"The (lack of) presence of older black men in corporate America. "
Something I've been thinking about trying to put into words, its kind of a forming thought.
I've been going through a period of realizing that I rarely see older black men in senior level roles.
I've often come across plenty of ambitious young black men throughout the various corporate/boutique/start up jobs I've had through the years...
but
I'm starting to wonder where the older black men are. It's feels like the ranks are filled with young men (that is to say, 25 to 45) at the jr, mid and senior levels then a lot of nothing and then powerful c-suit types (i.e. Don Thompson, Robert F. Smith, Ken Chenault etc.) but it seems like there is no inbetween and I'm wondering if what I'm seeing is real or perceived.
I guess, as I get older and deeper in my career I'm not seeing too many folks who look like me for reference, inspiration and mentorship.
Related, I've also just been thinking about the presence and visibility of older black men in general. Feels like whenever I go to family functions for my wife's family, my family, my step father's family, family of friends, etc. it seems like there are less older black men there in relation to the amount of older black women - (i.e. elders, family and community leaders, etc.)
Are you in an area where there is a critical mass of educated black men?
Our CEO is black which is rare (and we both agree on that) but also in this area we have HU and then maybe a lot black folks come to this area after school I believe so I see a fair amount of "black" folks who may have some authoritative position in government, medicine, etc.
Then there is the reality that progress wise we are a little behind on getting into those roles multiplied by the rate at which the culture pushes men of African ancestry into socio-economic dynamics that lead to prison and or capped achievement in general.
______________________________________
Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days
3. "Corporate America sucks for a lot of people. Maybe they escape." In response to Reply # 0 Thu Apr-25-19 03:10 PM by flipnile
Almost every black guy that I see at a decent level around here also has a side business or two. I know more older black male small business owners than upper-level corporate workers, and I wonder if it's the desire to be a boss, and to gain more control over their future, even if it is less money and more risk.
4. "i've seen a lot of corporate america" In response to Reply # 0 Thu Apr-25-19 03:17 PM by Crash Bandacoot
virtually no blacks in senior roles. and the two that i've seen appear to be borderline coons who have to do some (shitty) things to survive. i most recently had a black woman senior scrum master who is a lifer and on that "new black" (hbcu grad and all) and also had a black senior manager who climbed the ranks because he is a lifer...both have to deal with highly unethical environments.
as long as yt people are at the top of the org, they control and you are going to have to do some things in order to break into that group.
i'm in a senior role btw, and looking to get out...it's toxic.
5. "This topic is my life. " In response to Reply # 0
If I had more time I would write more but here are a couple of thoughts:
1. We just got here. You won't find a ton of 80 year old black men with corporate experience because we just go allowed into the building in like the 80s.
2. Now I know a shit ton of older black successful men from the south and most of those cats made their money outside of white corporate america. They doctors, lawyers, etc. My down gave me all types of shit (lightweight) for working for white folks. In all the old black men bougee organizations he was in he started to see the younger crop of corporate america brothers and he thought they were corny.
3. Corporate America is all about mentoring/sponsorship/etc. Black women can have it easier because their is usually an older white guy in the building who has a soft spot for a young brown woman. That same guy wouldn't have the same "affection" for a young brother. It is partly the difference between my wife and my career. She has always had a mentor opening doors for her.
4. I feel like black masculinity we are taught to challenge authority, which is a good thing, except in corporate america. Man sometimes I try to give advice to younger cats doing it and feel like an Uncle Ruckus telling them to be consensus builders, don't talk shit to their managers and you have to work twice as hard. I've seen it time and time again (including myself) where a new young blood will come in, think they going to change the game and don't have to follow the work twice as hard playbook, and they never last.
5. The brothers who do get ahead, don't often don't have enough clout to bring up another brother within their organization. I had a black guy I kind adjacently use to work for and he tried to help with advice but ultimately he just didn't have the juice to really directly help my career. Sadly, when I moved on this fool reached out to me for business.
