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Subject: "?uestlove theory on types of black artist = mainstream success" Previous topic | Next topic
Eddy
Member since Jul 07th 2003
2465 posts
Thu Jun-21-12 07:49 AM

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"?uestlove theory on types of black artist = mainstream success"


  

          

I remember reading (what I think was a post on these forums) ?uest's theory on the (aprox) 5 or 6 different types of black image (e.g. gangster) one needs to succeed/blow up in the modern music industry.
I was just wondering if anybody had a link to this, or any other similar theories?

Thanks!

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
I've narrowed to
Jun 21st 2012
1
I wouldn't say Em's swag is the same as Jagger's.
Jun 21st 2012
2
the common denominator is
Jun 21st 2012
3
      RE: the common denominator is
Jun 22nd 2012
74
Kanye West
Jun 21st 2012
4
Kanye is interesting because he expresses opinions
Jun 21st 2012
5
I think he fits under all except the PC
Jun 21st 2012
8
Good one. The closest is clown.
Jun 21st 2012
10
The Clown
Jun 22nd 2012
67
none, really. Which is why he is so important to the genre
Jun 22nd 2012
69
lol
Jun 25th 2012
99
If blowing up about Britney Spears and interrupting T. Swift ain't
Jun 22nd 2012
78
i tried to think of an exception, all i came up with was... well,
Jun 21st 2012
6
Hendrix was primitive exotic.
Jun 21st 2012
7
okay, yeah.
Jun 21st 2012
9
      ?uest (Fallon era) is PC.
Jun 21st 2012
11
           gotcha.
Jun 21st 2012
12
           What about Ice T?
Jun 21st 2012
13
                i think he does.
Jun 21st 2012
15
                Is he PC now? like Ice Cube?
Jun 21st 2012
16
                     Definitely don't see him as PC but
Jun 21st 2012
18
                          now this MAY be a stretch...
Jun 21st 2012
20
                               Hmmm... I see what you mean regarding Denzel
Jun 21st 2012
21
                               Not to completely sidetrack but this is really interesting
Jun 21st 2012
30
                                    and he won an oscar for that role.
Jun 21st 2012
35
                                         "they" also like slaves:
Jun 21st 2012
36
                               with cube he's pc, but the gangster is now an artiface
Jun 21st 2012
23
           ?uest is PC/Clown The Fro is the star sad to say.
Jun 22nd 2012
75
Old &.or dead guys
Jun 21st 2012
41
so which white musicians are allowed to 'be themselves'?
Jun 21st 2012
14
Dave Grohl.
Jun 21st 2012
17
      Good call. That guy gets on the Grammys and stuff.
Jun 21st 2012
19
      Nah. Lauryn was too angry, shrill and humorless.
Jun 21st 2012
22
      she wanted to play the fear card. ppl forced her to play the exotic.
Jun 21st 2012
24
      interesting. Miseducation covered alot of bases
Jun 21st 2012
28
      good call.
Jun 21st 2012
29
      i'd say forced her to PC.
Jun 21st 2012
31
           _she_ has said they wanted her to sex up her image.
Jun 21st 2012
32
                and then _she_ got a perm
Jun 21st 2012
33
                     i'm just repeating what i read from ol' girl.
Jun 21st 2012
34
      i think D was breaking down those barriers as well in his
Jun 22nd 2012
65
      PC, Fear Card, Clown
Jun 23rd 2012
86
Interesting
Jun 21st 2012
25
Chuck = fear. Lupe = clown.
Jun 21st 2012
26
      in what way is Lupe a clown?
Jun 22nd 2012
70
           RE: in what way is Lupe a clown?
Jun 22nd 2012
72
           i suspect he's seen by mainstream as a bit jokey.
Jun 23rd 2012
82
                y'all givin mainstream whitefolx way too much depth
Jun 23rd 2012
88
                     i agree that he's largely unknown.
Jun 24th 2012
95
sig +
Jun 21st 2012
27
What about Stevie Wonder? Prince? Sly Stone?
Jun 21st 2012
47
they were all exotics
Jun 21st 2012
48
      Eh...
Jun 21st 2012
49
           the theory is about black celebs.
Jun 21st 2012
50
                Prince based the most of his thing from Sly
Jun 21st 2012
64
Y not just narrow all that to ''entert biz requirements: be entertaining...
Jun 22nd 2012
68
nigga did you just call B Real white!?!!
Jun 23rd 2012
92
      yea that was the only part that left me looking thata way
Jun 24th 2012
98
you gotta have the songs, talent, charisma and the goods overall
Jun 21st 2012
37
?uestlove theory has nothing on ARRUH though!
Jun 21st 2012
38
clown n/m
Jun 21st 2012
40
Haters can hate meanwhile new album and book next week
Jun 21st 2012
43
      no hate, we celebrating his ability to succeed as a clown n/m
Jun 21st 2012
45
           Black folks i deal with would never call him a clown
Jun 21st 2012
53
an exotic clown.
Jun 21st 2012
42
2 decades of dominance and never lost the crown
Jun 21st 2012
44
      Bozo made millions too.
Jun 21st 2012
46
           its cool you just envious over the dominance of the ARRUH!!!!!
Jun 21st 2012
51
                Sly is a fearsome clown, btw.
Jun 21st 2012
52
                     Sly Stone changed the game
Jun 21st 2012
54
                          Sly >>> R. Kelly.
Jun 21st 2012
55
                               R.Kelly>>Sly fixed it and its close.
Jun 21st 2012
56
                                    let's try:
Jun 21st 2012
57
                                         sad you feel that way about those greats
Jun 21st 2012
58
                                         sad you're incapable of understanding this post.
Jun 21st 2012
59
                                         i'm wasting my time
Jun 21st 2012
60
                                         RE: sad you feel that way about those greats
Jun 23rd 2012
85
                                              RE: sad you feel that way about those greats
Jun 25th 2012
100
                                         Spot on with all those legends
Jun 21st 2012
61
                                              who exactly cares about all of that?
Jun 21st 2012
62
                                                   yes, maxxx.
Jun 21st 2012
63
                                                   lol then why participate in the post?
Jun 22nd 2012
73
                                                        its a dumb thread and Questlove works for the man
Jun 23rd 2012
80
                                                             lol, you still didn't answer the question.
Jun 23rd 2012
87
                                                                  because i'm the only black person who finds this thing a bad joke
Jun 24th 2012
93
RE: ?uestlove theory has nothing on ARRUH though!
Jun 22nd 2012
71
Jun 21st 2012
39
niggers acting like niggers is the surefire way to wealth
Jun 22nd 2012
66
gentlemen allow me to point out theres not ONE female in this post.
Jun 22nd 2012
76
be thankful you can turn off the part of your brain that dissects things...
Jun 22nd 2012
77
^ how can he live vicariously through y'all if you're doing the same
Jun 23rd 2012
83
EXACTLY. nm
Jun 23rd 2012
89
when are you going to stop acting like you're the black Fonzy?
Jun 23rd 2012
84
      thats how you take what i type, lil dude? youre insecure. im not.
Jun 23rd 2012
90
Fishbone
Jun 23rd 2012
79
Yall acting like this is a new revelation
Jun 23rd 2012
81
^^^ truth.com. mfers acting like this shit just came out of nowhere.
Jun 24th 2012
97
      good post.
Jun 25th 2012
101
I Don't Wanna Hear/See Anybody Cry Wolf About White Critics
Jun 23rd 2012
91
so which artists dont fit?
Jun 24th 2012
94
acts who haven't had Pop or crossover success don't fit.
Jun 24th 2012
96
Every black kid under 25 sounds like this to me
Jun 25th 2012
102

