Before I feel the ire of the ADOS fan club, lets just call out a few things:

- Do I think American descendants of enslaved Africans should maintain an identify unique to its specific history? ABSOLUTELY - Black people are amongst the most diverse groups on the planet. We all have our unique identities so why shouldn't you?

- If reparations were ever awarded by the US government, do I think it should be awarded to and benefit by American descendants of enslaved Africans ? ABSOLUTELY - anything else wouldn't make sense

No rationale person black or otherwise who would argue against the above. And herein lies its association with #MAGA and #BREXIT

Who would argue against making America great again; Who would argue against £390 million for the NHS; Who would argue against a unique identity for American descendants of enslaved Africans or reparations specific to this group?

What the leaders and snake oil salesmen for each of these movements have in common is a ploy to masquerade its underlying goal of sowing the seeds of division and scapegoating immigrants within the relatively noble objectives highlighted above

With specific regards to ADOS, it supposed founder is Yvette Carnell is particularly anti pan-African. Her and the most hard core fans of the movement (Anne Coulter included) believe:

- foreigners from the African diaspora are standing on the shoulders of American descendants of enslaved Africans
- foreigners from the African diaspora do not share the concerns of American descendants of enslaved Africans
- Pan-africanism in particular are detrimental to the goals of American descendants of enslaved Africans
- American descendants of enslaved Africans are not the kinfolk of continental Africans

REALLY? Anyone truly believe American descendants of enslaved Africans don't get your fair share due to black immigrants. The incarceration rates, the mis-education, crack epidemic, failure of black business, lack of strong black communities - This all due to black immigrants???

No doubt there are foreign blacks who will have benefited from programs designed to benefit American descendants of enslaved Africans but thats the nature of ALL social programs...there will always be free riders.

In terms of civil rights, surely equal rights and the dismantling of Jim Crow laws represent the upholding of human rights. How are ADOS suggesting foreign blacks move in 2019 to compensate for these rights that were been earned by American descendants of enslaved Africans

With respect to Africans, ADOS claim we do nothing but show disrespect to the culture. Sure there may be tension between the communities at times but are we going to forget how badly us uncivilised, fufu eating booty scratches were treated in the past.

Oh well...C'est la vie

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=4&topic_id=13313080&mesg_id=13313080&page=3

-------
"A man who is good enough to shed his blood for his country is good enough to be given a square deal afterwards. More than that no man is entitled, and less than that no man shall have." - TR

get theres before it's all gone. Thinking the pie will continue to grow was 20th century thinking.


What I think is that while first generation black immirgants "outperform" their native cousins, within a generation or two they end up being indistuishable from the native black folks. It shows up statistically and it shows up in the people you know.

What it really reminds me of is Dominicans chasing out Dominican Born People of Haitian Descent on some you aren't a true Dominican.

I just pray that the arc of the universe bends towards justice and remind myself that there has been no leaders in history that we remember fondly for urging people to think smaller or more selfishly.



>Before I feel the ire of the ADOS fan club, lets just call
>out a few things:
>
>- Do I think American descendants of enslaved Africans should
>maintain an identify unique to its specific history?
>ABSOLUTELY - Black people are amongst the most diverse groups
>on the planet. We all have our unique identities so why
>shouldn't you?
>
>- If reparations were ever awarded by the US government, do I
>think it should be awarded to and benefit by American
>descendants of enslaved Africans ? ABSOLUTELY - anything else
>wouldn't make sense
>
>No rationale person black or otherwise who would argue against
>the above. And herein lies its association with #MAGA and
>#BREXIT
>
>Who would argue against making America great again; Who would
>argue against £390 million for the NHS; Who would argue
>against a unique identity for American descendants of enslaved
>Africans or reparations specific to this group?
>
>What the leaders and snake oil salesmen for each of these
>movements have in common is a ploy to masquerade its
>underlying goal of sowing the seeds of division and
>scapegoating immigrants within the relatively noble objectives
>highlighted above
>
>With specific regards to ADOS, it supposed founder is Yvette
>Carnell is particularly anti pan-African. Her and the most
>hard core fans of the movement (Anne Coulter included)
>believe:
>
>- foreigners from the African diaspora are standing on the
>shoulders of American descendants of enslaved Africans
>- foreigners from the African diaspora do not share the
>concerns of American descendants of enslaved Africans
>- Pan-africanism in particular are detrimental to the goals of
>American descendants of enslaved Africans
>- American descendants of enslaved Africans are not the
>kinfolk of continental Africans
>
>REALLY? Anyone truly believe American descendants of enslaved
>Africans don't get your fair share due to black immigrants.
>The incarceration rates, the mis-education, crack epidemic,
>failure of black business, lack of strong black communities -
>This all due to black immigrants???
>
>No doubt there are foreign blacks who will have benefited from
>programs designed to benefit American descendants of enslaved
>Africans but thats the nature of ALL social programs...there
>will always be free riders.
>
>In terms of civil rights, surely equal rights and the
>dismantling of Jim Crow laws represent the upholding of human
>rights. How are ADOS suggesting foreign blacks move in 2019 to
>compensate for these rights that were been earned by American
>descendants of enslaved Africans
>
>With respect to Africans, ADOS claim we do nothing but show
>disrespect to the culture. Sure there may be tension between
>the communities at times but are we going to forget how badly
>us uncivilised, fufu eating booty scratches were treated in
>the past.
>
>Oh well...C'est la vie