I got more later.
********** "Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
legsdiamond Member since May 05th 2011 79594 posts
Thu Apr-25-19 03:25 PM
6. "Why was dude a fool for asking you for business?" In response to Reply # 5
Maybe he realized you had the cheat code?
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
9. "Probably 60% of the under-45 black women I know in corporate " In response to Reply # 5
America have mentors.
I've never identified anyone to mentor me, nor have I been approached to be mentored. The one black guy who was high up and had influence, early in my career, was a power-trippy jerk who alienated everyone under him over time (everyone has stores about disliking him, and a bunch of the women have #metoo stores about him.)
I've basically just been figuring stuff out on my own since I started my career.
21. "Never had a mentor either. " In response to Reply # 9
I feel like I've identified two type of mentors for black men.
The white guy who has lots of juice and can do whatever he wants and wants a cool black guy or a stud. You have to be able to talk sports and it's even better if you play or played something. These types want a real authentic jive talking black guy on the team. He wants to play his hip-hop for you.
Much rarer but I have seen an older white women who has been burned by white men in corporate america and likes the idea of having a guy around who won't necessarily come for their position.
Professionally, the worst people I have had to work for were model minority types. The type to hold brown people to a higher standard then they hold white people too.
********** "Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
17. "I've run into #5 a whole lot" In response to Reply # 5
>5. The brothers who do get ahead, don't often don't have >enough clout to bring up another brother within their >organization. I had a black guy I kind adjacently use to work >for and he tried to help with advice but ultimately he just >didn't have the juice to really directly help my career. >Sadly, when I moved on this fool reached out to me for >business.
And to be completely honest, sometimes it's me. I'm not the "The Man" in this organization. I can only do so much to help another cat out.
24. "I saw #3, #4, #5 live in action in my 7 years at Alcoa" In response to Reply # 5
The only older Black man that seemed to have longevity was the one that was quiet, kept to himself, and didn't seek to get any promotions or challenge anyone.
58. "This is me now. I shut up and don't ask for anything." In response to Reply # 27
I have asked for a promotion, challenged authority, tried new things and only to se Brittany and Kristen swoop in and make $20k more than me doing less, maybe equally the same work.
I have completely checked out. The way corporate world affects some of us can be demoralizing. I decided to be happy with my salary, which is six figures and chill out until my pension.
Fighting for something that is not mine is not a good use of my life.
35. "#3 For me ALL DAY - Never had a Mentor in Corp Murca" In response to Reply # 5
I really don't have a mentor in the ministry circles because folks in these circles are often territorial. And when a say mentor, I mean someone that will actively try to assist you to further your career in ministry. There are plenty of folks that will use up your gift, anointing, and talent, but won't spend the time to pour into those areas and help you get ahead.
As for the corporate side of life. I have been too dang smart for my own good. Most Older black men were on that "Keep it up, you're on the right track", but they never had time to school you and help you unless you were ready to carry their coat.
My wife has a gang of mentors. Black women be looking out for each other on the regular - Leave No Sister Behind.
>3. Corporate America is all about mentoring/sponsorship/etc. >Black women can have it easier because their is usually an >older white guy in the building who has a soft spot for a >young brown woman. That same guy wouldn't have the same >"affection" for a young brother. It is partly the difference >between my wife and my career. She has always had a mentor >opening doors for her. > >
. .
“It was the evidence from science and history that prompted me to abandon my atheism and become a Christian.” — Lee Strobel, The Case for Christ
7. "It's not just you, I've noticed it too. Even just on my commute, I almos..." In response to Reply # 0
never see black men over 45 going to the downtown business districts. I noticed one last week on my commute home. He looked to be mid 50's to early 60's, and I realized he caught my eye because I never see any.
My company is a decent size multinational corporation and there are basically zero black men in upper middle or upper management, and I'm one of maybe 4 black guys on the two or three floors above and below mine.
There was an older guy in upper-middle management from Antigua, but he retired after 40 years here, about three years ago.
