i remember reading gil scott-heron talking about this.
matching the actual music to the sentimental topic of your lyrics is one of the hardest things a songwriter can conquer.

2pac was an absolute master at doing this and it is probably why he was as successful as he was, despite whatever flaws he may have had as a person/rapper...

"juicy" is a perfect example of this.

you have a song thats message is "uplifting" matching with a cheesy 80's jheri-curl sex-funk track (no diss).

"juicy" works better with the actual chords/notes than the original song's topic.

this is such an understated attribute in pop. music that is very much responsible for music "resonating" with ppl.

the "feeling", the "emotional response".

i.e. return listens, reliving feelings, emotions, the way the song makes you feel and the emotions/thoughts it evokes.

big reason why nothing from the 00's means anyone to anyone.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

because you can play a few notes out of a scale and get a different emotional response than playing the entire scale.

and likewise for a few notes out of a scale in a certain sequence getting a different response than others out of the same scale.

it's a case by case basis.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

there's too much allowed variance.

and you can't fucking match sentiments to scales / chords.

you want me to help you out

major - happy
minor - sad
7th - leading up to
diminished - solemn

what the fuck did you make this post for... tos ay that biggie did a better job over a sample than the original? guess what, that part of the post was dumb as shit too.

*sorry i'm having a shitty week*

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

like the actual subject matter you match to achieve that evocation resonating with more ppl than a minority.

If it's not the specific chord and scale relations being tied to the sentiments what's the general idea we're supposed to be going off on here? It's natural that these things play into how we feel the emotions of the music. Without the specifics though I really don't know what you're trying to say... especially when you throw the word 'hit' in there.

I mean there's that clip someone posted with the comedy act showing all the major hits have the same progression. Is that what you mean?

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

>major - happy
>minor - sad
>7th - leading up to
>diminished - solemn

What you've posted here, this schoolboy level of music theory, indicates you don't understand context, or cadences, or expectation, or resolution. What's more troubling, beyond the shaky grasp of harmonic progression, is that you were compelled to act like such a cocksucker about it.

>What you've posted here, the schoolboy level of music theory,

WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS HATE ON ME WEEK!!? DO I HAVE TO BRING OUT THE AYO SON?? YALL MOTHERFUCKERS MAN!!

>indicates you don't understand context, or cadences, or
>expectation, or resolution.

NONE OF THAT WAS ASKED FOR!! NIGGA SAID MATCH FUCKING CHORDS TO SENTIMENTS!!! OF COURSE IT'S NOT UNIFUCKINGVERSAL BUT IF YOU WANT TO FUCKING TALK ABOUT GODDAMN CHORDS AND SCALES AT LEAST YOU KNOW LIST SOME FUCKING CHORDS/SCALES AND GODDAMN SENTIMENTS!!!

>What's more troubling, beyodn the
>shaky grasp of harmonic progression,

NIGGA WE HAVEN'T EVEN GOTTEN TO HARMONIC PROGRESSION AND CONNECTING THE CHORDS ONE TO THE NEXT IN A MANNER WHICH MAKES GODDAMN SENSE TO THE SENTIMENTS OF THE GODDAMN SONG!! WE NEED TO YOU KNOW HAVE AN IDEA OF THOSE CHORDS AND SENTIMENTS FIRST SO WE CAN ACTUALLY TALK ABOUT SOMETHING!!! THE FUCK DUN!!!

>is that you were
>compelled to act like such a cocksucker about it.

ME AND BAMMER HAVE A SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP. I CAN BE A COCKSUCKER TO HIM HE CAN BE A COCKSUCKER TO ME (NO FUCKING PAUSE). WE BOTH TAKE THAT SHIT WITH A GRAIN OF SALT. WHICH IS WHY I APOLOGIZED AT THE END OF THE MESSAGE TO HIM SO THAT HE KNEW WHERE IT WAS COMING FROM.

