We're just past the halfway point now, and we've stepped into a new phase of The Roots career. With The Tipping Point we've reached an interesting point as it's the band's least critically acclaimed album since Organix. I wonder if that's due to an actual dip in quality or due to the rise in popularity of p4k and the like at right about this time. Hopefully we'll see with this revist. I never really understood the negative response this album got and think some of the band's best work (stay cool and web) came from here. But anyway, here we go.

I was really pleased with how the revisit of Phrenology went so we're gonna continue with that format for this one.

Two rules:
1. Over the next 7 days give Phrenology 3-5 listens
2. Come back here with your thoughts.


The Roots: The Tipping Point
Released: July 13th 2004

01. Star/Pointro (7:36)
02. I Don't Care (4:02)
03. Don't Say Nuthin' (3:35)
04. Guns Are Drawn (5:15)
05. Stay Cool (3:34)
06. Web (3:16)
07. Boom! (2:57)
08. Somebody's Gotta Do It (4:08)
09. Duck Down! (3:56)
10. Why (What's Goin' On?)(16:40)

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"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

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"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

more than I liked the song I think haha. But that said the song is still pretty damn good. I just think it may be overrated because of the sample used and all that.

But again, I really dig it.

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

Never quite understood why so many people were foaming at the mouth about this one.

That said, it's still a really good song and a great way to start off the album. Also great live. As with all of the tracks on this album, the beat bangs and Thought effortlessly kills it (albeit in his now-customary, more monotone delivery).

www.twitter.com/seandammit

“So back we go to these questions — friendship, character… ethics.”

Surprised to see a bunch of people down on it.

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

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"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

But beyond that, I like the guitars and the uptempo vibe. Always thought the chords were cool, and it just slaps you in the face. If the hook hadn't come in till after the first verse, I might listen to it more often. But the chorus always struck me as a little corny.

www.twitter.com/seandammit

The only knock is "Make one/One false move and I'll blow you away" but only because it's so unroots like. I don't know if that's everyone else's problem with the hook, but I got over that years ago.

I love the singing under the verses and how the guitar picks up in the chorus. Great energy. Definitely an underrated Roots song imo.

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

like we don't care what is being said, just make the music sound good type attitude.

“So back we go to these questions — friendship, character… ethics.”

there's nothing else in the song that necessarily supports that, though. at least not that I have considered.

www.twitter.com/seandammit

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"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

.

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------
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AMP Live of Zion I
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...which is basically a very "industry" sounding type song.

This may have put the sour taste in a lot of people's mouths, considering it was one of the first songs we heard. I mean, for the first time, it REALLY didn't sound like the music was coming from a band. And although it's very Storchy, it isn't necessarily one of his best beats.

But I always really liked the hook concept, and it's got (to me) some of Thought's most quotable lines.

I sometimes wonder how much 15's communication with us colored our perception of how we processed certain songs. I feel like it was always kind of understood (amongst us) that this was the sacrificial single that existed to appease Mr. Iovine, so you already sort of treated it as though it wasn't truly worthy of praise. But I don't know...while it's not something I would play to anyone who wanted to get a feel for who the Roots are, it's not a bad track.

www.twitter.com/seandammit

Jimmy Iovine told them to leave it like that, it was done like that because Thought hadn't finished the chorus yet

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CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!!
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Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

I noticed in my past two listens that when they beat starts I cringe or frown. It's not bad enough that it's unlistenable or anything... but I just don't like it.

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

Love the backstory about how ?uest and the production folks put an echo in the back to make it less likely that anyone would bite the beat.

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

Love the styles that they incorporated into this one. Wish they'd revisit more.

I had no idea who Aaron Livingston was, and it took me a while to realize that he was the guy who did the Icebird project with RJD2. Now I'm a big fan of his stuff and will check for anything he's involved in.

www.twitter.com/seandammit

“So back we go to these questions — friendship, character… ethics.”

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

But still, damn good shit.

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

Really dope track. Totally brings it back to the DYWM days, but thumps in the modern, "sounds like a beat" style that they had adapted. And having the horns is just such a dope addition.

Funny thing is that I know around this time they were working with Pharrell and Chad...this always sounded like a song I could hear them being involved in. I wonder if they ever considered P to get on the hook, if this was something they cooked up influenced by the work they did with the Neptunes, or what.

If that's been addressed in the liner notes, remind me...I don't have access to my shit like I used to and I know it's possible ?uest might have addressed this.

One of my favorite Roots songs.

www.twitter.com/seandammit

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

A master class in rhyming.

Amazing. One of my favorite Roots joints. So ill.

