conspiracy against these Black Artists amongest others discuss.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

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we'll never get their approval.
which is just as well, because their approval is unnecessary.
and anyway, begging for anything is the quickest way to not get it.



i didn't need the rock and roll hall of fame
to tell me that p-funk was the baddest band on the planet.

i have my own ears,
and they are just as valid as the rock establishment.
i'll be just fine without them, and so will you.

I'd move on.

and they've been inducting blacks since the 1st set of inductees.

the acts maxxx named aren't inducted for reasons unconnected to race. they're not in b/c they don't belong. b/c they didn't make Rock music and the music they made didn't have any of that Rock & Roll spirit in it. no rebellion. very milquetoast.

there are plenty similar milquetoast non-black acts who've sold as many records or more and have images as large as those acts who haven't been inducted and won't be inducted.

fuck you.

Go Smack yourself and then apologize to your hand for looking stupid - Case_One

http://i54.tinypic.com/nxros2.jpg

Lionel Richie with or without the commodores belongs twice.

Rick James belongs just on his music used for a whole different style and era in the sampling looping argument.

Whitney Houston belongs. she is one of the greatest female artists ever.

turkey just because you don't like them don't mean they don't belong.

you got served.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

>Lionel Richie with or without the commodores belongs
>twice.

naw. great acts who made some great stuff but we're talking about the "Rock And Roll Hall of Fame" here. keywords: Rock and Roll.

Lionel & the Commodores didn't make Rock & Roll. their music had little of the spirit of Rock & Roll in it. EWF is already in the RRHOF and they made similar music, so i can understand why you think the Commodores belong. but EWF's induction undercuts your argument about race - b/c EWF is as Black as the Commodores. well, a bit less so b/c EWF was more of a cross-over act. but the membership was just as Black.

what's the difference between the acts? why EWF and not the Commodores? i dunno. but maybe it's b/c EWF's music is 'deeper' than the Commodores. plus they sold more records and had a bigger impact and were on the Rockist's radar (see: Sgt. Peppers movie). maybe they were on that radar b/c of their stage show. but they definitely get a level of respect from the Rockists that the Commodores don't get.

>Rick James belongs just on his music used for a whole
>different style and era in the sampling looping argument.

'U Can't Touch This' ain't gonna get him inducted. of the 3 you're talking about i think Rick has the best shot b/c of his Rock past and his rebellious energy. but i won't cry foul if he's not inducted.

>Whitney Houston belongs. she is one of the greatest female
>artists ever.

so is Barbra Streisand and she ain't getting in.

>turkey just because you don't like them don't mean they don't
>belong.

i like all 3 of those acts, player.

fuck you.

Lionel Richie had a Ray Charles type of career hit in R&B,Pop and country.

he is our Black Lennon or Mccartney in terms of leaving a very successful band and having a even greater solo career in terms of being a main writer first.

the commodores had a film as well "thank god its friday" which bombed like sgt peppers and that's the way of the world film.

truth is in popularity it was neck in neck on the pop side of town for ewf and the commodores, on the R&B side ewf won in a big way, still having that solo career counts for everything and Lionel did it up in a real way. dude just had a huge country album that hit pop a year ago.

Richie did it all period. got money tracks, classic albums, great tours, jewelry(industry awards) what else you want?

Whitney been where so few Black male let alone black female acts has been. she went where diana ross and chaka khan didn't reach as far as a solo career. Whitney is on the same mountrushmore as them and Aretha Franklin for my money.


Rick James big albums, songs,tours, Jewelry longevity. in Clive Davis's book he said thaT Rick was one of the most important R&B acts of the 80's and he wasn't all cool with RJ, but he understood rick's reach and depth to the music

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

>he is our Black Lennon or Mccartney in terms of leaving a very
>successful band and having a even greater solo career in terms
>of being a main writer first.
>



he's not our Black Lennon or McCartney.
he's Lionel Richie.

stop putting our artists on the chiterling circuit in your mind.
your conditioning has been conditioned.


this is like when some people will find out that i went to hampton,
and they'll be like, "oh. that's the black harvard."

and i say, "no, it's hampton university."
it stands on its own.

because it's an HBCU, and it doesn't need (and doesn't have) a white
counterpart.

and make up your mind you either feel he should be in the hall or not. alot of my family went to Hampton u. good for you homie.

if lionel was White he would be talked about as much as lennon and mccartney put together because his songs are timeless.

turkey i'm one of the few in here who stays Black with it 100% can ya dig it turkey?

