"any hip-hop producer make better music after studying music theory?"
i was browsing some hip-hop discussions on gearslutz and i came across the whole "beatmakers need to study music theory...watch em look like idiots sitting in front of a piano and identify what key this song is in...blah blah blah..."
SO, are there any cases of a hip-hop producer/beatmaker actually making BETTER shit after receiving an education in music theory??
cuz i can think of a couple examples to the contrary...
Although, he was really studying music and making beats simultaneously so it's not like he went from only being a beatmaker to walking in completely ignorant to music theory but he did go to USC's Monk school of music for a couple of years and his production has grown and gotten better since then in my opinion.
6. "Depends what type of production you prefer" In response to Reply # 3
> >I'm afraid it's gonna be some Ryan Leslie type of...
Most of Terrace's production has been on real real West Coast sounding Hip Hop tracks so if that's not your cup of tea you might not dig it. Snoop, Kurupt, Murs, Glasses Malone, Jay Rock, Kendrick, etc. He's been Kendrick's musical director on his tour for a while now and he's also toured with Herbie Hancock, Robert Glasper and other really serious Jazz dudes as a saxophone and keyboard player. > >s.blak >Hip Me
13. "Did Adriane study theory?" In response to Reply # 8
I was under the impression that he started playing later in life but I wasn't sure if he actually studied music at SC since I remember reading he was in their law program.
5. "RE: any hip-hop producer make better music after studying music theory?" In response to Reply # 0
Well who has time...
In all seriousness.. once you get that look. You gotta be ready to GO!! So it's like yea.. if you are early on in your career and you can gestate in darkness I think it could be dope.
But once it's go time you gotta react and make the best with what you have available.
Maybe someone like a Dr Dre can reappear on some awesome musical experience shit now that he's studied classical piano for a few years... but I doubt there will ever be a beat he "makes" now that people will say is better than anything he's made in the past.
Double 0 DJ/Producer/Artist Producer in Kidz In The Hall ------------------------------------------- twitter: @godouble0 IG: @godouble0 www.thinklikearapper.com
>Well who has time... > >In all seriousness.. once you get that look. You gotta be >ready to GO!! So it's like yea.. if you are early on in your >career and you can gestate in darkness I think it could be >dope. > >But once it's go time you gotta react and make the best with >what you have available. > >Maybe someone like a Dr Dre can reappear on some awesome >musical experience shit now that he's studied classical piano >for a few years... but I doubt there will ever be a beat he >"makes" now that people will say is better than anything he's >made in the past.
Not just in Hip Hop but in most popular music...who is going to really take time away from their successful recording career to study and start from scratch? > >
Yea.. this shit goes from Passion to Business in an instant... you can instantly hire a musician. Not as easy on the theory side.
But if you do have down time and leading up to these moments you should always be striving to learn more and be better at what you do
Double 0 DJ/Producer/Artist Producer in Kidz In The Hall ------------------------------------------- twitter: @godouble0 IG: @godouble0 www.thinklikearapper.com
I've had several musicians tell me that they were afraid of taking theory because the music they played was based on feel and they worried that if they studied then they would become to structured in their outlook and wouldn't be as free because they would be to locked in to the way you are "supposed" to do things. Not sure how valid that is but I've heard it from quite a few musicians.
I know for me I dont know shit but basics.. So I choose melodies from ear and what "sounds good". At the same time I waste time trying to find certain melodies that I would know easier if I knew theory better.
I've worked with musicians who produce that are stuck because the natural thing for them to do is either some complicated jazz chords or some church playing that doesn't fit into the paradigm of producing for right now.
So you kinda just have to work with what you know.. but gain enough knowledge to get what you need to raise the level of production..
Part (possibly the most important part) of being a producer is being a good project manager
Double 0 DJ/Producer/Artist Producer in Kidz In The Hall ------------------------------------------- twitter: @godouble0 IG: @godouble0 www.thinklikearapper.com
21. "thanks for the insight" In response to Reply # 17
yeah i can totally see dudes hitting the ground running with their career, and where taking the time out to study, learn, and implement would totally halt the momentum.
>I definitely think its true on both sides... > >I know for me I dont know shit but basics.. So I choose >melodies from ear and what "sounds good". At the same time I >waste time trying to find certain melodies that I would know >easier if I knew theory better.
So do you think you would be better if you had a little more knowledge of music theory or you would just be able to work at a faster pace? > >I've worked with musicians who produce that are stuck because >the natural thing for them to do is either some complicated >jazz chords or some church playing that doesn't fit into the >paradigm of producing for right now.