YOU THOUGH, YOU'RE JUST HELL BENT ON PROVING I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE FUCK I'M TALKING ABOUT FOR WHATEVER REASON I DON'T EVEN GET. GODDAMN SON!! YOU WANT TO COME AT ME ON SOME SHIT ABOUT MY KNOWLEDGE OF MUSIC SERIOUSLY GO FOR IT!! JUST STAY ON THE FUCKING TOPIC AND READ EVERYTHING THAT I RIGHT INSTEAD OF REACTING TO THE FIRST THING THAT RUFFLES YOUR FEATHERS. OR BETTER YET MAKE A POST TO BAIT ME INTO> I'M REAL EASY. YOU SEE HOW FUCKING QUICKLY I RESPONDED TO THIS SHIT!!


█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

Can't we just get this over with so that you can stop policing me. I think we was cool before? Maybe not. Maybe you've always thought I was a pretentious twat. I always thought you was cool. Still do. I'd love for you to keep challenging me on some shit, but lets' do it on even terms alright, not this catch him talking to the next man shit.

I talk shit, blow off steam, ramble faux deep shit, and completely talk out my ass all over these boards. It helps me get through the day. Especially a day like today, in a week like this week, after a month like this month, when all I really want is for my weekend to begin.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

...I don't know who's who and what history there is between this poster and that poster. If this is some longstanding thing between you and whoever that other guy is, then my bad.

I don't think you actually need to know anything in order to ^*hear* those things. Shit, you don't need to understand the theory behind a tritone substitution to recognize that its usage make something feel "jazzy" due to its heavy prominence in Jazz (post-be bop) whareas its not at all common in pop-, r&b- or rock-music. Basically, you recognize the *sound* even if you don't understand it.

I know how negative and annoying Bammer can be but I'm not into this "show your musical theory knowledge"-trip; people can still have opinions and recognize this shit; I find it a bit elitist to go and ask for specific examples...

I'm fucking with you Jakob.

>I don't think you actually need to know anything in order to
>^*hear* those things. Shit, you don't need to understand the
>theory behind a tritone substitution to recognize that its
>usage make something feel "jazzy" due to its heavy prominence
>in Jazz (post-be bop) whareas its not at all common in pop-,
>r&b- or rock-music. Basically, you recognize the *sound* even
>if you don't understand it.
>
>I know how negative and annoying Bammer can be but I'm not
>into this "show your musical theory knowledge"-trip;

It really wasn't on some show me your music knowledge shit. I was genuinely intrigued by the subject, but upon reading didn't know what the fuck bammer was talking about. I mean his primary examples are two rappers and a sampled song, but the subject was chords and scales and he didn't mention either one inside the post I felt like I'd been duped. Or more specifically I felt like there was a question that bammer wanted to ask. But there was no question, no statement on the relations, just typical bannerisms with a sly slight thrown in for good measure.

>people
>can still have opinions and recognize this shit; I find it a
>bit elitist to go and ask for specific examples...

But he started with examples without exemplifying them. How am I supposed to know what he means?

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

Interesting topic, but it's obvious you know very little about music theory. But, to add to the discussion....certain keys (or scales) do have different emotional effects. Because of the range that a chord is in (certain chords lay lower or higher on the piano/guitar). A lower chord may have a darker and more dense effect, where higher chords express something different. Beethoven understood this and wrote his pieces with this in mind, and chose the key of his song based off the emotion he wanted to portray. Different scales also portray different emotion (minor is more dark then major). As for pop music, very few write this way. Usually, a song writer matches the key to the melody they want to use (that they hear in their head, or wrote), or because the singer sounds best in a certain range (they might be limited, high voice vs low voice). Also, many pop songs of the past are popular guitar keys like E, G, or B.

-------------------------
“Floyd Mayweather should be taking fights up to 157 or 160 pounds...His frame can hold the weight..it's not even a lot of weight....Go to the gym and lift weights man..lol.”-- Warren Coolidge

A certain OKP-who shall remain nameless-dismissed Ornette Coleman for "making music ofr its own sake" as if that is something bad. However, I understamd what he was getting at; the keys major/minor as well as "blues" (which is a key in itself in a way) or various exotic scales that all translate to something, um, "exotic" (spanish, middle- or far eastern etc.) say something relateable to people which Ornette in his free approach to moving in-and-out of tonalities/keys/whatever. etc. apparently doesnt.

