all this stuff about an mpc swing, the superior sound of a 3000 vs a 2000/xl/2500/4000, the filters on the 950, the fx on the 303 and 404, the sp1200's distinct 12 bit sound (which i can spot sometimes, especially if the sample was pitched down--that distorted, grind-y sound), whatever special charateristics the eps/asr has, etc etc etc.

i mean, certain producers are tied to their gear during a specific time (e.g. pete rock and his sp1200 in the 90s, premier with his mpc60 and s950 setup, etc.), so those are easy to spot.

but for all the other thousands of songs out there, can you really tell if a producer made some shit on his/her laptop with FL, or if he/she chopped shit up in an mpc3000--with that "classic" swing and superior sound fully intact???

Happy 50th D’Angelo: https://chrisp.bandcamp.com/track/d-50

soul survivor sound like the main ingredient?

there is your answer

yes… there are major differences. can you listen to it and identify - maybe (i can identify sp1200)…rest of it not so much due to the fact that recording, mixing and mastering will all affect the sound

but i have owned a mpc 60, npc 2000xl, mpc 1000, asr-x, akai 900 and sp1200

they all sound different and inspire different methods

http://howardlloyd.bandcamp.com

>soul survivor sound like the main ingredient?
>
>there is your answer

Yeah that one is easy to hear. Nothing sounds like an SP1200 and the coloring it adds. Plus there's a lot of vids of Pete on his new(er) beloved MPC.

>
>yes… there are major differences. can you listen to it and
>identify - maybe (i can identify sp1200)…rest of it not so
>much due to the fact that recording, mixing and mastering will
>all affect the sound

Right right.

>
>but i have owned a mpc 60, npc 2000xl, mpc 1000, asr-x, akai
>900 and sp1200
>
>they all sound different and inspire different methods

So how about the swing...does each machine--even among diff MPCs--have a unique swing to them?

Overall I asked this question cuz occasionally I hear some shit like "oh those drums bang, they have that MPC feel". And I think "how can you tell?!??"

Happy 50th D’Angelo: https://chrisp.bandcamp.com/track/d-50

I never had a mpc 3000 but I felt no difference between any of the MPs I had

the asr-x sequencer sucked. it always sounded off to me but I think it had the best sounding sampler

the sp swing is different just because it is.

cats can't hear that shit though. to a person using the machine they will feel different things. but can't nobody listen to swing and say that's mpc. there are too many factors. sample truncation, whether quantize is off etc will all play a roll in "swing"

http://howardlloyd.bandcamp.com

Happy 50th D’Angelo: https://chrisp.bandcamp.com/track/d-50

but pete rock was using the sp on soul survivor. on petestrumentals too.

he stopped using it for soul survivor 2, which is why it sounds a lot "brighter"

definitely notice that sp1200 "distortion" in those LPs.

petestrumentals was his last hurrah with the sp, if i remember correctly.

Happy 50th D’Angelo: https://chrisp.bandcamp.com/track/d-50

tru master 4th/disciple and el-p's shit sound waaaay different. if you've used an asr-10/x vs. an mpc you can hear the difference from samples played from a keyboard and those played from a drum machine.

IG: amadu_me

"...Whateva, man..." (c) Redman

Can u tell which ones are ASR 10 beats vs MPC ones?

How about rza? I know he used both too.

Examples if possible. Thanks.

Happy 50th D’Angelo: https://chrisp.bandcamp.com/track/d-50

I always associated Alch w/keyboard based samples til I seen him do a joint on a 2500 I think. I think imcvspl worded my thoughts a li'l better.

stand corrected.

IG: amadu_me

"...Whateva, man..." (c) Redman

>I always associated Alch w/keyboard based samples til I seen
>him do a joint on a 2500 I think. I think imcvspl worded my
>thoughts a li'l better.
>
>stand corrected.