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i love soul and r&b more than rock,
so i don't pay much attention to what rolling stone has to say.

if i want to learn about soul music,
i don't go to back issues of rolling stone, because they don't know
what they are talking about.

like i said, i don't need their validation.
neither do you.




>and make up your mind you either feel he should be in the
>hall or not. alot of my family went to Hampton u. good for
>you homie.
>
>if lionel was White he would be talked about as much as lennon
>and mccartney put together because his songs are timeless.
>
>turkey i'm one of the few in here who stays Black with it 100%
> can ya dig it turkey?

there due and acting like the business ain't racist is being in denial.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

>he's not our Black Lennon or McCartney.
>he's Lionel Richie.
>

i say this all the time

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>this is like when some people will find out that i went to
>hampton,
>and they'll be like, "oh. that's the black harvard."

Go Smack yourself and then apologize to your hand for looking stupid - Case_One

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i lived in Hampton and had family and friends go to Hampton and I never heard that at all. not a once.

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usually from white ppl that were barely familiar with the school.
it was possibly meant as one of those condescending, passive-agressive, dismissive slights that's supposed to look like a compliment on the surface.

or maybe they were just making small talk, and that's only thing they could say about hampton. i dunno.


but anyway, it's a stupid comparrison and i'm glad you've never heard it.


>>this is like when some people will find out that i went to
>>hampton,
>>and they'll be like, "oh. that's the black harvard."
>

>Lionel Richie had a Ray Charles type of career hit in
>R&B,Pop and country.

LOL.

Ray Charles created a genre of music basically on his own. nice try though.

>he is our Black Lennon or Mccartney in terms of leaving a very
>successful band and having a even greater solo career in terms
>of being a main writer first.

LOL

i'd give that title to MJ if i were giving it out. actually, i think it better suits Stevie Wonder if i weren't being so literal about the band vs. solo thing and were more concerned about the quality of songwriting and all that jazz.

>the commodores had a film as well "thank god its friday" which
>bombed like sgt peppers and that's the way of the world film.

i brought up Sgt Pepper's to say that EWF was on the Rockist radar back when the group was hot. there's a reason the band got that gig instead of the Commodores or Cameo or Kool & the Gang or several other similar bands from that era.

>truth is in popularity it was neck in neck on the pop side of
>town for ewf and the commodores

close numbers, yes.

, on the R&B side ewf won in a
>big way, still having that solo career counts for everything
>and Lionel did it up in a real way. dude just had a huge
>country album that hit pop a year ago.

yeah, but none of that is enough to qualify the group for the RRHOF.

>Richie did it all period. got money tracks, classic albums,
>great tours, jewelry(industry awards) what else you want?

music that's not milquetoast.

>Whitney been where so few Black male let alone black female
>acts has been. she went where diana ross and chaka khan
>didn't reach as far as a solo career. Whitney is on the same
>mountrushmore as them and Aretha Franklin for my money.

Whitney is a first ballot R&B HOF inductee. same for the Pop HOF. but the RRHOF? nope.

for the same reason as Lionel - milquetoast music.

RRHOF induction ain't (just) a popularity contest. it's not just about the quality of the work produced. it's also about the content. Whitney doesn't belong b/c the content of her music and her branding and all of that doesn't add up to _ROCK AND ROLL_.

>Rick James big albums, songs,tours, Jewelry longevity. in
>Clive Davis's book he said thaT Rick was one of the most
>important R&B acts of the 80's and he wasn't all cool with
>RJ, but he understood rick's reach and depth to the music

again, of the 3 you've listed he's got the best shot not just b/c of his accomplishments but b/c of the content of his work.

Ray did more styles, however in the modern pop over the past 30 plus years to act like Lionel didn't have cuts that crossed different genres is just wrong and shows your hate. his solo albums were versatile, the cat just did a ray charles move, took alot of his biggest hits and did them country some 25-30 year old songs, nuff said. take a "L" stand on the side

MJ was the bigger act yeah, however he was never the songwriter that Richie was, get them facts straight homie.

turkey as if buddy holly,ricky nelson, rem aren't exactly cut out from "my three sons"? them white boys are as milky as "leave it to beaver"


whitney belongs she took a country song and flipped it,made it a worldwide anthem. take your "L" and hide turkey.


you got served

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fuck you.

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fuck you.

i just hate all of the arguments where we are
begging for our music to get viewed in the same light.

it won't be.
it shouldn't be.

this was probably more of a reaction to other posts maxxx has made.
he's always talking about "____ never got their due."

but ___ DID get their due.
from us.

their fans.
that's enough.

and their are folks who hate not getting their due, go ask War how they feel not getting while the beastie boys did?

