"lets discuss "flow"" Mon Apr-02-12 09:53 AM by ABROCK33
in his book "theirs a god on the mic" Kool Moe D said that Rakims main impact was his "flow"
I never thought about it quite like that but of the top of my head I cant recall MC's really "flowing" before him
before that rhymes were more nursery rhyme ish or stop and go
since then it seems that flow has become more central to an MC than the actual lyrics
the mc's we know consider great are the ones that flow ex..Em, ludicris, Redman, Lauren, Meth to name a few. Even in todays generation Lil Wayne "flows"
so my question is how integral is flow to MCing?
can an MC be really great w/o flow?
how is it that Jay Z is widely considered the best MC but he doesn't really flow?
-------------------- "Good hair"-Uzi
1619 the 1st slaves are brought to American shores thus begins the phrase “mine is better than yours?” (huh?) forced to serve-too broke to by freedom the systematic rape of African culture has begun little time
>how is it that Jay Z is widely considered the best MC but he >doesn't really flow?
Hell, flow is Jay-Z's BIGGEST weapon. It's why those 'Niggas in Paris' reduxes that have come out from stumble on the first verse.
It's just a natural extension and where the 'musicality' of MC'ing take over..the give and take over the vocal syncopation over the beat...the art EVOLVED at that moment in time...it was akin to rock bands switching to electric guitars from acoustic.
4. "I dont consider JZ a tradtional flower..my opnion" In response to Reply # 3
JZ isnt the meat of this post tho
I didnt want to turn this into a JZ post its more about flow
ill let the discusion go where it will tho
-------------------- "Good hair"-Uzi
1619 the 1st slaves are brought to American shores thus begins the phrase “mine is better than yours?” (huh?) forced to serve-too broke to by freedom the systematic rape of African culture has begun little time
6. "RE: so who is a "traditional flower" in your opinion? " In response to Reply # 5
ludicris, Redman, Lauren, Meth, treach,
BDK when he got on his "rolls"
-------------------- "Good hair"-Uzi
1619 the 1st slaves are brought to American shores thus begins the phrase “mine is better than yours?” (huh?) forced to serve-too broke to by freedom the systematic rape of African culture has begun little time
8. "it sounds like you're looking at "flow" very narrowly.. " In response to Reply # 0
imo, it's not "do you have flow or not?".. it's not so singular... it's more that *everyone* has a flow.. just depends which ones you like better.. which ones sound the coolest over a track... which flows are the most creative.. which flows stand out.. which ones sound most fluid.. who's got the most intricate way of doing it.. there's a lot to analyze about flows more than "he flows and this other dude doesn't"... it's like talking... everyone does it and everyone has their own cadence.. some sound better than others..
.. i think the comment about Rakim was more that he dragged mofos out of that cave Plato was talking about.. he let ppl see that there were sooooo many more possibilities than that older way of flowing.. and some ppl have really taken that idea above and beyond..
i think rhyme schemes also go a lot into flow... granted, you can flow really well w/o complex rhyme schemes.. but i think the rhymes can dictate a lot of how the flows come off - a cool flow by itself is "style", complex rhyme schemes are "substance".. and when you marry the 2, it results in some crazy shit..
9. "to clarify you are correct..all MC's have a flow" In response to Reply # 8
their style is dictated by their breath patterns and control
some MC's have more "flow" and are more fluid than others
pre Rakim MC's wernt concerned about flowing OVER the beat they just aggresivly said/rhymed their words over the beat
thats a big diffrence to me
-------------------- "Good hair"-Uzi
1619 the 1st slaves are brought to American shores thus begins the phrase “mine is better than yours?” (huh?) forced to serve-too broke to by freedom the systematic rape of African culture has begun little time
10. "have you heard "The Message"?" In response to Reply # 9
some of the flows on that still are up there in quality. Obviously not the first verse, but the other verses, kicked off when Mellie Mel starts off with: "looking out the window....crazy lady, living in a bag...."