That's why I mentioned Terrace because I think he is one of the few people I know that has a good mixture of being trained and just doing what feels good. It will be interesting to see if in the future we get more Hip Hop producers in that style that have musical training but still have the right ear for the untrained beat production ear that people are accustomed to. > >So you kinda just have to work with what you know.. but gain >enough knowledge to get what you need to raise the level of >production.. > >Part (possibly the most important part) of being a producer is >being a good project manager
Personally for me... I don't NEED more training.. but I would like it.. just cuz..
It only really becomes problematic trying to replay over a sample in an awesome way...
But shit.. Melodyne DNA splits the samples into chords now.. so I aint turnt back since.. lol
Double 0 DJ/Producer/Artist Producer in Kidz In The Hall ------------------------------------------- twitter: @godouble0 IG: @godouble0 www.thinklikearapper.com
12. "Well, in rock, the band Kiss supposedly allowed a producer to" In response to Reply # 7
give them a crash course in theory before they did the "Destroyer" LP. That was supposed to be a reason that LP was an improvement for their music.
In soul, Quincy Jones supposedly taught Donny Hathaway about orchestration when Q chose Donny to do the "Come back Charleston Blue" soundtrack.
Obviously both examples were a crash course thing but....uh...yeah, hip-hop needs some crash course-ing stuff too.
And it probably does happen. Ex. RZA was saying for a while that Quincy Jones told him the "secret" about making music. But in light of what Rae is now saying, I guesss..........
18. "RE: Well, in rock, the band Kiss supposedly allowed a producer to" In response to Reply # 12
You are talking about MUSICIANS getting crash courses in music theory...
Hip Hop Producers.. (certainly not all) a good majority of them don't know the basics or how to play a single instrument. There can't be a crash course if the level of musicianship isnt there.
Double 0 DJ/Producer/Artist Producer in Kidz In The Hall ------------------------------------------- twitter: @godouble0 IG: @godouble0 www.thinklikearapper.com
31. "folks do stuff on keyboards, simplistically, that can be expanded" In response to Reply # 18
gradually from wherever the producer may be at.
This is really not hard to do.
This idea of "level of musicianship" might have held some weight when sampling was keeping listeners all stuck on jazz/funk samples,
but........
we've had years of hip-hop listeners buying simplistic stuff ("laffy taffy" and all that southern stuff)
so........
getting a few crash courses on how to play a chord or two or a scale or two on a keyboard isn't as inadequate now as it was when jazzy/funk samples were the standard in hip-hop.
Crash courses don't have to teach everything in two weeks or only start at a certain "level of musicianship".
32. "RE: folks do stuff on keyboards, simplistically, that can be expanded" In response to Reply # 31
True..
But why?
Like Dr Luke was a good enough guitar player to play in the SNL Band for years...
not one time has anyone heard a Katy Perry record and been like MAN.. them guitar licks were FIRE
Double 0 DJ/Producer/Artist Producer in Kidz In The Hall ------------------------------------------- twitter: @godouble0 IG: @godouble0 www.thinklikearapper.com
34. "Boy oh boy did he fall off a fucking cliff" In response to Reply # 9
in terms of the quality of his music after he started this music theory ventures. Outside of the stuff he did on the Attractive Sin album, there aren't any post-music theory material of his I can support. The shitty beats he makes nowadays are one thing, but the way he dumbed down his flow is what makes him intolerable for the most part.
35. "ha, this was the first thing I thought about too " In response to Reply # 9
Really, the whole Hiero production style took a hit when they stopped sampling the kinds of records that they used on their first string of albums. Though I do think that 'Third Eye Vision' had some heat, too.
11. "Tangential: Music theory is pretty useless for 'production'" In response to Reply # 0
What's needed is sound theory. Sound theory is basically understanding frequency and harmonics. This will help a lot with mixing and sound design elements, enve with arranging. Music theory is counterintuitive to the way the majority of production setups are designed. Trying to translate everything to fixed pitch relationships is just working backwards at this point.
Now music theory still holds a lot of weight in the song writing arena because all of the tried and true methods for moving through musical phases are still applicable. But they need not be held onto with any rigidity either. That said, a songwriter who has just done it for the most part would definitely benefit from music theory as it will open up the possibilities for them.
