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Reuben
Member since Mar 13th 2006
1857 posts
Fri Jul-04-14 05:41 AM

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"The Pernicious Rise of Poptimism (swipe)"


  

          

has this been discussed before?

begin swipe

Not too long ago, I completed the annual music geek’s ritual of filling out my ballot for The Village Voice’s vaunted Pazz & Jop poll. During the past 40 years, The Voice has surveyed critics on their favorite albums and singles in an effort to create something approaching a consensus. In scrambling to put together a Top 10 list that I could live with, I poked through my iTunes playlists, looked at other critics’ 10-bests (it’s allowed!) and flipped through essays by everyone from The New Yorker’s Sasha Frere-Jones to the tastemakers at Pitchfork. My survey of 2013’s critical landscape only reinforced something I’ve suspected for some time now: Music criticism has gotten really weird.

The New Yorker devotes pages to praising the comeback album by Britney Spears. Eight of the 12 essays in last year’s Slate Music Club focused primarily on the kinds of artists normally found on the Billboard Hot 100. (One was actually about the Billboard Hot 100 itself.) The higher reaches of the 2013 Pazz & Jop singles list were dominated by artists like Lorde, Robin Thicke and Icona Pop. The fourth-best album was Beyoncé’s December surprise, which had already prompted a near-avalanche of 140-character hosannas and substantially longer think pieces.

A Grantland article published a few months ago was illustrative of this new mode of critical thought. The author described being disappointed with the new Beyoncé album after having listened to it some 20 times, before eventually changing his mind and pleading guilty to deviations from orthodoxy. “I was wrong to say that I didn’t like the Beyoncé album after two days,” he wrote, eventually concluding by admonishing any others who had not yet seen the light: “If you don’t like the new Beyoncé album, re-evaluate what you want out of music.”

The reigning style of music criticism today is called “poptimism,” or “popism,” and it comes complete with a series of trap doors through which the unsuspecting skeptic may tumble. Prefer Queens of the Stone Age to Rihanna? Perhaps you are a “rockist,” still salivating over your old Led Zeppelin records and insisting that no musical performer not equipped with a serious case of self-seriousness and, probably, a guitar, bass and drums is worthy of consideration. Find Lady Gaga’s bargain basement David Bowie routine a snooze? You, my friend, are fatally out of touch with the mainstream, with the pop idols of the present. You are, in short, an old person. Contemporary music criticism is a minefield rife with nasty, ad hominem attacks, and the most popular target, in recent years, has been those professing inadequate fealty to pop.

Poptimism is a studied reaction to the musical past. It is, to paraphrase a summary offered by Kelefa Sanneh some years ago in The New York Times in an article on the perils of “rockism”: disco, not punk; pop, not rock; synthesizers, not guitars; the music video, not the live show. It is to privilege the deliriously artificial over the artificially genuine. It developed as an ideology to counteract rockism, the stance held by the sort of critic who, in Sanneh’s words, whines “about a pop landscape dominated by big-budget spectacles and high-concept photo shoots” and reminisces “about a time when the charts were packed with people who had something to say, and meant it, even if that time never actually existed.”
Continue reading the main story

Poptimism wants to be in touch with the taste of average music fans, to speak to the rush that comes from hearing a great single on the radio, or YouTube, and to value it no differently from a song with more “serious” artistic intent. It’s a laudable goal, emerging in part from the identity politics of the 1990s and in part from a desire to undo the original sin of rock ’n’ roll: white male performers’ co-opting of established styles and undeservedly receiving credit as musical innovators. Jody Rosen, a music critic I admire greatly, admitted as much in Slate in 2006, writing that “many of my colleagues, like me, have embraced the anti-rockist critique with particular fervor as a kind of penance, atoning for past rockist misdeeds — for the party line we’d swallowed whole in our formative years and maybe even parroted under our bylines.”

Rosen is describing poptimism as a reaction to what I think of as “Rolling Stone disease,” whereby Bob Dylan and Bruce Springsteen were treated as geniuses and the likes of Marvin Gaye and Madonna as mere pop singers. Obviously there should be no test of race or gender in musical immortality. But now the reaction has swamped the initial problem and created a wildly distorted version of the music world in 2014, as reflected in the way it’s covered.