15
Member since Mar 01st 2005
9915 posts
Thu Jun-21-12 08:03 AM

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1. "I've narrowed to"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

most black celebs fall under minstrelsy by default


the clown (colorful? humorous? loud? unruly? flamboyant? full of jokes? screams? primitive exotic?)
fear card (gangsta? and all that falls under it? violent silent but deadly cool? badass motherfucka?)
PC (diluted? non opinionated? non boat rocker? take home to mom and dad? fear of losing good standing with supporters because of a political opinion even if said opinion if correct?)
exotic card (mandingo, slut, overtly sexual, primative sexual)


it is literally impossible to be in entertainment as an african american and NOT fall under these. what's crazier is that white entertainers (jagger? most who fall under the "rock and roll!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! banner) are derivative of black entertainers they idolized (em's swag is just the same as jag's persona whom i am beyond certain will tell you the bluesmen of the 30s & 40s were his idols just like pac, kane, and ll were Em's when he was younger. that's why the genius of "Hey Ya" syndrome (and now Nikki) is awesome to me cause now you have black people who are imitating white people who were imitating black people.

there is a sketch from the skar brothers comedy duo in which they do a sketch about cypress hill's dr greenthumb. the bit is about how the skit that closes the song (b real as dr green thumb) they find it hilarious cause its a cuban american pretending to sound like a white american. the irony of course is why is a "european man" who is actually pretending to be black in his persona doing a bad imitation of what he actually is...a white guy.


you really have to read books on minstrel entertainment....shit is deep...i gotta go to a meeting but ill come back and drop gems later

NO! LIST
Tom Petty
M J
Zeppelin
Springsteen
Neil Young
Eagles
Ray Charles
Madonna
Chuck Berry
South Park TV Songs
Justin Timberlake
"Food Glorious Food"
"Twilight Zone" theme
"A Boy Named Sue"
"Night Moves"
"The Situation"
"Superbowl Shuffle"

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Thu Jun-21-12 08:47 AM

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2. "I wouldn't say Em's swag is the same as Jagger's."
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

Em has (had?) an aura of danger about him (even though it often seemed the person he was going to harm the most was himself).

Jagger? Not so much... Keef and Brian Jones were the thugs and self-destructoids in the group while Jagger was the camp pretty boy.

That's the other thing that separates Em from Mick: Camp. Em does not (and cannot) play with the concept of sexuality like Jagger. While Mick came off as omnisexual, Em is pretty much asexual.

Other than that, I agree with your general point about minstrelsy.

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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15
Member since Mar 01st 2005
9915 posts
Thu Jun-21-12 09:01 AM

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3. "the common denominator is"
In response to Reply # 2
Thu Jun-21-12 09:03 AM by 15

  

          

its both derived from black persona. em has nuanced his version more convincingly whereas jaguar (albeit "sincere") still seems more characturish

NO! LIST
Tom Petty
M J
Zeppelin
Springsteen
Neil Young
Eagles
Ray Charles
Madonna
Chuck Berry
South Park TV Songs
Justin Timberlake
"Food Glorious Food"
"Twilight Zone" theme
"A Boy Named Sue"
"Night Moves"
"The Situation"
"Superbowl Shuffle"

  

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The DC Sniper
Member since Apr 13th 2010
2109 posts
Fri Jun-22-12 07:57 PM

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74. "RE: the common denominator is"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

>its both derived from black persona. em has nuanced his
>version more convincingly whereas jaguar (albeit "sincere")
>still seems more characturish

I remember when you interviewed Paul Mooney he said Eminem's blackface without blackface persona is nothing new, it goes back to Amos 'N' Andy

"Capitalism will never fail because socialism will always be there to bail it out." - Ralph Nader

  

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Mageddon
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Thu Jun-21-12 09:10 AM

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4. "Kanye West"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

A pretty unique individual.

Where does he fit in all of this? The clown?

I'm not so sure.

>most black celebs fall under minstrelsy by default
>
>
>the clown (colorful? humorous? loud? unruly? flamboyant? full
>of jokes? screams? primitive exotic?)
>fear card (gangsta? and all that falls under it? violent
>silent but deadly cool? badass motherfucka?)
>PC (diluted? non opinionated? non boat rocker? take home to
>mom and dad? fear of losing good standing with supporters
>because of a political opinion even if said opinion if
>correct?)
>exotic card (mandingo, slut, overtly sexual, primative
>sexual)
>
>
>it is literally impossible to be in entertainment as an
>african american and NOT fall under these. what's crazier is
>that white entertainers (jagger? most who fall under the "rock
>and
>roll!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>banner) are derivative of black entertainers they idolized
>(em's swag is just the same as jag's persona whom i am beyond
>certain will tell you the bluesmen of the 30s & 40s were his
>idols just like pac, kane, and ll were Em's when he was
>younger. that's why the genius of "Hey Ya" syndrome (and now
>Nikki) is awesome to me cause now you have black people who
>are imitating white people who were imitating black people.
>

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Thu Jun-21-12 09:12 AM

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5. "Kanye is interesting because he expresses opinions"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

but ultimately, the way in which he does so makes him a clown.

