Cut the repetitive choruses in half, BAM 25 minutes!!!

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"When the music stops he falls back into this abyss."

If you want to make a statement: make a statement.

You doing more than 45 minutes, you probably doing too much.

--------------------

blah blah blah

*Sighs*

Are What's Going On, Innervisions, Let's Stay Together and There's a Riot Going On also EP's then?

The reason people stopped doing top albums is because they started doing 19-track 74 minute albums.

Sure there's some great long albums but overall it shouldn't have been considered the standard. Hence why a lot of artists have shortened their album's lengths over the last 5 or so years. Madvillain is a perfect example of a long album done well but most could have used some cutting (Especially the dumb skits)

Mavillainy is actually only 46 minutes, I was really surprised when I noticed. But I guess it's still an exception to the rule since it's a 20-track album without fller. Like you say there are other great examples, like Cuban Linx, Aquemini, Things Fall Apart which are all 70+ minutes. Just there was great double albums in the 70's. The point - as you noted - is that it should just never have become the norm.

Essentially what had traditionally been considered double albums (60-80 min albums became the genre norm of hiphop in the mid 90's, and double albums became these absurd 100+ minute-marathon-things. That's just way too much music for one artist to create on a regular basis.

>*Sighs*
>
>Are What's Going On, Innervisions, Let's Stay Together and
>There's a Riot Going On also EP's then?
>
>The reason people stopped doing top albums is because they
>started doing 19-track 74 minute albums.

refracted through the black experience


executed impeccably

_______________________________________
When discourse of Blackness is not connected to efforts to promote collective black self determinism
it becomes simply another recourse appropriated by the colonizer

http://hardboiledbabesanddarkchocolate.tumblr.co

E.P's > L.P's i general

or is it only in hiphop

_______________________________________
When discourse of Blackness is not connected to efforts to promote collective black self determinism
it becomes simply another recourse appropriated by the colonizer

http://hardboiledbabesanddarkchocolate.tumblr.co

truth of the matter is LP's used to be shorter as someone above was trying to point out. But once the CD came out it exteded the length of the LP from around 40 minutes to over an hour. As such IMO the EP length has also been extended from 25 minutes to 40 minutes, in which case Illmatic is an EP.
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"When the music stops he falls back into this abyss."

usually fell into the album category imho as far as marketing and feel. You could take a 'glass is half full' view an say that EP's and LP's still exist, it's just everyone is creating double albums, lol.

I may disagree with the premise of the post, but I agree with the sentiment; less is more. Like I said in the pfork Schoolboy Q post the era of super long albums has just lead to sloppy ass editing.

I feel the mixtape era is helping a bit hip-hop wise since there is a legit outlet for lesser album cuts or strong ideas that won't necessarily fill a big big album. But yeah, any album longer then 14 cuts (excluding skits/other bullshit) is in the danger zone.


>truth of the matter is LP's used to be shorter as someone
>above was trying to point out. But once the CD came out it
>exteded the length of the LP from around 40 minutes to over an
>hour. As such IMO the EP length has also been extended from
>25 minutes to 40 minutes, in which case Illmatic is an EP.
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>Mo'Nium - http://monium.tumblr.com/
>
>"When the music stops he falls back into this abyss."

that's it exactly.

So many great Hip-Hop albums are ruined b/c they're to long.

Illmatic's length was perfect.

I've been saying to myself for a long time rappers need to make their albums shorter.

>that's it exactly.
>
>So many great Hip-Hop albums are ruined b/c they're to long.

I get what you're saying, but if it was great, it wasn't ruined. Can we say that "the length took away from the overall product"?

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were held back b/c of too many songs.

Sure, we've come to know ( or perhaprs a better word would be "accept")that most EP's are short in running time.

An EP is basically by definition longer than a maxi-single, but shorter than a full length album.

BUT, at the same time, I think the *endeavor* of the EP was to showcase the artist without having to put out a whole album. Meaning, I could drop 4 songs that were all 15 minutes in length. It would be a 60+ minute run time, but it would STILL be an EP. As opposed to me putting out 15-20 songs of the same length ( it would be a quadruple album of course, but I digress, lol).


So no. We can't define a release as an EP by the running time. We'll just call "Illmatic" what it is: a really short album.