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

Naively, I thought we were better than that. How wrong was I

>I just pray that the arc of the universe bends towards justice
>and remind myself that there has been no leaders in history
>that we remember fondly for urging people to think smaller or
>more selfishly.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

ADOS is a common sense approach if you think about it. It basically organizes the black voter bloc as much as possible. These people want tangible policy geared towards their community. If we keeping it a buck all other communities get stuff. The second black people organize everyone gets mad and refuses to support. If we keeping it a buck the vast majority of people complaining wouldn't live in this country if not for the sacrifices of American descendants of slaves.

Some people think Kamala Harris is a disgrace because she openly refused any policy specifically targeted towards ADOS... Would she say this to the Jewish diaspora? Would she say this to the Asian diaspora? The answer is fuck no.

Benefits for everyone don't work because black people get nothing at all for the most part.

but I think the problem with outlining this is that it will be QUICKLY AND RAPIDLY perverted to a point where the original intention will be a whimper of what its really supposed to be about.


who will ruin it? I dunno, right wing folks, white people, black people, etc.

Any idea on the mainstream stage operating in nuance is fucked with.

Any idea on the mainstream stage relating to black people is fucked with.

For this to really work and work well a central figure or body will have to take on the responsibility of maintaining a firm and constant push on the message to be sure it never takes on additional meaning.

***********************************************************
https://soundcloud.com/swageyph/yph-die-with-me

>ADOS is a common sense approach if you think about it. It
>basically organizes the black voter bloc as much as possible.
>These people want tangible policy geared towards their
>community.

As stated in the original post, those who critique the movement do not have any issues with the above objective and why should they


>If we keeping it a buck all other communities get
>stuff. The second black people organize everyone gets mad and
>refuses to support. If we keeping it a buck the vast majority
>of people complaining wouldn't live in this country if not for
>the sacrifices of American descendants of slaves.

No one I know who critiques this movement is mad because you choose to organise. This is the precise point I made in the original post


>Some people think Kamala Harris is a disgrace because she
>openly refused any policy specifically targeted towards
>ADOS... Would she say this to the Jewish diaspora? Would she
>say this to the Asian diaspora? The answer is fuck no.
>
>Benefits for everyone don't work because black people get
>nothing at all for the most part.

I am not here to support Kamala Harris nor do I know much about her platform. She is flat wrong if she refused a specific policy for American descendants of enslaved Africans but you’ll have to point me to a link where these views were expressed

>I am not here to support Kamala Harris nor do I know much
>about her platform. She is flat wrong if she refused a
>specific policy for American descendants of enslaved Africans
>but you’ll have to point me to a link where these views were
>expressed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsB6EWNUcyY

I watched the clip and I disagree with her position. I believe it’s the same stance that Obama took

People should vote for politicians who best represent their interests... that’s a given. And it’s not unheard of to have politicians operating against the expectations of a group they claim to represent.... they are politicians after all

What I don’t get is the leap to all the other rhetoric associated with ADOS, particularly rhetoric pitting you against foreign blacks?

NVM you might be trolling

No empathy for white misery (c) BDot

"root for everybody black haters say that's crazy, wow..."

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

to launch an oddly detailed discussion of a topic no one cares about.

I wonder how easy it is to bundle stuff attacks on old okp accounts?

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

_____________________
puttin' the roota in the toota since 98'

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

we really gonna act like dad wasnt here.

for 20 yrs.

telling us abt this b vs B shit.

right?

we gonna do that?

we really gonna act like binlahab didnt tell yall abt omari obadele and reparations before 9/11 & consistently ever since?

interesting.

"Get ready....for your blessing....."

Asking for a friend.

The actual acronym for the group is gonna have to be hella long to avoid ambiguity.

in the current reparations debate. Folks get emotional/defensive but they really are important distinctions to make. Even politicians are confused lol (eg. Elizabeth Warren recommending expanding reparations to Native Americans)

There's an almost fanatical obsession with gatekeeping in ADOS discourse but none of that energy has been spent establishing clear inclusion and exclusion criteria for exactly who the beneficiaries of restorative measures would be.

