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Subject: "It never occurred to me that MJ lip synced the Motown 25 performance" Previous topic | Next topic
imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Sat Sep-28-13 09:21 PM

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"It never occurred to me that MJ lip synced the Motown 25 performance"


  

          


█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
he get's a pass... even the King Of Pop has to take a day off
Sep 28th 2013
1
i think the J5 reunion was sung live.
Sep 28th 2013
2
yes sir
Sep 28th 2013
4
not exactly
Sep 29th 2013
9
really? thought that was known even back then
Sep 28th 2013
3
it really just never occurred to me
Sep 29th 2013
12
That performance was kinda impromptu
Sep 28th 2013
5
MJ wanted to purposely perform a non Motown song on the show
Sep 29th 2013
6
      truth
Sep 29th 2013
8
how old is you?
Sep 29th 2013
7
RE: how old is you?
Sep 29th 2013
10
first thing, Murph i wasn't addressing you, second
Sep 29th 2013
11
      Yeah.......
Sep 30th 2013
13
      lol
Sep 30th 2013
14
shut the fuck up dumbass
Sep 30th 2013
56
1988 grammies performance too.
Sep 30th 2013
15
spent the weekend watching various live clips throughout the years
Sep 30th 2013
17
Their producer Frank Farian revealed they didnt sing on the records.
Sep 30th 2013
18
Right... but why at that point?
Sep 30th 2013
19
Them being caught lipsynching had nothing to do
Sep 30th 2013
21
I remember there was a debacle surrounding Technotronic as well...
Sep 30th 2013
23
nuh-uh... C+C and Black Box were sung by Martha Wash.
Sep 30th 2013
26
      Ride on time was from Love sensation (Holloway)...
Sep 30th 2013
28
      LOL I don't remember that song at all
Sep 30th 2013
29
           those two are the only Black Box songs I really remember
Sep 30th 2013
31
           Weird
Sep 30th 2013
33
                It was a massive hit in the clubs. I remember 21-22 hearing "Ride.
Sep 30th 2013
52
      yeah, that post had me confused, I also don't really remember
Sep 30th 2013
30
           I remember that...
Sep 30th 2013
34
how far apart were the events?
Sep 30th 2013
24
I think those events were at least a year apart.
Sep 30th 2013
27
Side note: I knew a kid who's mom filed a class action lawsuit...
Oct 01st 2013
93
      lol
Oct 02nd 2013
102
RE: Right... but why at that point?
Sep 30th 2013
43
      RE: Right... but why at that point?
Oct 01st 2013
62
Mili Vanelli made Lip Synching something new
Sep 30th 2013
51
the plea-cop of people needing to lip sync because of how much
Sep 30th 2013
20
RE: the plea-cop of people needing to lip sync because of how much
Sep 30th 2013
22
late in Mike's career he lip synced a lot out of necessity....and
Sep 30th 2013
25
i don't understand this "lowering the bar" argument.
Sep 30th 2013
37
      I'm not sure we should be chalking lip sycning up to a "technology evolu...
Sep 30th 2013
38
           i think there is a lot going on here.
Sep 30th 2013
40
James brown,marvin gaye, stevie wonder,aretha franklin,etc.
Sep 30th 2013
36
      lip syncing shouldn't be a proud influence of Mike's on those who follow...
Sep 30th 2013
39
           they don't lip sync because MJ lip synced.
Sep 30th 2013
41
           "spectacle"...um...so.... there was no "spectacle" involved in
Sep 30th 2013
45
                you misunderstood me.
Sep 30th 2013
46
                     oh..I got ya now...
Sep 30th 2013
47
                          yeah.
Sep 30th 2013
49
                          when he giged with his Brothers that never left, however Solo
Sep 30th 2013
54
           Billie Jean was a Classic song and then he had a ROutine
Sep 30th 2013
53
88 grammys part sinatra and gene kelly and part 1,part 2 all
Sep 30th 2013
35
yea, i wasn't alive when this performance happened, but when
Sep 30th 2013
16
Iconic performance that's NOT lip synced >>> Iconic lip sync....
Sep 30th 2013
32
eh... replies #40 and 41
Sep 30th 2013
42
RE: Iconic performance that's NOT lip synced >>> Iconic lip sync....
Sep 30th 2013
44
Yeah Mike gets a pass
Sep 30th 2013
48
Common sense says that the Performance on Motown 25
Sep 30th 2013
55
Michael Jackson was a legend waaaaaaay before motown 25...
Oct 01st 2013
58
      Motown 25 made him a legendary adult act.
Oct 01st 2013
59
      RE: Motown 25 made him a legendary adult act.
Oct 01st 2013
60
           naw, it was Thriller and all that came w/it.
Oct 01st 2013
61
           RE: naw, it was Thriller and all that came w/it.
Oct 01st 2013
64
           this what i've always wondered about OTW. . .
Oct 01st 2013
65
           let's really get into this....
Oct 01st 2013
69
                i feel you on that.
Oct 01st 2013
73
                     RE: i feel you on that.
Oct 01st 2013
75
                          Thriller made him MJ the artist Genius period
Oct 01st 2013
76
           'us' = you and the ppl you know. okay.
Oct 01st 2013
67
                OTW may have made him a legend to (black) folks that grew up the J5.
Oct 01st 2013
72
                     naw, i don't think it did.
Oct 01st 2013
74
                     RE: OTW may have made him a legend to (black) folks that grew up the J5.
Oct 01st 2013
77
                          who else was a legend back then?
Oct 01st 2013
79
                          RE: who else was a legend back then?
Oct 01st 2013
84
                          RE: who else was a legend back then?
Oct 01st 2013
88
                          Diana Ross was a Legend back then as Aretha Franklin
Oct 01st 2013
86
                          how as "thriller" selling before he moonwalked?
Oct 01st 2013
80
                               RE: how was Thriller selling before he moonwalked?
Oct 01st 2013
82
                               thriller would sell however Motown 25 and Berry Gordy's words
Oct 01st 2013
83
           hol the fuck up.... frampton ain't a legend?!!!
Oct 01st 2013
66
                stay focused.
Oct 01st 2013
68
                http://bit.ly/1fGyQIT
Oct 01st 2013
70
                     he feels like we feel.
Oct 01st 2013
71
                Frampton is a very talented Guitar player, however
Oct 01st 2013
85
                No, Peter Frampton is not a legend.
Oct 02nd 2013
100
           "thriller" was the third time MJ did the impossible.
Oct 01st 2013
63
      not on the Pop side of town, because if you ever
Oct 01st 2013
78
           Michael's producers should be
Oct 01st 2013
87
                Q needed an MJ to update his thing in a real way
Oct 01st 2013
89
                Claudette was an infant when HN was recorded. Lol
Oct 01st 2013
92
                     RE: Claudette was an infant when HN was recorded. Lol
Oct 01st 2013
94
                          i'm looking at the original record sleeve w/the credits right now.
Oct 01st 2013
95
                               RE: i'm looking at the original record sleeve w/the credits right now.
Oct 02nd 2013
97
                                    ah ha!
Oct 02nd 2013
101
damn. you tied yourself in a knot there.
Oct 01st 2013
57
Let us not forget ...Mikes Motown performance set the stage for
Sep 30th 2013
50
30 dollar tickets in 1984 was making folks heated
Oct 01st 2013
81
mike is about the only person that gets a lip synching pass
Oct 01st 2013
90
was Janet 1 of the 1st to lip-synch to newly-recorded vocals?
Oct 01st 2013
91
      RE: was Janet 1 of the 1st to lip-synch to newly-recorded vocals?
Oct 02nd 2013
96
thoughts
Oct 02nd 2013
98
RE: thoughts
Oct 02nd 2013
99
the man made classic albums, songs and tours
Oct 02nd 2013
104
Bobby Brown took it a step further and lip synced to an improvisation
Oct 02nd 2013
103

kysersozey
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Sat Sep-28-13 09:25 PM

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1. "he get's a pass... even the King Of Pop has to take a day off "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

*
*
*

  

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Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
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Sat Sep-28-13 09:47 PM

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2. "i think the J5 reunion was sung live. "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

but yeah, that didn't notice that for a while either.

