http://www.radioopensource.org/cuba-in-our-ears-iv-ned-sublette/

The man Ned Sublette (as always) drops some great knowledge here about how, due largely to political reasons, Cuban music has remained the ghost in the machine of Anglo-American and African-American popular music, serving as the secret ingredient that broke the distinctively funky Congo edge* to black American music's Senegambian swing.

I know lots of folks got mad last time I posted about this… not sure why. I mean, I get that the idea was that I was trying to take away credit from American negroes for certain musical innovations, but does it really matter when the Cubans came from Africa too (and in fact, had come from Africa much more recently than their American counterparts)?

(Also, if you listen closely you'll hear some validation for my argument that the notion of Fela's afrobeat sound being predominantly influenced by James Brown is fraudulent and ignorant--the main influence was Afro Cuban.)




*peace afrobongo

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http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

safe to say I had the most fun yesterday!

truly touched to see how music can cut across every section of life

young old black white

if you can't move to that

you might be dead

they also transitioned seamlessly to cultures

the guitar player on that highline

the trombone player is from Montana

for the encore they did more of a carnival sounding song

and dude grabbed the mic and starting kicking some ol' country and western jawn

it was incredible!

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

been wanting to, though... I love African salseros

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

thanks - going to listen to this later.

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

(if you didn't see my post on Stephen Wade's new book, though...)

-------
so I'm in a band now:
album ---> http://greenwoodburns.bandcamp.com/releases
Soundcloud ---> http://soundcloud.com/greenwood-burns

my own stuff -->http://soundcloud.com/lonesomedstringband

avy by buckshot_defunct

>(if you didn't see my post on Stephen Wade's new book,
>though...)

I'll search for it now...

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

you were one of the first people to make that link(Cuba -> Afro-American) and it opened up my ears. The favor was returned too through American Jazz influencing Cuban musicians. One of my favorite memories of the time I spent in Cuba was chopping it up with a Cuban old head and he was quoting melodic phrases from John Coltrane and shit. Cuban old heads know jazz quite well and hold it in almost mythic regard.

my man you should make it down to Havana/Cuba. I've never felt so strongly that a piece of land could have a "soul". Hard to explain but you'll see what I mean.

>my man you should make it down to Havana/Cuba. I've never felt
>so strongly that a piece of land could have a "soul". Hard to
>explain but you'll see what I mean.

There are few places in the world that I want to go to... and I know I got to get there before Castro dies too, because it's not gonna be the same after that.

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

>I know lots of folks got mad last time I posted about this…
>not sure why. I mean, I get that the idea was that I was
>trying to take away credit from American negroes for certain
>musical innovations, but does it really matter when the Cubans
>came from Africa too (and in fact, had come from Africa much
>more recently than their American counterparts)?


You basiclly said there would not be a "Black music" without the influence of Afro-Cuban music by pretty much directly discounting the influence on the music by African American people that was independent and unique from the Afro-Cuban influences.

you later went on to clarify and basiclly cop to your misrepresentation so it's kind of curious why you would now say that you did not understand why people challenged an assertion that you yourself would later back down from...

not trying to start a back and forth....just thought I'd clarify for you why in your words "people got mad"

thanks for the link btw..

>You basiclly said there would not be a "Black music" without
>the influence of Afro-Cuban music by pretty much directly
>discounting the influence on the music by African American
>people that was independent and unique from the Afro-Cuban
>influences.

I didn't "basically," "implicitly" or "explicitly" say there would not be a "Black" music with Afro-Cuban.

What I said is that there would not be a "Black music" as we today know.

And that ain't nothing but pure facts, Thompson.

>you later went on to clarify and basiclly cop to your
>misrepresentation so it's kind of curious why you would now
>say that you did not understand why people challenged an
>assertion that you yourself would later back down from...

Uh... When did I do this? I never recanted a damn thing in that post. If I recall, the post ended up getting derailed by O_E's stream of ad hominems, but I never changed my mind about a damn thing there.