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Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

>and they've been inducting blacks since the 1st set of
>inductees.
>
>the acts maxxx named aren't inducted for reasons unconnected
>to race. they're not in b/c they don't belong. b/c they
>didn't make Rock music and the music they made didn't have any
>of that Rock & Roll spirit in it. no rebellion. very
>milquetoast.
>
>there are plenty similar milquetoast non-black acts who've
>sold as many records or more and have images as large as those
>acts who haven't been inducted and won't be inducted.


This ^^^^ is about the long and short of it....

The Rock N Roll tag is what's really at the center of all this...

There are certain acts that are so iconic, so larger than life that you can't keep them out of the Hall even as world beating pop acts (MJ, the Bee Gees, Abba, and Madonna come to mind...They were so big u couldn't front on their impact on the culture of music itself)....Add the fact that these acts at times dabbled in "rock" music, cosmetically, helps...

But you hit it out of the park, What...It's tough for a middle of the road acts to make it in (Lionel, Whitney, Barbara, Celine, ect...)...

The only reason Linda Rondstadt has a good case of getting in is because of her soft rock connect (she not only discovered The Eagles, but was a huge part of that soft rock revolution that happened alongside James Taylor, Jackson Browne, ect...)

To me Rick James is the one out of the three that has the best chance of making it...The problem is his career to most rock critics is boiled down to just Street Songs and MC Hammer, as unfair as that may be...They don't know what kind of a monster Rick was in general...

But Whitney & Lionel?

I would be shocked if either of them got in...Just maybe, Whitney may get in at some point because of her death (dying has a way of transforming a music legacy)...But yeah, it most likely won't happen...

The R&R Hall is pretty straight forward in its picks...When they go outside the traditional "rock" bubble, they usually go for funk and soul acts that turned the rock fan on...

That's why Bobby Womack, who has that Sam Cooke connection and a connection with the Rolling Stones, is in...

This is why P-Funk is in (they were the rock communities' favorite funk outfit...rebellious, left field, wild...Rock heads ate them up...

This is why EW&F are in (They put on groundbreaking tours that had that Kiss and Led Zep-type money behind them...Rock heads love serious "musicians"...That was Maurice and them...Conceptual and highly serious critical darlings...)...

Hell, I wouldn't be surprised to see Luther V. and Sade make it before Lionel and them...Considering that Luther spent his early days as a rock session singer (His GREAT vocals are all over some David Bowie's best work....) And Sade, who works in that jazz influenced realm, may get in because of her overall longevity and the fact that she could never be pinned down...(i.e., Sade never went that milquetoast route...)

So, um...yeah...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

you tripping now and also they pick who they want period if it wasn't picky thing then Chic and war would have been in.

Rick James should have been in like 10 years ago.

at the end of the day it comes to it being Pop Music don't get it twisted and Lionel belongs as does Whitney as does Rick and Barry.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

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>you tripping now and also they pick who they want period if
>it wasn't picky thing then Chic and war would have been in.


Chic will get in sooner or later...Just as Donna did...Disco was too influential to ignore, especially with EDM being the most influential music over the last 10 years...

>Rick James should have been in like 10 years ago.

Rock critics and writers only know him for one album, unfortunately....


>at the end of the day it comes to it being Pop Music don't get
>it twisted and Lionel belongs as does Whitney as does Rick and
>Barry.


I could def. see Barry making it in...Those rock heads love some soul music....Plus Barry was able to connect with disco in such a way that he never seemed like he was jumping on the band wagon....He has the hits, the albums and that 70s impact....

Don't see Lionel ever getting in though...Too middle of the road for voters....His solo career dwarfs his great work with the Commodores...

Whitney is an interesting case though...Yep, she made music that was so far removed from the energy of rock and roll...And as SoWhat said, Streisand is not even in the Hall, so that should tell you something...

BUT, Whitney's death could change all that...As stated when such a popular act like Whitney dies they tend to become larger than life...I can see this happening with Whitney...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

aside from LIONEl Man, we are actually speaking the same language.


i still see him getting in because his track record and versatility speak for itself Man. Chic is being hated on despite the fact Nile Rodgers done played or Produced for a whose who of Hall of Famers.

however he never grinned and shucked. Barry White should have been in 20 years back.

Chic should have been in 10 years back.

believe me if Donna Summer didn't die(and it pains me to say) she wouldn't have gotten the nod. to me it shows how jive it truly is.