Also, I too have noticed the lack of old black men out and about in general. Even on the A train, which is basically the main train for Bed Stuy, I see a fair number of old black women, but few men.
8. "Part of the issue is alot of the older black women here are admins" In response to Reply # 7
or in operations. Black men aren't in those kinds of roles in the numbers that women are. So the women can hold on to those kinds of jobs for decades, but the men are absent from that.
And let's be honest, the criminal justice system knocks alot of black men out of the running to work in corporate America. That, along with the gender imbalance in terms of college graduation, there are way more black women who are qualified and ready to thrive.
28. "and this is why i left Alcoa. I was one of those admins" In response to Reply # 8
i figured out that i would not be trained to have any other kind of position in the company. Even when i moved to the Foundation, i ended up in the Coordinator tract, which is basically an admin, but for the foundation
18. "It's a few movers and shakers in SSA..." In response to Reply # 11
My wife lucked up and got one (Black woman) as a mentor. This lady has been instrumental in my wife getting three new jobs in the last two years.
Sheeeit! I'm on the civilian contracting side and dig it because the bread is groovy. However, I often think of going completely into the government space to ride out the next 15 to 20 years of my career. Anyway, I'm the only Black man here on the project but I'm also in the PMO. However, in our corp offices, there are no executives who look like me. It may just take for me to find a local networking group to plug into.
I'm getting more support and mentoring, if you will, from our Program Director who happens to be a Trump-supporting middle-aged White lady. The project, according to the Prog Director, may be mine to run one day soon. I've encountered a bunch of Black Program and Project Managers who run things on government contracts in various agencies and departments.
22. "black folk are at every level of the fed govt in dc" In response to Reply # 11
it has been that way since at least bush jr and has two do with a couple of factors including veteran preference, being able to move up in the govt through long term service, that dc itself attracts the best in the country, and it being chocolate city/ howard u and so on. I wish you could see the kinds of people bought in under the Obama administration. Man what a time to be in dc.
25. "I've only ever seen one. " In response to Reply # 0
And it's recent. I just started at a new company and the CFO is a black man. And he's Black. Caribbean with a thick accent. Brilliant dude. That said I don't know if he qualifies as 'older.' He might be... 50? I've no idea.
========================================= I'm an advocate for working smarter, not harder. If you just focus on working hard you end up making someone else rich and not having much to show for it. (c) mad
30. "These young cats really don't believe you have to work twice as hard" In response to Reply # 0
I had a manager call me to tell she is letting go of a young black male that works for her and the only thing I have to do with it is she knows that I am invested in, and mentor young black people in the office when I can.
I told her I wouldn't endorse her decision and tried to aruge the counterpoints but the problems she was describing with the young dude sounds typical of what I see with younger black folks in corporate america who don't seem to fair so well (some kids are killing it). Lots of sick days, arguing with the boys, complaining about work, bad additude, etc.
Just generally stuff I wouldn't expect to fly because I was always raised with the belief that these white folks are waiting for you to fail and you have to work twice as hard if you want to move up in the world.
I also think I would have been in a better position to defend this young cat if it wasn't for the couple times I had reached out to him for help with something young boy had no follow-up and we never got it done.
Anyway, I also think it soften the blow that his replacement would be another black male.
Anyway, It's just crazy to me because I keep seeing these young people who think they can get away with the same thing there white counterparts do and are surprised when they are held to a different standard.
Again, I try to do my part to mentor but at some point it just feels like Tom'n so I can only do so much.
********** "Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
34. "The thing about it is college really doesn't prepare us for it. " In response to Reply # 31
There is some semblance of a meritocracy in college and we are very much encouraged to be leaders and outspoken (which are great things). Then you leave there and go to a job and what they really want you to do is STFU and follow and pay dues. They think going to your bosses boss with ideas is the power play but what really works best is helping your boss shine to their boss and just playing your role. That's tough to do. It's the fine line between insecurity and humbleness.