If you claim that I "clarified my misrepresentation" maybe what you really mean is that you belatedly understood the point and realized that your paranoid belief that AFKAP was trying to take Black Music away from American Negroes was unfounded.

>not trying to start a back and forth....just thought I'd
>clarify for you why in your words "people got mad"
>
>thanks for the link btw..

You're welcome.

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http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

>>You basiclly said there would not be a "Black music"
>without
>>the influence of Afro-Cuban music by pretty much directly
>>discounting the influence on the music by African American
>>people that was independent and unique from the Afro-Cuban
>>influences.
>
>I didn't "basically," "implicitly" or "explicitly" say there
>would not be a "Black" music with Afro-Cuban.
>
>What I said is that there would not be a "Black music" as we
>today know.

I stand by what I said.



>
>And that ain't nothing but pure facts, Thompson.
>
>>you later went on to clarify and basiclly cop to your
>>misrepresentation so it's kind of curious why you would now
>>say that you did not understand why people challenged an
>>assertion that you yourself would later back down from...
>
>Uh... When did I do this? I never recanted a damn thing in
>that post. If I recall, the post ended up getting derailed by
>O_E's stream of ad hominems, but I never changed my mind about
>a damn thing there.

within that post itself...you backed down from the correction that people like OE and myself where bringing to you and restated your assertion in a more accurate manner. Although I still felt you were not being completely accurate as it was another attempt to minimize the impact of African American music by exagerating the impact of elements that were not distinctly and exclusive born of the Black man's experience in America.



>If you claim that I "clarified my misrepresentation" maybe
>what you really mean is that you belatedly understood the
>point and realized that your paranoid belief that AFKAP was
>trying to take Black Music away from American Negroes was
>unfounded.

um ...there is nothing unfounded or paranoid about it at all. Everyone has a right to their own school of thought, but when that school of thought is associated with exagerations, misrepresentations, and outright falsehoods...one should expect some push back from those who know better...

again...your inability to actually stand by what you say has always caused problems. It would be more respectable if a person with an opinion had the guts to actually stand on it when confronted rather than flat out lying or denying what they've said..

I would find it strange that if someone who started posts over the years like

"The Myth of Black Church Singing/Rockism in Black Music"
"The Tyranny of 'Cool' in Black Music and Culture"
"Black Americans fucking kill me"
"any black person who says the Beatles were not the shit (is a RACIST)" (cap locks were in the original post)"
"when did Black music become infected with this highfalutin idea of Art?"
"James Brown was scared of revolution"

just to name a few in the other volumes of posts

now to act super sensative when people correctly state that you have a lack of respect for Black American culture and music and are willing to exagerate and mischaracterize historical facts to support that agenda.... That has been at the crux of the so-called beef between you and Warren Coolidge from the very begining....me calling you on that bullshit and you sinking childish levels in response.

again..you'll deny your agenda....and claim that the content of those posts nor all the others show graphic evidence of that agenda...but that doesn't change what folks have been seeing from you for years.



but it is what it is...

You would have to answer why, if I backed down why then did I continue to make the same argument in many posts for a year after?

>I stand by what I said.

And what you said is completely fictional.

>within that post itself...you backed down from the correction
>that people like OE and myself where bringing to you and
>restated your assertion in a more accurate manner.

LMAO if I were you, I wouldn't ally myself with O_E because he offered no "correction" of any kind... All he did was make post after post calling me an insecure Uncle Tom who hates/is jealous of American Blacks, insult my ethnic background, claim to himself be of Nigerian descent and say that I make him ashamed of that.

Come to think of it: Your responses were pretty much a softer version of that, with the only "correction" you gave being saying over and over that I am "exaggerating" without ever telling me exactly what it is that I am exaggerating or setting me straight on the supposedly accurate series of events might be.

So... pretty much the same thing you're doing now.

Although I
>still felt you were not being completely accurate as it was
>another attempt to minimize the impact of African American
>music by exagerating the impact of elements that were not
>distinctly and exclusive born of the Black man's experience in
>America.