And REAL criteria. Not emotional appeals. Traceable to some form of documentation, government database(s), vital statistic records, etc.

For example, specifying "ONLY American Blacks" should benefit from reparations doesn't work, because this would qualify native-born black people who may not have descended from persons historically enslaved on US soil.

However, specifying "ONLY Descendants of Slaves" should benefit from reparations doesn't work either because this would qualify non-Black identifying people who descend from a person historically enslaved on US soil.

If the idea is to keep reparations about the specific justice claims that *BLACK ADOS* have with the US govt pertaining to slavery then, at minimum, shouldn't it be common knowledge to all that the community is talking about:

1) Native-born US Citizens (Proof: US Birth Certificate),

2) who identify as BLACK (Proof: US Census designation)

3) who can provide proof of ancestor enslavement or manumission by a US (eg. deed, manumission record, etc.)


...or something to that effect? But even with inclusion criteria as simple as those, individuals as specified by Buddy in Jay Doz's diaspora post (one ADOS parent, one non-ADOS parent) would qualify as reparations beneficiaries. So it seems another consensus Black ADOS will have to reach is whether they can live with the idea of some beneficiaries having a significant proportion of non-ADOS heritage (which, honestly, seems unavoidable), AND/OR grapple with some tough questions regarding their ethnic identity and inclusion (eg. is ADOS matrilineal then? Patrilineal? Should reparations only be for beneficiaries in possession of ancestry information from both parental lines?? because that seems prohibitive)

There is also the conundrum of black descendants of those who were previously enslaved on US soil but then shipped off to foreign colonies (Liberia, Sierra Leone, Canada, etc).

In one of her recent shows, Carnell scoffed at being asked about foreign descendents of deported DOS. But again, policy-wise, how is all of this not some of the more important distinctions to make for the ADOS cause??

Thanks for breaking that down.

The kids would get 50% or 25% or however it breaks down based on blood. Similar to NA’s. You have to have a certain amount of blood right?

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

sliding scale of benefits, then? Based on documented proof of an enslaved ancestor, and one's proportion of African ancestry? Beneficiaries should also have to obtain a DNA test to qualify for reparations?

That sounds like it would be cost prohibitive for many low-income Black ADOS. Plus a "percentage" could only apply to reparations benefits that are monetary in nature.. checks, grants, tax credits, tuition amounts, etc.

Why does (or would) a sliding scale of benefits have more appeal than simply allowing people (in this case, Buddy's children) with mixed-ADOS heritage full access to reparations provisions??


>The kids would get 50% or 25% or however it breaks down based
>on blood. Similar to NA’s. You have to have a certain amount
>of blood right?
>
>
>
>

only get 50%?

see how stupid the math gets REAL quick?



"Get ready....for your blessing....."

So basically full reparations benefits would only be accessible to people with pure African ancestry born from a union of an ADOS man and ADOS woman.

On its own, the sordid history of US slavery tells us this population of Black Americans is extremely small.

Plus it's quite exclusionary to people who don't have immediate access to/knowledge about their parentage or blood relations, such as adoptees.

without an ounce on non-African blood in their veins. That's not a belief that anyone has.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

Cmon man... don’t do that.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

"...So it seems another consensus Black ADOS will have to reach is whether they can live with the idea of some beneficiaries having a significant proportion of non-ADOS heritage (which, honestly, seems unavoidable),..."

I suspect this will eventually become the consensus. But it won't be a problem, imo. Right now, there aren't that many people walking around who are 1/4 or 1/8th ados, 3/4 or 7/8ths African or West Indian. Most people who are "mixed" like that are either half and half, or they have one or two West Indian ancestors way back.

This is the first time there's a sizable discussion of exactly who ought to qualify, so things are unclear right now. But we'll eventually settle on it, and I suspect the three criteria you laid out above will probably be central to it, even with the difficulties.

has been around before she was born. The NOI been said Black people in the USA are their own unique "tribe" now(and even genetically that can be seen).

Dr Claude Anderson was saying that Black people are their own unique group for years.

Hell Binlad on this messageboard was saying similar Black with a capital B.

I agree with her on some things but the anti pan african this is funny being as tho Black Americans are walking Pan Africans with lineage from several african nations in one people.

I also find the argument weak that Africans directly from the continent are taking positions designated for Black Americans as if the USA government and people who run these institutions don't play favorites and do everything in their power to keep Black American people from being on the bottom of this make shift caste system.

I still bang with the idea of ADOS tho as a self proclaimed Pan African and when the USA pays reparations it should go to the people of predominant African ancestry who have ancestors who were enslaved in the USA and it's territories on the mainland USA(not puerto rico).

