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MEAT
Member since Feb 08th 2008
22268 posts
Wed Jun-20-18 09:11 AM

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"Struggling with normalcy as I learn about “tender age centers” (swip..."


  

          

And again, not seeking advice on how to cope.
It’s reasonable to struggle with mundanity as you read about current horrors.


https://apnews.com/dc0c9a5134d14862ba7c7ad9a811160e



APNewsBreak: Youngest migrants held in 'tender age' shelters

By GARANCE BURKE AND MARTHA MENDOZA

34 minutes ago

Trump administration officials have been sending babies and other young children forcibly separated from their parents at the U.S.-Mexico border to at least three "tender age" shelters in South Texas, The Associated Press has learned.

Lawyers and medical providers who have visited the Rio Grande Valley shelters described play rooms of crying preschool-age children in crisis. The government also plans to open a fourth shelter to house hundreds of young migrant children in Houston, where city leaders denounced the move Tuesday.

Since the White House announced its zero tolerance policy in early May, more than 2,300 children have been taken from their parents at the U.S.-Mexico border, resulting in a new influx of young children requiring government care. The government has faced withering critiques over images of some of the children in cages inside U.S. Border Patrol processing stations.

Decades after the nation's child welfare system ended the use of orphanages over concerns about the lasting trauma to children, the administration is starting up new institutions to hold Central American toddlers that the government separated from their parents.

"The thought that they are going to be putting such little kids in an institutional setting? I mean it is hard for me to even wrap my mind around it," said Kay Bellor, vice president for programs at Lutheran Immigration and Refugee Service, which provides foster care and other child welfare services to migrant children. "Toddlers are being detained."

Bellor said shelters follow strict procedures surrounding who can gain access to the children in order to protect their safety, but that means information about their welfare can be limited.

By law, child migrants traveling alone must be sent to facilities run by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services within three days of being detained. The agency then is responsible for placing the children in shelters or foster homes until they are united with a relative or sponsor in the community as they await immigration court hearings.

But U.S. Attorney General Jeff Sessions' announcement last month that the government would criminally prosecute everyone who crosses the U.S.-Mexico border illegally has led to the breakup of migrant families and sent a new group of hundreds of young children into the government's care.

The United Nations, some Democratic and Republican lawmakers and religious groups have sharply criticized the policy, calling it inhumane.

Not so, said Steven Wagner, an official with the Department of Health and Human Services.

"We have specialized facilities that are devoted to providing care to children with special needs and tender age children as we define as under 13 would fall into that category," he said. "They're not government facilities per se, and they have very well-trained clinicians, and those facilities meet state licensing standards for child welfare agencies, and they're staffed by people who know how to deal with the needs — particularly of the younger children."

Until now, however, it's been unknown where they are.

"In general we do not identify the locations of permanent unaccompanied alien children program facilities," said agency spokesman Kenneth Wolfe.

The three centers — in Combes, Raymondville and Brownsville — have been rapidly repurposed to serve needs of children including some under 5. A fourth, planned for Houston, would house up to 240 children in a warehouse previously used for people displaced by Hurricane Harvey, Mayor Sylvester Turner said.

Turner said he met with officials from Austin-based Southwest Key Programs, the contractor that operates some of the child shelters, to ask them to reconsider their plans. A spokeswoman for Southwest Key didn't immediately reply to an email seeking comment.

"And so there comes a point in time we draw a line, and for me, the line is with these children," Turner said during a news conference Tuesday.

On a practical level, the zero tolerance policy has overwhelmed the federal agency charged with caring for the new influx of children who tend to be much younger than teens who typically have been traveling to the U.S. alone. Indeed some recent detainees are infants, taken from their mothers.

Doctors and lawyers who have visited the shelters said the facilities were fine, clean and safe, but the kids — who have no idea where their parents are — were hysterical, crying and acting out.

"The shelters aren't the problem, it's taking kids from their parents that's the problem," said South Texas pediatrician Marsha Griffin who has visited many.

Alicia Lieberman, who runs the Early Trauma Treatment Network at University of California, San Francisco, said decades of study show early separations can cause permanent emotional damage.

"Children are biologically programmed to grow best in the care of a parent figure. When that bond is broken through long and unexpected separations with no set timeline for reunion, children respond at the deepest physiological and emotional levels," she said. "Their fear triggers a flood of stress hormones that disrupt neural circuits in the brain, create high levels of anxiety, make them more susceptible to physical and emotional illness, and damage their capacity to manage their emotions, trust people, and focus their attention on age-appropriate activities."

Days after Sessions announced the zero-tolerance policy, the government issued a call for proposals from shelter and foster care providers to provide services for the new influx of children taken from their families after journeying from Honduras, El Salvador, Guatemala and Mexico.

