment is almost offensive(as I am sure Mash Comp would agree). Fuck you, lol.

Of course you can find good stuff if you're willing to dig. The point is that the good stuff was more likely to get put on the radio before and it's not now. I think rappers like Wayne and Drake could make better songs and albums but they give us what works for them financially.

And I'm standing by my argument across the board even with black literature because the good stuff doesn't get talked about nearly as much.

>Of course you can find good stuff if you're willing to dig.
>The point is that the good stuff was more likely to get put on
>the radio before and it's not now. I think rappers like Wayne
>and Drake could make better songs and albums but they give us
>what works for them financially.


>And I'm standing by my argument across the board even with
>black literature because the good stuff doesn't get talked
>about nearly as much.

and I put good in quotes; We may see a bunch of hood lit books being sold on the local Malcolm X blvd but when it comes to black books that SELL (aka Nytimes bestsellers) it ALWAYS an extremely well written book by a talented writer.

NOW we dig deeper they tend to be the same fucking narratives over and over (the immigrant/hood dude adjusting to the new white world!). Basically white readers only like tales of the noble savage rising above his meager beginnings and assimilating, lol. But to say it's not good is 100% wrong, its just played.

And while some of the top rappers have thumbed down their flows, lets not act like previous 'top tier' rappers who broke the mainstream didn't do the same (Biggie-Hypnotize, Snoop Dogg-Who Am I, Tupac-every song he made a video for) etc.

You're basically critiquing big mainstream rappers for being...big mainstream rappers.

>I think people would be kidding themselves at this point if
>they can't acknowledge the decline of technical skill in
>today's rappers. Even the 'top-tier' rappers that dominate
>radio are far less proficient on the mic. I get the gripes of
>older fans when they bring this up. After all, Nas wasn't
>even in his 20s when he penned Illmatic.
>

Ok, this I can get with. Although, I happen to think Lil Wayne, Drake, T.I. and a handful of other "radio-ready" rappers have skill and we shouldn't deny that just because their on terrestrial air.


>To make problems worse, there aren't really any true
>gatekeepers anymore. Everyone has a mouthpiece and can be
>heard. While that opens up the playing field and can bring
>recognition to rappers or regions that are overlooked, it also
>causes an influx of absolute trash getting through.
>

Now this is interesting. As a fan, I'm happy with the influx as I consume a lot of music but I don't remember much and what I go back to usually has to be so impressive that it cannot be denied. And it happens on a rarer scale these days. HOWEVER, I still enjoy the music.

>I'd say the 90s at least had a workable structure to it all.
>DJs would tell you what was hot.....and they'd actually cut
>off wack shit. That just does not happen anymore. That's why
>I smh at stations like Hot97 when they try to pretend that
>they still can dictate what's hot by trying to 'represent the
>culture'. The same station that would test someone like Riff
>Raff or Trinidad James won't hold a Jay-Z, Rick Ross or Lil
>Wayne accountable for dropping a subpar project. Bloggers
>have that role now (and they can be influenced too).
>

As a working music writer and journalist, I have people asking me for favors. I never done so in my 16 years as a writer. But I see your point.

>Rap magazines used to help weed out the wack stuff too. XXL
>was always on some corporate shit but The Source and Vibe
>started out with better intentions but now are less than
>shadows or their former selves.
>

Couldn't agree more.

>It ain't hard to tell how the palate of this generation just
>changed. The same thing happened in both black film and black
>lit where past creators were technically more proficient at
>their craft and held to higher standards by the media outlets
>that surrounded them.

Now this...I don't know as those aren't my lanes. But as Reg said, I don't know how any of this really addresses the ability of a GOOD RAPPER becoming a WACK RAPPER. I answered your post because you brought up some stuff I found interesting but the OP is another angle.

Let's focus on that.

*********************
www.dumhi.com -- We are ALL dumhi

>Ok, this I can get with. Although, I happen to think Lil
>Wayne, Drake, T.I. and a handful of other "radio-ready"
>rappers have skill and we shouldn't deny that just because
>their on terrestrial air.

and This

>Now this is interesting. As a fan, I'm happy with the influx
>as I consume a lot of music but I don't remember much and what
>I go back to usually has to be so impressive that it cannot be
>denied. And it happens on a rarer scale these days. HOWEVER, I
>still enjoy the music.

It takes all kinds to make up a world, son. -My pops

I just live for the comments -Da wiz

I'd say the 90s at least had a workable structure to it all. DJs would tell you what was hot.....and they'd actually cut off wack shit. That just does not happen anymore.


i dont have colors
my mmsic:
www.soundclick.com/sylana
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Brb8g8f18xE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NgNuVHrEKI

Like any other sport you can only play at your peak for a limited amount of time. It's not just am issue for the over 40 crowd either.
Most emcees debuted in their teens or early 20's and the entire arch of their career lasted 5 years max.