<----

Soundcloud.com/aquil84

(HIP HOP)
http://aquil.bandcamp.com

>when the USA pays reparations it should go to
>the people of predominant African ancestry who have ancestors
>who were enslaved in the USA and it's territories on the
>mainland USA(not puerto rico).
>
>

They are US citizens.

Would you also say Black ADOS from Texas should be excluded since it only became part of the US shortly before the Civil War??

It seems incorporating 'statehood' status as a qualifying factor would be a big mistake... I'm thinking all qualifying should remain at the individual level (i.e. Is the beneficiary a US citizen? Does the beneficiary have proof of ancestor's enslavement/manumission? Does the beneficiary identify as Black?, etc).

The reason being, so much slave trade occurred in american colonies prior to the formation of the United States. Nitpicking about statehood could spark legal challenges about whether the US government is culpable for enslavement of Africans on US soil that was facilitated by colonial governments/crowns (i.e. Britain, France, Spain, etc).

Imagine potential beneficiaries being denied reparations benefits because an ancestor was enslaved in Louisiana when it was New France? Statehood dynamics have the potential to introduce a lot of problems for ADOS in that regard, it seems..

half of malcolm x family comes thru the caribbean
same with stokely carmicheal, shirley chisolm etc


so there is a subset of multigenerational descendants of non-US slavery that been here 50 or 100 yrs, and im sure are now intermingled with US bloodlines


which is another reason why doing mostly individual/household checks and 'who gets how much' is a bad idea. the bulk of any payout should be largescale collective solutions

)))--####---###--(((

bunda
<-.-> ^_^ \^0^/
get busy living, or get busy dying.

>which is another reason why doing mostly individual/household
>checks and 'who gets how much' is a bad idea. the bulk of any
>payout should be largescale collective solutions

business grants, free tuitions, land/home ownership programs, etc.

I have ancestry from the Caribbean but I also have ancestry from the USA that were pows under the US government prior to 1863.

Who said anything about checks you are going places I never insinuated.

I don't understand the confusion.

Puerto Rico was a Spanish colony until the kate 1800s after slavery was abolished in the States. They shouldn't be included plus they fence sitters anyway half wanna be Black then spanish then yt. Naw take that up with Spain.

<----

Soundcloud.com/aquil84

(HIP HOP)
http://aquil.bandcamp.com

>I don't understand the confusion.

>Puerto Rico was a Spanish colony until the kate 1800s after slavery was >abolished in the States. They shouldn't be included plus they fence sitters >anyway half wanna be Black then spanish then yt. Naw take that up with >Spain.

come from?

<----

Soundcloud.com/aquil84

(HIP HOP)
http://aquil.bandcamp.com

by US colonizers of the Texas territory. All those people were originally slaves in US states.

And Puerto Rican slaves were enslaved by the Spanish. Slavery had been over for 25 years already by the time Puerto Rico came under the control of the US.

encourage, or even empower, the US govt to disqualify reparations beneficiaries based on the acquisition timeline of "where" documented enslavement took place??

I mean, this issue raises serious, serious, questions that ADOS may one day have to settle with the Supreme Court. For example:

Why should records of enslavement (i.e. deeds, manumission records etc) from colonies prior to said colonies' formation of/inclusion to the United States be any less valid than records of enslavement on that same land that occurred AFTER it officially became part of the US??

Then, OF enslavement that was taking place on colonies before their inclusion/annexation to become part of the US, why should ancestral enslavement that took place in say Virginia when it was still a British colony qualify a beneficiary, but not ancestral enslavement that took place in Texas, or Florida, or Puerto Rico when they were Spanish colonies?? Or Louisiana when it was a French colony??

I also mentioned elsewhere the conundrum of "foreign" descendents of the persons enslaved on US soil that were deported to (former) AMERICAN colonies in Africa (eg. present day Liberia, Sierra Leone), though a US birth requirement could adequately restrict to native born ADOS..

And I'm not challenging any of this to be negative or argumentative, I promise. I'm just a supporter and nerdy about policy stuff in general. But it does seem that harping on statehood dynamics will complicate things for ADOS, not help.

Black Scotians in this, imo. There's a case that they deserve it. I'm still on the fence about my opinion on foreign-born descendants of ados, though.

1. To your question of prior colonies' validity. The claim is against acts that happened in the United States and the immediate predecessor government - the 13 British colonies. Puerto Rican and USVI slaves cannot trace the crime of slavery to the United States or the 13 colonies. They trace their crime to Spain and Denmark, respectively. That's the same reason I would include Black Scotians and maaaaaaybe Americo-Liberians (maybe, because technically the US government helping them leave was a form of reparations.)