Poptimism now not only demands devotion to pop idols; it has instigated an increasingly shrill shouting match with those who might not be equally enamored of pop music. Disliking Taylor Swift or Beyoncé is not just to proffer a musical opinion, but to reveal potential proof of bias. Hardly a week goes by in music-critic land without such accusations flying to and fro. In one particularly ugly contretemps a few years back, led by prominent critics, the indie hero Stephin Merritt of the Magnetic Fields was accused of being a racist for expressing his appreciation for the song “Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah,” from the (actually racist) Disney musical “Song of the South,” and his general dislike of hip-hop.

The music historian Ted Gioia recently argued in a pointed Daily Beast article that “music criticism has turned into lifestyle reporting,” more interested in breakups and arrests than in-depth musical analysis. He has a point, although the culprit is not rampant musical illiteracy on the part of critics or the factthat not everyone is Lester Bangs reincarnate, as he suggests. The problem may very well be that music criticism has become so staunchly descriptivist.

I spend most of my time, professionally speaking, writing about movies and books, and during quiet moments, I like to entertain myself by imagining what might happen if the equivalent of poptimism were to transform those other disciplines. A significant subset of book reviewers would turn up their noses at every mention of Jhumpa Lahiri and James Salter as representatives of snobbish, boring novels for the elite and argue that to be a worthy critic, engaged with mass culture, you would have to direct the bulk of your critical attention to the likes of Dan Brown and Stephenie Meyer. Movie critics would be enjoined from devoting too much of their time to “12 Years a Slave” (box-office take: $56 million) or “The Great Beauty” ($2.7 million), lest they fail to adequately analyze the majesty that is “Thor: The Dark World” ($206.2 million). What if New York food critics insisted on banging on about the virtues of Wendy’s Spicy Chipotle Jr. Cheeseburger? No matter the field, a critic’s job is to argue and plead for the underappreciated, not just to cheer on the winners.
Continue reading the main story
Continue reading the main story
Continue reading the main story

The issue is not attention — any critic who ignored mass taste entirely would be doing his or her readers a disservice — so much as it is proportion. Music critics are as snobbish as any other variety of critic, but lately, their snobbishness has been devoted to demonstrating just how unsnobbish they are. Given Katy Perry’s string of No. 1 hits, a well-honed argument about her appeal is a welcome addition to the musical conversation. But should gainfully employed adults whose job is to listen to music thoughtfully really agree so regularly with the taste of 13-year-olds?

Poptimism has become a cudgel with which to selectively club music that aims for something other than the whoosh of an indelibly catchy riff. Its Kryptonite is indie rock, subjected to repeated assaults for its self-seriousnessand rockist fervor. Bands? With guitars? And sometimes with beards? Don’t ever tell a poptimist critic that you love the Strokes’ later albums or think the National are geniuses (guilty on both counts). “Rock music,” Slate’s Carl Wilson sniffed when reviewing the National’s most-recent album, “has died and gone to graduate school.”

So why is music criticism more or less alone in this affectation? Unlike those other disciplines, it has had to wrestle with the fact that music is now effectively free. Music criticism’s former priority — telling consumers what to purchase — has been rendered null and void for most fans. In its stead, I believe, many critics have become cheerleaders for pop stars.

It is no accident that poptimism is an Internet-era permutation. Obsessive coverage of stars like Drake and Justin Bieber drives Web traffic in a way that more judicious, varied coverage of the likes of, say, the Tuareg guitar wizard Bombino generally cannot. Once, we learned about new music by listening to the radio, reading Spin or watching MTV. Today MTV is largely a reality-TV channel, and most people prefer their iPods or Spotify playlists or Pandora stations to fusty radio programming.

In this way, poptimism embraces the familiar as a means of keeping music criticism relevant. Click culture creates a closed system in which popular acts get more coverage, thus becoming more popular, thus getting more coverage. But criticism is supposed to challenge readers on occasion, not only provide seals of approval.

In this light, poptimism can be seen as an attempt to resuscitate the unified cultural experience of the past, when we were all, at least in theory, listening together to “Sgt. Pepper’s” or “Thriller.” The dissolution of a shared musical mainstream means that my Speedy Ortiz or Ka may be gobbledygook to someone whose musical hero is Sky Ferreira. But the splintering of tastes should be celebrated, not treated as further cause for doubling down on our focus on a few familiar stars or sounds. Let a thousand Haims bloom!