See also:the failure of 20th century classical and its atonal language to reach out to people ("It sounds like something my cat could have made walking on a piano"-the definition of a clueless idiot thing to say since there are obviously (?) other ways one can see if something is made on pure chance than wether it fit into a conventional diatonic scale; even if you are atonal, there are such things as patterns and rhythm) or extreme metal being disregarded as spped/brutality/whatever for its own sake due to the chord-progressions not fitting into major/minor/blues/whatever etc....

A lot of modern day Hip-Hop based on one chord or a keyboard line that doesn't really set a "mood" obviously fit as well; it's appeal to most folks that are fans I guess lies in the rhythms (and note that rhythm is contained in melody as well; rhythm does NOT equal drums or bass-common mistake)-that they are danceable rather than "emotionally" resonant.

However, was James Brown "emotionally" resonant in his hardcore soul-funk songs? That's the thing; I think there is a long tradition of black dance-music primarily based on rhythm rather than chord-progressions signifying this or that. Maybe the vocals and/or lyrics made a difference. However, even in Hip-Hop, how "emotionally" resonant are classics like "Sucker mc's" or "I know you got soul"? Actually, I always disliked that side about Tupac as well as the Biggie beat you are referring to not to mention a lot of Eminem- and Kanye-beats:they FORCE emotional resonance on you based on sad or emotional progressions rather than being emotionally resonant just by being some dope beats+rhymes...

>A certain OKP-who shall remain nameless-dismissed Ornette
>Coleman for "making music ofr its own sake" as if that is
>something bad. However, I understamd what he was getting at;
>the keys major/minor as well as "blues" (which is a key in
>itself in a way) or various exotic scales that all translate
>to something, um, "exotic" (spanish, middle- or far eastern
>etc.) say something relateable to people which Ornette in his
>free approach to moving in-and-out of
>tonalities/keys/whatever. etc. apparently doesnt.

Or at least have it qualified which your 'apparently' started. Just needs that 'to the greater majority of" before "people".

I was having a discussion just last week about how Trane could cluster chords. Now to the majority of folk those clusters just sound like noise, but when you break them down they contain so much harmonic information and going from one cluster to the next... whoo. Each of those clusters speak something to those in tune with the cluster. And they could be the same chords used by a maker of more pop friendly songs. Meaning that it's not just in the chords but the phrasing that helps carry the sentiment.

Alternately sometimes the sentiment is to challenge the listeners sentiments.

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

*that* is the issue I think people have: Trane was using an instrument primarily thought of as a melody-instrument (=the saxophone) and he was essentially playing chords on it (=something generally thought of as harmony/background). Granted, the saxophone doesn't have the same ability as a , say, guitar to *hold* the notes and make them harmonize with eachother but still, dude was arpeggiating chords when he played like that, in much the same way as. say, the Animals were on "House of the rising sun", just MUCH faster not to mention more complex chords.

Actually, I think he explicitly stated that he was inspired by the harp (another instrument trhat has the ability to hold the notes unlike a sax) when hr started to play like that.

The thing is that he mixed it with more melodic playing along scales in a generally static tonal center (the last year saw a change; he became more "difficult" tonally).

Either way, I always felt that people's (=the detractors) main issue with Trane was that they couldn't follow the melody but he was, as early as with Monk, playing stuff that wasn't even *meant* to be melodic in the first place. As far as *I* hear it, when he was playing like *that*, he was playing along with both the rhythmic foundation of Elvin Jones and the harmony of the other two;sitting around waiting for a catchy phrase is kind of missing the point:it's the *sound* as in chords/rhythm and by extension the resulting melody contained in all (as opposed to something played on top of a harmony/rhythm-group) that mattered.

That being said, he ALWAYS juxtaposed that style with more melodic phrases in his solo-career so I never saw it as him abandoning melody; just thinking three-dimensionally.

If you think about it, that challenge of the conventional role of the instruments (=a saxophone can become a harmonic device, a drum can play melody, a piano-HI CECIL!-can be a drum-set) was one of the core ideals of 60's jazz...

I think I lost your point somewhere, I need to go back, LOL!