2. "...why should ancestral enslavement that took place in say Virginia when it was still a British colony qualify a beneficiary, but not ancestral enslavement that took place in Texas, or Florida, or Puerto Rico when they were Spanish colonies?? Or Louisiana when it was a French colony??"

I spoke to the point about Texas already. And actually, even those 10 or 15 years that Texas was a US state with slavery should qualify all the slaves there anyway. They were slaves under the US flag. Same for Florida. Definitely the same for Louisiana. Not the case for PR.


To me, this stuff isn't the important "problem" with this. Whether you had slave ancestors under the US flag or the colonial flag of any of the 13 colonies is a clear, reasonable, cut and dried standard. The real question is what to do about people with one slave ancestor who married white 200 years ago and now their descendants are effectively white, like Obama's mother, who descended from John Punch (the first legal slave-for-life). They technically qualify, but including them as ados feels wrong.

Maryland Virginia, and Louisiana ports and moved inland.

Florida and Texas were Spanish colonies and under constant war especially FL with Black runaways.

A simple history lesson makes this very clear.

<----

Soundcloud.com/aquil84

(HIP HOP)
http://aquil.bandcamp.com

reparations?

We not discounting for folks white lineage?

So you can have a white momma, or grandma, and get 100% but a Jamaican mama or grandma, and only get 50% or 75%?



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

<----

Soundcloud.com/aquil84

(HIP HOP)
http://aquil.bandcamp.com

post about reparations eligibility for people of mixed-ADOS heritage. He brought up his own children as an example since he and his wife are an ADOS + non-ADOS(Caribbean) couple.

Their example was brought up again further up in this post, and Legs proposed a sliding-scale scheme of partial benefits for reparations beneficiaries of mixed-ADOS parentage, with percentages adjusted further according to proportion of African ancestry.

It looks like Buddy is pointing out that a beneficiary born from a "pure" ADOS-ADOS union could (presumably) have a lower proportion of African ancestry than a beneficiary born from a mixed-ADOS union (eg. a union such as an ADOS + non-ADOS(Caribbean) couple like he and his wife).


edit: sorry to butt in, I just feel partially responsible for resurrecting his question from the other post in here lol. Buddy can totally speak for himself/his fam.

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

american black folks rallied against apartheid, donated to the haiti earthquake relief, signed up to fight/volunteer with ethiopia in their war against italy almost a hundred years ago, and on and on


why does our claim against the US govt make everybody else get their panties in a bunch?


carnell and ppl on her side see the relationship as one-sided, but imo that comes from just being unfamiliar with "everyday africans" and not visiting the continent, and going off the (in)actions of govts or some (mostly 1st gen) immigrants.

what black america really wanted from africa, for those that do, is simply formalized acknowledgement,partnerships, homeland/ease of resettlement... it would cost them little, and the leaders and AU for the most part are incapable of even that. African union wouldnt even approve haiti's request to be a full AU member

so many view it as a waste of effort. i dont agree, but look around and the only africans at the african street fairs are the ones drumming on stage and the ones selling stuff

)))--####---###--(((

bunda
<-.-> ^_^ \^0^/
get busy living, or get busy dying.

As a pan-Africanist myself neither I nor any other like minded folks I know have an issue with American descendants of enslaved Africans claiming it’s unique identity or reparations.

The pushback relates specifically to the anti African and pan-African sentiment which we see as unnecessarily divisive

I’ve had to take a step back and look at this again because no matter how I phrase the above, I get the same responses (I.e. why are the pan-Africans mad)

As an African myself, the fact that we are different has always been PATENTLY obvious. Different To the extent that, even at a nationality level, it’s possible for a Nigerian to have more cultural similarities to a Maliian than to a fellow Nigerian. And this dynamic is commonplace across Africa

So the fact that we are different is moot to me. I consider myself a Pan-African INSPITE of our differences, recognising while we are different, at a global level we have a common cause and a unified approach is the only way forward. This doesn’t mean we shouldn’t focus on our individual group level issues nor does it mean we can’t support each other

Based on the ADOS rhetoric, I can only assume these differences were never obvious to them and they are only just waking up to that reality (hence the push back on Africans and pan-Africanism)

I just listed multiple examples of how the relationship has been, or is perceived to be, one sided

You responded to literally none of that, and went to explain how everybody's different

Lol fam, we know that there are differences. that is not the true source of any division (since the "dividers" already had their minds made up). Acknowledging that we have differences doesn't really address the gaps in the relationship or what's being done// what could be done to improve the situation

)))--####---###--(((

bunda
<-.-> ^_^ \^0^/
get busy living, or get busy dying.

My bad for not responding to those specific points. I responded to what I perceived to be your central point:

- "the pushback by the rest of pan africa is very strange"
- "why does our claim against the US govt make everybody else get their panties in a bunch?"