I did find it interesting when I discovered that the music was a sample (or at least a replay). I would love to know if they actually were able to match the sound by replaying it or if it's the sampled loop.

Regardless, what an amazing track. Amazing. AMAZING. AMAZZZZZZZING.

www.twitter.com/seandammit

was the first time seeing them in the summer of 2006 right before Game Theory dropped. They opened the show with Quest and Thought coming out by themselves and doing "Web" while the rest of the band slowly joined in and went right into "Here I Come".

the whole thing

i was so hype when i heard it
i was in my dorm spinning it constantly trying to learn it

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"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

I get it, he does great G Rap and Kane impersonations. But they're impersonations of those two reciting verses to songs I'd already heard a couple thousand times before this album ever dropped. I loved "Set it Off" and "Poison" too, but I don't need to hear a track of Thought spitting them verbatam, especially after spitting such a dope first verse. If he wanted to do the impressions, cool, but do them with lyrics that a completely your own (something like Dave of De La did on "Simply Havin" with his "tribute" to Nice and Smooth).

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www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

this song singlehandedly got be into Kool G and Kane

Following "Web"?!? Come on, son. COME ON!

Ridiculously raw. Also a favorite Roots song (like I said, TTP definitely has a bunch of my favorite Roots joints). And hey, a Dice hook that I actually like!

www.twitter.com/seandammit

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

n/m

okARMY
------
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www.youtube.com/easyacoustix

AMP Live of Zion I
Big KRIT's street team
Team Papoose
Rick Hughes
Bishop Lamont
MC Ren (NWA)
& good ppls are following me so far; dumping music there

The beat never really did much for me. And it never seemed like a real well put together song. More like just a bunch of verses thrown together with a hook. Thought and Jean do their thing, not so into Mack Dub. Kind of hard to follow the Stay Cool-Web-Boom trifecta.

www.twitter.com/seandammit

dope song though.

“So back we go to these questions — friendship, character… ethics.”

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

Same reason I never really loved "Rolling with Heat" off Phrenology.

And the hook...same reason I didn't really love "I Don't Care" earlier in the album.

Ehhhhh?

That said...upon revisiting...this isn't that bad. Just not my favorite song. But Thought kills it, and the pace/cadence of the beat is definitely dope. Stripped down, and really lets Thought do his thing.

www.twitter.com/seandammit

i'm all about this beat

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

Not anything too crazy, but I like the chorus and the overall mood felt good...especially on an album that felt particularly "light".

It's funny, after addressing my initial thoughts on this album, then reassessing after playing it a few times this week, and then finally going through and putting my individual thoughts on each song...

...this album really gets by on that middle streak. It's filled with songs I feel either "ehh" to "it's cool" about, but the three songs that I like I REALLY FUCKING LIKE. Somehow, 2+2 = 9.

www.twitter.com/seandammit

When I dream it's hounds on my heels gainin' momentum
I'm tired, can't get uninspired or quit runnin'
I can feel they only inches behind, I escape, I survive
Some how I gotta decide how much I want it
Or is anybody listenin' without a pot to piss in
If I disappear I wonder if the world will know I'm missin'
Who my support system, it's not the court system
Gotta letter it said that you're not avoiding prison
People 'neath the microscope cause we defining the culture
They smile and insult you like you shinin' their loafers
Them old heads say we need a modern day Moses
When the leaders is posers we needing some soldiers
It's the X generation, The anger is a nature
Got the writing on the wall so clear that I can taste it
Like a kid sniffing glue somewhere trying to escape
Cause we vulnerable and naked
Gotta show 'em we can make it

--sig--
n/a

This song and parts of Guns are Drawn ("they about to make another patriot act again") and part of what was a very interesting phenomenon in hip hop (and bigger than hip hop). Bush was a galvanizing force that made everyone political for a period. Jadakiss made "Why?" Diddy was talking about Vote or Die. Immortal Technique was at his zenith (and has barely made any noise since). It was a very interesting time looking back.

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

Fun! And how often do we get to hear the Roots having fun on record?

Just a fun, stylin' track. I also always loved Thought's verse and the reoccurring "huhh" motif throughout.

www.twitter.com/seandammit

.

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

I dig it. Never against more musicality on Roots albums, and this has that going for it as well. Glad that it got reissued on the Homegrown compilation so that I can easily listen to it as its own track.

www.twitter.com/seandammit

I think it would have loosened up the straight-laced, clean soundng beats of Tipping point, the way that "boom" did. It would have been nice to hear this startngoff side B or even ending the album instead of the lazy "Why" song.

Overall I always felt The Tipping Point was unfocused and all over the place in terms of mood. I feel "Din Da Da" was them a their mos focused mysterious, and blackest in terms of effect. I still have no idea how dreck like "I don't care" got on the album proper ahead of this great song.