********** "Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
37. "yeah, it's confusing" In response to Reply # 34 Thu May-23-19 03:52 PM by Crash Bandacoot
you are already in country that is above you, the elders (and society) try to lay out a plan, and that plan is a very very rough sketch. can you blame them? it's difficult to make sense of it. on top of that, your life/livelihood is in the hands of a chosen few (by whatever means that they arrived in that position) and they can completely crush you...if you let it. it's necessary that young people feel empowered to make change because the odds are stacked against them.
>There is some semblance of a meritocracy in college and we >are very much encouraged to be leaders and outspoken (which >are great things). Then you leave there and go to a job and >what they really want you to do is STFU and follow and pay >dues. They think going to your bosses boss with ideas is the >power play but what really works best is helping your boss >shine to their boss and just playing your role. That's tough >to do. It's the fine line between insecurity and humbleness. > > >********** >"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then >they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson > >"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"
BrooklynWHAT Member since Jun 15th 2007 85073 posts
Thu May-23-19 02:37 PM
32. "i notice this the most in our hiring" In response to Reply # 30
its no accident that the successful people we hire are usually the women or the black people. half of these white boys i wouldnt have even let past the phone interview. you can tell in 2 seconds they got a hamster powering their brain.
36. "I don't think so. " In response to Reply # 33
I did have home girl keep telling me that such and such gets away with way worst and I was like, but that person is going to be fired too eventually. Don't model your performance on the worst in the batch. Yeah you will get clipped first because you are colored but they going to get got too eventually.
********** "Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
legsdiamond Member since May 05th 2011 79594 posts
Fri May-24-19 09:08 AM
39. "We just let go of the other brotha at my gig" In response to Reply # 30
Just now.
They said he was arguing with clients and wasn’t “fitting in”
Real talk. The reason they let him go was because he called out folks for bad protocol.
I liked dude too but you can’t y’all about how people aren’t doing their job your first month into the gig. His GF is supposed to be moving in with her 2 kids next month too.
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
41. "What kind of bad protocol?" In response to Reply # 39
I guess I just keep wondering why people think they won't fire your black ass if you aren't working well with people?
Definitely never understood the person who comes in with guns blazing.
There are some jobs that it doesn't matter if you get along because you got objective goals like sales, etc. But most jobs require that you have to get along with people. I just wonder if it crosses their mind, "well me and my boss and co-workers aren't getting along, they might try to get rid of me.."
********** "Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
I’m not technical but we had a client who’s network went dark and there was some finger pointing over who was responsible.
Dude wanted to right up a new way of handling how we respond to incidents.
I don’t think his manager appreciated the way he went about it. Especially since she was out of town when he brought it up and she knew about the incident.
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
53. "Does dude work in IT? Because if so... SMH" In response to Reply # 42 Tue May-28-19 02:16 PM by flipnile
On of the reasons I *hate* talking to clients and non-tech people about technical things. They don't know shit about anything, and get all offended when you do your job and take control of the situation.
If he's not in IT then SMH. Should've just shuffled some papers like everyone else instead of trying to set rules.
IT dudes argue like fuck over shit like network protocols and server access, yet NO ONE EVER goes to HR or complains. All the other departments? Folks gotta proofread emails to make sure they aren't offending anyone, lol.
and it was over company protocol for worst case scenarios
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
43. "re: "guns blazing" maaaaaaan listen...." In response to Reply # 41
my company is hard to get in but its also kinda hard to be fired - they will work with you and try to help you be your best - it's definitely rigourous if you're not used to the pace, but still...come in, do your work, keep the output up and you will be fine.
We had a guy (older former military captain) come and go in 5 months because he game in guns blazing. I knew what the problems were from day once but I kept big opinions to myself while I took time to gauge the culture because I know soft/people skills are key if you're trying to change culture. Dude tried to muscle fuck the situation and his approach was to step on ALL the toes. We know shit is fucked up but we also know we gotta keep delivering projects, else the billion dollar machine stops. He tried to come in and tell everybody why nothing was working as if nobody knew the exact reasons.