Yeah... that's what you said last time.

It don't mean shit unless you actually tell me what's been exaggerated.


>um ...there is nothing unfounded or paranoid about it at all.
>Everyone has a right to their own school of thought, but when
>that school of thought is associated with exagerations,
>misrepresentations, and outright falsehoods...one should
>expect some push back from those who know better...

What did I exaggerate, misrepresent or lie about?

You still haven't told me.

>again...your inability to actually stand by what you say has
>always caused problems. It would be more respectable if a
>person with an opinion had the guts to actually stand on it
>when confronted rather than flat out lying or denying what
>they've said..

LOL I'm standing by it right here and now, playboy. Why don't you tell me exactly what part of my statement is inaccurate so that I can offer a defense?


>I would find it strange that if someone who started posts over
>the years like
>
>"The Myth of Black Church Singing/Rockism in Black Music"
>"The Tyranny of 'Cool' in Black Music and Culture"
>"Black Americans fucking kill me"
>"any black person who says the Beatles were not the shit (is a
>RACIST)" (cap locks were in the original post)"
>"when did Black music become infected with this highfalutin
>idea of Art?"
>"James Brown was scared of revolution"
>
>just to name a few in the other volumes of posts
>
>now to act super sensative when people correctly state that
>you have a lack of respect for Black American culture and
>music and are willing to exagerate and mischaracterize
>historical facts to support that agenda....

Well... I hope you enjoyed that trek through the archives but hey! You forgot to mention my series about being embarrassed by pro-Black hip-hop!

I also made posts about White Americans fucking killing me, but I guess you will conveniently forget about that because it explodes your whole paranoid theory.

That has been at
>the crux of the so-called beef between you and Warren Coolidge
>from the very begining....me calling you on that bullshit and
>you sinking childish levels in response.

Blah blah blah... it's 2013, man. I SO don't want to have to go through this again.

So I won't.

If you think something I am saying is incorrect, tell me what it is... and tell me what the right thing is. All this other stuff is empty grammar.

>again..you'll deny your agenda....and claim that the content
>of those posts nor all the others show graphic evidence of
>that agenda...but that doesn't change what folks have been
>seeing from you for years.

Okay.

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

I'm not about to debate someone who does not honestly stand by what they've said.

been there ...

done that...


no reason to discuss this further unless the original post is produced.

I'm completely comfortable with the accuracy of anything I've said during those previous debates...although the existance of those debates is not something that I feel deserved my energy as again...debating with someone who is not going to be accurate about their statements serves no purpose.

I've asked you to tell me *right now* in real time... what exactly have I exaggerated, misrepresented or lied about as concerns this issue of the pervasive influence of Afro-Cuban rhythm on the music of the world?

I mean, obviously I am still repping this point of view, so you can tell me right now why you think it is fraudulent.

Here, I'll even give you an example for you to pick at. I said, for example, that the notion that Fela drew primarily and significantly on James Brown in developing Afrobeat was ignorant. I said that it is chiefly informed by Afro-Cuban jazz.

Like, 2 of these these things belong together... two of these things are kinda the same... can you guess which thing is not like the others? Now it's time to play our game...

"Tanga" http://youtu.be/DIV4MHb4CT0

"Shakara" http://youtu.be/55YJAk8RzNM

"Got To Have a Mother for Me" http://youtu.be/bKw1n-22AC8

Or was I lying when I said Ray Charles is credited with completely revolutionizing rhythm & blues with this nice Cuban number? http://youtu.be/xPP8w0wMRgQ

Was I lying when I cited Jelly Roll Morton, who claimed to have invented jazz (and is definitely accepted across the board as one of the people who shaped the sound) by injecting some Cuban habanera into his piano playing? Did I make up the quote:

"Then we had Spanish people there. I heard a lot of Spanish tunes. I tried to play them in correct tempo, but I personally didn't believe they were perfected in the tempos. Now take the habanera 'La Paloma,' which I transformed in New Orleans style.