  

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stattic
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Sat Sep-28-13 09:59 PM

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4. "yes sir"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

  

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jaywonder
Member since Jun 05th 2007
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Sun Sep-29-13 03:01 AM

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9. "not exactly"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

While Michael and Jermaine's lead vocals were live, the other brothers' background vocals were pre-recorded, as was Debarge's background vocals (There's short footage if you can find it online of Smokey and others in a recording studio recording the J5's background vocals for I Want You Back)

I think other groups' had some pre-recorded vocals also


http://boundless-expression.tumblr.com/

http://themichaeljacksonarchives.tumblr.com/

  

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Bombastic
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Sat Sep-28-13 09:51 PM

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3. "really? thought that was known even back then"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I was a bit too young to know when it happened but by the time I was old enough it seemed to be fairly common knowledge.

https://soundcloud.com/matt-koelling-666011203

www.somethinginthewudder.com

https://twitter.com/nostrabombus

https://www.facebook.com/matt.koelling.96

https://www.instagram.com/something_in_the_wudder/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-koelling-438a80

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Sun Sep-29-13 08:34 PM

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12. "it really just never occurred to me"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

i don't be going back on shit like that too much. I mean it's a classic performance for the moonwalk. And so often that's all you ever see. Showing the whole clip to the kids for the first time this weekend is how i took notice. And I did that after seeing another clip on youtube and thinking why am i showing them him doing a lip sync performance of the original performance, only to find out the original was a lip sync performance.

The idea of Mike lip syncing before the 90's to that point was an absurdity, and yet there he was. My whole childhood was in the balance. Dare I do the search that could destroy all myths. Took me a couple of hours to gather the strength, but I finally sought out the Bad tour footage. Cause if he lip synched his way through that, I really would have felt duped cause that shit literally shaped my impression of him. Thankfully hew as doing 90:10 real singing to backing vocals back then. I'm guessing it was around the 90's that he went so heavy with it.

Shit made me think for real though, ain't no way MJ would have been able to hold up vocally for them 50 dates dancing and all at the same time.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Sat Sep-28-13 10:31 PM

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5. "That performance was kinda impromptu"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

The producers fought against it till the last minute because it didnt conform to the show's theme of honoring Motown classics, but Mike said that if they didn't let him do it, he wouldn't do the show... and they needed him to inject some youth energy into the proceedings because Motown's current acts were a bit lackluster.

So there was not a lot of rehearsal, and the band didn't know the song either.

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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mistermaxxx08
Member since Dec 31st 2010
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Sun Sep-29-13 12:31 AM

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6. "MJ wanted to purposely perform a non Motown song on the show"
In response to Reply # 5


          

and also he wanted the editing rights to his performance and he got both and also gave a Performance which turned the man into a Legend over night it seemed.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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howardlloyd
Member since Jan 18th 2007
2729 posts
Sun Sep-29-13 01:45 AM

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8. "truth"
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

>and also gave a Performance which turned the man
>into a Legend over night it seemed.

http://howardlloyd.bandcamp.com

  

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mistermaxxx08
Member since Dec 31st 2010
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Sun Sep-29-13 12:32 AM

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7. "how old is you?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

dude that is 30 years back. and i hope this ain't a mocking MJ thread or the MJ Police will get you for this

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
23113 posts
Sun Sep-29-13 10:55 AM

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10. "RE: how old is you?"
In response to Reply # 7


          

>dude that is 30 years back. and i hope this ain't a mocking
>MJ thread or the MJ Police will get you for this


Man..cut it out Maxx...The dude just made a regular post....Mike ain't God...Let that man cook...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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mistermaxxx08
Member since Dec 31st 2010
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Sun Sep-29-13 02:21 PM

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11. "first thing, Murph i wasn't addressing you, second"
In response to Reply # 10


          

its a Iconic Performance and who ain't seen that performance again?

and if you ever start in on me again I'll come at you, ya dig? keep the peace and we won't have no static

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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princeguy
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13. "Yeah......."
In response to Reply # 11


          

A lot of folks thought he was singing live too.

I didn't realize it until I went back to revisit it when Youtube became popular.

When it happened, and for years afterwards, I always thought he performed it live.

It was obviously a Great performance though. Classic.


Princeguy reviews:

"No pretentiousness.

No pompous re-interpretations.

Sometimes, a movie is just a movie. You work hard for your money.

The decision is yours.

See and enjoy what YOU like."

  

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DonWonJusuton
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Mon Sep-30-13 10:02 AM

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14. "lol "
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

"and if you ever start in on me again I'll come at you, ya dig? keep the peace and we won't have no static" .. for some reason, this made me laugh and choke on my drink a bit haha.. you're a true internet treasure dude

  

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justin_scott
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Mon Sep-30-13 11:31 PM

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56. "shut the fuck up dumbass"
In response to Reply # 7


          

Your the worst type of fan

************************************************************

  

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shockzilla
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Mon Sep-30-13 10:04 AM

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15. "1988 grammies performance too."
In response to Reply # 0


          

he lip synced 'the way you make me feel' - but then sang the shit out of 'man in the mirror'.

it's an amazing performance.

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Mon Sep-30-13 10:13 AM

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17. "spent the weekend watching various live clips throughout the years"
In response to Reply # 15
Mon Sep-30-13 10:14 AM by imcvspl

  

          

he lipsync'd a lot. it always kinda makes sense in context, but at the same time... it's not so much a matter of thinking he couldn't sing them songs, but the idea that he was actually singing them songs while moving around the stage like that was part of the super humanness of him. This all makes it more strategized smoke and mirrors. But again seems more like a trend post 90's. I'm glad my show was before that because he was singing his ass off on that tour. His headset mic though... that's his tell. Cat will be grabbing on to that thing for life, to make you feel like he's really trying to sing into it... LOL!!

MAXXX I'm not trying to downplay MJ at all. Just calling it like I see it.

It's funny how the whole notion of lip syncing changed over time though. At one point I thought, what made Milli Vinilli getting caught seem so bad? I don't recall it being that the folk who were actually singing were back stage and we saw them? We just found out they weren't singing live. But in the press it was always connected to them not singing on the albums. How the fuck did that leap happen? Which makes me think, were they set up?

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Mon Sep-30-13 10:17 AM

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18. "Their producer Frank Farian revealed they didnt sing on the records."
In response to Reply # 17


  

          


>It's funny how the whole notion of lip syncing changed over
>time though. At one point I thought, what made Milli Vinilli
>getting caught seem so bad? I don't recall it being that the
>folk who were actually singing were back stage and we saw
>them? We just found out they weren't singing live. But in
>the press it was always connected to them not singing on the
>albums. How the fuck did that leap happen? Which makes me
>think, were they set up?

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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imcvspl
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Mon Sep-30-13 10:23 AM

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19. "Right... but why at that point?"
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

What was so revealing of lip syncing a tv performance, that made knowing they weren't singing on record something that had to be revealed at that point. Maybe my timing is off, but I remember it just being an immediate connection when there isn't one naturally there on hindsight reflection.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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21. "Them being caught lipsynching had nothing to do"
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

with their downfall.

I know a lot of people like to replay that clip of the DAT getting stuck on "Girl you know its-girl you know its-girl you know its-" and all that... but that was not their undoing. In fact, the tape was fixed, they came back out and finished their performance and the audience didn't give a shit.

It was later, when they were fighting with Farian over money and pressuring him to let them sing on the records that he just decided they were becoming more trouble than they were worth, so he pulled back the curtain and exposed them.

But really, it should not have been that big of a deal. In Europe (Germany in particular) they are very used to the idea of groups not singing on their records. Farian's first splash as a producer came in the 70s with the disco supergroup Boney M:

http://youtu.be/7peS5jw1nIU

Boney M had loads of hits worldwide for 5 or 6 years and it was fairly well known that apart from the vocals of lead singer Liz Mitchell, Farian himself sang all the vocal parts, including the female ones.