In Reply #2, you said:

"tru master 4th/disciple and el-p's shit sound waaaay different. if you've used an asr-10/x vs. an mpc you can hear the difference from samples played from a keyboard and those played from a drum machine."

Which, if I'm not wrong, means that, those with hours under their belt can hear the difference between samples played on keyboard keys and those played on pads. Now, mind you, although the MPC's do come with pads and the Ensoniq units come with keys, you can use a MIDI keyboard to play the samples on an MPC and the pads on an MPC can be used to play the samples on an Ensoniq.

But, when the OP asks you for examples of this skill, you not only acknowledge that this skill seems to be predicated on your having previous knowledge of what equipment a producer is already using, which, it then seems, you would use to make comparisons to another producer whose setup you're already aware of, you then defer to imcvspl's post which is not worded as strongly as yours.

Now, I'm not trying single you out or anything like that, because, at least you were a man with yours and admitted that you may have overstated, but, I want to use this as an example.

Imagine the cat that says something similar to this, is never asked to prove it, but his listeners walk away thinking his word is bond?

That's how urban myths begin.

And, that's why, in the scientific realm, there are control groups and double blind tests.

Because people WILL tell you they can tell the difference between this and that, have this super pill that cures all diseases or say that they have these refined skills superior to other "normal" human beings, but, when it comes time to show and tell, they either decline to participate or fail miserably when they do...

Come to grips with the fact that most OKP's are of the Nut Hugger lineage, so, if you' re not part of the little cliques that exist 'round here, your posts will probably tank like Souljaboy's album sales.

i'm most familiar with rza's catalogue, and i know he was an asr-10 user, so i took a listen.

i think it was most noticable on gza's "gold" starting at 3:14 (that synthy/horn/rumble sound running thru different keys) and "i gotcha back" (the keys and the horn sample played in different pitches--again i THINK, i don't know the og samples). but then again, you can do both of the above with the 16 levels pitch feature on the mpc.

then i looked around online and found this post from carlos bess (www.gearslutz.com/board/rap-hip-hop-engineering-production/357811-who-mixed-wu-tang-enter-36-a.html) who said that every beat on 36 chambers was made on an eps/asr EXCEPT for "method man" (made on an sp1200)--which i would have guessed sounded MOST like a keyboard beat! while the bassline on "7th chamber part 2" definitely sounds keyboard-y, i couldn't really tell on the other songs.

Happy 50th D’Angelo: https://chrisp.bandcamp.com/track/d-50

Ninth & I have spoken a few times about how most people don't know the difference between anything he has done on an MPC vs Fruity Loops

Double 0
DJ/Producer/Artist
Producer in Kidz In The Hall
-------------------------------------------
twitter: @godouble0
IG: @godouble0
www.thinklikearapper.com

Thinking bout his beats, I certainly can't tell.

Happy 50th D’Angelo: https://chrisp.bandcamp.com/track/d-50

And Fruity Loops has a color which sounds just under CD quality (despite obviously being at it). Not trying to cise but the reason for this in 9th's case is because a lot of times he doesn't do a lot of sound design on his samples so they just have the sound of the machine. In this way it's easy to identify a 9th MPC beat over a Pete Rock MPC beat.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

explain it a bit as far as when someone can hear the difference in swing between an MPC60 or 3000 (Linn designed) vs. every other MPC that came afterwards (not Linn designed).

The entire interview is great, but I just swiped the section where he's talking about the swing on his machines:

http://www.attackmagazine.com/features/roger-linn-swing-groove-magic-mpc-timing/

Attack Magazine: The main idea which prompted this discussion was a conversation we had in our office about the magic of the 80s MPCs. 25 years on from the release of the MPC60, it’s still held in incredibly high regard and there’s a mystique attached to the timing. ‘MPC swing’ is the watchword for tight, funky timing. Can we start by talking about the MPCs – particularly the MPC60 and MPC3000 – and why they’re so highly revered? Are they actually measurably better in some way than other sequencers or is it a bit of an urban myth which has snowballed since the 80s?
Roger Linn: There are a few factors that have contributed to natural, human-feeling grooves in my drum machines. In order of importance:
1. Swing.
Swing – applied to quantized 16th-note beats – is a big part of it. My implementation of swing has always been very simple: I merely delay the second 16th note within each 8th note. In other words, I delay all the even-numbered 16th notes within the beat (2, 4, 6, 8, etc.) In my products I describe the swing amount in terms of the ratio of time duration between the first and second 16th notes within each 8th note. For example, 50% is no swing, meaning that both 16th notes within each 8th note are given equal timing. And 66% means perfect triplet swing, meaning that the first 16th note of each pair gets 2/3 of the time, and the second 16th note gets 1/3, so the second 16th note falls on a perfect 8th note triplet. The fun comes in the in-between settings. For example, a 90 BPM swing groove will feel looser at 62% than at a perfect swing setting of 66%. And for straight 16th-note beats (no swing), a swing setting of 54% will loosen up the feel without it sounding like swing. Between 50% and around 70% are lots of wonderful little settings that, for a particular beat and tempo, can change a rigid beat into something that makes people move. And unlike the MPCs, my new Tempest drum machine makes it very easy to find the right swing setting because you can adjust the swing knob in real time while the beat plays. I first introduced swing – as well as recording quantization – in my 1979 drum machine, the LM-1 Drum Computer.

That shit just explained SO much yo...

Double 0
DJ/Producer/Artist
Producer in Kidz In The Hall
-------------------------------------------
twitter: @godouble0
IG: @godouble0
www.thinklikearapper.com

it's in the old MPC manuals and widely available online as well, no excuse for that shit

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CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!!
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Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

My first MPC (60 II) was in 2000... 2nd or 3rd hand at 8th street Music and no manual...
I was using Reason 2.5 by err 2002-2003.. Only learned about swing because the quantize on the computer felt so different.. So me and my other homey would just import the MPC midi grooves that were floating around online at the time and use em.

Never looked into the math though and eventually just stopped using 100% quantize shortly after that..

Plus my production idols at the time Timbaland, Neptunes n dem.. never even used MPC's

Double 0
DJ/Producer/Artist
Producer in Kidz In The Hall
-------------------------------------------
twitter: @godouble0
IG: @godouble0
www.thinklikearapper.com

dont mean that the code aint the same

lol

theres no difference in the MP sequencers (can't speak to the 4000). sound yes. sequencer is the same

they already brought the code from roger. wasn't no need to keep giving him royalties.

all you gotta do is make a beat on the 60… and then load that sequence into one of the laters. I use to do it all the time because i liked starting on the 60… get the sound of that sampler and then load it up in the 2000.

i never heard a difference in any sequence created on the 60 that was then loaded in the 2000g

& i'm extremely sensitive to the beats groove.

http://howardlloyd.bandcamp.com

changes to the feel of the swing values on the 2000 and later vs. the 60 and 3000. There are some beats that definitely sound like they were done on a 60 or 3000 vs. something else.

>changes to the feel of the swing values on the 2000 and later
>vs. the 60 and 3000. There are some beats that definitely
>sound like they were done on a 60 or 3000 vs. something else.
>

I don't think Akai would have made any major changes to the swing if it was already working great and unless this was stated by them in the product info or something like that, it's just all conjecture.

Come to grips with the fact that most OKP's are of the Nut Hugger lineage, so, if you' re not part of the little cliques that exist 'round here, your posts will probably tank like Souljaboy's album sales.

which is why only machines he worked on have his signature on it. The whole reason that Akai partnered with him in the first place was because of his patent on modular drum generators (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=2&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=roger.INNM.&s2=linn.INNM.) and because of the sequencer in the Linn Drum and Linn 9000. The MPC sequencer came from the Linn Drum and that's what Akai wanted. You can't simply partner with someone for their technology, end that relationship and keep using that technology.