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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ZooTown74
Member since May 29th 2002
43582 posts
Thu Jun-21-12 09:16 AM

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8. "I think he fits under all except the PC"
In response to Reply # 4
Thu Jun-21-12 09:20 AM by ZooTown74

  

          

Or at least he tries very hard to play the fear and exotic cards

And the combination of the three makes him appear to be "complex"

Because at any time he can "flip" and become one of the personas

This is assuming that there isn't just one correct answer

__________________________________________________________________________
Skrillex.

  

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Errol Walton Barrow
Member since Jul 02nd 2002
6186 posts
Thu Jun-21-12 09:19 AM

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10. "Good one. The closest is clown."
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

But if he was more easily categorised media companies would push him even more than they do. The Black Eyed Peas are in the PC lane so they get pushed hard when they come out.

-------
http://adevotedappraisal.tumblr.com - Essays, reviews, short stories and free writes on music, film and life around us.

  

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Garhart Poppwell
Member since Nov 28th 2008
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Fri Jun-22-12 09:50 AM

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67. "The Clown"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

when he says anything halfway profound it's to draw attention to himself, nothing more

__________________________________________
CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!!
------------------------------------
Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

  

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
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Fri Jun-22-12 11:18 AM

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69. "none, really. Which is why he is so important to the genre"
In response to Reply # 4


          

  

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AlBundy
Member since May 27th 2002
9621 posts
Mon Jun-25-12 02:26 AM

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99. "lol"
In response to Reply # 69


  

          

-------------------------
“The other dude after me didn’t help my case. It was just like…crazy nigga factory going on.”
Dre makes no apologies for his own eccentricities. “I was young, and searching, trying to find myself,” he says. “Never did.”-- Andre B

  

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Otis Oliver Ocean
Member since Feb 02nd 2012
1471 posts
Fri Jun-22-12 11:58 PM

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78. "If blowing up about Britney Spears and interrupting T. Swift ain't"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

some clown shit then I don't know what is. Kanye West STAY on some clown
shit and I don't know how that ain't obvious to ANYbody. Everything this
mofo do is over the fuckin top.

  

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Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
15139 posts
Thu Jun-21-12 09:13 AM

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6. "i tried to think of an exception, all i came up with was... well, "
In response to Reply # 1
Thu Jun-21-12 09:15 AM by Joe Corn Mo

  

          

you. lol
maybe hendrix.


i agree.



>most black celebs fall under minstrelsy by default
>
>
>the clown (colorful? humorous? loud? unruly? flamboyant? full
>of jokes? screams? primitive exotic?)
>fear card (gangsta? and all that falls under it? violent
>silent but deadly cool? badass motherfucka?)
>PC (diluted? non opinionated? non boat rocker? take home to
>mom and dad? fear of losing good standing with supporters
>because of a political opinion even if said opinion if
>correct?)
>exotic card (mandingo, slut, overtly sexual, primative
>sexual)
>
>
>it is literally impossible to be in entertainment as an
>african american and NOT fall under these. what's crazier is
>that white entertainers (jagger? most who fall under the "rock
>and
>roll!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>banner) are derivative of black entertainers they idolized
>(em's swag is just the same as jag's persona whom i am beyond
>certain will tell you the bluesmen of the 30s & 40s were his
>idols just like pac, kane, and ll were Em's when he was
>younger. that's why the genius of "Hey Ya" syndrome (and now
>Nikki) is awesome to me cause now you have black people who
>are imitating white people who were imitating black people.
>
>there is a sketch from the skar brothers comedy duo in which
>they do a sketch about cypress hill's dr greenthumb. the bit
>is about how the skit that closes the song (b real as dr green
>thumb) they find it hilarious cause its a cuban american
>pretending to sound like a white american. the irony of course
>is why is a "european man" who is actually pretending to be
>black in his persona doing a bad imitation of what he
>actually is...a white guy.
>
>
>you really have to read books on minstrel
>entertainment....shit is deep...i gotta go to a meeting but
>ill come back and drop gems later

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Thu Jun-21-12 09:15 AM

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7. "Hendrix was primitive exotic."
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Joe Corn Mo
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Thu Jun-21-12 09:18 AM

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9. "okay, yeah. "
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

does quest fall under that, too?

i always like analyzing the "archetypes" or
"characters" that artists play.

music and movies are my mythology,
so... it pays to study.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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11. "?uest (Fallon era) is PC."
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

And we see what happened when he tried to step out of it with the "Lyin A__ B____" episode

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Joe Corn Mo
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Thu Jun-21-12 09:25 AM

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12. "gotcha. "
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

well, yep.
that's all i've got.

that's pretty sad, actually.

it should be easier to think of some kind of exception.



but it's not.


  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Thu Jun-21-12 09:29 AM

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13. "What about Ice T?"
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

Does he still carry gangsta cred?

If not, it's hard to fit him into any of the other categories...

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
15139 posts
Thu Jun-21-12 09:36 AM

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15. "i think he does. "
In response to Reply # 13


  

          


i mean, if questlove is PC, even though he rocks an Afro and talks
about black heros and black history whenever he gets the chance...


the ice t still fits as a menace, tough as nails, will fuck your shit right up guy
even though he's "mellowed out" so to speak.




and anyway, ice-t was never really the protagonist in his gangster rap records.
he was more like an observer. and he always had a point that went beyond just being
angry. so it's hard to fit people in as just one, a lot of times.


but the reason he still has a job working is because
he looks like he could kick most white people's ass in a fight.


so, yeah... he's a gangster.


>Does he still carry gangsta cred?
>
>If not, it's hard to fit him into any of the other
>categories...

  

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Errol Walton Barrow
Member since Jul 02nd 2002
6186 posts
Thu Jun-21-12 09:37 AM

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16. "Is he PC now? like Ice Cube? "
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

-------
http://adevotedappraisal.tumblr.com - Essays, reviews, short stories and free writes on music, film and life around us.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Thu Jun-21-12 09:48 AM

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18. "Definitely don't see him as PC but"
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

when the guy who scared America with "Cop Killer" is now best known for acting as a cop on TV, starring with his cartoonishly pneumatic white wife in a cutesy reality show on a "gay" channel and then gets sonned by Soulja Boi... I just wonder if he's still considered fearsome.