This may not have been the intent but I read your message as follows (I paraphrase):

"Black America have done so much to support pan-African causes and yet pan-Africans push back against our claim against the US government"

No black person I've engaged with on this issue (pan-africanist or otherwise) opposes your claim for reparations. We support it 1000%, yet the discourse is typically characterised by proponents of ADOS as if we oppose it

The pushback I and others have is against this characterisation and the anti African/pan-African sentiment, which brings me to your specific points I failed to respond to.

I agree - Africa(ns) should do more to support the diaspora. For example, I understand a request by Haiti to join the African Union was rejected. That said, things are changing slowly. During the troubles in Haiti, the Senegalese offered Haitians an opportunity to resettle in Senegal. More recently the Ghanaian government declared 2019 the year of return, with programs/schemes targeted at the diaspora.

Further back, in the 50's and 60's African leaders such as Nkrumah were inspired by the likes of George padmore and W.E.B Dubois and invited them to Ghana to help push the pan-African agenda

That aside, a legitimate criticism of the African effort cannot be made without considering the socio-economic condition of sub-saharan Africa, which is one ravaged by poverty and conflict.

Not one African country is featured in the World banks top 50 nations GDP per capita (PPP) index. Relatively large countries such as Nigeria, Congo, Kenya, Ghana don't even feature in the top 100. Not to mention, these countries are barely half a century old and barely meet the definition of a nation, given the multi-ethnic political tensions resulting from the colonial division of the continent.

Some studies have suggested black America, considered as a nation would rank approximately 44th on that index. As such, to many Africans, black Americans live in the shiny white house on the hill. If asked, most Africans would choose to immigrate to US given the opportunity and in-spite of the perceived injustices.

From a media narrative perspective, the US is omnipresent and its image as a paradise of sorts is frequently emphasised, whereas Africa when it is covered, is typically portrayed as a basket case. This also contributes to how black people view each other and our needs

It's only the dawn of the internet era that has opened up more opportunities for regular folk within the diaspora to connect and have these conversations so we can better empathise with our individual struggles

There is a much deeper conversation to be had but I don't want to go on forever.

My central point to the ADOS movement is ultimately, our condition has a global dynamic and as such requires a global perspective in terms of a solution. This does not mean we cannot fight for our individual causes. Furthermore, we should have each others back in doing so and the unnecessary division needs to stop. If I had to guess, i'd say you share that view

Peace and blessings...i'm out

>The pushback I and others have is against this
>characterisation and the anti African/pan-African sentiment,
Other than the one-sidedness/"what has pan Africanism done for us" mentality,
This is also related to ideas/fear of scarcity and Africans "taking" the opportunities that Blk folk fought and died for. Mixed with a little trumpy/American xenophobia&arrogance sprinkled on top. There is some merit to the argument but there is also a lot of places where we dropped the ball, which allow us to miss out on what we should have.

.
>
>Not one African country is featured in the World banks top 50
>nations GDP per capita (PPP) index. Relatively large countries
>such as Nigeria, Congo, Kenya, Ghana don't even feature in the
>top 100. Not to mention, these countries are barely half a
>century old and barely meet the definition of a nation, given
>the multi-ethnic political tensions resulting from the
>colonial division of the continent.
>
This is why I mentioned offering land or citizenship, or even acknowledgment. Something that Africa can give freely at practically no cost. Blks been showing up in Ghana since practically day1 and 50 years later still caught up in all kinda red tape tryna get citizenship. and ghana is the premier leader on this issue. But yea I think most of the folks on the American side of the discussion don't really understand the scale of the poverty on the continent, since we poor here too. That affects the baseline of where they approach the discussion

>. If asked, most Africans would choose to
>immigrate to US given the opportunity and in-spite of the
>perceived injustices.
>
There is also the theory, that blacks in America have spent hundreds of years pushing back on inept governments, and any African countries opening their doors en masse would be letting in agitators that will fight against the 20yr presidential terms, corruption, lack of development, etc.

Not sure if I fully agree with that, but I do think there is an underlying issue of the poor leadership of many African nations, along with the absence of any "leadership council" to negotiate for #ADOS. African govts are selling their resources to China and France, but did they bother reaching out on if any partnerships cld be made with black investors in America?


>
>It's only the dawn of the internet era that has opened up more
>opportunities for regular folk within the diaspora to connect
>and have these conversations so we can better empathise with
>our individual struggles
>
Agreed, which is why I don't even mind all the social media arguments between the groups, as long as it's not just trading insults.