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=5&topic_id=2841244&mesg_id=2841244&page=4

I also think the general public takes for granted why an artist like Trane would even go in such a direction. They can go back to all of his classic stuff and say he had such an amazing grasp of melody why would he abandon it like that. Or Miles made so many beautiful songs why would he abandon that altogether. BUt they take for granted that at some point the challenge in doing those things isn't enough. It becomes cliche for the artist, even if the audience still wants it.There's nothing worse than an artist who's bored with himself.

There's an interview with Trane when he's playing with Miles I think right before Giant Steps (though my years are likely off) where the interviewer asks where he's going next, and his answer is that he's trying to become more lyrical. You go listen to Giant Steps and understand it as a whole exercise around the cycle of fifths and you can see how that's him working through that challenge of knowing all the relations in his phrasing but trying to develop a more lyrical approach to it, which for him was achieved by embodying that cycle so that he could move in whatever direction he wanted effortlessly.

But what about when that becomes cliche? He's got melody and lyricism in his playing, what's next. Well he can't possibly do harmony, his instrument just isn't designed for that. But he's hearing so much of it around him and learning about a multitude of harmonic relations beyond conventional jazz thought. The challenge of bringing that to the table... BAM clusters.

But without the audience up for that challenge the push back is hard. Yet without having gone through that, we wouldn't have all the jewels he buried in those clusters. Perhaps the audience wasn't ready for it then, but tying it back to Bammer's last line, by the 00's have not the chords and scales run their course to the point of redundance. Why is compositional appropriation such a big thing at this time? Where is the next listening challenge. I say go back to those clusters and try to break the code.


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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

...was when he was playing in front of a free rhythm. Basically, you can be as experimental as you want but as long as you have the steady backbeat (even if it's polyrhythmic), they will follow (well, most).

However, abandon the steady rhythm and-BAM!-noise!

I always had this theory that the reason why "open-minded" music-fans loved electric Miles regardless of how "out" he would get was because of the groove. Meanwhile, artists like Cecil and Ornette who started to abandon the steady groove as early as 61-62 are dismissed as self-indulgent noise-makers regardless of how composed or structured the music is. And the popularity of "rhythmic" avantgarde like Pharoah Sanders "Karma" and others compared with rhytmically "freer" acts only proves my point.

Basically, as soon as Trane brought in Rashied Ali and his radical rhythmic conception, he was pretty much fucked even if people still followed for a while. Still, very few people like those recordss compared with, say, "A love supreme" which is a shame because both "Meditations" (with Elvin *and* Ali) and the mighty "Interstellar Space" are dope as fuck while still highly controversial within his discography... The thing is that trane is still playing his ass off; arguably more controlled and focused than ever before but because of the rhythm:NOISE!!!

i started playing a game with myself when i listen to a record.
the game is, "what is keeping me hooked into this song?"

also included, especially when the artist goes off on tangents,
is..."what is keeping this song from falling apart?"


like how the piano on "take five" doesn't go too far out rhythmically
because that's what keeps me aware of the weird time signature.

keeping some kind of back beat going does do a lot to keep me engaged.
but i've noticing that interesting things happen when you listen to players
deviate even from keeping something in a song going along predictably.
it's a stretch to listen to for a pop fan like me, but it's a good stretch.

It's a VERY controversial rock-album from 69 and based on the amazon-reviews, it hasn't lost its impact to shock. Personally, I loved it on first listen but I recognized the riff/tempo-change approach to songwriting from death metal.

Anyway, the reason I mention that album is that it has the rhythmic freedom and dissonance one expect from free-jazz; yet, the songs are meticilously structured without an ounce of improvisation and you can REALLY hear it as well; it's a simulation of freedom that to *me* work extremely well and it kicks ass just like a rock-record (BTW, the surrealistic lyrics are wonderful) while simultaneously being "interesting" like a free-jazz album.

Anyway, many people hate this album to the core but I always felt it could open the mind a little. Why? Because it worked for me! After that one:Eric Dolphy's "Out to lunch!" and even Cecil Taylor's "Unit structures" felt right at home and if you can handle Cecil, you can handle anything...