In the guise of open-mindedness and inclusivity, poptimism gives critics — and by extension, fans — carte blanche to be less adventurous. If we are all talking about Miley Cyrus, then we do not need to wrestle with knottier music that might require some effort to appreciate. And so jazz and world music and regional American genres are shunted off to specialized reviewers, or entirely ignored. If this sounds like a fundamental challengeof the contemporary world — preserving complexity and nuance in a world devoted to bite-size nuggets of easy-to-swallow, predigested information — it should.

Poptimism diminishes the glory of music by declaring, repeatedly and insistently, that this is all it can do. But there is always more to the story. Critics of all stripes have the privilege of devoting their professional lives to hacking a path through the thicket of cultural abundance. There is, now more than ever, too much to listen to, too much to watch, too much to read. All we can do is point out some highlights of our journey. Criticism matters because its virtues are profoundly human ones: honesty, curiosity, diligence, pluralism. We should never sacrifice any of those in the name of an artificial consensus.

And get that Speedy Ortiz album. It’s killer.

end swipe

where i wanna take this though is where is Black "High Art" now?

does it exist?
did it ever exit? (yes, Jazz)
if it does exist now, what is it like?
is it a problem if there is no Black "High Art"?

_______________________________________
When discourse of Blackness is not connected to efforts to promote collective black self determinism
it becomes simply another recourse appropriated by the colonizer

http://hardboiledbabesanddarkchocolate.tumblr.co

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
RE: The Pernicious Rise of Poptimism (swipe)
Jul 04th 2014
1
Black Kray (link)
Jul 04th 2014
4
didn't read the sig - sorry
Jul 04th 2014
5
vitality is directly proportional to profits
Jul 04th 2014
9
      RE: vitality is directly proportional to profits
Jul 04th 2014
11
http://ohbliv.bandcamp.com/album/new-black-renaissance-side-b
Jul 04th 2014
2
*placeholder*
Jul 04th 2014
3
*cops a squat*
Jul 04th 2014
6
Hey, Mister!
Jul 07th 2014
22
It took way too long for the author to say....
Jul 04th 2014
7
yeah
Jul 04th 2014
8
      shill music journalism 2.0
Jul 04th 2014
13
I've been trying to write something (feedback desired)
Jul 04th 2014
10
social media has an impact as well
Jul 04th 2014
12
Categorically untrue
Jul 04th 2014
14
      I know that, dude
Jul 04th 2014
15
Insecure white hipsters are culture-less and confused.
Jul 04th 2014
16
RE: Insecure white hipsters are culture-less and confused.
Jul 05th 2014
17
Stick to film criticism
Jul 06th 2014
20
thanks for posting.
Jul 05th 2014
18
Actually you have to qualify
Jul 06th 2014
19
High Art
Jul 07th 2014
23
      RE: High Art
Jul 08th 2014
24
           why do
Jul 08th 2014
25
                It's the Aristocracy and the notion of "Art for Art Sake"
Jul 09th 2014
26
i agree 100 percent.
Jul 06th 2014
21
Hmmm....
Jul 09th 2014
27
i agree with this article and OE's analysis
Jul 09th 2014
28

c71
Member since Jan 15th 2008
13962 posts
Fri Jul-04-14 06:19 AM

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1. "RE: The Pernicious Rise of Poptimism (swipe)"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


>where i wanna take this though is where is Black "High Art"
>now?
>



probably kids messing around with computer programs in a very advanced way (not "luv in this club" way).


>does it exist?


probably


>if it does exist now, what is it like?



kids with computers trying to be the next Neptunes, Timbo and/or Sa-Ra


>is it a problem if there is no Black "High Art"?
>



The problem area is if the kids don't use the internet to be "excited" about what they're doing. If they just want to do it for their own "pleasure/enjoyment" then that's like any genius from the past "going off" on his or her instrument without starting a band and getting known to the public.

People will probably say: "artists don't need to be known - they just need to please themselves" but.....obviously there is something about wanting culture to "thrive/seem vital-alive" and that is why it IS a problem if these "crazy computer program kids" don't use the internet/youtube etc. to make black culture once again seem "vita/alive".

Something about wanting culture to seem vital/alive.

