"Not for nothing, but white women is kinda killing it these days" Mon Jan-23-12 10:26 AM by imcvspl
Not really talking about pop shit. And no doubt a lot of the horrible shit that they doing misses me, and it's not that they are doing things that are outshining what black women can do... but they doing shit that is unignoreably on my radar.
tunyards dropped the leading vocal album on my list last year (still making that list) Shara Worten, killed her features and dropped a pretty awesome album last year. Julia Holter put her foot into some noise work.
I'm trying to think what the parallels from the black community are. I mean you can say we don't do shit like that and you'd be wrong but undertandably so. But examples of I don't know how to call it, expressive creativity from black women are so few and far between. Have the boxes we've errected for them prevented this type of artistic development.
Only ones I can think of are Matana Roberts and Pamela Z but they are pretty far off the general radar.
2. "Nopayne already hates me" In response to Reply # 1
>what about janelle, me'shell, and the 'santogold' album?
Janelle is too polished. Me'shell kinda works but emotionally and content wise, but her form has been pretty straightforward of late. Ms. White will need a third single to convince me. And still she's to polished.
By polished here I mean too much of a marketing package. All of the artists I've listed suffer mostly from not being 'marketable' which is I'd say a good thing in this instance.
>Me'shell kinda works but emotionally and content wise, but her >form has been pretty straightforward of late.
agreed
>Ms. White will need a third single to convince me. And still >she's to polished.
*ahem* i specified the previous album, this one isn't shaping up too well, but i'd love to be surprised
>By polished here I mean too much of a marketing package. All >of the artists I've listed suffer mostly from not being >'marketable' which is I'd say a good thing in this instance.
who cares about marketing, why would that even factor into a musical discussion (ironic posting), i think it's different production aesthetics, not creativity, that are the issue and you want something more lo-fi
7. "We're going to need to redefine lo-fi" In response to Reply # 4
>*ahem* i specified the previous album, this one isn't shaping >up too well, but i'd love to be surprised
My comment still holds for the first album, she'd have to *cough* go back to the stiffed stuff to escape it.
> >>By polished here I mean too much of a marketing package. >All >>of the artists I've listed suffer mostly from not being >>'marketable' which is I'd say a good thing in this instance. > >who cares about marketing, why would that even factor into a >musical discussion (ironic posting), i think it's different >production aesthetics, not creativity, that are the issue and >you want something more lo-fi
Is it really that hard to see how the packaging affects. I mean with Janelle, a whole part of it is buying into the 'character'. And the music helps to dress up the character. It isn't that I don't think she's just tryiing to be her, but in order to do so at the levle she has so far, has meant in essence becoming a caricature of herself. Not a parody mind you, but just over emphasis on the character aspect.
It's not so much the production per-se, which btw I don't consider lo-fi. Lo-fi needs new or split definition. Because yeah hi-fi would be crisp and clean pristine digital production. But everything that isn't that isn't necessarily the rejection of it which I think the lo-fi label implies. Artists are working within the sound possibilities that weren't as artistically variable in the past. The hi-fi aesthetic is no longer the end all be all upon which to compare. This grimes album is really quality sounding. Not lo-fi, but not crisp clean either. To reduce it to lo-fi, denies the complexity of sound contained within.
9. "RE: We're going to need to redefine lo-fi" In response to Reply # 7
>My comment still holds for the first album, she'd have to >*cough* go back to the stiffed stuff to escape it.
regardless of overall quality or enjoyability, you really think stiffed was as creative as the yotches you're talking about?
>Is it really that hard to see how the packaging affects. I >mean with Janelle, a whole part of it is buying into the >'character'. And the music helps to dress up the character. >It isn't that I don't think she's just tryiing to be her, but >in order to do so at the levle she has so far, has meant in >essence becoming a caricature of herself. Not a parody mind >you, but just over emphasis on the character aspect.
the fact that someone is even attempting this and pulling it off with a degree of success means she belongs in this conversation... this isn't a lana del rey situation where we're supposed to buy the character as the real person, this is clearly a creative project meant to be rich in allegory... give credit where due
>To reduce it to lo-fi, >denies the complexity of sound contained within.
>the fact that someone is even attempting this and pulling it >off with a degree of success means she belongs in this >conversation... this isn't a lana del rey situation where >we're supposed to buy the character as the real person, this >is clearly a creative project meant to be rich in allegory... >give credit where due
Great defense. Can't deny it.