11. "RE: have you heard "The Message"?" In response to Reply # 10
their are parts that flowed
but for the most part hip mc's wern't as composed about the aspect of flow as they were on getting their point across
this is a general statement obviously which is addressing the overall climate of hip hop rathar than isolated incidents of individuals, songs or parts of songs
BTW I am restateing Moe D's statement. I don't know how we can really argue it he was there and a participant through all 3 eras
-------------------- "Good hair"-Uzi
1619 the 1st slaves are brought to American shores thus begins the phrase “mine is better than yours?” (huh?) forced to serve-too broke to by freedom the systematic rape of African culture has begun little time
12. "Flow makes or breaks an MC to me" In response to Reply # 0
>can an MC be really great w/o flow?
Flow is 100% necessary, lyrics are just a bonus. Case in point: Talib. Sure, dude has some lines, but his flow on a lot of his songs = shit, and that makes him unlistenable for me
51. "yeah his flow is terrible" In response to Reply # 12
------------------------- “The other dude after me didn’t help my case. It was just like…crazy nigga factory going on.” Dre makes no apologies for his own eccentricities. “I was young, and searching, trying to find myself,” he says. “Never did.”-- Andre B
16. "Don't know where you get off saying Jay-z doesn't flow" In response to Reply # 0
but that kind of belabors the point...another discussion for another time
Flow is like playing an instrument, syncopation, rhythm, and expression all make flow musically unique. True Every MC has a flow, but not Every MC has a good/palatable flow. Its like saying, everyone can strum a guitar and make noise, but not everyone can play the star spangled banner at woodstock, ya know?
17. "The reason this is getting derailed on the Jay-Z flow topic is because" In response to Reply # 0
flow is something that is pretty subjective...but some MC's are almost universally considered to have great flow. Jay-Z, if anything, gets over moreso on flow than he does actual content. If you're gonna start the conversation by saying that Jay can't flow but is considered to be the greatest (and there is way more consensus on the fact that Jay can flow than on him being the greatest) then the entire discussion is flawed. People are confused because you must have some different definition of what "flow" is.
It's like if you start a conversation about great dunkers in the NBA, but then say something about Dominique like "Nique made a lot of highlights but he wasn't a great dunker", people are gonna be confused.
By the way, anyone thinking that Jay doesn't have flow needs to go listen to Hovi Baby right now.
19. "The reason Jay-Z is critical to the discussion (not what you stated)" In response to Reply # 0
is because he admittedly dumbed down his flow to become more successful. The art of flow has been downhill ever sense. When success != being at the top of your flow game, MCing loses.
He also started the horrible trend of rappers thinking they didn't need to write. Writing is the key way one continues to develop flow, cousin to ciphering (another dead art).
The kinda ill thing about it though is that by doing this Jay basically made a coup on the throne, because he was able to set the bar for greatness beneath his level, and ensure that there were a crop of Bleek's beneath him to raise his status. And by crop of bleeks I mean every other rapper not named Bleek that can't hold a candle to Jay as much as they slob his knob to feel better about themselves as MC's.
The Nas battle pretty much sealed the deal, where he could walk away from the L more popular than ever, being on top without having to actually beat a "better" MC (better in quotes because it's debatable despite what I'm saying).
>is because he admittedly dumbed down his flow to become more >successful. The art of flow has been downhill ever sense. >When success != being at the top of your flow game, MCing >loses.
Except he didn't say he dumbed down his flow. He's more referring to his lyrics, as can reasonably be inferred from his following line: "If skills sold truth be told, I'd probably be, *lyrically* Talib Kweli"
Jay's flow and ability to switch flows is one of his strengths as an artist.
25. "I don't know if he's ever been lazy with flow though" In response to Reply # 21 Tue Apr-03-12 08:32 AM by BigReg
>And for the record I'm not saying his dumbed down flow isn't >good. It has it's ups and downs. There are sometimes he gets >really lazy with it, but he often throws in a run or two just >to let you know he has it. Rarely much over that though.