Also remember that the 3000 came before the 2000, after the relationship with Linn had ended. It wasn't an evolutionary project, it was devolutionary after no longer having Linn's tech.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

>which is why only machines he worked on have his signature on
>it. The whole reason that Akai partnered with him in the
>first place was because of his patent on modular drum
>generators
>(http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=2&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=roger.INNM.&s2=linn.INNM.)
>and because of the sequencer in the Linn Drum and Linn 9000.
>The MPC sequencer came from the Linn Drum and that's what Akai
>wanted. You can't simply partner with someone for their
>technology, end that relationship and keep using that
>technology.

Legally, you can. It all comes down to the contract.

If they hired him to design a swing algorithm for their machines that was an evolution of that which he already had in his original Linn Drum, then, most thorough contracts will state that that evolved version was a work for hire and now under ownership of Akai.

Basically, same thing as a scientist working for Proctor and Gamble. Even if you came up with a revolutionary idea on your own, if they hire you to develop that idea and make it a marketable product or service, the work you do towards that and the end product now becomes their intellectual property. Many times, they may also either buy the patent from you or, if you haven't patented, pay you for full ownership of the patentable idea.

The removal of his name from the machines post 3000 could simply mean he was no longer partnering with them. It doesn't have to be stretched to mean that all of his tech left with him. If Akai agreed to something like that, their lawyers were slacking.

Now, he may already have had some form of this swing algorithm in place in some of his earlier hardware, which I think he mentioned in the article, but it may not have been as fully developed or executed the same as in the MPC's.

>Also remember that the 3000 came before the 2000, after the
>relationship with Linn had ended. It wasn't an evolutionary
>project, it was devolutionary after no longer having Linn's
>tech.

I wouldn't say the 2000 was completely devolutionary. The 2000 has the waveform display, the option for the effects board, and a few other improvements. I think the note capacity went up too.

Come to grips with the fact that most OKP's are of the Nut Hugger lineage, so, if you' re not part of the little cliques that exist 'round here, your posts will probably tank like Souljaboy's album sales.

>Legally, you can. It all comes down to the contract.

If it was a licensing situation though they couldn't. I was actually hoping to find a sequencing related patent when I did that quick search but didn't. Also didn't find Akai's name on one either which makes me think the process falls out of line with being patentable. BUT that almost lends more credance to what I'm saying.

To see my point though you have to take Linn's character into account which is difficult to do out of context. Trust me when I say Linn would not be a work-for-hire cat. The evidence is in the fact that his name was on Akai machines. Go through the list of Akai engineers and not a single one of them motherfuckers got their names on the machines.

I've done a lot of research in this matter. I was actually just this month working on a Linn Drum https://twitter.com/primusluta/status/446123832957362176 specifically studying it's sequencer. Trust me when I say he had mastered the process by then. There may have been alterations to how to do it (think a screen UI for it) but what actually made it work was working back then. He didn't just give that to Akai. If anything it would have been stipulated in his contract that anything that he brought to the table was his and if it didn't include that it wasn't his. Remember he had a company as an individual before Akai (sure it suffered financial issues because of his ambition but those are financial not technological).

The patent would have proven it but I can't find that and will likely never see the contract. But I've been telling folk for years he actually did have a specific groove to which everyone wanted to doubt until recently. He did protect his own creations and wouldn't have readily turned them over to anyone. License yes. but he contracts would have been in favor of his ownership.

If I had the time and the wherewithall I'd actually reverse engineer all of that shit to point out the differences but alas... I'm just a po nigga from the bronx.


█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

>>Legally, you can. It all comes down to the contract.
>
>If it was a licensing situation though they couldn't. I was
>actually hoping to find a sequencing related patent when I did
>that quick search but didn't. Also didn't find Akai's name on
>one either which makes me think the process falls out of line
>with being patentable. BUT that almost lends more credance to
>what I'm saying.

True, the licensing would either be for just those products he worked on or for a certain amount of years. Also, no need to clarify on having used "partner" instead of "licensor" or some other term. I pretty much knew what you meant and I'm not one to play semantics.

