no one is arguing about lyrical ability in this post.


He's probably the most influential lyricist since Rakim Allah ... so lets get that shit out the way ok??


but he's the WORST rapper-producer in rap history.



apologists: explain why he's not underneath



I say there hasn't been a great with so much potential yet so little understanding of hip hop's foundation in the history of the genre as this cat



is there any precedent for this?

i even played The Cross a good bit

but for the most part he's garbo

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/CornetteFace_4208.jpg

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i just want to opine in peace.

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phemom's the name, all-star writer/
searching 4 journalistic fame, mindframe igniter....www.twitter.com/hayabusaage

do we compare other legends (Big, Pac, etc) with Cudi???


this the kind of apologist shit I'm talking about



I'll say it again: Eminem is the most disappointing cat in hip hop history

but to be fair, you said "he's the worst rapper-producer in hip-hop history," this dood named a worse one, and now you're nitpicking because Cudi isn't a legend?

You gotta lay out your parameters better or stop moving goal posts. If your real purpose was to say that he's the most disappointing legend/artist in history then just say that.

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

Cudi is way worse at making beats for himself than Em.

I didn't know this was about who's disappointing tho.

phemom's the name, all-star writer/
searching 4 journalistic fame, mindframe igniter....www.twitter.com/hayabusaage

>but to be fair, you said "he's the worst rapper-producer in
>hip-hop history," this dood named a worse one, and now you're
>nitpicking because Cudi isn't a legend?
>
>You gotta lay out your parameters better or stop moving goal
>posts. If your real purpose was to say that he's the most
>disappointing legend/artist in history then just say that.

>but he's the WORST rapper-producer in rap history.

That's what you said.

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

>>but he's the WORST rapper-producer in rap history.
>
>That's what you said


" there hasnt been a great with this much potential..."


Is Cudi considered a great or something? Lmao


This post struck a nerve i see

Your statement in the OP was "Eminem is the worst rapper-producer in rap history." That's a standalone statement.

You said it again in the body of your post, seen below:


>no one is arguing about lyrical ability in this post.
>
>
>He's probably the most influential lyricist since Rakim Allah ... so >lets get that shit out the way ok??
>
>
>*******but he's the WORST rapper-producer in rap history.*******

Again, the statement is made. You acknowledged his lyrical talent and ability and said he was influential, but your statement about his overall talent as a rap producer remains, what would appear to be judging by the way YOU wrote it, a standalone point. And the overarching theme of your post.

Then you said:


>apologists: explain why he's not underneath
>
>
>
>I say there hasn't been a great with so much potential yet so little >understanding of hip hop's foundation in the history of the genre as >this cat

This is what you used to counter my point about your lack of written communication skills. The quote you used (your last paragraph) is another point ENTIRELY. You're trying to tell me that:

"he's the worst rapper-producer in rap history"
and,
"there hasn't been a great rapper with so much potential yet so little understanding of hip-hop's foundation in the history of the genre"

...are statements saying the exact same thing?

You're wrong.

One point states that he's not a good rapper-producer. Lacks talent.
The other point states that he doesn't understand where hip-hop comes from.

ENTIRELY different statements.

Learn to write better. The cat you responded to responded to your first point and named a worse rapper-producer and you countered by defending your second, completely unrelated point and proceeded to call him an "apologist." It ain't on that poser, it's on you. Learn to frame your bad posts better and maybe the misunderstandings won't take place.

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

I love when people get into little arguments and then someone comes in and logically destroys the other person without insults, ad hominem attacks, bad grammar, strawmen, etc.

_________________________________
Yes Yes Y'all

Tryna tell me how to post

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS WAS YOUR RESPONSE.

But more importantly: I never told you how to post. I coached you on how to communicate in written form so that normal humans could understand you and comprehend your convoluted, messy bullshit better and respond to it in kind.

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

Great work fellas

-------------------
I wanna go to where the martyrs went
the brown figures on the walls of my apart-a-ment...

And you got smacked... take the L and move on.

--

damn lmao

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seriously?


hahahaha

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supplement to this post



could you imagine if this cat, with an incredible lyrical ability, had a foundation in the black musical tradition like other greats have had?


fucking travesty really

but hes not the best or in my top in any way

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"and suddenly the ghetto didnt seem so tough u thought u had it rough we always had enough"~tupac

like Wilt Chamberlin and Shaq couldn't shoot free throws that well and yet it doesn't take away from said Impact. I ain't big on EM, though he is witty and cleaver with his low and Lyrics, however his fan base ain't stopped supporting him 15 years deep.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNcEn1j0SHI

.

>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNcEn1j0SHI

Its so obvious your entire hip hop existence started with Em





I

if you've seen the video

Bandcamp/IG/FB/Twitter: @hecticzeniths

He produced the best beat on the MMLP 2 (Brainless). Shit's fire.

www.newzbomb.com

Cant imagine being such an outlier to this shit

Bad combination.

to agree or disagree but I will NEVER forgive him or Afeni that horrid 2Pac album he produced years ago.

Those beats were doodoo and it was almost like it was on purpose considering Em and Dre were unstoppable at that point in time.

I want to talk to Jesus, my mama, and Marvin Gaye when I get to heaven.

I think Em can make much better music than he does. I think he chooses to make the junk he often makes because he knows it will sell. Think about some of the bullshit that was selling like crazy during his ascendance - Kid Rock and nu metal, for example. Think about the material that made the Beasties famous, then compare it to the funkier material they made (like Paul's Botique) that were more or less disregarded.