Silver Convention, Amanda Lear, etc... Europe was used to that shit and didn't care. The problem was that Milli Vanilli had gotten really big in America and had received an American Music Award and Americans are super-serious about shit like this (or at least, used to be) so everybody clutched their pearls and made a big scandal over it (and Black Box and C + C Music Factory too)

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
9766 posts
Mon Sep-30-13 11:10 AM

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23. "I remember there was a debacle surrounding Technotronic as well..."
In response to Reply # 21


          

They had some model who apparently didn't even know english pretending to do the rap in "Pump up the jam" when in reality it was some little tomboy looking chick doing the rap. C+C music factory and Black Box were more understandable to me because they used old, sampled Loleatta Holloway vocals for those hits.

But no, "noone" in europe cared, maybe they did ib england but the more "trashy" countries like Germany or Netherlands or Sweden (before we became hip) or Spain, people almost took it for granted that dance-pop songs were not REALLY sung by the artists on the covers/vdeos/etc.; I could never really understand the outrage.

Don't get me wrong, it was a *little* controversial. Here in sweden for example, the girl who did all the female singing on the Dr. Alban-hits as well as tons of other euro-dance songs was this overweight, white background-singer but she was never in the videos; I remember her coming out and crying about it and people thinking it was unfair but it sure as hell never ended any careers the way it did Milli anilli (or Technotronic or Black Box) in the US.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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26. "nuh-uh... C+C and Black Box were sung by Martha Wash."
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

>They had some model who apparently didn't even know english
>pretending to do the rap in "Pump up the jam" when in reality
>it was some little tomboy looking chick doing the rap. C+C
>music factory and Black Box were more understandable to me
>because they used old, sampled Loleatta Holloway vocals for
>those hits.

http://youtu.be/vUc2Sbt3QpE

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
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28. "Ride on time was from Love sensation (Holloway)..."
In response to Reply # 26


          

Your'e right about C+C music factory though. Apprently the other Black Box hits had Martha Walsh. Ride on time is the only one I still remember though...

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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29. "LOL I don't remember that song at all"
In response to Reply # 28
Mon Sep-30-13 11:35 AM by AFKAP_of_Darkness

  

          

About to look it up...

EDIT: Oh yes... Of course I remember this. But the one that stick in my memory more are "everybody Everybody" and "Strike It Up'

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Bombastic
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31. "those two are the only Black Box songs I really remember"
In response to Reply # 29


  

          

>About to look it up...
>
>EDIT: Oh yes... Of course I remember this. But the one that
>stick in my memory more are "everybody Everybody" and "Strike
>It Up'

https://soundcloud.com/matt-koelling-666011203

www.somethinginthewudder.com

https://twitter.com/nostrabombus

https://www.facebook.com/matt.koelling.96

https://www.instagram.com/something_in_the_wudder/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-koelling-438a80

  

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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
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Mon Sep-30-13 11:45 AM

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33. "Weird"
In response to Reply # 29


          

Ride on time was MASSIVE in europe, their other songs were not on that level really, at least not in sweden. Funny that ride on time apprently didn't even chart in USA. That song was alongside the Technotronic song played like 7-8 times/night at the school-discos at the time...

  

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Silky1
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52. "It was a massive hit in the clubs. I remember 21-22 hearing "Ride."
In response to Reply # 33


  

          

>Ride on time was MASSIVE in europe, their other songs were
>not on that level really, at least not in sweden. Funny that
>ride on time apprently didn't even chart in USA. That song was
>alongside the Technotronic song played like 7-8 times/night at
>the school-discos at the time...

......On Time", in the clubs constantly. We use to call it handbag house lol !!!

silk.later Reunion radio with Old P. & Silk http://reunionradio.blogspot.com/

"i'm talking about *Balls Deep*....In Love (c)Cleveland Jr.

He was cultivating a fine nigga farm (c)Goldmind.

R.I.P Jamie Hubley

  

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Bombastic
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30. "yeah, that post had me confused, I also don't really remember"
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

any controversy stateside on Technotronic because by the time it was here Ya Kid K was all over the place rapping that song (SNL, Arsenio, etc).

https://soundcloud.com/matt-koelling-666011203

www.somethinginthewudder.com

https://twitter.com/nostrabombus

https://www.facebook.com/matt.koelling.96

https://www.instagram.com/something_in_the_wudder/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-koelling-438a80

  

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Jakob Hellberg
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Mon Sep-30-13 11:46 AM

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34. "I remember that..."
In response to Reply # 30


          

It was on MTv news that the girl in the video was not singing and some controversy. I guess it didn't end their career though...

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Mon Sep-30-13 11:18 AM

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24. "how far apart were the events?"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

news cycle was infinitely slower back then , but i still want to remember it as being all within the same chain.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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27. "I think those events were at least a year apart."
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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mrhood75
Member since Dec 06th 2004
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93. "Side note: I knew a kid who's mom filed a class action lawsuit..."
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

...on behalf all Milli Vanilli fans against the group, their agents, and Arista Records. I went to elementary school with him, and his mother was a lawyer. I think it made national news at the time; they held a press conference and everything. I was like, um, why would you want to put yourself in the spotlight over that?

-----------------

www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

  

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woe.is.me.
Member since Aug 06th 2007
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102. "lol"
In response to Reply # 93


  

          

---
www.ikirejones.com
FW16: After Migration.

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Mon Sep-30-13 01:28 PM

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43. "RE: Right... but why at that point?"
In response to Reply # 19
Mon Sep-30-13 01:44 PM by murph71

          

Because Mike already had capital built up...We knew he could sing his ass off live even beyond all the lipsynching he started doing especially during parts of the Bad tour and beyond...

With Milli Vanilli there was NO good will or a track record of singing live...In fact, that wasn't even them on their own records...lol...

Yet we know that's ALL MJ on Off The Wall, ect....

Which is why MJ got a major pass....And it's why he continued to get a pass even as the lipsynching became more frequent in the '90s and 00's....

Others who engaged in lipsynching didn't have the otherworldly talent of MJ...


And yet, I never gave MJ a pass for lipsynching ON TOUR....I understand the music specials...but in a concert setting? Nah...I always thought Mike was too good to go that Britney Spears route...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Nvncible1
Member since Jun 17th 2011
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Tue Oct-01-13 01:46 PM

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62. "RE: Right... but why at that point?"
In response to Reply # 43


  

          

MY MAJOR beef with him as a performer is that he wouldnt rerecord his vocals like janet did.

AT LEAST give us some new vocals as opposed to just playing a cd essentially.

he lost cool points with me. but I know he had serious vocal chord damage in 1992 and had to have surgery on it.

  

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mistermaxxx08
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Mon Sep-30-13 10:37 PM

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51. "Mili Vanelli made Lip Synching something new"
In response to Reply # 18


          

the concept of the voices matching the faces was ground breaking and also represented a certain point of time where that was in swing.

Clive Davis knew all about it and signed those checks.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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Warren Coolidge
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Mon Sep-30-13 10:44 AM

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20. "the plea-cop of people needing to lip sync because of how much"
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

it's not so much a matter of thinking
>he couldn't sing them songs, but the idea that he was actually
>singing them songs while moving around the stage like that was
>part of the super humanness of him.

a particular artist moved around or danced on stage was always a phoney argument to me.... an argument that became easier over time because people became further removed from a time when lip syncing was limited to appearances on weekly tv shows like soul train or bandstand....

I mean James Brown probably performed in a more strenuously physical manner than anyone ever....and would do it 2 or 3 shows in a day some times.... and would do it all the way live...

and that was pretty much the norm..

when the music became more sanitized...packaged.... lip syncing became more of a fall back viewed by some as a necessity....but really only because the bar was being lowered as to what the expectations and standards were for an artist to be considered great...

  

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princeguy
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Mon Sep-30-13 10:58 AM

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22. "RE: the plea-cop of people needing to lip sync because of how much"
In response to Reply # 20


          

I agree with this.

James Brown did his shit all the way live and he danced his ass off.

I believe....for the more modern era....they dance to hide the fact that they can't sing or play.