They make it look easy but it is not, I'm reminded of this when I listened to biggie and craig mack "freestyle" for flex. biggie was hesitant to flow and all of his were written, they would become verses from ready to die. When craig mack entered he upped the ante and biggie got out of there as quickly as possible. By doing that he was able to maintain the mystique and not have to go off the top of his head.

The problem with that approach is that we still believe that the majority of emcees are performing at these high levels when they are not.


>That other post didn't go exactly as I think we all hoped so
>let's try here.
>
>I often wonder about this, being a man of a certain age and a
>fan of certain types of rappers. To preface this, my top 5 of
>all time is in this order: Rakim, KRS-1, Big Daddy Kane, Kool
>G Rap and Slick Rick.
>
>Of that group, it would be very fair to say the only one of
>those MCS that updated their style to fit today's times
>comfortably was Kool G Rap, with KRS-1 a close second. Rakim
>struggles to hit his timing on recent songs and he sounds
>largely disconnected. Big Daddy Kane's bars have present
>ability but not the ferocity of before. Slick Rick has put out
>the sparest amount of material in the group, so I haven't much
>evaluation there.
>
>I think, and this is my very personal viewpoint, rapping at a
>high level is just impossible to sustain over years UNLESS you
>have that uncanny knack to disregard patterns and challenge
>yourself. Monch is the greatest example of an over-40 MC with
>two decades in that really continues to sound good and if
>we're honest, he didn't tweak his style THAT much.
>
>But then that brings me to someone like Canibus. It's no doubt
>he has the bars to compete with anyone but there's just a lack
>of connection. I wonder if it's just a "jaded" sense of being
>with some rappers and not really a loss of ability. Why
>wouldn't Kane's 88-90 style not work in today's market over
>today's production? KRS-1's early BDP styles actually helped
>to usher in a lot of what we hear today, but he's gone super
>aggressive to the point of being over the top.
>
>Why didn't this same thing effect DOOM or Kool Keith, both
>over 40, both with over 20 years in this. It's the same thing
>I believe. Some rappers are just going to do what they can and
>damn innovation. Some just lose that connection.
>
>Anyway, add on, tell me I'm wack, whatever it is we do here
>now. But let's talk about it.

does it really matter?

vote for bin: http://tinyurl.com/qz8zep5

>Like any other sport you can only play at your peak for a
>limited amount of time. It's not just am issue for the over 40
>crowd either.
>Most emcees debuted in their teens or early 20's and the
>entire arch of their career lasted 5 years max.
>

So how do we explain the Black Thoughts, Monchs, hell...Masta Ace and others?

>They make it look easy but it is not, I'm reminded of this
>when I listened to biggie and craig mack "freestyle" for flex.
>biggie was hesitant to flow and all of his were written, they
>would become verses from ready to die. When craig mack entered
>he upped the ante and biggie got out of there as quickly as
>possible. By doing that he was able to maintain the mystique
>and not have to go off the top of his head.
>
>The problem with that approach is that we still believe that
>the majority of emcees are performing at these high levels
>when they are not.

But to me, I feel like MCing at a high level can be done for as long as the rapper feels engaged and connected to do so. Hence, in my OP, someone like Canibus shouldn't be as..."normal" as he is now because he still knows how to do the rapping part but other elements seem to be gone like focus, direction, beat selection, hooks (always his weakness). He's not even beasting like he was. I'm looking more at that.

*********************
www.dumhi.com -- We are ALL dumhi

..so some of these rappers aren't really even in tune to the latest trends to update their cadences/rhyme schemes..also some of it might be a conscious decision not to switch up..for instance, right now there are 2 vanguards of rap flows:

1. rap really fast so people can say you're "killin' it!"; see eminem, kendrick

2. rap in the latest southern style..it was rick ross a few years ago..then 2 chainz..then migos..next it'll probably be young thug

so some people might say fuck it..ima stick to my guns..so i don't think it's a loss of lyrical skills as much as it's a rhyme scheme/flow pattern choice

*Watch my gay ol' music video: "HAM" http://youtu.be/0GKoEGDPirU
*Listen to my gay ol' song: "Yes Homo" http://youtu.be/_1H30pzN7cE
*Stream/download my gay ol' mixtape: http://cformusic.com/

>..so some of these rappers aren't really even in tune to the
>latest trends to update their cadences/rhyme schemes..also
>some of it might be a conscious decision not to switch up..for
>instance, right now there are 2 vanguards of rap flows:
>

>1. rap really fast so people can say you're "killin' it!"; see
>eminem, kendrick
>

Which, in my opinion, is so cheap to me. I mean ok Monch does it sometimes, but his bars are still potent when he slows down.