War didn't get in and that is a joke right there.

since Lionel Richie wrote most of those classic Commodore songs or co wrote, he should have been in just as a Songwriter. i mean the numbers and impact don't lie.

and a Motown SuperStar is a Motown Superstar right? right?

Richie as a songwriter is sitting there with Smokey, Stevie,Marvin, Whitfield,Barrett, Holland, Dozier and Holland

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it takes time...i will say it will get tougher though with all the hip hop acts starting to get eligible...but Whitney will get in...Lionel will get in...Rick James is tough...

I mean...I thought Rush was already in...wasn't aware that they wasn't in until I read about it...

This year's class is going to be tough...A hip hop act should take a slot...but its very possible it doesn't happen...Probably would put N.W.A. in before LL to get more members in but who knows???

does it take?!

*
*
*

It took Heart almost 40 years (more than that if you count their original incarnation). Donna Summer got in after almost 40 years. Some acts get in during their first opportunity. Some acts have to wait. It happens.

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and of the 3 Rick is only one who kinda belongs. those other 2 just don't belong in the ROCK AND ROLL Hall of Fame.

fuck you.

then no rappers would be in ya dig?

REM is in. i mean if Bob Dylan gets in before Lionel Richie then i know something is wrong and dylan was a folk artist.

Whitney should be their as well.

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that's what it means to rolling stone.
yeah, all american popular music has some links back to race music.
that's not what we are talking about here.

that's how rolling stone defines rock and roll, for the purposes of the Hall of Fame.

there's a reason p-funk got in
but frankie beverly and maze did not.
that's why.





>then no rappers would be in ya dig?
>
>REM is in. i mean if Bob Dylan gets in before Lionel Richie
>then i know something is wrong and dylan was a folk artist.
>
>Whitney should be their as well.

ain't no rebel in it. REM ain't no rebels, Sylvester is more of a Rebel than them constipated turkeys music.

frankie beverly and maze should get in. live in new orleans alone says yeah.

they only want a select few of negroes i know

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but there is a certain kind of rebel sound that they are looking for.

it make sense for old school rap artists to get in
because there are so many parallels between rap and punk.

i'd expect rock critics to dig certain rap artists.



>ain't no rebel in it. REM ain't no rebels, Sylvester is more
>of a Rebel than them constipated turkeys music.
>
>frankie beverly and maze should get in. live in new orleans
>alone says yeah.
>
>they only want a select few of negroes i know

oh yeah buddy holly and ricky nelson were rebels huh? they want what they want in period. the thing is fake

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LOL

of course they're in.

fuck you.

their criteria.
their tastes.
their definition of rock and roll.


btw, this is why i dig the music snobs podcast so much.
they talk about black music the way a magazine like rolling stone would talk about black music if rolling stone was a publication that focused on black music.


and they do it WITHOUT sounding like they are begging for validation
from rock critics.

that was actually a point they made in their latest podcast about
VIBE magazine. about how they'd always look at the cover of rolling
stone magazine and hope for maybe a name in the margins
for an artist that they really cared about.

then VIBE came along, and it was something for us.


and now, on their podcast, they don't even cop pleas about
"why won't they recognize our artists?"
who cares if they do?

we are.
that's enough.

that's my point.


>want what they want in period. the thing is fake

you see you can't act like it don't matter ever heard of Michael Jackson?

remember he fought for equality in that world because the powers that be said that R&B wasn't enough.

as usual you is wrong, because "VIBE" was a minor league Rolling stone and they still ended up catering to a R&B Cross over act that while still R&B was cross over.

you saw R.kelly, Mary J Blige, Usher, 2Pac, D'angelo, TLC, Jodeci on there covers.

ain't like Joe Public, Joe, Joi,Sammie, Me Phi Me, Blaque,After 7 were getting a vibe cover.

i wouldn't waste my time on no "Vibe" Podcast snob garbage because them cats can't tell me nothing I don't already know, especially since i lived it and experienced Vibe during its prime and peak and the marketing of it 20 years back with Treach on the cover who by the way never blew up solo or as a Actor. matter of fact "Jason's lyric" was suppose to be his time to shine and it didn't happen.

truth is alot of Black Superstar or successful acts want White appreciation than to accept Black Love from within and if you grew up on late 70's to late 80's to early 90's cross over R&B pop acts then you know what I;m talking about.


it ain't like Vibe put Frankie Beverly and Maze on the cover either FYI or the Eric Gayle band.