If the production is big enough, no one will expect you to actually sing or play live.

No one wants to acknowledge it.....but Michael lip synched a lot.


Princeguy reviews:

"No pretentiousness.

No pompous re-interpretations.

Sometimes, a movie is just a movie. You work hard for your money.

The decision is yours.

See and enjoy what YOU like."

  

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Warren Coolidge
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Mon Sep-30-13 11:23 AM

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25. "late in Mike's career he lip synced a lot out of necessity....and"
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

not because he actually couldn't sing..but because of the limitations with the nose prostetic.... if you remember the jackson family honors tv special Mike cupped his hand over his nose and mouth while holding the microphone when he sang.... the prosthetic he was using then may have moved or distorted while he sang and he didn't seem confident in it...

but later on...around the time of the This is it tour rehersals...whatever he was using was a better fit and he wasn't cupping his nose area at all while he sang live...

  

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Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
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Mon Sep-30-13 12:34 PM

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37. "i don't understand this "lowering the bar" argument. "
In response to Reply # 20


  

          

well, i get it...
but at the same time i don't.

back in the day, if you didn't sing live, there was no performance.
period.

ppl would lip sync for award shows and television performances
because it was cheaper and easier than putting mics on the instruments... but for the most part, ppl sung live out of necessity.


they asked diana ross how she felt about lip syncing,
because she doesn't do it.
she said that she doesn't begrudge the kids for doing it
because the technology is there, so why not use it?

ppl in her day used whatever technology was there to give the
best performance they could.




if somebody wanted to be really snobbish about it,
they would say that the great soul singers really ain't shit
because they are using microphones instead of singing over top of
the band like an opera singer would.


i mean...
it's whatever.



and for the record, i generally prefer it when artists sing live
instead of lip syncing.


>it's not so much a matter of thinking
>>he couldn't sing them songs, but the idea that he was
>actually
>>singing them songs while moving around the stage like that
>was
>>part of the super humanness of him.
>
>a particular artist moved around or danced on stage was always
>a phoney argument to me.... an argument that became easier
>over time because people became further removed from a time
>when lip syncing was limited to appearances on weekly tv shows
>like soul train or bandstand....
>
>I mean James Brown probably performed in a more strenuously
>physical manner than anyone ever....and would do it 2 or 3
>shows in a day some times.... and would do it all the way
>live...
>
>and that was pretty much the norm..
>
>when the music became more sanitized...packaged.... lip
>syncing became more of a fall back viewed by some as a
>necessity....but really only because the bar was being lowered
>as to what the expectations and standards were for an artist
>to be considered great...

  

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Warren Coolidge
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Mon Sep-30-13 01:03 PM

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38. "I'm not sure we should be chalking lip sycning up to a "technology evolu..."
In response to Reply # 37


  

          

>well, i get it...
>but at the same time i don't.
>
>back in the day, if you didn't sing live, there was no
>performance.
>period.
>
>ppl would lip sync for award shows and television performances
>
>because it was cheaper and easier than putting mics on the
>instruments... but for the most part, ppl sung live out of
>necessity.
>
>
>they asked diana ross how she felt about lip syncing,
>because she doesn't do it.
>she said that she doesn't begrudge the kids for doing it
>because the technology is there, so why not use it?
>
>ppl in her day used whatever technology was there to give the
>
>best performance they could.
>
>
>
>
>if somebody wanted to be really snobbish about it,
>they would say that the great soul singers really ain't shit
>because they are using microphones instead of singing over top
>of
>the band like an opera singer would.
>
>
>i mean...
>it's whatever.
>
>
>
>and for the record, i generally prefer it when artists sing
>live
>instead of lip syncing.


the technology has existed for years for people to use pre-recorded vocals and music during their performances... The fact that it's used more exclusively now....more often..and in venues which it wasn't really used before isn't a matter of technology being available now that was not previously available at all....

it wouldn't have been accepted by the public or the industry itself if any big artist who lip synced on Soul Train taped during the week....went to the Forum or the Universal ampatheater and lip synced their concert. Nobody would have accepted that.

Marvin Gaye could have used pre-recorded music and background vocals in his shows just as much as R.Kelly uses today. The technology existed for Marvin to do that.

But the music world that Marvin was in at that time would not only not have accepted it...doing so was completely outside of the norm....

the fact that it is the norm today....and even though the technology existed previously to do it..yet it wasn't the norm back then.... I view that as a lowering of the bar....

although a lot of this crosses genres...particularly with your more pop solo artists...but it hasn't impacted pop or rock type of artists or groups in the same manner it's impacted Black groups. "White" bands of even minimal noteriety perform songs live on award shows and tv shows..while "so-called" kings (lower case k intended) in R&B or "Black" music performances are full of lip syncing and pre-recorded music and vocals..

it's a cheapening of the music...a lowering the bar....

and it's been detrimental to the music and genre's overall...




>
>>it's not so much a matter of thinking
>>>he couldn't sing them songs, but the idea that he was
>>actually
>>>singing them songs while moving around the stage like that
>>was
>>>part of the super humanness of him.
>>
>>a particular artist moved around or danced on stage was
>always
>>a phoney argument to me.... an argument that became easier
>>over time because people became further removed from a time
>>when lip syncing was limited to appearances on weekly tv
>shows
>>like soul train or bandstand....
>>
>>I mean James Brown probably performed in a more strenuously
>>physical manner than anyone ever....and would do it 2 or 3
>>shows in a day some times.... and would do it all the way
>>live...
>>
>>and that was pretty much the norm..
>>
>>when the music became more sanitized...packaged.... lip
>>syncing became more of a fall back viewed by some as a
>>necessity....but really only because the bar was being
>lowered
>>as to what the expectations and standards were for an artist
>>to be considered great...
>

  

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Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
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Mon Sep-30-13 01:15 PM

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40. "i think there is a lot going on here. "
In response to Reply # 38
Mon Sep-30-13 01:16 PM by Joe Corn Mo

  

          

it has a lot to do with the decline of black bands.
the music snobs talked about this. when kids go to hip hop/ r&b shows now...
they want a "spectacle," but they don't neccesarily expect a "show" the way we are.

who is to blame for this?
probably MJ. because MJ performances became very much about spectacle,
and the people that watched him forgot he was also a master of putting on a show.

live singing, and live playing just isn't valued the way it was
with black bands in the past... or with white bands now.

i guess it started when the black bands started disassembling in the 80s.


i can't just blame one thing.
people copying the wrong parts of MJ is part of it.
the fact that an artist can now have a career without having to hack it live is another part of it.
bands not having to test their chops on the chitlin circuit is a part of it.
the fact that a kid that wants to get into music now instinctively starts to write rhymes or make beats is another part of it.

and all of that lead to kids not expecting it when they go to a show.




still, folks that value live performance in black music can still find it...
even if it's not the norm anymore.

JT does it. the roots does it.
hell, pharell does it... for whatever that's worth.


  

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mistermaxxx08
Member since Dec 31st 2010
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Mon Sep-30-13 12:01 PM

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36. "James brown,marvin gaye, stevie wonder,aretha franklin,etc."
In response to Reply # 17


          

all lip synched on shows in the 60's and 70's.

peep that old clip when Sam Cooke and Jackie Wilson switch roles and perform. nothing new under the sun.

all major acts have done this, however MJ made it look like gold and was too cool for school after motown 25

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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Warren Coolidge
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Mon Sep-30-13 01:08 PM

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39. "lip syncing shouldn't be a proud influence of Mike's on those who follow..."
In response to Reply # 36


  

          

>all lip synched on shows in the 60's and 70's.
>
>peep that old clip when Sam Cooke and Jackie Wilson switch
>roles and perform. nothing new under the sun.
>
>all major acts have done this, however MJ made it look like
>gold and was too cool for school after motown 25

think about it....What did James Brown's manner of performance give to a young Michael Jackson?? It gave him something to grow his artistry from.

raising a lip syncing performance to an iconic level in terms of it being an acceptable "performance" for a musical artist demonstrating their mastery is not a good thing at all..