Even in his mediocre periods (every other album) he still shows flashes of brilliance. I agree with the above poster where LYRICALLY Jay-Z fails (and more and more often as he ages). Watch The Throne is a great example; he's flowing his ass off and laps Kanye several times over...but no one would say that he was clearly better then Kanye when you look at his entire performance (in fact, I think most would say Kanye came out on top)
22. "I regret even mentioning Jay-Z" In response to Reply # 0
not because I am in the minority in my assesment of him as an MC but because the mere mention of his name changed the course of converstion
Ive learned my lesson
-------------------- "Good hair"-Uzi
1619 the 1st slaves are brought to American shores thus begins the phrase “mine is better than yours?” (huh?) forced to serve-too broke to by freedom the systematic rape of African culture has begun little time
24. "Kool Moe D quote about Rakims impact on flow" In response to Reply # 0
Theres a god on the mic pg 324-325
"Rakim is the author of flow. Before him there was no such thing as flow. While he didnt invent the word, the importance of how you said your rhyme and it being defined as flow started with Rakim"
-------------------- "Good hair"-Uzi
1619 the 1st slaves are brought to American shores thus begins the phrase “mine is better than yours?” (huh?) forced to serve-too broke to by freedom the systematic rape of African culture has begun little time
26. "which is why he's at the top of Goat Mountain still" In response to Reply # 24
his impact on lyricism is a great as his impact on flow Mele Mel aside, you can't really say that about anyone else
__________________________________________ CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!! ------------------------------------ Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this
every MC AFTER Rakim is still in his mold. They are variants of the prototype that for the most part he perfected.
-------------------- "Good hair"-Uzi
1619 the 1st slaves are brought to American shores thus begins the phrase “mine is better than yours?” (huh?) forced to serve-too broke to by freedom the systematic rape of African culture has begun little time
40. "its hip hop we cant constructivly criticize the elders" In response to Reply # 39
its taboo
-------------------- "Good hair"-Uzi
1619 the 1st slaves are brought to American shores thus begins the phrase “mine is better than yours?” (huh?) forced to serve-too broke to by freedom the systematic rape of African culture has begun little time
42. "oh stop with that bullshit." In response to Reply # 40
how is "dude couldn't flow for shit" 'constructive criticism'?
don't be ridiculous. He put it put there, and I responded to it.
"Chuck might not have been as lyrical as Rakim, but he had other skills that come into play". THAT'S constructive criticism.
If a teacher told you "you can't read for shit", would that lead you to believe you were a good student? Would you see that as constructive criticism? I don't think you would.
44. "Sensitive Steven misses sarcasm" In response to Reply # 42
.
-------------------- "Good hair"-Uzi
1619 the 1st slaves are brought to American shores thus begins the phrase “mine is better than yours?” (huh?) forced to serve-too broke to by freedom the systematic rape of African culture has begun little time
I acknowledge that you made other comments giving him his due, and I DO get your point, but you can't take that as anything BUT a bit of a diss, right?
45. "agree flowing wasnt Chucks strength" In response to Reply # 43 Tue Apr-03-12 05:48 PM by ABROCK33
I'm sure even he would admit it
he had a weakness so what, its no biggie tho
his strengths (voice, message) MORE than compensated for his weakness and yes he was a great mc
without being a great flower
-------------------- "Good hair"-Uzi
1619 the 1st slaves are brought to American shores thus begins the phrase “mine is better than yours?” (huh?) forced to serve-too broke to by freedom the systematic rape of African culture has begun little time
he can be great at times (Wu aint nutthin to F w, Dairy of a madman,protect your neck, most of Wu forever)
but he also can be garbage (too many verses too name)
I just dont think he even cares tho
he's so terrible sometimes (Bobby digital) that its really funny
-------------------- "Good hair"-Uzi
1619 the 1st slaves are brought to American shores thus begins the phrase “mine is better than yours?” (huh?) forced to serve-too broke to by freedom the systematic rape of African culture has begun little time
52. "Rakim invented flow as far as it being something people checked for" In response to Reply # 34
in regards to being a great emcee
__________________________________________ CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!! ------------------------------------ Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this
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