45. "The thing is, you got to watch them complaining about us having a " In response to Reply # 44
bad attitude. Like I need to hear specifically what the complaint is.
My boy who is 6'3" and 250 lbs was approached after a meeting and someone asked him what's wrong? He said nothing. The person tried to tell him that he should be mindful of his face because he looked like he was mad about something. He was like, what are you talking about? Because I didn't have a cheese eating grin the whole meeting?
I too have been told I am being aggressive for just speaking up and defending myself.
So when I drilled down on the lady about the attitude issue and the lady told me how he had made clear he rather be back in school instead of working there and every request is met with a I'm already so busy sigh, to the point the kids he work with don't want to approach him, I was like, yeah I get it.
********** "Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
legsdiamond Member since May 05th 2011 79594 posts
Tue May-28-19 02:52 PM
55. "Dude at my gig was on point" In response to Reply # 45
His issue was the old “at my last job” .. “the way we did things”
But the real issue was even tho he wasn’t technically wrong he went over his mangers head to change the way we handle emergencies and that rubbed his manager the wrong way. Made her look incompetent.
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
40. "Maybe this is regional" In response to Reply # 0 Fri May-24-19 09:15 AM by Tw3nty
I havent seen this as much in the DMV area. My job which is abou as corporate as it can get, is flooded with older black men. My god dad is also the ceo of a regional fortune 500 company. But the DMV might be a special case.
========================================= I'm an advocate for working smarter, not harder. If you just focus on working hard you end up making someone else rich and not having much to show for it. (c) mad
48. "Being a black man in corporate america can not only draining but.." In response to Reply # 0
...damn near emasculating. I was raised to be a man's man by my father (a plant working mechanic) so my ethic is more blue color to begin with in relation to white color dudes..then on top of the fact of being raised as a conscious black man so I really don't trust no white people to begin with...lol but I've studied and worked hard to be proficient in my craft. So I was good enough to be in the building, but the more I worked in the building the more I wanted to burn the building down. So I made my exodus from corporate america into my own business, but I did make sure I watched and learned before I made the jump.
49. "Also back in the 80's and even 90's here locally.." In response to Reply # 48
In my city (Detroit) the plant dudes and the street dudes was making just as much if not more than the corporate dudes..And it's kind of ALWAYS been that way here until recently. So the black men in my city looked at it like it really did pay to give up your soul working for them white boys. So the need for a black man to even need or want to be in corporate america didn't take effect until like the mid 2000's really (the end of Kwame Kilpatrick also makes the end of a certain mentality of black man in Detroit)
legsdiamond Member since May 05th 2011 79594 posts
Tue May-28-19 02:55 PM
56. "Yeah. I enjoyed the episodes I caught. If it wasn’t for those winters...." In response to Reply # 51
but Detroit is too cold for me and I’m from Pittsburgh.
Shit was brutal.
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
57. "Corporate America is depressing until after 6pm" In response to Reply # 48 Tue May-28-19 04:56 PM by Mori
I have slowly started to ease out of the office world and into a remote work world. When I have to go into the office, commute, do small talk, agree with my boss' hairbrained ideas and smile fakingly (not a word, I know), I feel horrible inside.
I had the worst fibroids when I had to go into the office everyday. I ultimately made a rebellious request to telework...ALOT. I wanted to telework full-time but I knew that my office culture likes to walk around the plantation and see people staring at protected screens.
I hated wearing suits and bras that hurt my underarms. I hated doing my hair in styles that hurt my temples or rushing to work in my car or on the train. I just really got to the point where I thought I would lose it.
I only have 10 more years before I can retire and I am reducing my expenses now, because I am never going back to cubicle, screen, white power affirmation work life again.
I don't blame any black man for wanting to avoid that environment and would never ask him to manipulate himself for an office.
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