>
. Furthermore, we should
>have each others back in doing so and the unnecessary division
>needs to stop. If I had to guess, i'd say you share that view
>
Correct

)))--####---###--(((

bunda
<-.-> ^_^ \^0^/
get busy living, or get busy dying.

more of your liberties and pull the wool further over your eyes" - The Majority Powers That Be

-------------------------------

A lot of you players ain't okay.

We would have been better off with an okaycivics board instead of an okayactivist board

Please let us know if you have the answer.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

>Please let us know if you have the answer.




"Get ready....for your blessing....."

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

Because

https://www.linkedin.com/in/abiolaoke/

LOLOLOL.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

--
Sometimes you have to look reality in the face and say 'No!'
-Ben (Reaper)

If you need any help, don't. Hesitate to ask.

reparations "readiness".. for lack of a better term. If anyone is not bored of this post yet, please educate/entertain me on this:


If you had to guess, what proportion of Black Americans/ADOS possess proof of ancestral enslavement (eg. copy of a deed, manumission record, etc.)??

And how difficult is it to acquire such proof? Like is there a lot of variation across different states in terms of how well maintained these records are?? Or is it mostly private organizations that maintain them, like historical societies and such?

Because I was just thinking some more about different types of proof/documentation people could show to become eligible for reparations benefits, and found myself wondering at about what level of readiness is the US Black American/ADOS population.

And IF readiness IS low, are there any groups or organizations whose mandate it is to help families obtain such documentation? Or if there aren't, do you guys think one would need to be created? Or would it be best to tap an existing org like NAACP or whoever that has an aligned mission, plus sufficient funding and capacity to organize such an effort??

Because it seems even though obtaining proof of ancestral enslavement would likely be a requirement for reparations eligibility, obtaining possession of that proof wouldn't necessarily need to wait until a reparations program was in place... similar to how registration to vote occurs before an election, or enrolling for ACA occurs before seeking healthcare. Right? And do you think anti-reparations/racist powers that be could work to suppress accessibility to enslavement records if the reparations movement gained ground?? (a horrifying, but not unrealistic, risk to consider unfortunately)

And last thing I want to ask about: Enumeration.

The 2020 US Census is coming up. And there are some changes occurring with race and ethnicity data collection (Note: Hansi Lo at NPR does excellent reporting on this topic):

- https://twitter.com/hansilowang/status/1101227172516294656
- https://www.npr.org/2018/01/26/580865378/census-request-suggests-no-race-ethnicity-data-changes-in-2020-experts-say

^^This census in particular presents a very good opportunity to get an accurate headcount of the Black American/ADOS population and relevant demographics (eg age distributions, geographic distributions, etc) both nation-wide and within states, which would be critical for congress (or other entities, like think tanks or government agencies) to draw up appropriation proposals for reparations.

So my last question is: Is there coordinated discussion among Black Americans/ADOS about how to respond on the 2020 Census, to ensure the population is properly identified and enumerated?

>reparations "readiness".. for lack of a better term. If
>anyone is not bored of this post yet, please educate/entertain
>me on this:
>
>
>If you had to guess, what proportion of Black Americans/ADOS
>possess proof of ancestral enslavement (eg. copy of a deed,
>manumission record, etc.)??


Yea I was gonna bring this up to u earlier.
I always thought u were Caribbean, then after these threads i thought maybe #ados, but the mentioning of deeds was a tell, liiike... yea There are no deeds. There are census records typically with age, gender, and first name only, and family histories scribbled in old bibles. >40M blk ppl and 0.0001% prolly have some kinda paperwork like that. I'm sure a slightly higher number of actual paperwork exists, but not held by us.
But genealogy research and DNA testing is also something I would have on my reparations wishlist. DNA to identify tribal matches before middle passage as well as to identify 5th gen cousins and siblings that were separated throughout the time here
>
>And how difficult is it to acquire such proof? Like is there a
>lot of variation across different states in terms of how well
>maintained these records are?? Or is it mostly private
>organizations that maintain them, like historical societies
>and such?

Even the census records or death notices require guess work and good faith estimates to match up who you think might be the same person 30 years later. Prior to emancipation there are no birth records, marriage certificates, etc. And for the next 50-100 yrs after that the records are very poor, false family histories, folk changing names, etc.

For the most part it is likely easier to ID who hasn't been here since 1865 vs everyone who has.

Next years census is also supposed to break out "blackness" into multiple ethnicities so we'll see who claims what, I guess.


>
>Because I was just thinking some more about different types of
>proof/documentation people could show to become eligible for
>reparations benefits, and found myself wondering at about what
>level of readiness is the US Black American/ADOS population.