> >>To reduce it to lo-fi, >>denies the complexity of sound contained within. > >i'll have to take your word for it
Pre-digital, lo-fi meant recording your band through shitty mics and mixers. Using a $2000 synth arp that sounds analogy as hell because it's supposed to can't really be compared.
>i meant RE: the grimes album... haven't really been impressed >with that p4k bait to date. the lo-fi comment was more for the >other women you listed.
It really is p4k bait which is why I didn't even want to like it.
But... c'mon Tuneyards is lo-fi? Is julia holter noise or lo-fi? Can there be hi-fi noise? Well yes I think Demiurge could be considered hi-fi noise. Tim Hecker too maybe. See what I mean?
i dunno that they're mutually exclusive, but what i've heard has been more "field recording"-y than noise, which lends itself more to the lo-fi categorization... but it's all in the ears of the beholder
3. "never really thought about this before" In response to Reply # 0 Mon Jan-23-12 10:39 AM by cjr2221
there really aren't a lot of black women in music outside of pop/R&B/Soul.
I can't remember the last album that I was introduced to by an AA woman/ new artist.
*edit*^ yeah I can it was Syd's project from OFWG, where she's doing "narco-pop" or whatever people wanna call it. *
I'd say it's to be expected though, I'm guessing that music is male dominated; overall not necessarily in the pop realm. Plus AA's aren't really involved in music outside of Hip-Hop/pop/R&B, as much as whites + AA females are already a minority, it's natural that their are hardly any AA females involved in "alt." music.
15. "i found myself listening to a couple xanadu projects last year" In response to Reply # 14
by black women: bosco and rochelle jordan. neither really wowed me, but they weren't bad. i think some of these projects just might be a bit off the radar, but they're out there ("it's a movement").
8. "Addressed me'shell in #2" In response to Reply # 6
Georgia Anne kinda fits well, but I don't think she's made a solid album yet. Some really great tunes scattered across her catalog, but no album that I gotta listen to front to back. ________ Big PEMFin H & z's █▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃ http://concretesoundsystem.com Mo'Nium - http://monium.tumblr.com/
"When the music stops he falls back into this abyss."
50. ":( Kings Ballad and Umsindo are gorgeous" In response to Reply # 8
Ocotea is pretty and fun.
SomeOthaShip was really great.
I've been able to tell for a while now that you "care" more, though. About what I'm not sure, but your palette is both way more diverse and way more picky than mine. Like a lot of posters here, really.
To me, hearing someone say they can't listen to Umsindo front to back is like they don't even have a heart. Saddening.
16. "You lika da Suzi Analogue?" In response to Reply # 0
I know most of the artists you mentioned aren't performing in areas typically ascribed to black female artists, so maybe it's more about how the ladies are running white music. But Suzi Analogue is making some fun (free) music right now.
---- I check for: Serengeti, Zeroh, Open Mike Eagle, Jeremiah Jae, Moka Only.
You know I went back to make another edit to late that would have said this is just as much an 'indictment' of white men as it is black women. ________ Big PEMFin H & z's █▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃ http://concretesoundsystem.com Mo'Nium - http://monium.tumblr.com/
"When the music stops he falls back into this abyss."
>Every once in a while, despite myself, I enjoy an "ironic" >indie cover of a rap song. Another example is Casiotone For >The Painfully Alone's Hot Boyz:
>You know I went back to make another edit to late that would >have said this is just as much an 'indictment' of white men as >it is black women.
white men have made some of my favorite albums of the last few years, they're just not for the most part the same ones getting the hipster accolades... anyway, caucasian, negroid, male, female, solo, group, it's all love, peace
27. "pandering to who?" In response to Reply # 24 Mon Jan-23-12 12:22 PM by GumDrops
i think shes just a bit aimless now, unsure what to do/where to go so theres this sort of disinterest that you hear in her music now... or the last one at least. the one before was good but it also sounds like shes not quite sure what she should be doing anymore.
30. "you get what i'm getting at" In response to Reply # 27
>i think shes just a bit aimless now, unsure what to do/where >to go so theres this sort of disinterest that you hear in her >music now... or the last one at least. the one before was good >but it also sounds like shes not quite sure what she should be >doing anymore.
That aimlessness has her being attracted to what she thinks she should be attracted to as opposed to.... who knows. But it seems shy of pure sincerity.