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http://adevotedappraisal.tumblr.com - Essays, reviews, short stories and free writes on music, film and life around us.

I love the energy of it, shame I never got to hear them do it live.

phemom's the name, all-star writer/
searching 4 journalistic fame, mindframe igniter....www.twitter.com/hayabusaage

worst Roots album besides the laughable Organix. star is a monster though.

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"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

in light of this thread, no. But probably 20 when it dropped.

why you even in here? lol

As a preface, I've been revisiting this album quite a bit recently, especially after The Tipping Point.

But I also never got the negative response surrounding this album. I don't know if it's because it's probably their most "straight-forward" album that they released. I don't if people just didn't like "Don't Say Nothing" as the single. I don't know if it's because it's so Black Thought-centric. If it's the latter, then it's really bizarre, because before this album's release, there was of talk how BT wasn't in the spotlight enough.

I'm cooling with the Black Thought-centricness of it all. Though it seems like a few of the tracks on "Phrenology" were adapted from the never-to-be-released "Masterpiece Theater," this album really showcased Thought's ability to hold down tracks on his own, and a result, you get a whole lot of 5-star BT performances: Star, Web, Guns Are Drawn, Stay Cool, and Why.

I still maintain this is really good album, and in the upper tier of hip-hop albums released in the '00s.

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Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

The Tipping Point is the only album that makes me feel like Thought is doing a great job carrying it on his own...which is ironic because it also features the least amount of guests, compared to other records.

www.twitter.com/seandammit

That's not counting Organix since that was basically a demo. I only go back to four songs on this album. "Star/Pointro", "Guns Are Drawn", "Stay Cool" and "Why (What's Goin On?)". The other joints get that quick skip action. I will give it a few spins this week to see if my opinion has changed on the other songs.

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Falcons, Braves, Bulldogs and Hawks

Geto Boys, Poison Clan, UGK, Eightball & MJG, OutKast, Goodie Mob

It was cool on the first listen but that beat just does nothing for me at all. Thought murdered it though but it's rare that I can make it through that song due to the beat. It's odd because I love "75 Bars" on Rising Down.

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Falcons, Braves, Bulldogs and Hawks

Geto Boys, Poison Clan, UGK, Eightball & MJG, OutKast, Goodie Mob

just wow.

you heard the live version from Homegrown?

http://i42.tinypic.com/sq1ct1.jpg

okARMY
------
www.twitter.com/bouncerockswing
www.youtube.com/easyacoustix

AMP Live of Zion I
Big KRIT's street team
Team Papoose
Rick Hughes
Bishop Lamont
MC Ren (NWA)
& good ppls are following me so far; dumping music there

When this album came out, ,I thought it was such a disappointment. I remember I was in NYC at the time, and was seeing promo posters abound, and I was just geeked. Could hardly wait for a new Roots album.

Funny, coming off Phrenology, that I felt so let down and felt....cheated by what I received with TTP. Sure, there were some tracks that were good, but songs like "Don't Say Nuthin'," "Somebody's Gotta Do It," "Duck Down," and "I Don't Care" hurt my soul. Not only did I feel like these were too slick and lacked the character of the previous albums, but the album was the short! Way shorter than what we'd come to expect from this group.

So over time, I basically ranked this pretty low...while still acknowledging that, paradoxically, it contained some of their best songs ("Web," "Star," "Boom," "Stay Cool").

After revisiting? This is not a bad album AT ALL.

Maybe it's easier to digest now that I've seen where they went (and also have seen the direction that music as a whole has gone towards these days), but there's not much that you can complain about when talking about this record. Thought kills it, the guest spots are kept to a minimum (always a big complaint for me when it comes to post-TTP albums), and the beats generally bang. Some are a bit different than you'd expect based on what they'd released up to that point. But I listened to this one way more than any of the others upon revisiting for this little experiment.

I think if anything, this one felt like less of "an album" than the ones that preceded it because it didn't seem as strongly linked together via concept/sound/etc. Ironically, that relatively-stripped approach may be why I have been playing this non-stop this week. It's just fun and easy to get into. Kind of surprised at how quickly this one ascended the ranks.

Ok, enough talking here, let me get into the individual song posts...

www.twitter.com/seandammit

1. Star - The chorus is skippable. Thought's verses are cool, but don't stand out, and i could have done without the kylie minogue line. what makes Star a must listen though is the breakdown about four and a half mins in.

2. I Don't Care - Another meh chorus, followed by maybe Black Thought's worst verse. Not wack, but very plain. I do like Thought's second verse though. That one is dope as fuck. But then he follows it with a fairly bland third verse. The beat is okay, but it just doesn't stand out to me.