Mike's motown 25 performance was iconic because of who Mike was...when it happened..and what it meant to popular culture.... It being looked at as an "excuse" for people like R.Kelly or Chris Brown to use so much pre-recorded music and vocals in their so-called live shows is misguided IMO...


  

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Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
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Mon Sep-30-13 01:18 PM

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41. "they don't lip sync because MJ lip synced. "
In response to Reply # 39


  

          


they are lip syncing because the focus of the show has become "the spectacle,"
as opposed to just ripping it on stage with nothing but a band and a mic.


>>all lip synched on shows in the 60's and 70's.
>>
>>peep that old clip when Sam Cooke and Jackie Wilson switch
>>roles and perform. nothing new under the sun.
>>
>>all major acts have done this, however MJ made it look like
>>gold and was too cool for school after motown 25
>
>think about it....What did James Brown's manner of performance
>give to a young Michael Jackson?? It gave him something to
>grow his artistry from.
>
>raising a lip syncing performance to an iconic level in terms
>of it being an acceptable "performance" for a musical artist
>demonstrating their mastery is not a good thing at all..
>
>Mike's motown 25 performance was iconic because of who Mike
>was...when it happened..and what it meant to popular
>culture.... It being looked at as an "excuse" for people like
>R.Kelly or Chris Brown to use so much pre-recorded music and
>vocals in their so-called live shows is misguided IMO...
>
>
>

  

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Warren Coolidge
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Mon Sep-30-13 01:44 PM

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45. ""spectacle"...um...so.... there was no "spectacle" involved in "
In response to Reply # 41


  

          

live performances with live singing and playing??

I would argue that a more "in the moment" "LIVE" performance lends itself to a more impactful spectacle than a lip sync performance..

it invovles MORE elements interplaying with each other..involves MORE individuals participating and contributing to a common action....

it's BIGGER...

also what makes something a spectacle is the artist themselves being involved....How iconic the particular artist is....

an artist who is either a musician or who plays with musicians and sings live is a BIGGER more accomplished artist than someone who depends more on pre-recorded stuff....

  

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Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
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Mon Sep-30-13 01:54 PM

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46. "you misunderstood me. "
In response to Reply # 45
Mon Sep-30-13 01:55 PM by Joe Corn Mo

  

          

Michael Jackson kept trying to top himself with special effects in stage shows.
at his prime, they were over the top to a point that bordered on self parody.

but Mike was a genius performer, so the over the top special effects weren't distracting.
and kids looked up to that.


so what did they copy?


the special effects.
just the special effects.
that's why ppl think kanye is great live b/c he has a shitload of lights behind him.

everybody copied the wrong thing.



  

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Warren Coolidge
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Mon Sep-30-13 02:20 PM

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47. "oh..I got ya now..."
In response to Reply # 46


  

          

>Michael Jackson kept trying to top himself with special
>effects in stage shows.
>at his prime, they were over the top to a point that bordered
>on self parody.
>
>but Mike was a genius performer, so the over the top special
>effects weren't distracting.
>and kids looked up to that.
>
>
>so what did they copy?
>
>
>the special effects.
>just the special effects.
>that's why ppl think kanye is great live b/c he has a shitload
>of lights behind him.
>
>everybody copied the wrong thing.


and I agree with you on that...

I don't really have much to criticize Mike about...but the one thing I wish he had done different...was the bigger he got..I just wish he would have kept that connection with being a group/band leader....and the importance of the music and musicians itself and themselves...rather than the spectacle..

I mean you can have both...bands and artists...both black and white had huge over the top shows that were often able to keep some grit..without sacrificing the live elements... Had he done that...those who view themselves as his heirs would be doing more of that.

  

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Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
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Mon Sep-30-13 02:34 PM

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49. "yeah. "
In response to Reply # 47


  

          


>I don't really have much to criticize Mike about...but the one
>thing I wish he had done different...was the bigger he got..I
>just wish he would have kept that connection with being a
>group/band leader....and the importance of the music and
>musicians itself and themselves...rather than the spectacle..
>

I also think hip hop had an impact as well.
the music snobs did an entire show about the demise of black bands.


even though this post is about lip syncing, it really comes down to young artists
having a different idea of what constitutes a great show.

a lot of the stuff i said here is taken from their podcast.
you should check it out.



>I mean you can have both...bands and artists...both black and
>white had huge over the top shows that were often able to keep
>some grit..without sacrificing the live elements... Had he
>done that...those who view themselves as his heirs would be
>doing more of that.
>

  

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mistermaxxx08
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54. "when he giged with his Brothers that never left, however Solo"
In response to Reply # 47


          

he went toward the technilogy and the latest changes and he didn't want to be that cat having the KFC bucket band on stage.

he more than handled his business on stage and knows all the cues and licks, its just that he became a larger than life artist and he was never going to be that Hungry struggling MJ again period.

you had folks paying big money for him to do certain things and perform a certain way and big money was always their and he was not going to be the cat you saw pre thriller era and that is a fact.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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mistermaxxx08
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53. "Billie Jean was a Classic song and then he had a ROutine"
In response to Reply # 39


          

which he did on Motown 25 was ground breaking and yet on the victory tour MJ did it all the way live and tore it up both ways so MJ showed he could do it both ways period.

bottom line MJ was Magic that night. the way he performed on that stage the world could have ended and alot of folks would have been moon walking in there graves behind that performance period/


R.kelly does perform live and hold his his own. Chris Brown is a better dancer than singer, however his fan base is cool with his choices period.

fans will roll with you regardless as long as you bring what they want period.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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mistermaxxx08
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35. "88 grammys part sinatra and gene kelly and part 1,part 2 all"
In response to Reply # 15


          

Ray charles with the choir. he tore it up.

MJ understood the moment and presentation. he could stand behind a curtain and have you going crazy, nobody else had that stage power imo

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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DonWonJusuton
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16. "yea, i wasn't alive when this performance happened, but when "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

i got it on dvd, i kept playing it trying to convince myself that it wasn't lip synced.. but i didn't even know there was a J5 set before this until a couple years back and watching that made me feel a lot better about things... great shit either way..

  

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Warren Coolidge
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32. "Iconic performance that's NOT lip synced >>> Iconic lip sync...."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

not to say that that the motown 25 performance wasn't Iconic..it was huge for music....popular culture....television...everything...

but just by it's nature....if we are talking about a musical artist...I have no problem putting Mike's performance at the top of a list based upon it's popular culture impact ...television performance and the like...


but if we are talking music...musical artists...at the end of the day Mike basiclly lip synced a hit song.... something that lots of people have done over the years....and the impact of MIke's performance is based more on the time and place it occurred..its' moment in history..as opposed to the actual act of lip syncing his hit song....

something performed live....at least with the vocals happening live just has more impact from a musical perspective to me...

it's almost like the greatness of Mike's performance put performing live and lip syncing on the same level moving foward...which isn't Mike's fault...but to me it's not a good thing that those things are looked at as being the same...

I don't have a disdain for lip syncing per se...as much as I have a disdain for the idea that it's an acceptable practice at times and in venues when traditionally it was not used as such...and becomes a cheap and inauthentic way to pass off a performance as being "live"...

  

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Joe Corn Mo
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42. "eh... replies #40 and 41"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

  

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murph71
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44. "RE: Iconic performance that's NOT lip synced >>> Iconic lip sync...."
In response to Reply # 32


          


>it's almost like the greatness of Mike's performance put
>performing live and lip syncing on the same level moving
>foward...which isn't Mike's fault...but to me it's not a good
>thing that those things are looked at as being the same...

Now I will agree with this^^^^^

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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princeguy
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48. "Yeah Mike gets a pass"
In response to Reply # 44


          

Some entertainers get a pass for lip syncing an entire concert.

The mic is used when they're talking and for some ad-lib

But everyone else...they suck if they lip sync.

Some people lip sync because THEY CAN'T SING.

American Idol contestants blow a lot of these recorded artists out of the water, by far.

Yet, we make fun of American Idol. Why? They blow LIVE.

Some recorded platinum sellers lip sync their entire performance in paid concert.