NCOBRA, among other groups, has been around way longer than this #ADOS twitter wave, even tho lotta folk act like it's brand new, and/or they are now leaders of the mvmt. So some tenants have been around a while. In regard to establishing the plaintiff class on a individual/ household level, there is very little readiness unless genealogy research is the 1st govt step.
>
??
>
>Because it seems even though obtaining proof of ancestral
>enslavement would likely be a requirement for reparations
>eligibility,

I'm not sure it would need to be tho. Or not in every case. Ex if cultural schools were established as one form of payout, and u want to send your 1/16 or even 1/2 non#ADOS kids to learn black history every Saturday for 3yrs, thats fine by me. But If u want to apply for govt contracts with #ados businesses, the bar needs to be a little higher. Ex, Family census records going as far back as can be found
>
>
>And last thing I want to ask about: Enumeration.
>- https://twitter.com/hansilowang/status/1101227172516294656
>-
>https://www.npr.org/2018/01/26/580865378/census-request-suggests-no-race-ethnicity-data-changes-in-2020-experts-say
>
>
>So my last question is: Is there coordinated discussion among
>Black Americans/ADOS about how to respond on the 2020 Census,
>to ensure the population is properly identified and
>enumerated?

The issue with 2020, and all previous census, is blk folks higher propensity to living in the margins of society, as well as flat out rejection of US govt. Transient folk ain't counted, nor are the ppl that distrust or ignore whatever plan the feds are putting together (including trusting a census). Our numbers will have a higher margin or error

With theoretically trillions of dollars at stake, I don't think any of the problems are insurmountable, but it's a longterm, 10-50 Year solution

)))--####---###--(((

bunda
<-.-> ^_^ \^0^/
get busy living, or get busy dying.

I think your idea proposing the govt cover/subsidize genealogy research costs for Black Americans is really good, too.

And re: availability of deeds, manumission records, etc.. I must have incorrectly assumed that they're somewhat accessible after reading about people here and there having copies... For example, I read recently about Justin Fairfax taking a copy of his ancestor's manumission record to his swearing-in as Lt. Governor of VA. If the availability is really as poor as you state that in and of itself is an injustice, perhaps the govt should pay for sorting that out too..

But ya - I figured my non-ADOSness would show lol. To be honest though, despite not being Black Am/ADOS.. I am extraordinarily supportive of and passionate about this cause for reasons I'm not sure I've figured out yet. I hope to support any way I can. The reparations talk just touches on a broad swath of issues I care deeply about, I think... injustice, identity, ethnicity, family history, disparities, policy, etc. I also just believe in black groups respecting and supporting each other (especially when going up against shared oppressors!)

I'm a nerd about data too though, and so in some ways it bothers me even from a technical perspective that Black Americans/ADOS have not been adequately represented in population statistics and other arenas, given the unique history and needs of the population. Most statistics about blacks in the US contain a ton of bias in this regard and institutions have been lazy about accounting for black ethnicities (among others). Even the most minor adjustments for the upcoming census are long overdue, but only if sustained (and not abused for profiling). But you raise excellent points about the challenges there too.

I didn't know that abt Fairfax, but it led me to this

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/virginia-politics/poised-to-make-history-justin-fairfax-got-a-powerful-reminder-of-his-own-heritage/2018/01/27/825fe454-0217-11e8-8acf-ad2991367d9d_story.html

Thx 4 that.
Amazing story, but also note the number of events needed to fall in line to get us here.

-wealthy black landowners during slave era
-wealthy blacks in 2019 that crossed paths by chance
-being free in the south before emancipation
-church involvement as a key factor to make the connection, and the church/cemetery/verbal history lasting 200yrs
-the old bible I told u about!!

-And the rarity of it that it warrants a write up in the news

>
On the census, I probably heard "don't trust/fill out the census" at the same time as first hearing what a census was


And ok, cool. All data nerds and #FoADOS (friends of ADOS) are welcome lol

>I
>I'm

)))--####---###--(((

bunda
<-.-> ^_^ \^0^/
get busy living, or get busy dying.

We found our slave schedule (with my 3x great-grandfather's actual name) just this past summer, and my father had to hire a researcher in Georgia to go into the local records offices to find the documents. (It turns out my great-grandfather --->>>grand uncle ----->>>> cousin are named after the slavemaster - yikes.)

I suspect alot of people could likely find some type of proof through Freedmen's Bureau records, though I was never able to.

https://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/ny-oped-birthright-for-blacks-20190226-story.html

This full-circle concept could be the start of something monumental, as there remains the issue of a disconnect between Africans and African-Americans. Perhaps, in the spirit of Killmonger, this can be addressed in the form of state-sponsored heritage trips. Much in the way that Israel offers free trips to Jewish people within the diaspora, certain African countries can and should do the same for African people in America. (The premise is slightly different, but the act of goodwill is the same.)

)))--####---###--(((

bunda
<-.-> ^_^ \^0^/
get busy living, or get busy dying.