Of course, you might also think the album is the biggest piece of pretentious, self-indulgent crap ever; apparently, a lot of people do. ..

being a music head is like a drug.
i started off getting my fix from pop.

but you develop a tolerance.
you've done so many shots that you need harder shit to give you goosebumps.
so you just start seeking out shit that's more and more out there.



suddenly, music that most people find unlistenable, you find engaging.
it doesn't sound like noise anymore.

next thing you know, somebody walks in your room listening to music that sounds perfectly accessible to you and your friend asks, sincerely... "what the fuck are you listening to?"


i'm just a junkie looking for my next hit.
every once in a while you get a wave from great pop (see: blurred lines)
but most of it is too stepped on to give me the type of high I got from my first hit.

>...was when he was playing in front of a free rhythm.
>Basically, you can be as experimental as you want but as long
>as you have the steady backbeat (even if it's polyrhythmic),
>they will follow (well, most).
>
>However, abandon the steady rhythm and-BAM!-noise!

Jazz is to the toe tap and finger snap what hip-hop is to the head nod. That's supposed to be how you know you've got it. It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

>I always had this theory that the reason why "open-minded"
>music-fans loved electric Miles regardless of how "out" he
>would get was because of the groove. Meanwhile, artists like
>Cecil and Ornette who started to abandon the steady groove as
>early as 61-62 are dismissed as self-indulgent noise-makers
>regardless of how composed or structured the music is. And the
>popularity of "rhythmic" avantgarde like Pharoah Sanders
>"Karma" and others compared with rhytmically "freer" acts only
>proves my point.

I love em all but hey you know me. You're right though, I think rhythm is a prime thing in black music. And it reminds me of why Wynton discredits what he does.

>Basically, as soon as Trane brought in Rashied Ali and his
>radical rhythmic conception, he was pretty much fucked even if
>people still followed for a while. Still, very few people like
>those recordss compared with, say, "A love supreme" which is a
>shame because both "Meditations" (with Elvin *and* Ali) and
>the mighty "Interstellar Space" are dope as fuck while still
>highly controversial within his discography...

Those two and Ascension were like study pieces for me for a few years. Still so much that can be pulled out of them.

>The thing is
>that trane is still playing his ass off; arguably more
>controlled and focused than ever before but because of the
>rhythm:NOISE!!!

It's really hard for folk to grasp that his playing could have actually improved in that period, but it really did. Profoundly so.

Since I got you here really love to hear your opinion on the clips on this page - http://concretesoundsystem.com/odon/


█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

>Jazz is to the toe tap and finger snap what hip-hop is to the
>head nod. That's supposed to be how you know you've got it.
>It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.
>

The thing is that to me, it's still there!!! It just change every 10-15 seconds!!! Seriously, I never felt that the drumming in free-jazz really was *that* dissasociated from the jazz-tradition and if you compare it with some of the european free improvisation-musicans from the late 60's (who self-consciously cut themselvesw off from jazz and said that they were playing "themselves" which I find REALLY pretentious and wrong because their ideas were so obviously jazz-based; still, there *is* a difference even if musicians like Tony Oxley and Barry Guy has made names for themselves within jazz (tm) as well), I think the difference is there. And to not make this a black vs. white issue:a south african (black) drummer active in europe like Louie Moloho was bringing himself into the mix as well; it's not just US vs. europe but other continents too...


>>Basically, as soon as Trane brought in Rashied Ali and his
>>radical rhythmic conception, he was pretty much fucked even
>if
>>people still followed for a while. Still, very few people
>like
>>those recordss compared with, say, "A love supreme" which is
>a
>>shame because both "Meditations" (with Elvin *and* Ali) and
>>the mighty "Interstellar Space" are dope as fuck while still
>>highly controversial within his discography...
>
>Those two and Ascension were like study pieces for me for a
>few years. Still so much that can be pulled out of them.
>
>>The thing is
>>that trane is still playing his ass off; arguably more
>>controlled and focused than ever before but because of the
>>rhythm:NOISE!!!
>
>It's really hard for folk to grasp that his playing could have
>actually improved in that period, but it really did.
>Profoundly so.
>