For me....if you lip sync on free tv, I don't really care. If i drop loot to come to a concert, and you lip sync, we got problems.






Princeguy reviews:

"No pretentiousness.

No pompous re-interpretations.

Sometimes, a movie is just a movie. You work hard for your money.

The decision is yours.

See and enjoy what YOU like."

  

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mistermaxxx08
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55. "Common sense says that the Performance on Motown 25"
In response to Reply # 32


          

made the Man a Legend period. classic Song and Classic performance period and folks were Moonwalk all on my block and talking about it all over town period/

i was blown away because the truth is that night I was looking forward to seeing RIck James first and foremost that night, however he refused to perform so when Marvin gaye did his thing on the piano which was smoking i was hyped, however the jacksons tore it up and MJ had that look that night and it was Magical and everything you want in a Pop Music Iconic moment.


i was eating some Chicken wings and Bones in the dark with my Granny and after MJ tore that stage up i had to put the bird down and start dancing.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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Warren Coolidge
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58. "Michael Jackson was a legend waaaaaaay before motown 25..."
In response to Reply # 55


  

          

his artistry and talent was already established..

I mean him doing cold sweat in their motown audition tape when he was a little boy is beyond what half of the rock and roll hall of famers ever did...

  

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SoWhat
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59. "Motown 25 made him a legendary adult act."
In response to Reply # 58


  

          

he'd previously been a legendary kid act.

fuck you.

  

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murph71
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60. "RE: Motown 25 made him a legendary adult act."
In response to Reply # 59


          



Actually, Off The Wall already did that...

Motown 25 helped do something entirely different....

It made MJ the biggest recording artist on the planet....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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SoWhat
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61. "naw, it was Thriller and all that came w/it."
In response to Reply # 60


  

          

OTW sold millions and made MJ a big time adult act. but i don't agree it made him a legend. selling millions alone doesn't make an act a legend. i mean, Peter Frampton sold millions - is he a legend?

fuck you.

  

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murph71
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64. "RE: naw, it was Thriller and all that came w/it."
In response to Reply # 61


          

>OTW sold millions and made MJ a big time adult act. but i
>don't agree it made him a legend. selling millions alone
>doesn't make an act a legend. i mean, Peter Frampton sold
>millions - is he a legend?


Nah...that combo of his J5 days and Off The Wall made him a legend...At least to US...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Joe Corn Mo
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65. "this what i've always wondered about OTW. . ."
In response to Reply # 64
Tue Oct-01-13 02:14 PM by Joe Corn Mo

  

          

"thriller" overshadowed OTW because it became a phenomenon.
but OTW was the biggest selling black album of all time when it came out.


but you can't sell THAT many copies to just black folks, i don't think.
i imagine that OTW must have had a lot of crossover success, too.

but i don't know many white people who's favorite MJ album is OTW.
meanwhile, most of the black folks that are my parents' age seem to think OTW is better than "thriller." (they are totally correct about this, btw.)


so maybe he was a legend for black folks,
but not the public at large (read as: white folks)?






but even with that being said,
OTW doesn't have any "moments."
there is no "beatles on ed sullivan show" moment for OTW.


"thriller" had that, though, with motown 25.
and i think to be a legend, there has to be something iconic
about what you did. something in the collective memory.

i don't think OTW has a moment like that, even among black folks.
so i don't know if he was a legend as an adult act, yet.
a star, but not a legend.



>Nah...that combo of his J5 days and Off The Wall made him a
>legend...At least to US...
>
>

  

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SoWhat
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69. "let's really get into this...."
In response to Reply # 65
Tue Oct-01-13 02:28 PM by SoWhat

  

          

i agree that OTW was a cross-over success in the late 70s.

and i've read that for a time it was the biggest selling R&B album ever.

which means that it had outsold R&B albums like Songs in the Key of Life and Gratitude. but by how much?

http://voices.yahoo.com/best-rb-albums-all-time-certified-sales-8905976.html?cat=33

OTW = 8x platinum per RIAA.

SITKOL = 10x platinum. yes, double album and all of that but the official sales figure is north of 10 million, while OTW's official number is between 8 and 10 million. for the purpose of this discussion, SITKOL has sold 10 million, b/c i'm sure the articles saying OTW is/was the best selling R&B album of all time for a time don't place an asterisk on SITKOL's sales.

ANYWAY, what i'm trying to say here i think is that MJ hadn't done anything w/the OTW sales that had never been done. that album being the best selling R&B album ever for a brief period didn't make MJ a legend.

fuck you.

  

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Joe Corn Mo
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73. "i feel you on that. "
In response to Reply # 69


  

          

but i think MJ's case may have been different,
because he was a child start that black folks "grew up with"
that had morphed into a young star that was relevant.

he was a veteran and he was hot at the same time.
this isn't unprecedented, but i think one of the things that made
stevie such a legend was that he a child star that made that transition.


i think there may be an argument that MJ was a legend to black folks
with OTW, and the sales don't necessarily tell the full story.

but again, i wasn't there.
i'm just going off of the way i heard my parents friends talk about MJ when i was little. they all seemed to have a special fondness for OTW.

was that fondness enough to say that black folks thought he was a LEGEND as an adult? i dunno.


i can your point and murph's.
i dunno.



>ANYWAY, what i'm trying to say here i think is that MJ hadn't
>done anything w/the OTW sales that had never been done. that
>album being the best selling R&B album ever for a brief period
>didn't make MJ a legend.

  

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SoWhat
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75. "RE: i feel you on that. "
In response to Reply # 73


  

          

>but i think MJ's case may have been different,
>because he was a child start that black folks "grew up with"
>that had morphed into a young star that was relevant.

...which may bias them.

>he was a veteran and he was hot at the same time.
>this isn't unprecedented

key point.

Thriller MJ accomplished unprecedented feats - that's part of what made him a legend.

>i think there may be an argument that MJ was a legend to black
>folks
>with OTW, and the sales don't necessarily tell the full story.
>
>
>but again, i wasn't there.
>i'm just going off of the way i heard my parents friends talk
>about MJ when i was little. they all seemed to have a special
>fondness for OTW.

all mine were dismissive of MJ's adult work until Thriller. and they weren't really into Thriller but did acknowledge it. 'they' = my mother and her siblings.

i hadn't heard of OTW until well after Thriller was out. i bought it myself b/c i wanted to hear 'Heartbreak Hotel' and didn't know the song wasn't on OTW (i thought it was 'Burn This Disco Out').

fuck you.

  

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mistermaxxx08
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76. "Thriller made him MJ the artist Genius period"
In response to Reply # 75


          

Off the wall was seen as a Black thing and he got called a very successful R&B artist, however thriller made it where he was acknowledged as a All Around Artist period and the border of segeration of music was broken down by him. he changed the game forever as to what and how far a Black Artist could go.

Billie Jean on Motown 25 made the whole world take notice and respect that kid into a Grown man and a Musical Legend period.


off the wall was loved and respected however in the pop world at large it was a Black thing and he didn't get the acknowledgement he wanted and he said as such.

without thriller and its success he would have had a Phil donahue career as to reaching those Oprah WInfrey's heights.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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SoWhat
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67. "'us' = you and the ppl you know. okay."
In response to Reply # 64


  

          

but to the world around you - MJ became a legendary adult w/Thriller. and that legend building w/that album started in earnest w/Motown 25.

fuck you.

  

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Joe Corn Mo
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72. "OTW may have made him a legend to (black) folks that grew up the J5."
In response to Reply # 67


  

          

i don't know that murph's opinion is really that much on the fringes.
he may have been a legend to a certain demographic.


but again, i don't know... because i wasn't there.
and i don't know that he was a legend as an adult yet because
as i said before, there was no "beatles on ed sullivan" moment
to make him an icon.

and i think you need a moment like that to make you a legend.