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but it's only in the digital age that time doesn't have to define it. An EP was previously limited by the number of songs that could fit on a 45, fit on a 10". Cassettes followed those limitations.

And 4 fifteen minute songs is a jazz album, not an EP. Sixty minutes is album length.

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"When the music stops he falls back into this abyss."

>
>And 4 fifteen minute songs is a jazz album, not an EP. Sixty
>minutes is album length.

And I said if *I* put out four fifteen minute songs. So obviously it wouldn't be Jazz, bro. My point it, it's an EP because I SAY it is. As an artist, I said: "here, world. Check out these 4 songs. They're long as shit, and might not be on my next album, but here's what I do...if you dig it, be on the lookout for more of my shit."



>but it's only in the digital age that time doesn't have to
>define it. An EP was previously limited by the number of
>songs that could fit on a 45, fit on a 10". Cassettes
>followed those limitations.

First of all, I disagree with that. I own SEVERAL EP's that are pressed on 12-inch vinyl, but let's move on.
Sounds like we're moving the goalposts, my man. You can't define a work by the format. Are 'records' not records because they're not on vinyl? I think not. I just released an album that will probably NEVER get released on vinyl. I refer to any new recording as a 'record'. Why? because record is shorter than 'recording'. "So-and-so has a new record in the works..." It doesn't mean it's vinyl.

Call it what you want. and EP has SHIT to do with running time. By nature they ARE shorter, granted. But that's the point. You can't get to a certain minute mark and then decide it's an album. It's up to the person who released it. Nas and Columbia decided that "Illmatic" is an album so doggone it, it's an album.

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"Partly as an attempt to compete with the LP, introduced in 1948 by rival Columbia Records, RCA Victor introduced "Extended Play" 45s during 1952. Their narrower grooves, achieved by lowering the cutting levels and, if required, sound compression, enabled them to hold up to 7.5 minutes per side—but still be played by a standard 45 rpm phonograph. These were usually LPs split onto three seven-inch EPs, either sold one at a time or in boxed sets."

I wasn't calling what you make jazz, just saying that there are plenty of four track jazz albums which are albums because of the length of each of those tunes. But when vinyl was the main medium all formats were constrained by length.
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"When the music stops he falls back into this abyss."

>These were usually LPs split onto three seven-inch EPs, either
>sold one at a time or in boxed sets."

If it's an LP that was split up, it was just that. "An LP that was split up". it wasn't *released* to stand on it's own, correct? (or am I misinterpreting that passage?)

Also, once you box the three up into ONE package, it then becomes an album, right?

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. . .were considered "long playing" because they played at 33 ⅓ and had two (or maybe even three!) songs on a side in the era post-78's and pre-12" LPs.

Where do those count?

~Austin

"Where in the world is your inspiration to say the things you're aching to say?"

http://austintayeshus.blogspot.com

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Like Minutemen's "the punchline" (18 songs in 16 minutes; this one is often listed as an EP because it runs on 45 rpm but I find that silly; these are *songs*, just very short, if it was like 6 songs and the rest was interludes, I could agree) or, even worse, Dwarves ''Blood, guts and pussy'' which is only like 12 minutes but has 13 songs or so? I just don't think it's right to call these EP's, despite their length.

One *could* make a point for the first D.R.I. record which has 22 songs in like 16 minutes but was initially released as a 33 RPM 7". In that case, the *format* makes it an EP but all reissues were on 12" so IMO, it became an LP then.

So basically, in order to determine something as an Ep or Lp, you'd ahve to consider:

*the context of genre. Four jazz songs (post be-bop) are obviously not the same thing as four punk-songs.
*the format
*the length
*the ''Nature'' of the songs in the context of genre explained above. What I mean is that, say, if we are dealing with remixes, acappellas, a bunch of interludes, instrumentals of vocal tracks etc., that needs to be considered as well.

This is a complex issue and one I never truly "got" but I don't consider Illmatic an EP simply because 40 minutes and nine songs (I'm not counting the intro) just isn't ''too short'' by *previously* established Hip-Hop standards. Even then, it was not THAT short, it was some years later where things started to go crazy with time and songs in Hip-Hop but now, wer'e back to shorter albums generally so I don't see the point of recontextualizing it as an EP...

but I think anybody that is a music head and existed before 1985 has a feel for it, even if it's a slightly idiosyncratic and personal one. Basically an album is defined by either length or number of songs. 30+ minutes is an album. 10+ songs is an album. If you have fewer than 10 songs and it runs less than 30 minutes, it's an EP... generally speaking. Our OP has broken down the history of where the terminology came from, but even in the CD era when the original definitions became obsolete, that's still how people understood it to be.