  

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Reuben
Member since Mar 13th 2006
1857 posts
Fri Jul-04-14 08:18 AM

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4. "Black Kray (link)"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3B_L5evGbo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LYmQfES388

_______________________________________
When discourse of Blackness is not connected to efforts to promote collective black self determinism
it becomes simply another recourse appropriated by the colonizer

http://hardboiledbabesanddarkchocolate.tumblr.co

  

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c71
Member since Jan 15th 2008
13962 posts
Fri Jul-04-14 08:24 AM

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5. "didn't read the sig - sorry"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

pretty clear from the sig

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Fri Jul-04-14 10:53 AM

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9. "vitality is directly proportional to profits"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

profits in music are directly proportional to ones willingness to conform
conformity can work against artistic expression.

one of the biggest things is the absence of craft. by craft in music i mean the skills that can be applied to whatever 'sound' it needs to be applied because a certain skill level has been achieved.

the absence of craft (nobody's fault actually) makes conforming to what is happening (ie being impressed upon by those youtube hits) a detrimental process to innovating. I know you didn't say innovation, but my sense is your vitality is for something new, not what already exists.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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c71
Member since Jan 15th 2008
13962 posts
Fri Jul-04-14 11:15 AM

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11. "RE: vitality is directly proportional to profits"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

>profits in music are directly proportional to ones
>willingness to conform
>conformity can work against artistic expression.
>


growing up in the hip-hop era, we were not checking the Billboard charts to see how much "The Message", "Planet Rock" and "Sucker MC's" were making us kids feel that hip-hop had vitality.

We knew hip-hop was vital because the people doing it put a lot into it and it made a lot of kids want to be into it.


>one of the biggest things is the absence of craft. by craft in
>music i mean the skills that can be applied to whatever
>'sound' it needs to be applied because a certain skill level
>has been achieved.
>


Look at punk when you want to talk about craft. Very few punk bands felt they needed to become "advanced" at their craft to be a part of a scene (late 70's in NYC or the UK) that had vitality. They knew they had to get above the level of chaotic noise but beyond that, punkers knew they could communicate vitality if they really got into their style in an energetic/aggressive way.

So....

Kids with computers today also can get into a mentality attitude that they can "freak" the hardware and software into something that causes a new scene to emerge/develop.




>the absence of craft (nobody's fault actually) makes
>conforming to what is happening (ie being impressed upon by
>those youtube hits) a detrimental process to innovating. I
>know you didn't say innovation, but my sense is your vitality
>is for something new, not what already exists.
>


I doubt anybody in the jazz scene of the 70's thought kids in the 2000's and 2010's would be over and over and over and over examining how Dilla got his drum sampling to match the MPC whatever....

so....

We can't now assume the craft/technical issues of the future (probably involving computer stuff) will be explored when it truly become very vital for kids to make "innovative" music on computers.

A person can think the era of "craft" is over but it isn't. I'm amused that on a punk/hardcore youtube clip, youngsters, (probably younger than me) in the comments section were HEAVILY critiquing a drummer for not being able to play punk/hardcore beats the "right way". Was punk/hardcore ever supposed to be about doing things the "right way"?

  

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CalvinButts
Member since Jun 20th 2014
854 posts
Fri Jul-04-14 06:26 AM

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2. "http://ohbliv.bandcamp.com/album/new-black-renaissance-side-b"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://ohbliv.bandcamp.com/album/new-black-renaissance-side-b

http://ohbliv.bandcamp.com/album/new-black-renaissance-side-a

_________
steamrollin'

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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84244 posts
Fri Jul-04-14 08:06 AM

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3. "*placeholder*"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Fri Jul-04-14 09:47 AM

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6. "*cops a squat*"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          


█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Reuben
Member since Mar 13th 2006
1857 posts
Mon Jul-07-14 09:57 AM

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22. "Hey, Mister!"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

_______________________________________
When discourse of Blackness is not connected to efforts to promote collective black self determinism
it becomes simply another recourse appropriated by the colonizer

http://hardboiledbabesanddarkchocolate.tumblr.co

  

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CaptNish
Member since Mar 09th 2004
14495 posts
Fri Jul-04-14 10:36 AM

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7. "It took way too long for the author to say...."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

"Obsessive coverage of stars like Drake and Justin Bieber drives Web traffic"

It's a good article though. I'ma let it digest a little before I come back to truly react to it.