>but to the world around you - MJ became a legendary adult
>w/Thriller. and that legend building w/that album started in
>earnest w/Motown 25.
>

  

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SoWhat
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74. "naw, i don't think it did."
In response to Reply # 72


  

          

i don't think OTW made MJ a legend even w/Black folks. it made him very popular and pushed him into the adult entertainment arena and all of that, i'm sure. but if OTW made him a legend then i wonder who else was a legend back then. b/c i don't think that record put him in league w/acts like Ray Charles or Sam Cooke (i'm trying to think who was a legend back then).

fuck you.

  

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murph71
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77. "RE: OTW may have made him a legend to (black) folks that grew up the J5."
In response to Reply # 72


          




^^^^gets it....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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SoWhat
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79. "who else was a legend back then?"
In response to Reply # 77


  

          

fuck you.

  

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murph71
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84. "RE: who else was a legend back then?"
In response to Reply # 79


          



Too many to name....

You don't sell nearly 10 million copies of an Off The Wall and just be deemed as a successful black act....What MJ did with Off The Wall was almost unseen for music acts in any genre of music beyond say Stevie Wonder...And MJ sold more than Stevie....

Most black folks already viewed MJ as an American legend after Off The Wall...They were the same folks who watched the Jackson 5 cartoon...Now they were at the discos jamming to the hottest album on the planet....

What Thriller did was let Mars and the moon in on the MJ action....



GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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SoWhat
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88. "RE: who else was a legend back then?"
In response to Reply # 84
Tue Oct-01-13 04:07 PM by SoWhat

  

          

>
>
>Too many to name....
>
>You don't sell nearly 10 million copies of an Off The Wall and
>just be deemed as a successful black act....

sure. MJ was a cross-over act. like Stevie Wonder and many others before him.

What MJ did with
>Off The Wall was almost unseen for music acts in any genre of
>music beyond say Stevie Wonder...And MJ sold more than
>Stevie....

yeah, OTW outsold SITKOL to become the best selling R&B album of all time at the time. acts like Earth Wind & Fire had also crossed-over, of course. as had Donna Summer. and let's not forget Diana Ross. and Marvin Gaye. hell, Motown had created a roster of acts in the 60s largely designed to cross-over and many of them did successfully. OTW was released in the wake of all of that.

>Most black folks already viewed MJ as an American legend after
>Off The Wall...They were the same folks who watched the
>Jackson 5 cartoon...Now they were at the discos jamming to the
>hottest album on the planet....

'hottest album on the planet'...

was it?

i dunno about that.

it was a Disco record that was Pop too w/some R&B that was released at the tail end of the Disco craze. i've never heard anyone call it the hottest album on the planet at that time.

a look at the charts leads me to believe Pink Floyd's 'The Wall' was probably the hottest album on the planet back then.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Billboard_200_number-one_albums_of_1979

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Billboard_200_number-one_albums_of_1980

...OTW didn't even top the Pop album chart. no way it was the hottest album on the planet.

was it the hottest R&B album on the planet? it may have been. though Donna Summers' 'Bad Girls' actually topped the Pop album chart. i dunno.

>What Thriller did was let Mars and the moon in on the MJ
>action....

i don't think so. i don't think OTW was the juggernaut you're trying to make it out to be. it was a big selling record, sure. very popular. about as popular as records before it like SITKOL and probably Gratitude. i've talked to older relatives about OTW and none of them talk about it the way you are now. i've read articles so i know the record sold more than any R&B album before it but none say it was received like it was the biggest Black record ever heard of in the history of ever or that it was received like Thriller w/in the Black community. hell, my mom who was a huge MJ fan didn't even own a copy of OTW. she stopped w/Destiny.

so, i don't think so.

fuck you.

  

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mistermaxxx08
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Tue Oct-01-13 03:50 PM

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86. "Diana Ross was a Legend back then as Aretha Franklin"
In response to Reply # 79


          

James Brown and Stevie Wonder.

Diana Ross back then though was the biggest name in Black Pop

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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Joe Corn Mo
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80. "how as "thriller" selling before he moonwalked?"
In response to Reply # 77


  

          

would "thriller" have been the biggest selling album of all time
without that moment?

this was a question posed by the music snobs.

i am sure it would have been successful, but the argument is that
mike wouldn't have gotten on MTV without motown 25.

is that true?

  

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SoWhat
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82. "RE: how was Thriller selling before he moonwalked?"
In response to Reply # 80
Tue Oct-01-13 03:43 PM by SoWhat

  

          

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Billboard_200_number-one_albums_of_1983

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Billboard_Hot_100_number-one_singles_of_1983

the show aired May 16, 1983.

fuck you.

  

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mistermaxxx08
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Tue Oct-01-13 03:42 PM

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83. "thriller would sell however Motown 25 and Berry Gordy's words"
In response to Reply # 80


          

were Nostradamus level if their ever was one.

he needed that kind of performance to change the landscape and he had that "IT" and vibe along with Pepsi tie in commericals and cross over appeal that forever flipped the script.

he got branded and made it a statement before the likes of Michael Jordan, Lebron James, Shaq, Kobe, Tiger Woods, etc...


mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Tue Oct-01-13 02:19 PM

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66. "hol the fuck up.... frampton ain't a legend?!!!"
In response to Reply # 61


  

          


█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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SoWhat
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68. "stay focused."
In response to Reply # 66


  

          

fuck you.

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Tue Oct-01-13 02:28 PM

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70. "http://bit.ly/1fGyQIT"
In response to Reply # 68
Tue Oct-01-13 02:28 PM by imcvspl

  

          

http://bit.ly/1fGyQIT

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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SoWhat
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71. "he feels like we feel."
In response to Reply # 70


  

          

fuck you.

  

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mistermaxxx08
Member since Dec 31st 2010
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Tue Oct-01-13 03:49 PM

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85. "Frampton is a very talented Guitar player, however "
In response to Reply # 66


          

it ain't like folks are holding him in the same regard as Carlos Santana who matched him with his own Diamond album.

Framtpon been trying to recapture Frampton comes alive for almost 40 years.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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Bombastic
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100. "No, Peter Frampton is not a legend."
In response to Reply # 66


  

          

https://soundcloud.com/matt-koelling-666011203

www.somethinginthewudder.com

https://twitter.com/nostrabombus

https://www.facebook.com/matt.koelling.96

https://www.instagram.com/something_in_the_wudder/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-koelling-438a80

  

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Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
15139 posts
Tue Oct-01-13 02:04 PM

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63. ""thriller" was the third time MJ did the impossible."
In response to Reply # 60


  

          

the first time he did the impossible was with the Jackson 5 success.
i agree with SoWhat, that success made him a legendary kid act.

then when he did "off the wall," it was an kid star morphing into
an adult star, which never happens. that was the second time he
did the impossible.

he was definitely a star because of off the wall.
but i think the legend of michael jackson as we know it today
was born on motown 25, when the kid star who had somehow morphed into an adult star did a reunion with his brothers, and did a medley of their old hits...

only to watch his bothers leave the stage so that he could perform a NEW song on a motown reunion special,
that somehow was more trans formative than the adult songs that
had made him an adult start to begin with.



the legend of MJ came from the fact that
it was impossible to do what he did with the jackson 5,
it was impossible for the kid star to be an adult star,

and now.. he did the impossible a third time, in a way that
topped off the wall.

symbolically enough, he got a standing ovation from the
legends in the audience... so it was a symbolic coronation
of the once and future king of pop.

and really, that entire special was the curtain call for
r&b/ soul as we knew it, before the hip hop movement that was
brewing at the time took over everything. but that's another post entirely.


>
>
>Actually, Off The Wall already did that...
>
>Motown 25 helped do something entirely different....
>
>It made MJ the biggest recording artist on the planet....