Yes, to some extent it's up to the artist to state their intention, and they can release something they call an EP that is an hour long or has fifty songs on it, or whatever. But most artists don't do that because they are all music heads too, and they know the rules. Nobody's putting out hour-long "EPs" with four tracks. There are plenty of jazz, metal, and other types of artists that will do four tracks in an hour, but that shit is called an album - or maybe a demo or mixtape or something. Making an hour of music negates the whole purpose of the EP, which is something that you can engage with in a shorter amount of time. When you have an hour of material, it no longer feels like an EP to the listener. Likewise when you're a punk band and squeeze 15 songs into 15 minutes - it may still be short, but the sheer amount of content (all those very short verses and choruses) makes it feel like an album, requiring the same amount of mental energy to process as a conventional 30 or 40 minute album.

--

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good job…good job

Good for a laugh, that's about it.

let's play ping pong ■

____________________________________________________


Steph: I was just fooling about

Kyrie: I wasn't.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8OWNspU_yE

. . .on their own defines whether or not something is or isn't an EP, I see what you were going for.

And frankly I'm tired of people critiquing illmatic for being short. What about the two mediocre beats?

To answer the question that begs to be asked though: there's actually more grey area than most of us would probably be willing to admit as far as what is or isn't an EP. I think most music nerds would agree that it's a combination of how many actual tracks the release has, what they consist of and their collective length.

For example, I don't think a five song album should automatically be judged on its amount of tracks. One the one hand, you have a five track release like this, which is well in excess of an hour long: http://www.allmusic.com/album/the-last-session-r342828/review
Alternately, you have a five track release like this, which is clearly an EP, clocking in at about fifteen minutes: http://www.allmusic.com/album/king-krule-main-entry-r2335132

And I don't think there would be much argument between my dissection.

~Austin

"Where in the world is your inspiration to say the things you're aching to say?"

http://austintayeshus.blogspot.com

http://www.last.fm/user/Austintayeshus

http://twitter.com/Austintayeshus

...period.

__________________________________________
CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!!
------------------------------------
Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

is What's Going On an EP?

is A Love Deluxe an EP?

is Stand! an EP?

is Innervisions an EP?

some of the greatest ALBUMS have 9 songs.

I think the over-bloated hip-hop albums have altered people's idea of what's an EP and what's an LP.

I will agree that Illmatic's length does have a lot to do with its greatness though.

If the original poster said that it was a "glorified EP" then I would understand.

But the album is NOT and EP.

I agree my G. we actually need more albums with an intro and 9-10 songs...

"Highly developed spirits often encounter resistance from mediocre minds."-Albert Einstein

http://twitter.com/#!/TonyHanesPoetry

12 - 16 tracks.

Its all about the flow of the album.

>is What's Going On an EP?
>
>is A Love Deluxe an EP?
>
>is Stand! an EP?
>
>is Innervisions an EP?
>
>some of the greatest ALBUMS have 9 songs.
>
>I think the over-bloated hip-hop albums have altered people's
>idea of what's an EP and what's an LP.

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__________________________________________
CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!!
------------------------------------
Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

Most rap albums starting in the late 80s are the length of a sixties double album.

<----

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeM89CITvMc

and his free new singles, produced by Tough Junkie!
http://soundcloud.com/toughjunkie/sets/larry-otis-leaks

>Cut the repetitive choruses in half, BAM 25 minutes!!!
>
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>
>"When the music stops he falls back into this abyss."


I would rather listen to 25 minutes of great music than 45 minutes of pure garbage followed by 4:30 of an ok song.