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Joe Corn Mo
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Thu Jun-21-12 09:56 AM

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20. "now this MAY be a stretch..."
In response to Reply # 18
Thu Jun-21-12 09:59 AM by Joe Corn Mo

  

          

but i think it's kind of like the denzel situation.
people always like to use denzel as proof that there is diversity in hollywood.


but the thing is, and i don't know if this a coincidence or not, but
he's always playing the role of the angry black man.


granted, in most of his movies, it's RIGHTEOUS indignation...
but he's still angry as shit, like... all the time.



with ice-cube, yeah it's family friendly.

but, from what I've seen... he's still angry.
it's anger displayed as irritation...

but it's still anger.



ice-t, when playing a cop on tv... is still angry.



like I said... this one might be a stretch.
I knew it when I was typing it out lol.





>when the guy who scared America with "Cop Killer" is now best
>known for acting as a cop on TV, starring with his
>cartoonishly pneumatic white wife in a cutesy reality show on
>a "gay" channel and then gets sonned by Soulja Boi... I just
>wonder if he's still considered fearsome.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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21. "Hmmm... I see what you mean regarding Denzel"
In response to Reply # 20


  

          

but I think it's a mistake to conflate righteous indignation with "Angry Black Man"... When white America thinks about the ABM, they are not thinking about indignation or even anger, but RAGE--directionless, often illogical and violent rage, like the Hulk or some shit.

The fact that Denzel's characters are able to articulate his anger--and more importantly, devise proactive solutions to his problems--puts him in a different archetype altogether.

But you know who I think is brought up more than Denzel to demonstrate diversity in Hollywood? Samuel Mother Fuckin Jackson, the most employed Hollywood actor of the 1990s. What category does he fall into? Yes, he's generally a BADD MF, but are people really scared of him? It seems people (particularly men) of all races love him for his carefree masculinity and more so for his keep-it-realness and tell-it-like-it-isness.

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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imcvspl
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30. "Not to completely sidetrack but this is really interesting"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

I remember distinctly I think it was around the time of Training Day there was an interview with Denzel about how he took the role as a bad guy because his kids said he always played the good guy. Was it Training Day or was it that other one where he was just kind of the bad guy before it. Whichever you look at his career before that point and his kids were right. But after that, he took on the bad guy role IMHO because *that* was likely to = more mainstream success.
________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
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35. "and he won an oscar for that role."
In response to Reply # 30


  

          

now i didn't immediately call 'cism on that,
because it WAS a great performance.

but like... he'd done great roles before that,
and he didn't get the validation of an oscar until he played the bad guy.


idunno.


i think there is something to that,
but i don't know how much of it is due to racism.

who knows?


i go back and forth as to whether or not this is even a thing,
and at this point, i really don't even care anymore. because we don't need "their" approval.





>I remember distinctly I think it was around the time of
>Training Day there was an interview with Denzel about how he
>took the role as a bad guy because his kids said he always
>played the good guy. Was it Training Day or was it that other
>one where he was just kind of the bad guy before it.
>Whichever you look at his career before that point and his
>kids were right. But after that, he took on the bad guy role
>IMHO because *that* was likely to = more mainstream success.
>________
>Big PEMFin H & z's
>█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
>"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one
>thing, a musician." © Miles Davis
>
>"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."
>
>

  

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howisya
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36. ""they" also like slaves:"
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097441/awards

>now i didn't immediately call 'cism on that,
>because it WAS a great performance.
>
>but like... he'd done great roles before that,
>and he didn't get the validation of an oscar until he played
>the bad guy.
>
>
>idunno.
>
>
>i think there is something to that,
>but i don't know how much of it is due to racism.
>
>who knows?
>
>
>i go back and forth as to whether or not this is even a thing,
>
>and at this point, i really don't even care anymore. because
>we don't need "their" approval.

  

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Errol Walton Barrow
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23. "with cube he's pc, but the gangster is now an artiface "
In response to Reply # 20


  

          

Before you'd think he'd really kill a "cave bitch,"(at least I did) but now he's in a coors commercial shouting at an inanimate can. He's still trafficking that gangsta anger, but now it's de-fanged.

The Denzel one is interesting. He seems to have 'freedom' in hollywood, but that 'righteous indignation anger' observation is a good one.

-------
http://adevotedappraisal.tumblr.com - Essays, reviews, short stories and free writes on music, film and life around us.

  

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Kid Ray
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75. "?uest is PC/Clown The Fro is the star sad to say."
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

I'm sure he gets mistaken for Afroman. I can see YT asking him if did he do the "because I got high" song. I wonder what would happen if he cut it off?

  

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lonesome_d
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41. "Old &.or dead guys"
In response to Reply # 6


          

but that's usually not quite mainstream appeal, only significant niche appeal.

See: John Hurt & cohorts in the '60s, Muddy Waters in the '70s, BB King in the '80s, Ted Hawkins on the '90s.

Can be seen as a subgenre of the exotic label, but it's not exactly that.

-------
so I'm in a band now:
album ---> http://greenwoodburns.bandcamp.com/releases
Soundcloud ---> http://soundcloud.com/greenwood-burns

my own stuff -->http://soundcloud.com/lonesomedstringband

avy by buckshot_defunct

  

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Errol Walton Barrow
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14. "so which white musicians are allowed to 'be themselves'?"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          


Are you saying that because whites aren't forced into the strictures of fear/PC/Clown/exotic that they can develop more organic expression and get it pushed like, say, grunge/disaffection in the 90s? So failed black sub-genres are because they didn't fit into the four slots?

-------
http://adevotedappraisal.tumblr.com - Essays, reviews, short stories and free writes on music, film and life around us.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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17. "Dave Grohl."
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Errol Walton Barrow
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19. "Good call. That guy gets on the Grammys and stuff."
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

Wait...was Lauryn on her way to breaking these narrow categorisations? Presuming she still kept dropping hits?

-------
http://adevotedappraisal.tumblr.com - Essays, reviews, short stories and free writes on music, film and life around us.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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22. "Nah. Lauryn was too angry, shrill and humorless."
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

Remember that at the height of her mainstream popularity, it was widely believed that she had said she'd rather her babies starve than for white people to buy her records.