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Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

>then no rappers would be in ya dig?

rappers whose music emulates the 'spirit' of RR get in. several have been inducted already.

of the 3 acts you've listed, only Rick's music embodies that spirit. so he has the best shot, i think.

>REM is in.

that's a Rock band, killer.

>i mean if Bob Dylan gets in

if you know Dylan then you know why he's in. if you don't know then you don't know what you're talking about.

before Lionel Richie
>then i know something is wrong and dylan was a folk artist.

not just.

>Whitney should be their as well.

nope. huge act, of course, and a legend. but not right for the *RR*HOF.

Mariah Carey probably ain't getting in either.

fuck you.

if a cornball like Bob dylan gets in or REM.

its pop music turkey. you let these white folks throw slogans on and stick.

aside from about 6 songs, i never got or felt no constipated sounding bob dylan. never got it. always felt he was overrated and sounded like he needed x lax for his singing straining problem

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fuck you.

Celine Dion is not in.

Bette Midler is not in.

Barry Manilow is not in (I don't think).

Linda Ronstadt might get in this yr.

Long list of big time acts who don't fit in the RRHOF for reasons unrelated to race. And others who probably DO belong but aren't in bc of that longstanding Rockist/Cool-Kids bias (ask Kiss and Bon Jovi about it).

Plus, there are a fair number of legendary black performers and executives already inducted since the Hall's inception.

This dog won't hunt, player. Meaning, they're not overlooking the acts you listed bc they're black. Those acts aren't in for other reasons. Lionel and Whitney aren't in bc they made milquetoast music and aren't and weren't cool. Rick is not in bc his impact ain't big enough and his music probably ain't up to the standard the Hall wants. Maybe. Of the 3 I think he has the best shot at getting in bc he worked that rebel image and he has some actual Rock in his background. But I don't see it for the other 2, and I'm fans of theirs. It's fine with me if they don't get in bc I don't think either act really belongs in the Hall. But if they get in I won't be mad, though I will question the RR part of the HOF if those acts get in. Lol

fuck you.

in either detroit or memphis. but not ATL or chicago.

Go Smack yourself and then apologize to your hand for looking stupid - Case_One

http://i54.tinypic.com/nxros2.jpg

fuck you.

he dominated things and in different styles as well.

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fuck you.

he in. time for more black acts to get in

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fuck you.

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nm

without ever acknowledging us/

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while others are free of that shit you still soap boxin...you want their validation so bad for some reason

>without ever acknowledging us/

and here you come in here trying to blur thangs because you need to scratch a itch. i voice my take on something if you don't like it then create your own thread,opps i forgot you never do because most of them go Wood.

ole Lemon lime Head Dr Seuss prune juice dranking jive turkey.

we read the same stuff stop fronting

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

Which I tell people not to worry about because, "strictly rock" wise, you have a few more years here (maybe till the '94/'95 class) where they're gonna run out of flashy "for ratings" people deserving of being in the HoF. And that'll create a time to be able and pick up some of those who've been over looked. I mean, it's already starting to happen. The requirement is 25 years from your first release, and most of this years nominees are 30+ years old.

_
Yo! That’s My Jawn: The Podcast - Available Now!
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First of all, thanks for this post Maxxx. In regards to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, the term "Rock and Roll" is not restricted to the genre of rock music. It encompasses all genres of popular music within the rock era. I'm not understanding why some folks are in here talking about "so and so is not in because they're not rock." Below is a short representation of MANY black artists who are already in the Hall Of Fame whose work is definitely not classified as "rock":

The Impressions
Al Green
Gladys Knight & The Pips
The Staple Singers
The Dells
The O'Jays
Donna Summer

There's a whole lot more I want to say on the matter but I gotta run.

something rugged and left of center about their sound.
in other words, i could see r. kelly getting in before i could see
Lionel Ritchie getting there.


>The Impressions
>Al Green
>Gladys Knight & The Pips
>The Staple Singers
>The Dells
>The O'Jays
>Donna Summer
>
>There's a whole lot more I want to say on the matter but I
>gotta run.

read what i actually said and reply to that.

fuck you.

Miles Davis is in the Hall. and alot of that acknowledges "Kind of Blue"

Point being they put in who they want to and they ain't really got any real criteria.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

not to mention the fact that miles davis' persona is just cool.
so yeah, it makes sense that he would be in.


i don't even know if stevie would be in had he not toured with the stones
and gotten himself exposed to the rock crowd.

that's when the rock fans got on board with Stevie.
notice all the rock fans jumped ship in the 80s, when he stopped playing
clavinet lines that could be ripped on electric guitar.