Yes, it did. I'm not saying it's his best *music* but in terms of solo-construction and sheer intelligence applied-not to mention the virtuosity aspect, I think his last stuff beats everything he did previously and that's saying a lot because he was already a Mount Rushmore-figure. I still prefer the classic quartet though...
>Since I got you here really love to hear your opinion on the
>clips on this page - http://concretesoundsystem.com/odon/

I will check it out when I can...
>
>
>█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
>Big PEMFin H & z's
>"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1
>thing, a musician." © Miles
>
>"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=5&topic_id=2845492&mesg_id=2845492&page=

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

so when you hear an unusual progression, can you identify it right then and there?
i have a hard time with that, and i can't make sense of anything unless i'm
in front of a piano.


i can tell when somebody did something unconventional,
and i can identify the mood...
but i can't make sense of what they are doing harmonically without a piano in front of me.

and even if i have a piano in front of me, it takes a very long time to sort through
the chords unless it's a pop song with just the normal I, II iv V chords,
which i am betting better at finding relatively quickly.




if that is what you are doing, how long did it take to develop the ear for the harmonies?

but i get caught up really quick. I suck at identifying keys. i started on piano playing 'by ear' so if you sit me down I can usually work my way into a tune but actually identifying what's going on, i gotta take it step by step. There's a separation between playing in the moment and knowing what i'm playing.

I blame laziness though because I never got into ear training the way I should have. Even now if I got up off my ass I could probably be a lot better.

Some folks I know made an app for i actually Quiztones. http://www.audiofile-engineering.com/quiztones/ I should be using that instead of all the time i spend bickering around here. LOL!

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

Like I can hear if something is phrygian or not due to the flattend second but ask me to tell if something is dorian or minor, it becomes more complex due to the sixth (=the differing note) being a larger interval and large intervals are more difficult for me than small; I have to think rather than just hear. In my defense. I think that is quite natural...

not for nothing,
I just discovered this site today...


http://www.hooktheory.com/trends


^ i think this is the type of stuff bummer wanted to talk about in this post, actually.
i guess.

anyway, it's more about deconstructing pop than jazz, still.
really interesting. i'm messing around with it tonight.

>http://www.hooktheory.com/trends

Thanks for that. Pretty cool just how much they've got in there.


█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

Thanks for that. 3 hours of downtime at work are staring at me in 20 minutes. Wish I brought my guitar.

I have a very good ear for single-line melodys and what scales they use etc. due to me playing bass and practicing along. However-and I blame my metal-background on this because I only heard power-chords and single-notes as a kid-I am not too good at identifying chords beyond major, minor, 7th, maj7th and, well, that's it. However, I can recognize the root note of a chord and, thus, theprogression by ear due to a good relative pitch witch relate to what I wrote above; you have a progression and I can tell the relationship of the chords on a root-level like I-IV or whatever but the extension notes (=9th, 11th, 13th, sus4 whatevr), I'm not too good at and yes, I blame that on playing bass (=a single note instrument) and metal (=a genre which really don't teach you shit about *vertical* harmony even if I can recognize arpeggios etc.)

The Macklemore single about gay people is another example. It's like the approach of the song is 'I'm gonna make an uplifting lyric about gay people so we need a chord progression. Let's take 'People get ready' by The Impressions....have someone play it on piano. And BINGO! Immediate uplifting vibe that can be the backdrop to our uplifting lyric. So I agree...there can be a contrived or forced feeling to it.

It's hard to draw a clean line when an attempt like that works and when it doesn't though. Unfortunately....it kinda falls into a 'I know it when I see it' territory.

But it's certainly possible to take 10 or 15 of the most common chord progressions used in pop music and attribute some broad type of emotional/conceptional adjectives to. Interesting to think of the possibility that those associations we make are nature v nurture. Is there something intrinsic in a descending chord progression like 'My guitar gently weeps' that results in us having a dark, foreboding vibe? Or is it something that is trained....we're used to being manipulated into feeling the dark foreboding vibe when that chord progression is used? Same with the uplifting/hopeful vibe of the Impressions 'People get ready'. Is the association between the chords and the vibe intrinsic or have we just been trained to associate them together?