I truly believe Eminem could make a good album for the heads if he wanted. Maybe not a classic, but a good record. He might not make all the beats himself; he should be able to pick some good ones, though. But he has no interest in making that album, because sampling a few classic rock staples and putting Rihanna on the hook of a horrible rap/rock hybrid is what makes the paper and keeps him in the (pop culture) conversation.

Really good rap hasn't sold on the level that Eminem sells in, arguably, a decade. Let that sink in. Great, established artists who still make quality hip hop don't sell like they used to, and they certainly don't sell like Eminem. The best artist going who makes real hip hop, IMO, is Kendrick Lamar - and while he's doing better than I had dared to hope he would, his album (against all odds) just passed a million sales recently. Jay-Z's last really good album (American Gangster) has just cracked a million. Em will do almost that in a week. "Recovery" (which was a pile of garbo) sold 10 million. TEN MILLION. Please go tell one of the last remaining multi-platinum pop icons (alongside Adele) why he should make a "good kid, m.A.A.d city" when he can churn out another platter of bullshit with obvious samples and almost no funk in it, and sell ten times as much.

--

Look at the people he signs. The beats he makes/chooses. I truly believe he thinks albums like MMLP2 and Recovery are good albums. He needs a real executive producer who with the balls to tell him no and make the creative decisions for him.

>Look at the people he signs. The beats he makes/chooses. I
>truly believe he thinks albums like MMLP2 and Recovery are
>good albums. He needs a real executive producer who with the
>balls to tell him no and make the creative decisions for him.

Why would he though? He sells and sells and sells. Whether he likes his own music or not, he has a recipe that generates money effortlessly. He's a corporation unto himself. You act like you're making an appeal to an artist, but he's an artist second (if at all, anymore).

I don't think either of our takes on it is provable, but either way, there's no monetary argument to be made here. And when you're selling 10 million copies of a shitty record, I don't think you're going to be in a hurry to make a better (and very different) one, no matter who you are.

The main reasons I think he has better music in him, for the record:
- The Infinite shows he has more influences than what he's shown on all his subsequent stuff. I don't think it's a great record or even a particularly good one, but it was basically a demo. If he chose to go back in that direction I think he could far exceed it... if he wanted.

- He obviously has been immersed in hip hop at some point. If you hear him talk about it in interviews, it's not like he's just some rapping savant who has never actually heard a good hip hop record. He knows his shit, he has heard all the classics and knows a good rapper from a bad one. That doesn't guarantee that he can make good music himself (lots of people have good taste in what they listen to but their own music is shit) - but it should mean he at least has the taste to hire good producers and beatmakers, IF HE WANTS. He just doesn't want, for some reason.

--

You act
>like you're making an appeal to an artist, but he's an artist
>second (if at all, anymore).

So while I agree that his music and albums pander to the lowest common denominator (Rihanna on hooks, crappy emo beats, etc...) I still think the lyrics are on point and you absolutely CANNOT say that he doesn't care about his craft on the mic. He loves that part of his art and I think he works his BALLS off and takes great pride in it. For example on the new album he said he challenged himself on one track to rhyme the same sound throughout the entirety of the song. If that's not a man working hard and challenging himself to better his craft, I don't know what is.

So IMO, they're two separate things. I think he crafts his albums for the masses while still spitting lyrics for the heads. It's just too bad those two things don't match up well at all in his case.

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

Thanks for your thoughts.

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he was making GREAT music in the 02-04 (pre-Encore) timeframe. All the Shady shit was pretty dope...tracks like We All Die One Day, Love Me, etc. That was great hip-hop. Then of course TES and 8 Mile. He was killing it. So it ain't like he doesn't know what good rap sounds like.

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

He's made some good-to-great music. He just doesn't choose to keep making it.

--

I'm with you. I was just responding to the other poster in that I think that while it seems by and large he does have crappy taste in music, it wasn't always that way. Maybe it was the influence of people who had good ears like Game and 50, but during that 2-3 year period Em was putting out and producing and featuring on tracks that had great grooves. Love Me is one that immediately jumps out.

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

about his anal focus on his craft, to the detriment of other things

http://www.hiphopdx.com/index/editorials/id.2217/title.eminem-the-reluctant-rap-god

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

here's an interview with Jeff Bass (one half of the Bass Bros), stating why he and Em don't work together as much anymore (a topic I've always wanted to know more about since they had great chemistry)...and he explicitly states that Em doesn't come from a musical background...

http://www.hiphopdx.com/index/news/id.26157/title.jeff-bass-explains-estranged-eminem-relationship

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

I'm sure lots of rappers don't come from traditional musical backgrounds, but this?

"Because he doesn’t come from a musical background. We had to figure out a way emotionally to get through to him. So how I approached it is, any song that had a happy feel we’d call a happy tune. Angry, sad, violent — we’d use adjectives to get through to him. So that he could write the type of lyrics that’d go with the track."

Amazing to think that maybe the guy can't ever hear that. Maybe he knows rhythm and rhyme inside and out, but anything else is outside his experience and over his head. That's crazy.

--

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

if you're talking about someone who's great at rapping or producing, but not the other.

Although you may be talking about rappers who also happen to make beats, which Madlib wouldn't be.

I hate Em's beats. But I can sit through them. I can't do that with Madlib's rhymes.

Encore was half-decent, MMLP and SSLP were solid but I wouldn't say good. Eminem Show is really bad. Recovery and MMLP2 also.

People talk shit about Nas' beat selection, but his worst produced LP >>>> Eminem's best (beat wise).

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