>Miles Davis is in the Hall. and alot of that acknowledges
>"Kind of Blue"
>
>Point being they put in who they want to and they ain't really
>got any real criteria.
>
>

There are several mid-70's rock songs patterned after his music; Zeppelin's "Trampled underfoot" a good example. This Deep Purple-song comes to mind as well:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZd1NFXyH5c Furthermore Stevie got tons ofm props from Rolling Stone and other rock-mags in that era and was viewed as one of the most interesting, "cutting edge"-artists around.

Anyway, you and Sowhat are right about everything said in ths thread and it has nothing to do with impact or talent or whatever:artists like Whitney Houston and Lionel Ritchie are viewed in a different context and you might as well ask why Tom Jones, Barry Manilow, Liza Minelli, Barbra Streisand, Celine Dion etc. aren't in the rock'n'roll Hall of fame which Sowhat even stated; it's not too difficult to get this really.

Rick James on the other hand fit better but by the time he came around, there had been a quite big divorce musically and the balkanization of popular music that started in the early 70's was even more pronounced. I wonder what chance Depeche Mode or Spandau Ballet have to get in the rock'n'roll hall of fame not to mention all the successful hair-metal acts from the same era not named Guns'n'roses; acts who played actual *rock*-era and context needs to be put into consideration...

and his 60's fusion albums which channeled alot of what was happening.

point being though he was a Jazz artist and going by the logic thrown around in here, he wouldn't get in either desite his versatility and his coolness.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

Jerry Garcia in Grateful Dead appropriated his modal style of soloing long before "Bitches Brew". Santana=same thing. In fact, the modal style of improvising in jazz was the basis for the jams in rock during the psychedelic era even if Coltrane was a big influence too, arguably bigger. Still, combine this with the jazz-rock thing and Miles is a guy who impacted rock of its era in a major way.

More importantly, it was an era of rock that is considered "good"; Kiss impacted the sound and face of rock in the 80's in a major way but they are still not in (maybe this year; I hope so) and that's because that era/style is not held in high regards today by the rock-establishment; actually, it never was...

It's the same with Lionel and Whitney and their impact and era and since they aren't even related to rock, the chance of them getting in is even smaller...

"Someday My Prince will come" and Human Nature years later which are standard pop songs.

also that has nothing to do with Lionel Richie and Whitney Houston not getting in, they are facing a brand of politics and not getting just due period.

truth is Barry Manilow, Streisand, Celine Dion all belong in as well.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

against the artists you listed b/c they're black.

if the Hall was in the business of ignoring black acts that would mean there's SOME real criteria, right?

>Point being they put in who they want to and they ain't really
>got any real criteria.

no, i think you just want the Hall to be something it's not. at least not yet. if the Hall has changed its mind about Disco, to a certain degree, it could change its mind about Pop acts who make MOR, bland records and who court images and brands that are decidedly un-cool and they'll open up and induct acts like Manilow and Streisand. it could happen. the Hall could eat itself. keep hoping, hombre.

fuck you.

nothing else and nothing more. they put whom they want and when. as for Black acts only a select few are getting in. they are jive

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

Sorry bro if I misunderstood your earlier post. I read post #8 where you said "b/c they didn't make Rock music and the music they made didn't have any of that Rock & Roll spirit in it. no rebellion" and I immediately thought 'Donna Summer is in she doesn't embody any of that' lol.

On a somewhat unrelated note, I'm kind of miffed that Janet hasn't made the ballot yet but Madonna got in the first year she was eligible. Yeah, Madonna is more iconic but I'd love to see Janet receive that honor as well. It's perplexing to see LL Cool J get added to the ballot before Ms. Jackson, but I digress.

you already know the deal and we are talking probably another 5-10 years before that hate will start to somewhat wear off.

Janet should be in like 5 years back, however the hate is strong man. you already know the deal and Janet doesn't even seem to care on the real.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

While it took a while, Hip-Hop acts like Run DMC, Public Enemy, NWA and, yes, LL cool J generated an interest from the rock-establishment in way that acts like Janet didn't come close to. Madonna is a different issue because she was highly controversial and discussed and much bigger than pop; it wasn't just the music with her...

Overall, the 80's as a whole is somewhat problematic.

Acts like U2, the Police and REM? Sure, that's the type of stuff the traditional rock establishment ate up with a spoon.

Prince? Sure, while nomially not a rock act, he was viewed as one of, if not *the*, most interesting acts of the era and his albums were frequently placed high in record of the year-polls in the media we are referring to here...