3. Don't Say Nothin' - I like the spoken part of the chorus and wish they had built on that, but as is it's okay to me. Thought spits like the Thought we all know. Ill as fuck. The beat is dope, but not on the level of what Storch was giving other cats.

4. Guns Are Drawn - I always liked this beat. I love Thought's verses on this, and like the chorus. Not amazing, but a really cool song that I listen to from time to time.

5. Stay Cool - Wish this had been pushed as a summer song with a good video. Really dope, even though I'm constantly singing "ego trip ego trip" in my head. One of the best songs on the album.

6. Web - My favorite song. Amazing. Definitely "Best Of" caliber. Beat, rhymes, flow, etc...ridiculous.

7. Boom! - Crazy follow up to Web. Dope ass idea done right.

8. Somebody's Gotta Do It - I really like this song and love the collab.

9. Duck Down - Don't care for the beat. It isn't bad, but it's normally a skipper for me.

10. Why - Cool song, nice beat, but doesn't stand out amidst all the other amazing Roots' songs.

11. In Love With The Mic - Love Chappelle's ad libs. Thought murders it. MURDERS. Great live song, great uptempo beat.

12. Din Da Da - I love this more than most of the songs on the album.



Tipping Point is the worst Roots album imho, but not because it has no good songs. It even has classic Roots' songs, but it has no direction. It feels like a collection of songs instead of a cohesive album. compared to Phrenology before it and Game Theory after it, it almost seems like a half hearted cash grab by a label after a group has left.

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>Tipping Point is the worst Roots album imho, but not because
>it has no good songs. It even has classic Roots' songs, but it
>has no direction. It feels like a collection of songs instead
>of a cohesive album.

Because we've gotten albums that are definitely more cohesive since, but the songs have mostly not been there.

www.twitter.com/seandammit

it was like 4 or 5 songs, that was really cool though.

“So back we go to these questions — friendship, character… ethics.”

I have been enjoying these posts but I do agree there could be more discussion as opposed to just people's thoughts and memories.

For starters, I think we should switch the artist up. Going through an artists' entire catelogue is tough in this format when considering how large some of these catelogues are. For some of us, if you listen to an album 3-5 times throughout the week, that is taking up all the listening time. And when artists like The Roots have 10+ albums that means we're listening to only that artists for more than 2 months.

I would say random album selections would increase the participation.

Also, I like the idea of breaking it down song by song, but I also think we should throw in sub-topics like "best verse" etc. to hopefully get more discussion going.

Just some ideas.

>I have been enjoying these posts but I do agree there could
>be more discussion as opposed to just people's thoughts and
>memories.

>For starters, I think we should switch the artist up. Going
>through an artists' entire catelogue is tough in this format
>when considering how large some of these catelogues are. For
>some of us, if you listen to an album 3-5 times throughout the
>week, that is taking up all the listening time. And when
>artists like The Roots have 10+ albums that means we're
>listening to only that artists for more than 2 months.

I've been thinking about how to do this, but the selection process is tough. How do we decide what to revisit? I have my own thoughts of things I'd like to revisit with the lesson, but that doesn't mean any one else gives 2 shits about those artists/albums. The Roots was a safe place to start.

>
>I would say random album selections would increase the
>participation.
>
>Also, I like the idea of breaking it down song by song, but I
>also think we should throw in sub-topics like "best verse"
>etc. to hopefully get more discussion going.
>
>Just some ideas.


What's stopping you from posting that within the thread? I got no problems with that.

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"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

Some will get more response than others.

Set up some type of criteria, i.e. the albums have to be at least 10 years old. You must post one album at a time in the subject field. Give it about a week and see which albums are mentioned the most and choose from that.

******************************************
Falcons, Braves, Bulldogs and Hawks

Geto Boys, Poison Clan, UGK, Eightball & MJG, OutKast, Goodie Mob

i figure Mos would naturally be next

I'm just saying don't go through every one of their albums.

the whole point is to run through the whole discog so you can rate and think about the artist while its all fresh in your mind

“So back we go to these questions — friendship, character… ethics.”

And I think the change-up in format starting with Phren (suggested by yours truly, COUGH COUGH) has shown an improvement. I don't think that we need to wait for formatted posts within the post to get specific discussions going. We could all be doing "best verse" responses etc.

The interaction/conversation has improved a bit, but I do agree it could be upped.

www.twitter.com/seandammit

The Def Jam Era

The Fallon Era

Might not have that much luck with others...and it would be good timing right now since we are ending the Geffen/MCA/Jimmy Iovine Era