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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SoWhat
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24. "she wanted to play the fear card. ppl forced her to play the exotic."
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

which seems to have influenced her w/drawal from the recording biz.

fuck you.

  

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Errol Walton Barrow
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28. "interesting. Miseducation covered alot of bases"
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

but yeah, matola and the media companies saw more money with her as an exotic.

-------
http://adevotedappraisal.tumblr.com - Essays, reviews, short stories and free writes on music, film and life around us.

  

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Joe Corn Mo
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29. "good call. "
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

>which seems to have influenced her w/drawal from the
>recording biz.

  

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imcvspl
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31. "i'd say forced her to PC."
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

Not sure exactly what was exotic about Lauryn unless just being boho makes you exotic. That's like saying 15 is the exotic because he refuses to cut his hair.
________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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SoWhat
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32. "_she_ has said they wanted her to sex up her image."
In response to Reply # 31


  

          

*shrugs*

fuck you.

  

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imcvspl
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33. "and then _she_ got a perm"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

i mean i see what you mean, but every female artist gets a stylist to give em sex appeal.
________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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SoWhat
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34. "i'm just repeating what i read from ol' girl."
In response to Reply # 33


  

          

*shrugs*

fuck you.

  

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CB_010
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65. "i think D was breaking down those barriers as well in his"
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

Brown Suger era.
or was he in the *deadly cool badass muhfuk* section?
with the untitled vid he obviously became the mandingo/exotic..

but BS tho?

___________________________
http://www.soundcloud.com/cb010
https://soundcloud.com/kofitheunkn0wn

  

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Jon
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86. "PC, Fear Card, Clown"
In response to Reply # 17


          

  

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Eddy
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25. "Interesting"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

I'm definitely going to get reading more on minstrel entertainment.
a couple more questions...

1. How do somewhat political rappers (who have achieved mainstream success) fit in? e.g. Public Enemy (Flava Flav obviously = the clown, but what about Chuck D?), also for a more modern example, what about Lupe? You could call him PC, but then he also has lyrics that criticise and critique dominant sociopolitical systems (american terrorist etc), so would he still fit into a catergory?

2. Leading on from this, how do these categories interact with the 'conscious'/'underground' artist? Is writing music with a message (/engaging with a particular topic and provoking debate) compatible with mainstream success? Does an 'underground' MC have more freedom to explore different (often ignored, e.g. some socio-political areas, philosophical questioning, etc) topics than someone in the mainstream would? (and is an engagement in such topics incompatible with significant commercial success?

  

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SoWhat
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26. "Chuck = fear. Lupe = clown."
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

fuck you.

  

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kayru99
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70. "in what way is Lupe a clown?"
In response to Reply # 26


          

  

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Dr_Gonzo
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72. "RE: in what way is Lupe a clown?"
In response to Reply # 70


  

          

I'm curious about this one too. Niggas on this site might be annoyed at some of the shit he's said, but he doesn't fit the clown image at all.

  

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SoWhat
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82. "i suspect he's seen by mainstream as a bit jokey. "
In response to Reply # 70


  

          

also maybe PC, in that he's relatively non-threatening to the mainstream. he's no Dead Prez. but i think even they were seen as clowns, in a way. b/c they were so over the top w/it.

so yeah, i think w/in the mainstream music biz, Lupe = PC clown.

fuck you.

  

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kayru99
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88. "y'all givin mainstream whitefolx way too much depth"
In response to Reply # 82


          

I suspect to a good chunk of middle america, lupe is unknown or (at best) that dude with the cool skateboarding song.

But I will admit I have real problems with the initial premise of this post

  

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SoWhat
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95. "i agree that he's largely unknown."
In response to Reply # 88


  

          

and those that know him casually i suspect see him as what ? has labeled a PC act or a clown act.

fuck you.

  

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imcvspl
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27. "sig +"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

mainstream success = acceptable in white households right?

things like this always disturb me, because it passively shapes the future. meaning doing music is about succeeding, not about what makes one fall in love with music in the first place. it's how we get to a place where people who never fell in love with it are finding success and conversely people that fell in love find new love in success.

i know mainstream success is not the only goal out there, but when we pin our black artists into these valuation bases, is there any wonder why we hate their new oontz phase?
________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Jakob Hellberg
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47. "What about Stevie Wonder? Prince? Sly Stone?"
In response to Reply # 1


          

All popular with white people in their prime. Maybe Stevie falls under the PC umbrella but I don't really think that fits.

  

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imcvspl
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48. "they were all exotics"
In response to Reply # 47


  

          

child prodigy
young one man band
eclectic funkster
________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Jakob Hellberg
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49. "Eh..."
In response to Reply # 48


          

This seems very arbitrary to me. Do you mean that because they were black *and* these things, they were exotic? Or do you mean these things are exotic in themselves? Who are the successful white acts that don't fall into some predetermined categories?

  

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SoWhat
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50. "the theory is about black celebs."
In response to Reply # 49
Thu Jun-21-12 01:30 PM by SoWhat

  

          

so white ones don't factor.

also:

Prince is 'exotic' b/c his music and imagery are/were overtly (overly?) sexual. plus he's kind of a freak of nature w/the multi-instrument thing.

i'd say Sly fits in the fear and clown categories. fear b/c of the drug use and the Riot album and songs like 'Don't Call Me Nigger Whitey'. clown b/c of the flamboyant stylings in his dress and stage show.

Stevie is more PC to me than exotic. having seen his concerts in recent yrs i noticed he has an audience that spans age, sex and race. i've rarely seen such a broad cross section of ppl at a concert. his music is mostly inoffensive and is pretty acceptable to everyone. if he's exotic it's about the multi-instrumentalist thing.

fuck you.

  

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mistermaxxx08
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64. "Prince based the most of his thing from Sly"
In response to Reply # 50


          

and Sly is a One Man band himself and into concepts etc..