You leave the left hand just the same. The difference comes in the right hand — in the syncopation, which gives it an entirely different color that really changes the color from red to blue. Now in one of my earliest tunes, 'New Orleans Blues,' you can notice the Spanish tinge. In fact, if you can't manage to put tinges of Spanish in your tunes, you will never be able to get the right seasoning, I call it, for jazz."

What exactly did I lie about?

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

"I know lots of folks got mad last time I posted about this… not sure why."


I explained why..... Your original post exagerated the influence of Afro-Cuban music on Black American music and musicians. From the title of that original post, to what you claimed within it.

That's the "why" you were referring to.

you backed down and changed what you were claiming in that post when your exagerations were confronted...

now your acting like you never made those original misstatements and exagerations....

dog, we getting too old for this, man... either you put your cards on the table or let's just let it rest and walk away from it.

I can't be playing this "let's sniff each other's asses all day" shit.

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

>dog, we getting too old for this, man... either you put your
>cards on the table or let's just let it rest and walk away
>from it.

your original post claimed that without afro-cuban music..there would not have been a Black American music. In fact the title of the post was saying specificlly that..... The original post was not about the influence....it was about the impact of that influence being so great that it's impact upon Black American music was more important that what Black Americans brought to Black American music beyond it....

and I repeatedly pointed out that the influence of Afro-Cuban elements on Black American Music in the larger history were "minimal overall and "indirect" as Black American music continued to evolve.

minimal...and indirect....

the same terms that were used to correct or assertion that Fela Kuti's music influenced James Brown to a greater degree than vice versa.

minimal...and indirect

were their elements of Afro Cuban music and culture that greatly influenced African American Music...absolutely. You mentioned many of them in your original post, and in this one. I for one never saw anyone questioning that. But that influence was not only limited in it's reach geographiclly...it was limited in time, and became less impactful as Black American Music evolved from the experience of Black Americans living IN AMERICA.

your original post claimed that the Afro Cuban influence was so strong that without it, there would not have been a Black American music...and it's influence was stronger than anything Black Americans brought to the table out of their own existence disconnected from Afro Cuban culture..

those where the exagerations from your original post.

I was not alone in correcting you on it...

you know what you said..and you know what you corrected yourself about. Honestly if you are not man enough to cop to it now...there is no need for a discussion..

>you know what you said..and you know what you corrected
>yourself about.

never happened.

and I never said any of this:

>your original post claimed that the Afro Cuban influence was
>so strong that without it, there would not have been a Black
>American music...and it's influence was stronger than anything
>Black Americans brought to the table out of their own
>existence disconnected from Afro Cuban culture..

I said that OBVIOUSLY Black Americans had music... but because American slavemasters were really vigorous in their prohibition of African drums and polyrhythms, Black American music was more string-based... fiddles and banjos as well as flutes and stuff like this: http://youtu.be/m6mRdPP6wRo

(I remember posting that same link too)

Of course there would still be a "Black music," but it would sound different... As Sublette points out in the podcast, without Cuba you don't get the classic polyrhythmic drum set, you don't get congas and other hand percussion instruments, you don't get deep, ostinato basslines...

All of these things are MAJOR elements in Black music as we know it--not "minimal and indirect" as you claim--and that's just a FEW contributions. I don't have time to start listing them all, especially when you've made it clear that you have your hands over your ears and are loudly going "Lalalalala not listening Idc Idc Idc"

But those who have open ears and open minds and hearts not crippled with racial/ethnic insecurity--they will hear.

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

>Like, 2 of these these things belong together... two of these
>things are kinda the same... can you guess which thing is not
>like the others? Now it's time to play our game...
>
>"Tanga" http://youtu.be/DIV4MHb4CT0
>
>"Shakara" http://youtu.be/55YJAk8RzNM
>
>"Got To Have a Mother for Me" http://youtu.be/bKw1n-22AC8

rather than "Tanga" I probably should have used Machito's "Wild Jungle" to illustrate

http://youtu.be/ztMMIaLMYbo

I think I chose "Tanga" because it was closer in tempo, but I think this one better spotlights the very clear influence... you can find these throughout Fela's early afrobeat recordings.