14. "music theory might add another layer of work" In response to Reply # 11 Fri Apr-18-14 02:34 PM by forgivenphoenix
my understanding of theory is pretty limited. I can read a scale and understand tempo, but my understanding of keys and alternative tuning of string instruments are something that I don't understand.
that being said, being able to 'see' the construct of music from a visual or theoretical sense over time would let a producer view their music from a different perspective.
while producers are great at crafting beats with alot of immediacy and give visceral reactions, there is a glut of producers drawing from similar sonic palattes. music theory would at least give musicians a greater set of tools to work with.
you don't seem to be implying what I'm about to write, because your work on your blog and your posts reflect a sense of respect for the intellect music writing and production takes. I took a sense of anti-intellectualism from your response. as much as pop / r&B / blues {re: black} music draws from an intuitive and reactive sense, it can't be argued that artists like Miles and Mingus, or Quincy Jones or the other musicians who were only original but great craftsman didn't benefit from music theory alot.
19. "RE: music theory might add another layer of work" In response to Reply # 14
Are you saying that more people knowing theory would diversify the sonics or structure of genre's?
Because that wouldn't happen at all.
Double 0 DJ/Producer/Artist Producer in Kidz In The Hall ------------------------------------------- twitter: @godouble0 IG: @godouble0 www.thinklikearapper.com
24. "The DAW arrange view/piano roll is the new score" In response to Reply # 14
in direct response to your comment on visualizing music. MIDIfied perception of music is the standard of production. People share midi files far more than they do any type of musical notation when we're talking about production. Remember music isn't being created to be played anymore. It's being created more or less to be machine performed and so the need to translate is the composer translating it to a form which the computer understands. Even if you take a score to a producer they are just going to translate that score to midi messages for the machine to perform all those string parts.
When you aren't even starting from a written score though as a producer there's absolutely no need to go to the notes. In fact doing so is a step backwards unless you're working with players who only work via reading music (pretty much never happens). Otherwise everything is just getting the right sound out of the machines and the players.
27. "not hip-hop, but i remember reading that st vincent" In response to Reply # 24
wrote/composed "actor" on her laptop in GB/Logic.
i found that fascinating cuz i think of annie as a "real musician" and "real musicians" i figured did standard music notation and scoffed at midi. i mean, she went to berklee...don't they make everyone write shit by hand like how we had to learn cursive in elementary school?!?
anyhow, i think it's cool that midi is the new standard like that.
33. "RE: The DAW arrange view/piano roll is the new score" In response to Reply # 24
Although.. most ppl I know still transfer stems et al as audio files... you are correct...
I don't think it became a standard though until Fruity Loops integrated step sequencing so well into the DAW. Then once Ableton too hold.. boom..
Crazy to think that even cats like Skrillex who grew up with an instrument.. write all their production in midi... no keyboard controller nothing.. just piano roll
Double 0 DJ/Producer/Artist Producer in Kidz In The Hall ------------------------------------------- twitter: @godouble0 IG: @godouble0 www.thinklikearapper.com
36. "At least for basslines it definitely helps. " In response to Reply # 11
Heard a lot of the wackest beats ever because of a lack of musical knowledge or a good ear. A lot of times you can sound out basslines on the keyboard and wing it as long as it goes good with the samples. Having some musical theory knowledge can help in that department and even add some extra ideas.
Best one being Dr Dre's sonic expansion on The Chronic. He went from a guy making cool shit that sounded like it was recorded in a basement to being praised in audiophile magazines.
For alot of hip hop acts...it didn't necessarily mean that they actually learned anything....they just hired professional engineers and mixers. But the early 90's....there was a whole slew of acts who's releases became much more sonically sophisticated over-night.
28. "thinking about some hip-hop production moments that really excited me" In response to Reply # 0 Fri Apr-18-14 04:36 PM by cbk
hearing "it takes a nation" for the first time--and later reading about how it was made.
same with "paul's boutique."
dj shadow making "endtroducing" with all samples and no rappers. also reading interviews and stories of some of the shit he did on his mpc (e.g. manual timestretching the trumpet solo on "swan lake"). same thing with "backstage girl" being all samples and how he subtley changed the tempo throughout the song.
jay dee using "jonz" and "she's always in my hair" to make "2u4u".
rza's "verbal intercourse" loop.
primo's one-note chop technique perfected on "moment of truth."
and dj krush kinda doing the same thing but with weird samples and making an entire instrumental album ("kakusei").
and more shit i can't think of now.
none of the above needed/required any formal training in music theory.
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