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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Jon
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68. "Y not just narrow all that to ''entert biz requirements: be entertaining..."
In response to Reply # 1


          

  

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astralblak
Member since Apr 05th 2007
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Sat Jun-23-12 06:35 PM

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92. "nigga did you just call B Real white!?!!"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

lol. Blacks folks kill with grouping other non-Black people of color with white people. Aint no one in their right mind confusing B Real with a white man. his blood like most of Latin America is Indigenous, African and European Colonizer... good grief

and yes i get the point of the layers of minstrelsy within contemporary America

  

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southphillyman
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98. "yea that was the only part that left me looking thata way"
In response to Reply # 92


  

          

dude grew up in south central
not to mention all cubans aren't white

~~~~~~

  

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mistermaxxx08
Member since Dec 31st 2010
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37. "you gotta have the songs, talent, charisma and the goods overall"
In response to Reply # 0


          

the music industry is different than the film industry, you gotta truly have the skills or connect

Hip hop and that cross over is different now than 10 and 20 years ago, still you gotta have the songs, connect with the audience and have charisma and the other things have to fall into place.

of course white acts get a pass unless they don't play ball

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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mistermaxxx08
Member since Dec 31st 2010
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38. " ?uestlove theory has nothing on ARRUH though!"
In response to Reply # 0


          

he can't explain that domiance which is strickly on the music for 2 decades

and this type of generalizing is limited because so many factors have to happen and to take place period.

its too naked to just say this or that.

he can't speak on R.kelly because Kellz just got the songs, talent and charisma which folks feel period

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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40. "clown n/m"
In response to Reply # 38


  

          


________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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mistermaxxx08
Member since Dec 31st 2010
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43. "Haters can hate meanwhile new album and book next week"
In response to Reply # 40


          

as to being Willie Tyler aka Questlove pulling Lester's strings aka D'angelo.


Kellz stays on the scene, while haters stay with gritting teeth and frowns on there faces

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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45. "no hate, we celebrating his ability to succeed as a clown n/m"
In response to Reply # 43


  

          


________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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mistermaxxx08
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53. "Black folks i deal with would never call him a clown"
In response to Reply # 45


          

because he has worked extremely hard and put in much work to reach a level of success that so few have managed.

last time i checked Questlove was playing behind him and not in front of him we know who the Superstar is. Nuff Said.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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SoWhat
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42. "an exotic clown."
In response to Reply # 38


  

          

fuck you.

  

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mistermaxxx08
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44. "2 decades of dominance and never lost the crown "
In response to Reply # 42


          

that ain't no tears of a clown, that is a Winner with Jewelry!!

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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SoWhat
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46. "Bozo made millions too."
In response to Reply # 44


  

          

it's all good.

fuck you.

  

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mistermaxxx08
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51. "its cool you just envious over the dominance of the ARRUH!!!!!"
In response to Reply # 46


          

i mean he stomps over your favorite and has been running things for the longest time, i understand the hate, because greatness either makes you jump on board or you stay in hate mode, i gets it.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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SoWhat
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52. "Sly is a fearsome clown, btw."
In response to Reply # 51
Thu Jun-21-12 01:32 PM by SoWhat

  

          

and i love his work.

this ain't about hatred, homeskillet.

fuck you.

  

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mistermaxxx08
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54. "Sly Stone changed the game"
In response to Reply # 52


          

his personal demons or whatever he is dealing with, has nothing to do with his musical greatness and that is where we differ, because i seperate the art from the man.

if the talent and the songs ain't their then i can't defend you its that simple, Sly is timeless as is R.Kelly.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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SoWhat
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55. "Sly >>> R. Kelly."
In response to Reply # 54


  

          

absolutely.

i'm not sure you can read, so maybe you don't understand that ?uest has theorized that the Man is the one stuffing Black entertainers into the categories ?uest has identified. we're just figuring out where various Black celebs would be placed under the theory. the labels themselves don't represent value judgments about the acts or their work. so the 'clown' thing ain't a diss to Sly or Kellz.

fuck you.

  

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mistermaxxx08
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56. "R.Kelly>>Sly fixed it and its close."
In response to Reply # 55


          

Quest don't know he just throwing that out their as usual.

can Quest speak for Sam COoke? No

can He speak for Jackie Wilson? no

can he speak for Sammy Davis Jr, nat King cole,Louis Armstrong??? No

James Brown? No Ottis Redding? Little Richard?

Questlove can't speak for the ground breaking Genius of Ray Charles a musician with no limits and he didn't stop doing what he did.

you see unless you have been on that level how would you know exactly?

Ray Charles shuts down his theory wide shut.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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SoWhat
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57. "let's try:"
In response to Reply # 56


  

          

the clown (colorful? humorous? loud? unruly? flamboyant? full of jokes? screams? primitive exotic?)
fear card (gangsta? and all that falls under it? violent silent but deadly cool? badass motherfucka?)
PC (diluted? non opinionated? non boat rocker? take home to mom and dad? fear of losing good standing with supporters because of a political opinion even if said opinion if correct?)
exotic card (mandingo, slut, overtly sexual, primative sexual)



>can Quest speak for Sam COoke? PC.
>
>can He speak for Jackie Wilson? PC.
>
>can he speak for Sammy Davis Jr. clown.


>nat King cole PC w/a tinge of fear.


,Louis
>Armstrong??? clown


>James Brown? fearful clown. but mostly clown.


>No Ottis Redding? exotic clown.

>Little Richard? fearful clown. but mostly clown.

>Ray
>Charles fearful clown. but mostly clown.

fuck you.

  

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mistermaxxx08
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58. "sad you feel that way about those greats"
In response to Reply # 57


          

they gave their lives, blood,sweat and tears for their craft and touched so many souls.

who is pure again without speculation? chew on that for a second because Black acts just want to be heard and accepted like others.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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SoWhat
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59. "sad you're incapable of understanding this post."
In response to Reply # 58


  

          

sad but also funny. but mostly sad.

fuck you.

  

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imcvspl
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60. "i'm wasting my time"
In response to Reply # 58


  

          