  

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mistermaxxx08
Member since Dec 31st 2010
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Tue Oct-01-13 03:27 PM

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78. "not on the Pop side of town, because if you ever "
In response to Reply # 58


          

go on youtube look up MJ and diana ross on the red carpet at the 1981 oscars and Regis Philbin was the outside announcer and anyway

He addressed Diana ROss who at the time was the biggest Black Artist in Black Pop and MJ was her date and Regis said oh, here is Michael Jackson from the Jackson 5 and you outta see the awkwardness reaction on MJ's face from that exchange. lets just say Diana Ross or no Diana Ross MJ would never again play second fiddle to nobody.


you gotta remember despite how big the J5 were, they did Vegas in a time when that wasn't the place to be and a sign you were on the decline.

and though Quincy Jones owns half of hollywood, him and MJ teaming up met with blank stares and Off the wall was loved and worshiped in our hood and other MJ fans, however the industry said he was too black.

so Motown 25 performance who Berry Gordy told him would be huge and important to his career, forever changed the MJ landscape.

you and I came along when there weren't many Black Acts getting that kind of shine and you know all to well how big thriller was and what it meant.

however us in my hood loved MJ regardless, however thriller let that magic fully out of the bottle for the whole world to embrace him even more

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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princeguy
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Tue Oct-01-13 03:54 PM

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87. "Michael's producers should be"
In response to Reply # 78


          

proud.

Quincy Jones is a genius.

Rod Temperton is a genius as well.

I also had no idea Claudette Ortiz is credited with backing vocals on Human Nature.

Princeguy reviews:

"No pretentiousness.

No pompous re-interpretations.

Sometimes, a movie is just a movie. You work hard for your money.

The decision is yours.

See and enjoy what YOU like."

  

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mistermaxxx08
Member since Dec 31st 2010
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Tue Oct-01-13 03:59 PM

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89. "Q needed an MJ to update his thing in a real way"
In response to Reply # 87


          

MJ needed a Cat like Q mainly to put out the right type of songs and not just anything. a Cat like MJ is a Incredible talent, however with just anybody as a Producer you don't get all that out of him and what Q was able to do and challenge him.

Rod Temperton is a Badd Cat, however he needed an MJ to take his songs even further and it was accomplished ten fold.

you gotta have the songs to match the talent and everything else will fall into line

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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SoWhat
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Tue Oct-01-13 05:55 PM

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92. "Claudette was an infant when HN was recorded. Lol"
In response to Reply # 87
Tue Oct-01-13 05:56 PM by SoWhat

  

          

Which part does she claim she sang??

Lol!

>I also had no idea Claudette Ortiz is credited with backing
>vocals on Human Nature.

fuck you.

  

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princeguy
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Tue Oct-01-13 08:02 PM

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94. "RE: Claudette was an infant when HN was recorded. Lol"
In response to Reply # 92


          

Yeah,

I thought the same exact thing.

Probably some Wikipedia BS, but it's on Wikipedia:

Personnel

Written and composed by Steve Porcaro and John Bettis
Produced by Quincy Jones
David Paich: Synthesizer
Steve Porcaro: Synthesizer, synthesizer programming
Steve Lukather: Guitar
Jeff Porcaro: Drums
Paulinho Da Costa: Percussion
Michael Boddicker: Emulator
Claudette Ortiz: Backing vocals
Arrangement by David Paich, Steve Porcaro and Steve Lukather

Princeguy reviews:

"No pretentiousness.

No pompous re-interpretations.

Sometimes, a movie is just a movie. You work hard for your money.

The decision is yours.

See and enjoy what YOU like."

  

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SoWhat
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Tue Oct-01-13 08:40 PM

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95. "i'm looking at the original record sleeve w/the credits right now."
In response to Reply # 94


  

          

her name ain't on it.

fuck you.

  

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Nvncible1
Member since Jun 17th 2011
1900 posts
Wed Oct-02-13 12:55 PM

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97. "RE: i'm looking at the original record sleeve w/the credits right now."
In response to Reply # 95


  

          

She's on the Boys II Men remake.

Wtf?!

  

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SoWhat
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101. "ah ha!"
In response to Reply # 97


  

          

that makes sense.

fuck you.

  

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SoWhat
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Tue Oct-01-13 06:56 AM

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57. "damn. you tied yourself in a knot there."
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

LOL

fuck you.

  

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Warren Coolidge
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Mon Sep-30-13 02:54 PM

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50. "Let us not forget ...Mikes Motown performance set the stage for"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

the VICTORY TOUR....

which although tours since have grossed more..... The hype and energy leading up to the Victory tour was something that has not been seen....before or since...for a concert tour....

One day...some day they'll make a documentary about the victory tour...and include ..finally an official release of an entire show from the tour.....

  

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mistermaxxx08
Member since Dec 31st 2010
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Tue Oct-01-13 03:36 PM

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81. "30 dollar tickets in 1984 was making folks heated"
In response to Reply # 50


          

MJ donated all his money to charity. however fast forward to today and it costs 30 dollars to go see Solange or Bobby Valentino not exactly household names. nowadays you can't even go See a 3rd or 4th tier act for anything less than 40 dollars in a regular size venue.

that tour had everybody and their momma catching it and MJ tore it up as did Jermaine and yet they were in seperate quarters because MJ never wanted any part of that tour.

he only did it for his parents and also because his brothers needed the money. that's why MJ made it clear that would the last tour he would do with them ever.

it was memorable for so many reasons. Don King being a part of it alone made it something to talk about.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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fire
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Tue Oct-01-13 04:10 PM

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90. "mike is about the only person that gets a lip synching pass"
In response to Reply # 0


          

i do not appreciate the laziness that is attached to most lip synching performances.

________________________________________
who gonna check me boo?!

www.twitter.com/firefire100
http://instagram.com/firefire100
www.philadelphiaeagles.com

  

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SoWhat
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91. "was Janet 1 of the 1st to lip-synch to newly-recorded vocals?"
In response to Reply # 90


  

          

in concerts at times and on some tv performances she lip-synched to a vocal track that sounded like it was recorded while she danced. she didn't just lip synch to the vocals recorded for the single version or the album version of whatever song. when i 1st noticed this i thought it was genius! lol

fuck you.

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Wed Oct-02-13 07:40 AM

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96. "RE: was Janet 1 of the 1st to lip-synch to newly-recorded vocals?"
In response to Reply # 91


          

>in concerts at times and on some tv performances she
>lip-synched to a vocal track that sounded like it was recorded
>while she danced. she didn't just lip synch to the vocals
>recorded for the single version or the album version of
>whatever song. when i 1st noticed this i thought it was
>genius! lol


Ha!

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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98. "thoughts"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

this event solidified mj as a dancer. not just a singer who could do coreography but a dancer in his own right. it exposed a personal flare about him which people could then also attribute to his music and combine them to define a true wunderkid which would be the boost needed to raise him to the king of pop status.

the unfortunate downside to this is that it helped push the music to the backseat. after this event everything that mj did had to be an event in which music while playing a major role was not the sum objective. specifically in the live arena he no longer made an effort to bring the realness of his musical performance to the forefront but wanted each performance to be has vivid as the videos.


█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
23113 posts
Wed Oct-02-13 01:06 PM

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99. "RE: thoughts"
In response to Reply # 98


          

>this event solidified mj as a dancer. not just a singer who
>could do coreography but a dancer in his own right. it
>exposed a personal flare about him which people could then
>also attribute to his music and combine them to define a true
>wunderkid which would be the boost needed to raise him to the
>king of pop status.
>
>the unfortunate downside to this is that it helped push the
>music to the backseat. after this event everything that mj
>did had to be an event in which music while playing a major
>role was not the sum objective. specifically in the live
>arena he no longer made an effort to bring the realness of his
>musical performance to the forefront but wanted each
>performance to be has vivid as the videos.

I can see this side of things....Very fair and even handed....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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mistermaxxx08
Member since Dec 31st 2010
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Wed Oct-02-13 11:09 PM

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104. "the man made classic albums, songs and tours"
In response to Reply # 98


          

i mean he did it on a grand scale, had the old guard treating him like a "DON" and the new Guard felt he was a "DON" and he was a standard.

bottom line he had that "IT" voice, music, Moves and the goods.

you got watered down version of what he did, however it just goes to show how a Once in a Lifetime type of Musical Genius he truly was.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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kwez
Member since Aug 10th 2003
11774 posts
Wed Oct-02-13 06:06 PM

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103. "Bobby Brown took it a step further and lip synced to an improvisation"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgfK_M-8_fw

Pretty clever.

************************

  

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