Also, I don't know if the lack of a patent particularly lends more credence either way (yours or mine), but, it sure doesn't help us resolve this issue in any way.

>To see my point though you have to take Linn's character into
>account which is difficult to do out of context. Trust me
>when I say Linn would not be a work-for-hire cat. The
>evidence is in the fact that his name was on Akai machines.
>Go through the list of Akai engineers and not a single one of
>them motherfuckers got their names on the machines.

True, once again, but also, if he's already an established name in the game, then, putting his name on the products could help sales or establish them as truly professional quality.

>I've done a lot of research in this matter. I was actually
>just this month working on a Linn Drum
>https://twitter.com/primusluta/status/446123832957362176
>specifically studying it's sequencer. Trust me when I say he
>had mastered the process by then. There may have been
>alterations to how to do it (think a screen UI for it) but
>what actually made it work was working back then.

That's what you call ahead of your time.

>He didn't just give that to Akai. If anything it would have been
>stipulated in his contract that anything that he brought to
>the table was his and if it didn't include that it wasn't his.
> Remember he had a company as an individual before Akai (sure
>it suffered financial issues because of his ambition but those
>are financial not technological).

Yeah, read about those hiccups somehwere online a few years ago.

>The patent would have proven it but I can't find that and will
>likely never see the contract. But I've been telling folk for
>years he actually did have a specific groove to which everyone
>wanted to doubt until recently. He did protect his own
>creations and wouldn't have readily turned them over to
>anyone. License yes. but he contracts would have been in
>favor of his ownership.

I agree. If he's any kind of an astute businessman, he would have done this.

>If I had the time and the wherewithall I'd actually reverse
>engineer all of that shit to point out the differences but
>alas... I'm just a po nigga from the bronx.

And I'm sure you got plenty other things to attend to.

But, very informative response, as always.

This is the kind of geeky, technical stuff that the OK Producer forums should have been dedicated to.

Come to grips with the fact that most OKP's are of the Nut Hugger lineage, so, if you' re not part of the little cliques that exist 'round here, your posts will probably tank like Souljaboy's album sales.

the amount of work put in. Lazy beats sound like lazy beats.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

>the amount of work put in. Lazy beats sound like lazy beats.

Happy 50th D’Angelo: https://chrisp.bandcamp.com/track/d-50

The acid 303 sound and 909 drums are pretty recognizable for people who listen to house and techno

It's the easiest one to tell.

I can also weirdly discern the sound of an Electribe since I used it for a while. Kinda has a fuzzy sound to it because of those tubes.

------------------------------

50+ FREE Mixes on www.DJR-Tistic.com!

Twitter and Instagram - @DJ_RTistic

____________
Twitter & IG: @rulerofmyself
SC: rulerofmyself17

Yes! She's on the drugs. (c) BoHagon

because of the bit rate and the filters. Impossible to emulate.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

no mistaking that machine, other MPCs can go the big grunge thing but it's not close

__________________________________________
CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!!
------------------------------------
Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

....always funny when you see people try to do so with bit crusher software and it just doesn't work

I'm of the opinion that everyone in this post is full o' shit. Yall cant tell shit, lol.

Jordan!

>I'm of the opinion that everyone in this post is full o'
>shit. Yall cant tell shit, lol.

But, I'm with you. Now, I do think that MAYBE someone could hear particular qualities of a certain sampler (not sequencer), i.e., maybe the sound of the filter, etc.., but, as far as sequencing, I think that's a shot in the dark.

I HONESTLY think that the whole argument of one machine's sequencer being proportionately and ESPECIALLY audibly superior to another was one of those things that producers came up with to separate themselves from the amateurs who were using cheaper sequencers.

That way, it might discourage a cat from even thinking about threatening his position because he can't get that "professional" sound unless he has $3k to drop on the same "special" sequencer "so and so" super producer has.