Guns'n'Roses? Sure, they were the *one* act from the kind of hair-metal scene that wasn't viewed as a joke and actually managed to cross over outsdide of the (big) core-audience...

Some Hip-Hop acts? As I said, they managed to generate excitement in the crowd we are referring to even if the merits of the music was controversial (not a minus:see also Ramones or Sex Pistols in the previous decade)

HOWEVER:

british hair-cut acts like Tears for fears, Ultravox, Depeche Mode etc. Existed outside of that establishment; doubtful if they get in in many years...

Hair-metal/butt-rock. While nominally rock, the rock establishment didn't like those acts which explains why not even Def Leppard is in yet or why Kiss-who essentially set up the scene in the previous decade (Van Halen too of course but they were discovered and inspired by Kiss and actually managed to get in due to more general "rock-cred") isn't in even if they may.

The 80's underground rock-acts from the punk/indie/hardcore-movemements (think Replacements, Husker Du, Pixies, Sonic Youth etc.). While those acts actually got props from the rock-establishment, they were too insignificant and "culturally" irrelevant to have a chance to get in before literally dozens of acts in the 60's and 70's. Actually, Nirvana is the only band from that cultural milieu that feels like an obvious inclusion and the other ones-when/if they get in-will do so for "influence"-reasons (think Stooges, elvet Underground etc. for earlier examples)

R&B and R&B crossovers from the same era. With very few exceptions (see Prince and obviously MJ who was just TOO huge to ignore even if he had 70's cred as well), this particular era is just not highly rated from this establshment the way R&B from the 60's and 70's is; Whitney and Lionel have a very small chance of getting in for a while.

Basically, of *course* there is bias and politics involved but don't act as if the rock'n'roll hall of fame hasn't inducted lots of doo-wop and R&B/early rock'n'roll from the 50's and 60's.

Basically, if you have a general grasp of the tastes of Dave Marsh, Greil Marcus and that whole Jann Wenner/Rolling Stone era and their biases and tastes, none of this should come as a surprise.

Shit, Dave Marsh has even explicitly stated that he will do his best to make sure that Kiss *never* gets in, this in spite of them being one of the biggest rock-bands of its era, a band who can still sell out arenas and who attract young fans to this very day with their image and songs...

it was the system and Radio divide for Black Artists getting played on White Pop Stations.

and that argument against Lionel Richie is shot because he covered a wide range of styles and the Commodores were a funk band, so again using the logic he should get in.

Janet Jackson had impact period. you can't ignore what she did for music and she was very important to female Dance based acts.

she had two cultural impact Iconic albums in Control and Rhythm Nation.

and I bet you cash money Beyonce will get in the Hall. i bet you your passport on that one.

the Hall treats acts like studio 54 use to treat folks waiting in line and if they wanted you in, you got in and if not you went elsewhere.

bottom line if you made an impact then it counts one way or the other.

if the Hall had Cred then War would have gotten in the hall way before the Beastie Boys.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

>it was the system and Radio divide for Black Artists getting
>played on White Pop Stations.

But maxxx, *white* artists that got play on pop-stations and had hits out their asses aren't in the hof yet. Is Duran Duran there? They were inescapable for several years in like 82-85. Tears for fears? Eurythmics? Again, context and era...
>
>and that argument against Lionel Richie is shot because he
>covered a wide range of styles and the Commodores were a funk
>band, so again using the logic he should get in.

He would get in with the Commodores, NOT on the basis of "Hello", "All night long" or "Say you, say me"; songs that-fair or not-are viewed as schmaltz regardless of how big they were. the Commodores meanwhile are just not *that* well-known outside of R&B circles and the jury in the R&R hof is primarily not R&B experts. They know-and love-Aretha and Otis and Stevie and Marvin and Al Green and so on; Commodores might as well be the Ohio Players...
>
>Janet Jackson had impact period. you can't ignore what she
>did for music and she was very important to female Dance
>based acts.

I don't know many things this establishment care less about than female dance-acts. If anything, they are viewed as disposable, producer-driven, here-today, gone-tomorrow acts. Again, Madonna is the big exception because she was just too HUGE of an icon to be ignored. Janet never was on that level and I must admit the whole Madonna vs. Janet-thing OKP often get into is perplexing to me (and believe me, Janet was hitting in swden too); Madonna was beaten only by MJ in terms of being the quintessential 80's icon.
>
>she had two cultural impact Iconic albums in Control and
>Rhythm Nation.