but this isn't about who the artists actually are but how they are portrayed / perceived. we aren't calling them clowns, we're saying that's the perception that led to their success.

________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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daTopRamen
Member since May 05th 2011
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Sat Jun-23-12 11:42 AM

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85. "RE: sad you feel that way about those greats"
In response to Reply # 58


          

>they gave their lives, blood,sweat and tears for their
>craft and touched so many souls.
>
>who is pure again without speculation? chew on that for a
>second because Black acts just want to be heard and accepted
>like others.


this right here...

what about Curtis Mayfield, or Marvin Gaye?

  

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AlBundy
Member since May 27th 2002
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100. "RE: sad you feel that way about those greats"
In response to Reply # 85


  

          


>what about Curtis Mayfield, or Marvin Gaye?

PC, exotic fear card


-------------------------
“The other dude after me didn’t help my case. It was just like…crazy nigga factory going on.”
Dre makes no apologies for his own eccentricities. “I was young, and searching, trying to find myself,” he says. “Never did.”-- Andre B

  

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Errol Walton Barrow
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61. "Spot on with all those legends"
In response to Reply # 57


  

          

It's funny how in real life most of them were womanising drug abusers but were so competently marketed as PCs and Clowns.

-------
http://adevotedappraisal.tumblr.com - Essays, reviews, short stories and free writes on music, film and life around us.

  

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mistermaxxx08
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62. "who exactly cares about all of that?"
In response to Reply # 61


          

its about the music and the bottom line that other stuff doesn't count or matter we love the music period.

sitting their talking about them outside of there work has no place really.

Ray Charles is arguably america's greatest musical ambassdor with all the styles he conquered and what his work meant to so many and thats all that matters at the end of the day period.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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SoWhat
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63. "yes, maxxx."
In response to Reply # 62


  

          

fuck you.

  

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Ketchums
Member since Jan 30th 2005
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73. "lol then why participate in the post?"
In response to Reply # 62


  

          

>sitting their talking about them outside of there work has no
>place really.

The point of this post is talking about them outside of their work, and about whites' perception of them. This post is talking about more than their work, so if you don't want to talk about them outside of their work, why participate?

----

https://weketchum.contently.com/

  

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mistermaxxx08
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80. "its a dumb thread and Questlove works for the man"
In response to Reply # 73


          

and plays ball in the system and he knows the rules so its phony corny contradiction.

if dude got a problem then sell insurance or own a car wash, however folks pay good earn money to be entertain and enjoy said artist and act

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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Ketchums
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87. "lol, you still didn't answer the question."
In response to Reply # 80


  

          

If it's such a dumb post, then why are you responding in it?

----

https://weketchum.contently.com/

  

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mistermaxxx08
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93. "because i'm the only black person who finds this thing a bad joke"
In response to Reply # 87


          

and Questlove ain't exactly have a Billy Preston career with doing sides and his own career to be talking about what a successful Black Mainstream artist is again.

The Roots are a good act, never going to be seen as a Great act and never made a dent with their own music and its not like he is on some Billy preston tip of having monster hits as a act and then hitting with other big acts and having that kinda lane,

he might have an interesting topic, however he ain't that Black Artist to be speaking on Successful Black Mainstream acts like that iMO.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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Dr_Gonzo
Member since Feb 07th 2007
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71. "RE: ?uestlove theory has nothing on ARRUH though!"
In response to Reply # 38


  

          

Most R&B singers automatically fall under exotic. And after that Trapped in a Closet shit (along with a lot of the songs he did right around 2000) he's not getting away from the clown image.

  

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Reuben
Member since Mar 13th 2006
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39. ""
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

_______________________________________
When discourse of Blackness is not connected to efforts to promote collective black self determinism
it becomes simply another recourse appropriated by the colonizer

http://hardboiledbabesanddarkchocolate.tumblr.co

  

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Garhart Poppwell
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66. "niggers acting like niggers is the surefire way to wealth"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

we know this

__________________________________________
CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!!
------------------------------------
Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

  

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Binlahab
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76. "gentlemen allow me to point out theres not ONE female in this post."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

not one.

also...its a friday night & you dorks are inside on the computer discussing which slot your fav celeb fits into like your putting a team together on gatdamn final fantasy 13: aardvarks revenge.

how abt you leave the deconstruction to the academics & just listen to the music & STFU?

thanks


do or die

  

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Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
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77. "be thankful you can turn off the part of your brain that dissects things..."
In response to Reply # 76


  

          

>how abt you leave the deconstruction to the academics & just
>listen to the music & STFU?
>

  

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SoWhat
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83. "^ how can he live vicariously through y'all if you're doing the same"
In response to Reply # 76


  

          

thing he's doing???

fuck you.

  

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Binlahab
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89. "EXACTLY. nm"
In response to Reply # 83


  

          


do or die

  

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rdhull
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84. "when are you going to stop acting like you're the black Fonzy?"
In response to Reply # 76


  

          


YOU ARE THE NIGGA OF THE YEAR FOR GETTING ALL THEM BAD ASS MOTHERFUCKERS ON STAGE!!!-Supablak regarding 2uestlove Bonnarro D setup

  

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Binlahab
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90. "thats how you take what i type, lil dude? youre insecure. im not."
In response to Reply # 84


  

          

ill take that compliment

A! *thumbs up* - fonzie


do or die

  

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Buck
Member since Feb 15th 2005
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Sat Jun-23-12 12:02 AM

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79. "Fishbone"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

This post makes me think of Fishbone.

  

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Musa
Member since Mar 08th 2006
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81. "Yall acting like this is a new revelation"
In response to Reply # 0
Sat Jun-23-12 06:36 AM by Musa

  

          

Before Hollywood was created black stereotypical lanes were created by white folks in black face "minsterel" You have the

Coon= laughing joking trickster nonthreatning

Black buc= threatening thug over sexed guy loves white women

Uncle Tom= loves everyone but himself idolizes white folk

Sambo/picanniny= wild out of control, filthy children who never seem to have parental.guidance, always in trouble.