_
Yo! That’s My Jawn: The Podcast - Available Now!
http://linktr.ee/yothatsmyjawn

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Fri Jul-04-14 10:49 AM

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8. "yeah"
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

ad revenue drives the music industry from both sides. the pop shit gets clicks the clicks sell the ads, the ads feature the pop shit. the fact is that the critic pool is so wide it's no longer about hiring the talent but hiring the clicks. if you want to get those clicks then you write what gets those clicks. gone is the illusion that one day you'll be able to write what you really want to write about. no you write what gets clicks and because you do you get paid and because you get paid you like what you write because you like getting paid.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Reuben
Member since Mar 13th 2006
1857 posts
Fri Jul-04-14 01:25 PM

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13. "shill music journalism 2.0"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

on another forum i use
a poster was lamenting the end of magazines
cos in them writers had the time and word count to be more free
without editors round their necks making sure its got enough clickbait



_______________________________________
When discourse of Blackness is not connected to efforts to promote collective black self determinism
it becomes simply another recourse appropriated by the colonizer

http://hardboiledbabesanddarkchocolate.tumblr.co

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Fri Jul-04-14 11:01 AM

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10. "I've been trying to write something (feedback desired)"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

which goes directly toward my own journey through this.

>where i wanna take this though is where is Black "High Art"
>now?

I may finish it in the next week or two and if so I'll put it here, but in the meantime

>if it does exist now, what is it like?

http://osc.avanturb.com/

Would love general feedback at what you find there. Be sure to check on Monday or Tuesday as a new piece will be added. The writing will expand on the intent but I wonder what folk can garner just from the listening.


█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Madvillain 626
Member since Apr 25th 2006
10018 posts
Fri Jul-04-14 01:06 PM

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12. "social media has an impact as well"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Jul-04-14 01:13 PM by Madvillain 626

  

          

People want to be down with what other people are down with. Nobody wants to label themselves a prententious outsider, and the need to be included and "with it" increases with age for these critics. They don't want to come off as old and bitter.

Plus none of these critics are on Twitter talking about "fuck Beiber" or "this new beyonce is ass". They don't want it with the Beiber gang or the Beyhive.

And these hipsters still only fuck with pop music with a "cool" factor. They not riding for Aloe Blacc or Kesha. They like Drizzy, Ri Ri, Bey, Lady Gaga, Charli XCX, Ariana Grande, Sky Ferarri or whatever her name is, anything produced by Dev Hynes, anything UK/Euro techno (Disclosure, that Clarity joint), and ANYTHING from Japan/Korea. (I love me some Perfume and Kyary Pamyu Pamyu too)

edit: same shit happened to rap. Being labelled a "backpacker" in 2014 is the kiss of death. Nobody gon shit on Migos while giving props to The Koreatown Oddity. Cuz then you're a dusty backpacker that doesn't get pussy or invited to parties.

-------------------------------
If life is stupendous one cannot also demand that it should be easy. - Robert Musil

  

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mrshow
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Fri Jul-04-14 02:28 PM

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14. "Categorically untrue"
In response to Reply # 12


          


>edit: same shit happened to rap. Being labelled a "backpacker"
>in 2014 is the kiss of death. Nobody gon shit on Migos while
>giving props to The Koreatown Oddity. Cuz then you're a dusty
>backpacker that doesn't get pussy or invited to parties.


A fair amount of Koreatown Oddity's fans like Migos too. You just can't accept the fact that most fans aren't as concerned with the "the real hip hop police" as you are.
Also, if you want to argue Run the Jewels, Vince Staples, Black Hippy and Action Bronson aren't backpack rap, I can suggest a good neurologist for you to see.

  

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Madvillain 626
Member since Apr 25th 2006
10018 posts
Fri Jul-04-14 02:41 PM

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15. "I know that, dude"
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

Hell, I'm one of those fans. There has been a melding of styles in pop and rap music so that there isn't nearly as much as a division as there was 10 years ago.

Artists like Action Bronson, Black Hippy, Vince Staples and even Lil B reach levels of popularity they couldn't have hit in 2004.

We're basically saying the same thing. Everyone fucks with the same stuff now. Back in the day you didn't have Def Jux heads bigging up G-Unit.