Another point is that a common technique hitmakers use is that they'll purposefully use the OPPOSITE lyrical concept/mood for a chord progression's typical association. And that can be really effective when employed properly. At a basic level, sad sounding music with a happy message or happy sounding music with a sad message. So an example would be taking the 'people get ready' progression and writing a song about hopelessness in some manner.

I think Bammer is kinda missing the intricacy of his own point though. It's not that today's artists are refusing to match the mood with the associations we make with a chord progression. It's that those combinations have become really dumbed down whereas in the past...there was a bit more nuance/sophistication in how they were used in the writing process.

I was thinking 'tension' and 'resolution'. If you take the them of a song and say okay is it a resolved issue or does it leave you hanging in the balance it kind of directs how you can flow with it musically. The verses in I'm so excited on their own have this dark tone to them, but its because of that that the excitement is so powerful. You know you've arrived at a release. A balanced yin yang. You gotta feel the tension in order to know the release. And then you have the end where it shifts up in key to take you even higher!!

Fiona Apple's "Warewolf" is another great one... After all when a song ends in a minor keeeeeeyyyyyeeyeyeeeeeyeyeyyyyy.

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

it's the perfect marriage of lyrics and music.

do you know where you're going to?
do you like the things that life is
showing you?
where are you going to?

@DO you know?


that last "do you know?" is just hanging there, suspended.
it ends on the fifth measure of what feels like should be a four measure hook.
the word "do" uses a dissonant note.
and using a short sentence after three longer ones just adds to the uncertainty.



and when the key change comes, representing the nostalgia...
everything seems so bright. but the lyrics undercut that brightness
because she's looking back on something she didn't appreciate while it was there,
and now that she understands she can't go back.




and at the end, they slowly strip away the lush orchestration,
breaking the melody down to its most basic pieces...
and you are left alone.

it ends with a "happy" sounding chord...
but that just goes to show you that every happy chord isn't happy.
melancholy. bittersweet.


that song will have a motherfucker contemplating all his life decisions of you
hear it at the wrong time. lol

Ahhhhh!

Classic rock BOREDOM! The negative impact of that song and its vibe can not be overestimated; it's everything bad about 70's rock in a song from '68!!! The thing is that I like it but still... poisonous tune. I even have some issues with Black Sabbath-songs when they bring that vibe into the mix...

Another one that comes to mind is the Leppelin 'Babe I'm gonna leave you' type riff which has been used over and over again. Start with a minor chord and drop the root note 3 times while maintaining the rest of the notes. And people almost always start with Aminor (dropping the root to G, then to F then to E) or Bminor (dropping the root note to A to G to F)

the descending i-vii-bvi-v thing in various combinations (and yes, in A, it's exactly as you described it); they used it in SO many songs. Of course, they played it as power-chords or single-notes/basslines rather than full chords but still. Sabbath's "NIB" (the riff under the guitar-solo) is the first one that comes to mind for me as a song that really brings that vibe to mind historically.

you can't hear those strings in the psycho shower scene
and not know something bad is happening.
if a human in the forest heard an animal make that sound, they'd run.



and i read a study where folks across different cultures with different
harmonic rules still could tell the happy songs from the sad ones.
your ear gets used to predicting a certain thing will happen.
when something different happens, it illicits a reaction.

part of it is learned... but i think some of it is just in our DNA or something.