32. "i think shes sincere" In response to Reply # 30 Mon Jan-23-12 12:36 PM by GumDrops
shes just lacking the confidence to really go full on in any particular focused direction... im thinking she might be wondering who her audience is, and what that audience might be willing to take from her. and then she doesnt seem interested in anything too 'new', so is caught up somewhere between her usual tastes and going somewhere SLIGHTLY different with it, so you just end up with her working with sa-ra and madlib.
which to be fair has made for some good tracks, esp on nu amerykah, but id just like to hear something a bit different? it seems shes quite comfortably in her comfort zone. which actually, i dont mind, now i think about it. i love the mamas gun sounding tracks on nu amerykah. my main prob with her is that the songwriting focus doesnt seem to be there anymore, esp as she is/was one of the best around.
39. "RE: i think shes sincere" In response to Reply # 32
>shes just lacking the confidence to really go full on in any >particular focused direction... im thinking she might be >wondering who her audience is, and what that audience might be >willing to take from her. and then she doesnt seem interested >in anything too 'new', so is caught up somewhere between her >usual tastes and going somewhere different with it, so you >just end up with her working with sa-ra and madlib.
i think you're doing a great job arguing *against* her as an alternative, which is funny because i loved '4th world war' and found it highly creative and experimental, but yeah, she didn't really go "all the way" and probably never will
>then again, im not sure why i expect that from her. my main >prob with her is that the songwriting focus doesnt seem to be >there anymore, esp as she is/was one of the best around.
she probably figures if her peers and the newer generation don't care/can't be bothered/don't even know how to write songs, why should she? which, again, does a great job in disqualifying her in this conversation, even for all her talent and occasional ambition
the lack of tight songwriting from her makes her more relevant. you can call it 'challenging our structural expectations' and then she becomes avant garde and fits into the conversation of daring female artists again.
44. "It's funny you call it 'lack of songwriting'" In response to Reply # 43
>the lack of tight songwriting from her makes her more >relevant. you can call it 'challenging our structural >expectations' and then she becomes avant garde and fits into >the conversation of daring female artists again.
I actually think her Mama's Gun era stuff is the lack of songwriting streamofconsciousnesslyricsinto a song period. WU her best and most minimal songwriting. These days throw back to that with a different, less sure sonic backdrop.
45. "that last album was just sketches" In response to Reply # 44
it was like she couldnt even be bothered to flesh it out. im all for the 'short song' stuff, but i expect a bit better from her. sounded like an excuse for just not trying.
>the lack of tight songwriting from her makes her more >relevant. you can call it 'challenging our structural >expectations' and then she becomes avant garde and fits into >the conversation of daring female artists again.
i agree, which is what i was getting at by saying it's creative and experimental, but we don't really know how much was purposeful and how much was unfinished. unfortunately, with her, i can't always give her the benefit of the doubt, as she flirts with the notion of "half-assing" it like claiming to have recorded that album on garageband.
55. "if Nu Amerykah isn't going all the way..." In response to Reply # 39
especially for the contemporary R&B/Soul/funk genre, IDK who is? It's one of the reasons I "disliked" pt.II, or at the very least found it boring... she back-tracked and pandered to the salty neo-soul fans who found pt. One "too weird".
but check that link for those of you in this convo who think she's pandering or not knowing what to do. I don't think any of that. I think she just needs a writing partner and one focused producer (or 2/3) to go in the next (NOT NEW) direction
61. "i'll try to check that RBMA lecture" In response to Reply # 55
>especially for the contemporary R&B/Soul/funk genre, IDK who >is?
if you have to add qualifications then we're on the same page... and to answer your question, maybe no one, which is why we have this topic when we really shouldn't, but expectations for different genres and, sadly, races and sexes vary
>It's one of the reasons I "disliked" pt.II, or at the very >least found it boring... she back-tracked and pandered to the >salty neo-soul fans who found pt. One "too weird".
and that is a huge mark against her in this conversation
63. "i wanted to hear more like nu amerykah vol 1 too" In response to Reply # 61
it wasnt perfect but at least it was something different for her while still very 'erykah'... i think she took the whole sketch-as-song thing madlib and dilla were doing somewhere interesting but seems like she just went on autopilot on the last album, but so 'auto' she didnt even care about finishing half the songs.
26. "I've come around to Minaj" In response to Reply # 25
But again it's definitely a show. I think something that sets the artists I listed apart is that they collectively seem to just be doing them, in all the complexities that comes with it. Artists on the larger scale have this problem of upholding image which these artists just completely avoid. ________ Big PEMFin H & z's █▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃ http://concretesoundsystem.com Mo'Nium - http://monium.tumblr.com/
"When the music stops he falls back into this abyss."