-------------------------------
If life is stupendous one cannot also demand that it should be easy. - Robert Musil

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
52934 posts
Fri Jul-04-14 03:24 PM

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16. "Insecure white hipsters are culture-less and confused. "
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Jul-04-14 03:25 PM by Orbit_Established

  

          

This is what happens when a demographic (the one that creates white
hipsters) completely bereft of actual talent (they don't actually produce
anything of merit artistically) runs the management, promotions, and
critical circles.

Because they don't create anything, they don't have a connection to
any of it and tend to hop from trend to trend promiscuously, with no
regard for sense, logic, or responsibility.

First they were intrigued with the black experience, and people who told
it authentically -- that's why this demographic used to like.

Not anymore.

Now they've moved on to ultra-perceptive and artsy interpretations on
sugary dumb (sometimes destructive) black people : its why Pitchfork interviews
Chief Keef at shooting range and applauds his album. No regard for black people,
or black violence

The next trend: white people who like and defend offensive white
artists.

We saw the beginnings of that with Kreashawn, Iggy Azalea, etc.

Nothing will change as long as a cultureless demographic dominates
the critical space.

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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double 0
Member since Nov 17th 2004
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Sat Jul-05-14 01:03 AM

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17. "RE: Insecure white hipsters are culture-less and confused. "
In response to Reply # 16


          

nah... one thing they dont like is white folk

Double 0
DJ/Producer/Artist
Producer in Kidz In The Hall
-------------------------------------------
twitter: @godouble0
IG: @godouble0
www.thinklikearapper.com

  

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mrshow
Charter member
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Sun Jul-06-14 03:20 PM

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20. "Stick to film criticism"
In response to Reply # 16


          

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2sMn0yeM8k&list=UU0_f-A-2cugPqSRot8ws2Lw

  

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vanilla_coke
Member since Jul 05th 2014
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Sat Jul-05-14 05:10 PM

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18. "thanks for posting."
In response to Reply # 0


          

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Sun Jul-06-14 03:02 PM

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19. "Actually you have to qualify"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

this

>where i wanna take this though is where is Black "High Art"
>now?
>
>does it exist?
>did it ever exit? (yes, Jazz)

First what is High Art? Contextualized with the audiences for said High Art.
Then present what is Black High Art within the same context around audiences.
Then if you want to posit that Jazz qualifies as such I think you'd come to the conclusion that it's only High Art because of the audiences that supported it, *AND* in order to do that you have to zero in on a specific period in which this is valid.

In other words I question whether Jazz actually existed as high art or if high art audiences for a time period supported jazz.

Taking that to the question of today I'd ask where are the high art audiences. And to the broader question perhaps it is their absence of interest facilitated by the post racial world that does not see them supporting any black music movements at the moment.

HMMMMM....


█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Reuben
Member since Mar 13th 2006
1857 posts
Mon Jul-07-14 10:17 AM

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23. "High Art"
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

would be art made with Aristocratic values patronised by the aristocracy/upper classes and perhaps, but not always and exclusively but, mainly derived from aristocratic/upper class social milieu


i believe there's definitely a high art period of jazz

i remember a post/reply you made about Miles Davis turning his back on the audience and him claiming to be, "an artist and not an entertainer"


that's in stark contrast to the ethos/values of pop culture/low culture

the position of the artist/performer/entertainer before the audience

primacy of the artists own artistic vision over audience expectations and demands

and even the function of the art but there's the obvious and somewhat false ideas that

music for dancing and socialising = low art
music for thinking = high art

_______________________________________
When discourse of Blackness is not connected to efforts to promote collective black self determinism
it becomes simply another recourse appropriated by the colonizer

http://hardboiledbabesanddarkchocolate.tumblr.co

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Tue Jul-08-14 06:46 AM

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24. "RE: High Art"
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

>would be art made with Aristocratic values patronised by the
>aristocracy/upper classes and perhaps, but not always and
>exclusively but, mainly derived from aristocratic/upper class
>social milieu

"Aristocratic values"

>i believe there's definitely a high art period of jazz

"period" still just maybe on that.