Tragic Mulatto= not quite white or black in both worlds and suffering from seeking acceptance from white folk.

Jezebel= the super freak down to fuck, suck where ever, when ever, she loves to ruin the lives of men, especially married ones.

<----

Soundcloud.com/aquil84

(HIP HOP)
http://aquil.bandcamp.com

  

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poetx
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97. "^^^ truth.com. mfers acting like this shit just came out of nowhere. "
In response to Reply # 81


  

          

america has prolly profited off of black people's cultural enslavement as physical enslavement given how central appropriations of black culture are to what is commodified, consumed and exported as american culture.

as sowhat was trying to explain to max, this isn't (necessarily) a judgment on the artists themselves (although many, many have quite consciously played into these archetypes which are really stereotypes). white america, several centuries deep into the game, still has a limited lens through which they view (and relate to) black folks.

i would posit another category, the 'artiste/auteur', who is just so creative or excellent that he or she is taken on their own terms. but even with those types, there's often some reduction going on.


>Before Hollywood was created black stereotypical lanes were
>created by white folks in black face "minsterel"

what's interesting is that in black/african culture we had many of these archetypes, and they pervaded our musical and oral traditions.

in irony of ironies, 'minstrelsy' was actually white folks imitating black folks who were... wait for it... imitating WHITE FOLKS. a lot of the songs and dances that black folks created were actually lampooning white slave masters. white folks observing this, but not in on the joke, codified it as minstrelsy and created a genre of american popular culture which was, in essence, making fun of niggas who were making fun of them.

there's a pretty straight line from minstrelsy to vaudeville to modern american entertainment (just as we can draw the lines from the musical genres which paralleled them).

>
>Coon= laughing joking trickster nonthreatning

in especially west african folk tales / oral tradition, these were generally represented by animals. anansi, etc. the thing is, in the black tradition, there was generally a respect for the character who got by on his wits. this is where bugs bunny, woody woodpecker, etc. and all the archetypes that came from those actually originated.

>
>Black buc= threatening thug over sexed guy loves white women

the badass. in black culture, stagger lee / stack-o-lee, etc. (listen to some oooold blues records for references). the archetypical badass. the gangster. that character has roots that go back across the atlantic, certainly, but within black culture it took on more significance for a people that were powerless, de jure and de facto. there's nuance here -- it can go to pure gangsta, or be incarnated as the nickel-slick hustla, and even be clowned out as in the over the top and general extraness of pimps.

from a yt perspective, the buck/badass serves a couple of purposes.
1) it serves the societal purpose of furthering fear, which engenders the fucked up laws and enforcement and institutional racism. in so doing, it also provides a foil to keep white women in check (careful, them niggers would just LOVE to get a hold of you. you better stay ensconced in this here safe patriarchy). and it provides a very convenient other to keep the white working class distracted from the landed and wealthy class that really runs shit.

2) it allows them to vicariously work out they sick love/hate shit. ie, i won't hire you at my company, but i've heard you all got big dicks, and if ain't nobody know i'd let you fuck my wife type shit. not painting all white folks with that brush, but there are a LOT of cats on that shit. and look at the way that comments break on sports sites regarding black athletes (basketball and football, at least). the pros be waaay uncomfortable and the cons be on some other shit, too. there is most decidedly a market out there for big, fast, muscley, runny, jumpy black motherfuckers. you could easily parallel this poast through sport and see a LOT of the same categories emerge, with the archetype/stereotype being largely predictive of a black athlete's media perception and level of fan acceptance.

>
>Uncle Tom= loves everyone but himself idolizes white folk

sellouts. this one can be problematic, in group, because the label can be thrown about unfairly. but there are undoubtedly some uncle clarence type niggas out there who are eating based off of directly catering to white fantasies and stereotypes in a way that is demeaning to their own. (which really is a nonsense statement because i'd wager these artists don't see themselves, ultimately, as 'black', but rather see 'black' and yt perceptions of blackness, whatever those may be, as something to be exploited for maximum benefit).

i used to lump west coast cats into this bucket (instead of in the black buck/thug category) back during the rise of gangsta rap. it has taken me years to unpack that. yeah, there was hella east coast bias (and out and out hatingness) involved. and maybe being in college at that time had a lot to do with it, because i'm hearing nwa blasting out of white frat houses an shit, and seeing moves that record companies were making. but, at least originally, on the supply side, muhfuckas wasn't worrying about how the music was being consumed. they were eating, and getting paid to put it down they way they did around their way.

marketing and consumption were altogether different matters, though, and that gets precisely to the points ?uest was making. that exists to some extent, outside of the artists themselves. that's been going on forever, but some artists are more cognizant of the game and therefore cater intentionally to these archetypal niches as a success strategy.

before i get a bunch of 'not me' replies from a buncha down ass white boys who were feeling that real shit, i'm not talking about y'all. i'm talking about the large numbers who were copping records because it was like audio bungee jumping.


>
>Sambo/picanniny= wild out of control, filthy children who
>never seem to have parental.guidance, always in trouble.
>
>Tragic Mulatto= not quite white or black in both worlds and
>suffering from seeking acceptance from white folk.

ie, Why Was Monster's Ball Oscar Worthy for $1,000, Alex? (this one and the last one).

>Jezebel= the super freak down to fuck, suck where ever, when
>ever, she loves to ruin the lives of men, especially married
>ones.



peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
** i move away from the mic to breathe in

  

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lonesome_d
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Mon Jun-25-12 09:04 AM

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101. "good post."
In response to Reply # 97


          

-------
so I'm in a band now:
album ---> http://greenwoodburns.bandcamp.com/releases
Soundcloud ---> http://soundcloud.com/greenwood-burns

my own stuff -->http://soundcloud.com/lonesomedstringband

avy by buckshot_defunct

  

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Harlepolis
Member since Jan 09th 2011
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Sat Jun-23-12 05:52 PM

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91. "I Don't Wanna Hear/See Anybody Cry Wolf About White Critics"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Trying to label black artists after reading this shit.

SMH.

  

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GumDrops
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Sun Jun-24-12 05:38 AM

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94. "so which artists dont fit?"
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i dont think bill withers fits here

nor minnie ripperton

  

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SoWhat
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Sun Jun-24-12 08:49 AM

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96. "acts who haven't had Pop or crossover success don't fit."
In response to Reply # 94


  

          

Withers is PC, to the extent he crossed over.

i dunno that Minnie crossed over. it think she was a bit of a 1-hit wonder to mainstream (white) America. they probably only know 'Lovin You'. that song is pretty PC, i think.

fuck you.

  

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OldPro
Member since Dec 10th 2002
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Mon Jun-25-12 11:47 AM

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102. "Every black kid under 25 sounds like this to me"
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"that's why the genius of "Hey Ya" syndrome (and now Nikki) is awesome to me cause now you have black people who are imitating white people who were imitating black people."

This just described the entire 106 & Park audience
_________________________________
Reunion Radio Podcasts
http://reunionradio.blogspot.com/

Twitter @therealoldpro

  

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