And, unfortunately, that thinking has been propagated for years upon years and it has been damaging to some folks' output.

I've had some friends who feverishly lusted for certain pieces of hardware because they want that Pete Rock or Primo or Large Pro or Alchemist sound, but, getting that equipment isn't going to automatically put you in that echelon.

Those guys spent COUNTLESS hours on their chosen pieces and, if anything, the mastery gained from that is what led to the quality that they put out. Yeah, they may have used the MPC swing functions and knew that one particular setting felt better than others, but, they SURE AS HELL never knew the math behind it like Roger explained in that article.

Unfortunately, some cats think that, once they get that piece, they can almost literally just dump turds into the unit and it'll turn into gold.

And, the sad thing about it is, many of my friends that I mentioned STILL think like this and haven't completed a beat for some time BUT they've bought and sold like 3 different MPC's in that time, never even learning to use any of them.

Why? Because they're not willing to put in those Pete Rock, Primo, Large Pro or Alchemist hours.

They think there's any Easy button somewhere...

Then, when you tell them stuff like, read the manual, they'll tell you that, "Yo, I heard RZA just lit a blunt one night and learned the SP1200 by morning, no manual. So, I'm a just do that". And, that's not to say these things aren't possible or didn't happen, that way, but, to think it's something that ANYONE can do is a gross misrepresentation. Also, it neglects that fact that, once you've learned or been taught to use one sequencer, and you're now familiar with the terminology and basic layout most sequencers have, it's MUCH easier to learn another one.

They latch onto these urban myths and that's more of a driving force than their own desire to have a high level of proficiency in the beatmaking field. So, once you've sat in front of that piece of gear for like 3 hours and couldn't figure out a cot damn thing, that whole allure derived from that urban myth has worn thin. Then, you say to yourself that you're just gonna take a break and come back to it, then years pass by because, every time you look at the unit, you remember the frustration and find something way more fun to do.

Then, it hits Craigslist and I'm buying it for bottom dollar...

Come to grips with the fact that most OKP's are of the Nut Hugger lineage, so, if you' re not part of the little cliques that exist 'round here, your posts will probably tank like Souljaboy's album sales.

I don't think it's "SURE AS HELL" true that the producers we revere did not understand the "math" of 54% swing. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying though...


>Those guys spent COUNTLESS hours on their chosen pieces and,
>if anything, the mastery gained from that is what led to the
>quality that they put out. Yeah, they may have used the MPC
>swing functions and knew that one particular setting felt
>better than others, but, they SURE AS HELL never knew the math
>behind it like Roger explained in that article.

>I don't think it's "SURE AS HELL" true that the producers we
>revere did not understand the "math" of 54% swing. Maybe I'm
>misunderstanding what you're saying though...

It would have been more appropriate to say that some of them may not have understood the exact mathematical equations at play in the swing mechanism.

Come to grips with the fact that most OKP's are of the Nut Hugger lineage, so, if you' re not part of the little cliques that exist 'round here, your posts will probably tank like Souljaboy's album sales.

>I'm of the opinion that everyone in this post is full o'
>shit. Yall cant tell shit, lol.

this was definitely my mindset a year ago. Remedial above articulated it very well too.

but lately i've been questioning my ears and trying to see if there really are differences between gear that i've never noticed because i wasn't listening for the right things. and further, by tuning my ear to those "right things" i figured it would help my beatmaking.

i don't know...i may be right back at the "full o shit" mindset unless i see some really compelling evidence.

Happy 50th D’Angelo: https://chrisp.bandcamp.com/track/d-50

But not machines like that.

------------------------------

50+ FREE Mixes on www.DJR-Tistic.com!

Twitter and Instagram - @DJ_RTistic

is how the hardware interprets and executes the algorithms and how differing components can cause different levels of execution with the same sequencing program
and before you start talking shit, there have been comparison tests run and it's been proven

__________________________________________
CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!!
------------------------------------
Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this