>i remember a post/reply you made about Miles Davis turning his
>back on the audience and him claiming to be, "an artist and
>not an entertainer"

But it's the upper class audiences that were so offended by the act. It's also interesting take on perspective. Miles Davis turned his back on the audience vs Miles Davis performed facing the band.

As for artist v entertainer are you saying only the aristocracy can appreciate art for art's sake?

>that's in stark contrast to the ethos/values of pop
>culture/low culture
>
>the position of the artist/performer/entertainer before the
>audience

I can understand this but have difficulty by example applying it to literature. It only seems to work in the overtly commercialized arts where iconography occurs.

>primacy of the artists own artistic vision over audience
>expectations and demands
>
>and even the function of the art but there's the obvious and
>somewhat false ideas that
>
>music for dancing and socialising = low art
>music for thinking = high art

At least you recognize that they are false ideas though.

What's the difference between high art and highfalutin art?

AFKAP oh AFKAP where for art though oh AFKAP


█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Reuben
Member since Mar 13th 2006
1857 posts
Tue Jul-08-14 08:07 AM

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25. "why do "
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

why do you have difficulty applying it to literature

look at the audience for 50 shades vs the audience for a Dave Eggers


and the relative esteem or lack of that, those works and audience are held in

i wouldnt say ONLY aristocratic audiences can appreciate art for arts sake but what are the examples of working/lower class appreciation of 'art for art sake'

_______________________________________
When discourse of Blackness is not connected to efforts to promote collective black self determinism
it becomes simply another recourse appropriated by the colonizer

http://hardboiledbabesanddarkchocolate.tumblr.co

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Wed Jul-09-14 08:39 AM

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26. "It's the Aristocracy and the notion of "Art for Art Sake" "
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

That I take issue with. I barely think an Aristocracy for the arts even exists anymore.

And art for art sake is such a misnomer. It just underestimates the power creation has over teh creator. It's not always about an audience but that doesn't mean that it's pointless.

BUt the whole notion of High Art to me is a different type of appeal. The appeal to the sensibilities of an Aristocracy which I'm not sure is actually what happens. Rather I feel that at least at the onset the artists are making the work that is important to them (which IDGAF is far more important than making work that's important to an audience if said work is just pander) and then the Aristocracy latches on to it and raises it, perhaps higher than it need go. Of course there follows a lot of copy cats, but that shouldn't become the definitive statement about the work. The work can be just as if not more honest than what's being called low art.


█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
15139 posts
Sun Jul-06-14 04:34 PM

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21. "i agree 100 percent. "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Wed Jul-09-14 09:40 AM

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27. "Hmmm...."
In response to Reply # 0


          



I agree with a lot of the points....

The one point that really should be underlined is that pop culture itself has become dramatically infantilized...

No doubt, music has always been fueled by youth culture. But the difference is as a critic/music fan you were not required to praise teeny boppers acts...No one was catching shade because u didn't like the Osmonds, Shaun Cassidy or the Bay City Rollers. No one was calling you a music elitist because you didn't think early Madonna was the second coming of Bowie...These acts were put into their proper place and took years to be taken seriously as they grew and mature.

It took years for Michael Jackson to be taken seriously. Same for Justin Timberlake...NSYNC had to keep plugging along to even escape the dreaded boy band tag...

Now? People are called a hater if you don't believe Taylor Swift is the gold standard...Or that Miley Cyrus is breaking new ground...One Direction gets the kind of passes that the Backstreet Boys could never dream of...

Fame has trumped critical dissection...or criticism of any kind... Tabloid blogs have become the new journalism of the day...

Now we are required to report on the relationship status of Justin Bieber and Selena Gomez' relationship status....

We are now rolling in the same lanes as the teeny bopper contingent...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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cformusic
Member since Jul 04th 2014
60 posts
Wed Jul-09-14 11:07 AM

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28. "i agree with this article and OE's analysis"
In response to Reply # 0


          

the anecdote i think will be for the next generation of pop artists to not only be skillful and deep into their craft, but they'll also have to be adept at playing the internet popularity game simultaneously..true multidiscipline multi-media superstars instead of just merely being good musicians

*Watch my gay ol' music video: "HAM" http://youtu.be/0GKoEGDPirU
*Listen to my gay ol' song: "Yes Homo" http://youtu.be/_1H30pzN7cE
*Stream/download my gay ol' mixtape: http://cformusic.com/

  

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