Not sure those albums matter too much to Dave Marsh and his ilk
>
>and I bet you cash money Beyonce will get in the Hall. i bet
>you your passport on that one.

Maybe, again, that will be based on context and era and the lack of competitors. Anyway, it will take time...
>
>the Hall treats acts like studio 54 use to treat folks
>waiting in line and if they wanted you in, you got in and if
>not you went elsewhere.
>
>bottom line if you made an impact then it counts one way or
>the other.

Some impact is rated higher than other; this is the R&R hall of fame, not the pop hall of fame...
>
>if the Hall had Cred then War would have gotten in the hall
>way before the Beastie Boys.

Again, Beastie Boys were part of a number of Hip-Hop acts that crossed over at a time when the music was controversial and fresh and regarded as revolutionary. War does not have that status; in fact, I suspect many rock-fans view them more as the band Eric Burdon got into after the Animals as opposed to a strong band in theiir own right.

War was dope though but there are several acts from that era I'd personally put in before them: the Meters is one but also (early) Kool &the Gang and Ohio Players. Possibly Commodores as well...

War was picked last year for a induction and it didn't happen.

Donna Summer's is in and she had backlash over here.

point is they elect who they want period. some acts they can't ignore and some they make wait.

duran, duran was good, however not quite Hall worthy. and I like duran, duran, however they weren't that kind of act.

same with tears for fears whom i dig however not Hall worthy IMO.


if Madonna is in then Janet Jackson belongs in and acts of her elk.

because Madonna had to have respect from dance and the R&B world in addtion to her pop base to reach her heights period.

truth is there shouldn't be a Hall because its just a game and they hold the deck of cards and try to marginalize whom they don't want in.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

>War was picked last year for a induction and it didn't
>happen.



War will eventually get in because of the Eric Burden connection...


>Donna Summer's is in and she had backlash over here.


The Hall shitted on disco music...Donna was a casualty in that rock critic hate....It took her death to get her in, which was sad and unreasonable...

>point is they elect who they want period. some acts they can't
>ignore and some they make wait.

YES!!!...YOU finally get it...That's the point..It just so happens that they (old school rock critics) have their styles, eras and genre of music they like....

They love Curtis Mayfield....They love the Impressions....They love Motown...They love Stax...They love P-Funk, EW&F...

But they don't love Lionel (his 80s career overshadowed his Commodores era)...They don't love Barry Manilow...

It's that snobby, rock critic thing...As they die off u will see more acts that didn't fit that "serious" mode get in...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

its a white mans rule again basically because common sense says Lionel Richie is a HOF as is Barry Manilow and Stresiand as is Johnny Mathis.

no matter what nobody says its White Men making the stupid rules and we all know what time it is.

they stole the term Rock and Roll from Black folks and then tell you who can get in and who can't??

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

She was the icon of the disco-era and while the rock-establishment hated disco and still do to a certain extent, it was just too much of an era-defining style to be ignored. That's why I hope Chic gets in because unlike Donna, they were a *band* just like any rock-band you can mention and they were self-contained, produced their own shit, had an immediately recognizable style, were massively influential etc. What works against them is that what they inspired might not be too highly rated but still, Nile's production-work with Bowie and Madonna should give some extra clout.

(female) dance-pop from the 80's hasn't reached disco-level status in terms of being viewed as era-defining yet and probably never will but if it does, then, yes, Janet will be the first pick since Madonna is already in-I doubt Lisa Lisa or Shannon has much of a chance...

^^^^^^All this....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

from the Rockists to Disco as a whole. and there was heavy campaigning for yrs for Disco to get some recognition.

i don't see that working out for any of the acts maxxx listed. Rick has the best shot, imo.

fuck you.

USA was the only country they weren't massive and I've heard several excuses for why (mainly that they refused to do the hard touring shit you needed to break USA). However, I suspect they were just too "euro" style-wise, just like Boney M or Baccara. Still, they managed some hits in the US as well. Overall, I suspect their inclusion might not just be a disco thing but possibly more due to their status literally everywhere in the world then.

They have actually sold more albums than most classic rock acts, just saying...

and will probably never make it.

i think the Hall wanted to nod @ Disco and picked Abba in part b/c they sold so many records. but i doubt the record sales alone would've gotten them in.

fuck you.

SOme of their songs-like "Dancing Queen" and "Gimme Gimme"-qualifies but overall, they were more of a pure pop-act IMO. Maybe they are viewed as a disco-act in the US; here, they definitely ain't...

fuck you.

Nobody said any of this^^^^^^