>The Macklemore single about gay people is another example.
>It's like the approach of the song is 'I'm gonna make an
>uplifting lyric about gay people so we need a chord
>progression. Let's take 'People get ready' by The
>Impressions....have someone play it on piano. And BINGO!
>Immediate uplifting vibe that can be the backdrop to our
>uplifting lyric. So I agree...there can be a contrived or
>forced feeling to it.
>
>It's hard to draw a clean line when an attempt like that works
>and when it doesn't though. Unfortunately....it kinda falls
>into a 'I know it when I see it' territory.
>
>But it's certainly possible to take 10 or 15 of the most
>common chord progressions used in pop music and attribute some
>broad type of emotional/conceptional adjectives to.
>Interesting to think of the possibility that those
>associations we make are nature v nurture. Is there something
>intrinsic in a descending chord progression like 'My guitar
>gently weeps' that results in us having a dark, foreboding
>vibe? Or is it something that is trained....we're used to
>being manipulated into feeling the dark foreboding vibe when
>that chord progression is used? Same with the
>uplifting/hopeful vibe of the Impressions 'People get ready'.
>Is the association between the chords and the vibe intrinsic
>or have we just been trained to associate them together?
>
>Another point is that a common technique hitmakers use is that
>they'll purposefully use the OPPOSITE lyrical concept/mood for
>a chord progression's typical association. And that can be
>really effective when employed properly. At a basic level,
>sad sounding music with a happy message or happy sounding
>music with a sad message. So an example would be taking the
>'people get ready' progression and writing a song about
>hopelessness in some manner.
>
>I think Bammer is kinda missing the intricacy of his own point
>though. It's not that today's artists are refusing to match
>the mood with the associations we make with a chord
>progression. It's that those combinations have become really
>dumbed down whereas in the past...there was a bit more
>nuance/sophistication in how they were used in the writing
>process.

this is partly why rap was so hot/popular in the 80s/90s/early 00's.

you had all this music made in the 60s/70s/80s that didn't necessarily have the right sentiment attached to the music.

rappers came in with a new form of conveying thoughts/ideas than singing.
much short notes, more notes per bar than singing.
more room for saying things...

attached with little segments music recorded in lo-fi fidelity.

boom... hip-hop.

but why did it work so well...

why would a song about oral sex match with the guitar from brick's "fun"?

this was the beauty of rap over sample-based programming.

in 02 forward, when sampling lost traction...
you had 2 note piles of shit with lyrics equally as insipid.

big reason you'd never hear anybody banging something like "shake ya tailfeather" 10 years after the fact but in 03 plenty of people were still playing shit from 93 and are still playing shit from 93 today.

the bridge to "frontn'" sound exactly like you feel
when the vibe is just right and you are imagining the possibilities of maybe making this
a for real thing. it's the sentimental version of the phrase "standing on the verge of getting it on."


same goes with "U don't have to call."



in their prime, the neptunes were the best beat makers not just because they
had the hottest sounds... but because they found the artist that fit the song
which fit the lyrics and they coaxed the best performance out of the artist.
(babyface never sounded cool until "there she goes" dropped.
he's gushed over women before, but that we the first time i believed he had a chance to find what he was looking for. usher was always a great singer,
but he never knocked it out the park until he hit the opening falsetto note
on U don't have to call... the lyrics fit the songs which fit the beat which fit
artist. even the bridge matches the lyrics. the chords sound upbeat, yet bittersweet.
i'm gonna have a good time tonight, regardless of my heartbreak.)




to a lesser extent, kanye was able to do thus with alicia keys on "you don't know my name."

that's the first time she sounded soulful. that's the first time i believed what she was singing about. and the production values matched the lyrical content. the song sounds like limmerance.



and even on the rap side... you had the neptunes and other superproducers
making tracks that sounded like the lyrical content of the song.
"cot damn" and "griding"by the clipse.
"work it" by missy.


hell... Even ja rule tracks always sounded like the lyrical mood he was trying to set.

vibe of the chords and melody more than the original El Debarge song did...it has a sad, but kiinda uplifting type of vibe going on with it. Which is what made it HAAAARD for me to listen to when he first died. And especially the video version.

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Was haunting. Definitely.

-------
so I'm in a band now:
album ---> http://greenwoodburns.bandcamp.com/releases
Soundcloud ---> http://soundcloud.com/greenwood-burns

my own stuff -->http://soundcloud.com/lonesomedstringband

avy by buckshot_defunct

because i've been schooled.

Certain songs make me feel something and i recognize that the change in the music had something to do with it. I'm no scholar so i wouldn't be able to articulate it but y'all have laid it out for me.

Blackstar's Thieves in the Night is one I always think about. At the 2:43 mark where Mos says 'get yours first...' and the tone/sound of the piano changes.

youtube.com/watch?v=GjxtRehlz2Y

*bookmarked*

___________________________
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