>2. rap in the latest southern style..it was rick ross a few
>years ago..then 2 chainz..then migos..next it'll probably be
>young thug
>

Fake southern accents grate on me hard.

>so some people might say fuck it..ima stick to my guns..so i
>don't think it's a loss of lyrical skills as much as it's a
>rhyme scheme/flow pattern choice

I like the idea of this. Like El Da Sensei is not challenging himself but he picks decent raps and raps just ok enough to not ruin stuff but he sounded more "engaged" as a younger man. His mans Tame, smoking and drugs and all, sounded fresher with age.

*********************
www.dumhi.com -- We are ALL dumhi

The early golden age rappers era was just too early in the evolution of rap for them to keep up with all the changes taking place. It's like they were there in its adolescence and after puberty was finished they just didn't belong in that world anymore.

I think one of the reasons that one of the rappers most noted for his longevity, LL, was able to come out of that era and adapt was his young age. Being that he was only 16 when his first album dropped, he was young enough to still adapt once hip hop reached "adulthood".

A lot of the rappers that hit their primes in the early nineties and later are still relevant today because by that time the beats, flows, techniques, cadences, etc. had all evolved to a certain point that still has not changed too drastically, or at least as much as it had compared to rap's first decade in the eighties.

That and the fan base had been established enough that hip hop wouldn't just be for the youth and the fans would follow those same artists for as long as they kept making quality music. From Q-Tip to Wu to Kast to Jay & Nas, as long as they keep making music fans will support even into retirement ages.

Rappers fall off for a variety of reasons. Some due to lack of talent, some due to a failure to evolve, some because they were just a flash in the pan and were byproducts of fads, others because of drugs/personal drama or issues. As far as the emcees named in the OP, I think they were just trapped in an era that changed to quickly for them to keep up.

_________________________________________

>The early golden age rappers era was just too early in the
>evolution of rap for them to keep up with all the changes
>taking place. It's like they were there in its adolescence and
>after puberty was finished they just didn't belong in that
>world anymore.
>

Great observation.

>I think one of the reasons that one of the rappers most noted
>for his longevity, LL, was able to come out of that era and
>adapt was his young age. Being that he was only 16 when his
>first album dropped, he was young enough to still adapt once
>hip hop reached "adulthood".
>

He's a good example of a veteran molding the best of his gifts with the times...and doing so in shifting eras.

>A lot of the rappers that hit their primes in the early
>nineties and later are still relevant today because by that
>time the beats, flows, techniques, cadences, etc. had all
>evolved to a certain point that still has not changed too
>drastically, or at least as much as it had compared to rap's
>first decade in the eighties.
>

Your Raekwons, your Heltah Skeltahs, your De La Souls maybe?

>That and the fan base had been established enough that hip hop
>wouldn't just be for the youth and the fans would follow those
>same artists for as long as they kept making quality music.
>From Q-Tip to Wu to Kast to Jay & Nas, as long as they keep
>making music fans will support even into retirement ages.
>

Jay-Z lately has lost a lot of his zip, although he got some of it back on that Jeezy song.

>Rappers fall off for a variety of reasons. Some due to lack of
>talent, some due to a failure to evolve, some because they
>were just a flash in the pan and were byproducts of fads,
>others because of drugs/personal drama or issues. As far as
>the emcees named in the OP, I think they were just trapped in
>an era that changed to quickly for them to keep up.

Thanks for the response, my man.

*********************
www.dumhi.com -- We are ALL dumhi

KRS a close 2nd?? He has sounded outdated the last 15 yrs. That song with Kanye, Ra and Nas...he sounded horrible. Most people 30 and under like him the least from the Golden Era MCs. He'll bring it here and there but he sounds the worst of the Golden Era

I agree with you on Rakim sounding disconnected but his timing is still sharp just not as sharp as the past. And it still sounds like it comes easy to him. Lyrics and rhyme patterns are still sharp.

G Rap was doing his thing appealing to the times but mainly because of his subject matter but times have moved away from gangsta sh!t and seems disconnected the last few yrs and albums.

Like U said Slick just doesn't seem to want make any music but when he does he is great.

Kane still got that spit but he hasn't really sounded comfortable with his style he's had for the past 15 yrs. He's hit or miss with the lyrics but when he hits it's damaging.

Motivation is always the key for them. Need to get with the right producer(s)

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