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

When I clicked on the "Shakara" YouTube link, there was a Chili's commercial at the beginning,

http://youtu.be/whqi_fjA4RU

Man, check out that heavy Congo-Latin bassline!

http://youtu.be/T8yebMSqpCc

The influence is everywhere...

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

Just let it go, man

Literally nobody even gives a shit

>Literally nobody even gives a shit

Thanks.

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

You're losing it this time.

You're trying to save face because you said some
things that you probably regret in that last debate

Nobody is holding it against you now.

I mean, I make fun of you for pretending to know who
David Foster Wallace is/was...I got new material


----------------------------

Young Broadway Star Urgently Needs a Bone Marrow Donor. Is it you? http://MatchShannon.com/







O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

>
>You're losing it this time.
>
>You're trying to save face because you said some
>things that you probably regret in that last debate
>
>Nobody is holding it against you now.
>
>I mean, I make fun of you for pretending to know who
>David Foster Wallace is/was...I got new material

*kisses teeth*

please go away. I'm interested in having a real discussion, not engaging in empty macho pee-pee games. If you got no interest in the subject matter, you got no real reason to be here.

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

http://www.havananewyork.com/ads/hvny_nf_sublette_kexp_8_09/

(Damn... the shit is in Windows Media and REAL AUDIO? Takes ya back, doesn't it?)

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

and holy shit at that Louie Louie sourcing...

-------
so I'm in a band now:
album ---> http://greenwoodburns.bandcamp.com/releases
Soundcloud ---> http://soundcloud.com/greenwood-burns

my own stuff -->http://soundcloud.com/lonesomedstringband

avy by buckshot_defunct

I want to check out that Dave Marsh book on the history of the song.

I can't remember if I posted this video last time I made this post: http://youtu.be/EerYrT-5VVc

(Somehow I think I probably did)

EDIT: Just saw that the top comment points out that Richard Berry's "Havana Moon" was actually recorded before Chuck's "Havana Moon"... that's cool, though, because I don't hear much of "Havana Moon" in "Louie Louie" even though RIchard has said that he was inspired by it.

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

they Balkanize it in 5/4, or maybe 9/8, and it works beautifully.

You can't find it, lemme know.

-------
so I'm in a band now:
album ---> http://greenwoodburns.bandcamp.com/releases
Soundcloud ---> http://soundcloud.com/greenwood-burns

my own stuff -->http://soundcloud.com/lonesomedstringband

avy by buckshot_defunct

I don't know... I might be stretching a bit, but I've always heard this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUwEIt9ez7M

as a derivation of this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1CoQNlEXIk&t=1m30s

It IS a very "Latin" riff anyway.

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-U7lfbada-Y (after about 17 seconds when the main-rhythm guitar riff kicks in). That one always gave me a "fingertips"-vibe (or vice-versa since I heard Stooges before) which makes sense because Iggy said that all they listened to when they made "Funhouse" was Motown, JB and Coltrane.

As for "Smoke on the water", it always reminded me a lot of a riff at the end of each verse in Mountain's "Crossroader" which came out in '71: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oi52w5QuVA It appears first after about 1.00 and is played exactly the same even if it's just the first half of the riff. However, Deep Purple had already started to record their album when that one came out so it may just be a coincidence. Or maybe not...


Sidenote: Deep Purple did some 70's Stevie-inspired stuff later in their Coverdale/Hughes-era (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYp5IcjvQRA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IFCjRAeC1U ) but I'm not sure if people are very familiar with that stuff; "cool" people have a tendency to ignore everything Coverdale-related.

And on that topic and "latin"-rhythms: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FfULNVdbmQ