31. "it's better than Hype Williams" In response to Reply # 29
Not so much on her content, but I can admit she's got a talent which could be interesting to watch in the future should she find some depth. Not saying I'm a fan or anything. She got #flow though. ________ Big PEMFin H & z's █▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃ http://concretesoundsystem.com Mo'Nium - http://monium.tumblr.com/
"When the music stops he falls back into this abyss."
of tuneyard's "Riotriot" with minaj spitting a verse about seducing the cop that arrested her brother. C'MON!!! ________ Big PEMFin H & z's █▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃ http://concretesoundsystem.com Mo'Nium - http://monium.tumblr.com/
"When the music stops he falls back into this abyss."
41. "really? thats a shame" In response to Reply # 38
i loved her songs on the wajeed album
but honestly, if you want more black female singers to sound like that song, idk.... it seems like youre asking, why cant more black female artists sound more like white female artists lol. though im sure you mean it more broadly than that.
58. "i remember seeing this last summer" In response to Reply # 47
being like What The Fuck is she doin'. it's "good" on a ironic laughin' at her level. I loath that Cubic Zirconia shit she doin'. why can't she just make that shit she did in the beginning of her career and explore the experimental parameters of that sound? in other words embracing/finding comfort in her "blackness" while dippin' into the other sonic territories. I feel like a lot of alternative Black youth have confused being alternative with "let's do the least Black sounding/looking thing we can think of"... yawn
40. "the correct answer is" In response to Reply # 37
Esperanza... lol and yeah I just railroaded my own argument. I hadn't actually seen the video, just going off the music. ________ Big PEMFin H & z's █▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃ http://concretesoundsystem.com Mo'Nium - http://monium.tumblr.com/
"When the music stops he falls back into this abyss."
59. "It wasn't so much for the sound as the sentiment" In response to Reply # 56
Be brave in being yourself. But not in some uplift the race, or uplift the gender way, in a real personal, this is what I've got to do, giving indication of some weakness on the part of the artist while at the same time overcoming it. I don't know. Just something about it.
53. "Archetypes for black artists have shrunk all around" In response to Reply # 0 Mon Jan-23-12 02:30 PM by Reuben
i miss the everyman type the most.
_______________________________________ When discourse of Blackness is not connected to efforts to promote collective black self determinism it becomes simply another recourse appropriated by the colonizer
the tuneyards aint hittin' in my book. i checked out their shit around Oct/Nov of last year and tuned out after 5/6 videos
that song you linked in the OG post... lol. I aint a 24 year old white girl dosed up on 80s lady with Zoey Daschenal as my idol. so that sound doesn't do much for me...
but really J*Davey is still making fun/left-field music. Evil Christian Cop EP was great and even though NDD was too polished IMO it was def very good in places.
Than there is Muhsinah, who YALL KEEP SLEEPING on. Her gone EP from last year was fish grease; combining aspects of rock and electronic dance music, but still keeping it soulful
62. "took 60 posts for someone to get angry LOL!!" In response to Reply # 60
>the tuneyards aint hittin' in my book. i checked out their >shit around Oct/Nov of last year and tuned out after 5/6 >videos
5/6 videos? I've accepted you either like tuneyards or you don't though, so it's all good.
>that song you linked in the OG post... lol. I aint a 24 year >old white girl dosed up on 80s lady with Zoey Daschenal as my >idol. so that sound doesn't do much for me...
LOL!! A near 40 white woman put me on though.
>but really J*Davey is still making fun/left-field music. Evil >Christian Cop EP was great and even though NDD was too >polished IMO it was def very good in places.
You see how you took them out of the conversation yourself though right?
>Than there is Muhsinah, who YALL KEEP SLEEPING on. Her gone EP >from last year was fish grease; combining aspects of rock and >electronic dance music, but still keeping it soulful
That's the one she did twice right? To pander to two different audiences... seen!!
>than there is still Esperanza and Me'shell
Esperanza made two albums to pander to different audiences.
Me'shell I addressed above. She's still trump among all artists for me though.
65. "HA! angry and in the building" In response to Reply # 62
yeah I know I took J*Davey out the convo in a way, and I know what you're getting at with Muhsinah, BUT isn't that the racial element we are not discussing? That Black woman have to eventually pander to a more polished or "Blacker" sound to either get signed or move units?
And since you brought up that Esperanza pandered, who doesn't? (which her pandering is quite baffling to me, please explain?) Aren't the white girls you linked up pandering to the weird white chicks / nerdy literati guy crowd?
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