__
I don't like the beat anymore because its just a loop. ALC didn't FLIP IT ENOUGH!

Flip it enough? Flip these. Flip off. Go flip some f*cking burgers.(c)Kno

Allied State of the National Electric Beat Treaty Organization (NEBTO)

Jordan!

thought the obvious truth. It takes a real trailblazer , which is in short supply around here. No album longer than Illmatic has garnered as much praise. NOT ONE. NEVER. It's because of it's length that it's considered a top album, plain & simple. That is the main reason. Not his lyrics or the production, which I haven't really heard anybody get too excited about.
All EPs are given extra dap because they are shorter than albums. How many times have you heard someone say 100 Miles & Runnin>>>>Efil4Zaggin? ALL THE TIME. From EVERYONE. What is wrong with these mfs?

>thought the obvious truth. It takes a real trailblazer ,
>which is in short supply around here. No album longer than
>Illmatic has garnered as much praise. NOT ONE. NEVER. It's
>because of it's length that it's considered a top album, plain
>& simple. That is the main reason. Not his lyrics or the
>production, which I haven't really heard anybody get too
>excited about.


Memory Lane is the emotive of MCing. Is that enough praise for you?

The fact that Illmatic is credited as the first 'super producer' album isn't enough excitement for you?

Unless you were being sarcastic...but ah...yea...dumb ass comment.

If it was sarcastic then it didn't really. Read that way.

And it was supposed to say 'epitome' of MCing...damn iPad.

.

************************************************************

This shit is a mess. Was this bait & everyone fell for it? Is this a joke? Where's the punchline? WTF happened here? What was this about? Bizarre :/

first of all…I noted that it could be sarcasm.

second of all…in The Lesson, any crazy statement about Nas is liable to be someone trying to be different.

third…the dude doesn't have very many posts so there is no track record of his sarcasm and could potentially make him an alias.

I can't believe even after I stated the possibility of sarcasm people still feel the need to chime in.

I caught the sarcasm or did you reply to the wrong person?

my bad

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"When the music stops he falls back into this abyss."

Like "dumb as fuck" stupid. Plus, judging from your posts & comments I have seen over time - I think you are uh...not the smartest person, let's put it that way.

That pleases my heart.
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"When the music stops he falls back into this abyss."

I went with the original version:

"Cut "Represent" & "One Time 4 Your Mind" and BAM!!!"
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"When the music stops he falls back into this abyss."

so, your OP still would be dumb.

you'll note two types of people in this post, those that can get past the logical absurdity to talk about the implications, and folk like you who prefer to shit on me. I'm happy. You should be me.
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"When the music stops he falls back into this abyss."

it ain't that big'a deal - nobody clicks your posts looking for deep, thoughful debate. At least I hope not.

thinking about me.... so cute.

I forgot the ™ in Logical Absurdity™ I own that one.


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"When the music stops he falls back into this abyss."

It makes me feel good about myself when I can point out that someone else is wrong. I'm an asshole. Illmatic is not an EP, by the way - and it's length has nothing to do with why it is considered a top album. Sorry.
Nobody is perfect, and we all say dumb things from time to time. It happens. What's important is knowing how to pick up the pieces and try to grow as an individual. You'll get through this. It's only a small bump in a long road. Good luck to you.

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"When the music stops he falls back into this abyss."

this damn idiot..wtf

3-4 songs max, maybe a remix of an earlier song.

To me, a CMS was the OG song, remix(es) and/or instrumental, and one other song, either album cut or unreleased/B side cut.

All of which is semantics, really

<-- Dave Thomas knows what's up...
__________________________

Jay: Look here homie, any nigga can get a hit record. This here is about respect.
Game: Like Gladys Knight.
Jay: Aretha Franklin.
Game: Word, I like her too.
Jay: Nigga...

i mean, if we're challenging the definitions/classifications of things, if that is what you're doing, why not flip it on the idea of an "ep"?

to me, "illmatic" is just a short album. "album" in some non-denotative sense that it makes it's own statement of sorts. not that an ep can't do that, but there's something about the idea of an "album", at least to me, that speaks more definitively to the vision behind the music.

not saying your idea isn't valid or whatever; just building.

either way, if nas calls it an album, i'll believe it's an album. i still get what you mean, though.

__________________________
word.

It's that every other rap album is way too long.

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*********************
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divided we fall

you realized this was my response to the Kendrick Lamar post, which of course I took to be a response to BTH.

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"When the music stops he falls back into this abyss."

Nonsense, its an album.

I support this theory and have espoused it myself when feeling argumentative. There are 8 songs.

I'm from the lost black tribe of Israel, the Yos

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