As children are separated from their families, law enforcement agents reclassify them from members of family units to "unaccompanied alien children." Federal officials said Tuesday that since May, they have separated 2,342 children from their families, rendering them unaccompanied minors in the government's care.

While Mexico is still the most common country of origin for families arrested at the border, in the last eight months Honduras has become the fastest-growing category as compared to fiscal year 2017.

During a press briefing Tuesday, reporters repeatedly asked for an age breakdown of the children who have been taken. Officials from both law enforcement and Health and Human Services said they didn't know how many children were under 5, under 2, or even so little they're non-verbal.

"The facilities that they have for the most part are not licensed for tender age children," said Michelle Brane, director of migrant rights at the Women's Refugee Commission, who met with a 4-year-old girl in diapers in a McAllen warehouse where Border Patrol temporarily holds migrant families. "There is no model for how you house tons of little children in cots institutionally in our country. We don't do orphanages, our child welfare has recognized that is an inappropriate setting for little children."

So now, the government has to try to hire more caregivers.

The recent call for proposals by the federal government's Office of Refugee Resettlement said it was seeking applicants who can provide services for a diverse population "of all ages and genders, as well as pregnant and parenting teens."

Even the policy surrounding what age to take away a baby is inconsistent. Customs and Border Protection field chiefs over all nine southwest border districts can use their discretion over how young is too young, officials said. And while Health and Human Services defines "tender age" typically as 12 and under, Customs and Border Protection has at times defined it as 5 and under.

For 30 years, Los Fresnos, Texas-based International Education Services ran emergency shelters and foster care programs for younger children and pregnant teens who arrived in the U.S. as unaccompanied minors. At least one resident sued for the right to have an abortion in a high-profile case last March.

For reasons the agency did not explain, three months ago the government's refugee resettlement office said it was ending their funding to the program and transferred all children to other facilities. This came weeks before the administration began its "zero tolerance" policy, prompting a surge in "tender age" migrant children needing shelter.

In recent days, members of Congress have been visiting the shelters and processing centers, or watching news report about them, bearing witness to the growing chaos. In a letter sent to Attorney General Jeff Sessions on Tuesday, a dozen Republican senators said separating families isn't consistent with American values and ordinary human decency.

On Tuesday, a Guatemalan mother who hasn't seen her 7-year-old son since he was taken from her a month ago sued the Trump administration. Beata Mariana de Jesus Mejia-Mejia was released from custody while her asylum case is pending and thinks her son, Darwin, might be in a shelter in Arizona.

"I only got to talk to him once and he sounded so sad. My son never used to sound like that, he was such a dynamic boy," Mejia-Mejia said as she wept. "I call and call and no one will tell me where he is."

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
Don’t look away
Jun 20th 2018
1
This is being used as a deterrent.. and I think it will work
Jun 20th 2018
2
yeah i'm sure his neighborhood is just swarming with gang activity.
Jun 20th 2018
3
Kilmeade IRL
Jun 20th 2018
9
If your options were watch your children beheaded over a drug war
Jun 20th 2018
4
Meet the story of Mario from Honduras.
Jun 20th 2018
7
THIS IS THE PART THATS LEFT OUT OF THE ARGUMENT.
Jun 20th 2018
10
But it’s not just the cruelty, it’s the oppositional ambivalence
Jun 20th 2018
12
      I think as a nation we're burnt out.
Jun 20th 2018
18
      It takes zero effort to care. It takes more effort dismiss.
Jun 20th 2018
19
           this is false
Jun 20th 2018
32
                Action + Response takes more effort than Action
Jun 20th 2018
34
                     not if the action + response = posting on a message board
Jun 20th 2018
35
                          I shared a story. Added swipe.
Jun 20th 2018
36
      In that post, you said the events and politics of these days are affecti...
Jun 20th 2018
28
           Did I? I believe I said I was struggling with daily bs vs horror. Let me...
Jun 20th 2018
29
                *sigh* whatever man. I'll leave you alone
Jun 20th 2018
30
                     Thanks Dr Oz.
Jun 20th 2018
31
of course I'm taking option 2
Jun 20th 2018
11
      What are the other options legs? Because that’s what people are
Jun 20th 2018
13
           sure.. and maybe options wasn't the right word
Jun 20th 2018
14
                True: Everyone coming to America is not fleeing certain death
Jun 20th 2018
16
Well, they might join MS-13 . . .
Jun 20th 2018
5
It’ll either be join or die.
Jun 20th 2018
8
Chopping off someone's feet for jaywalking could be a deterrent
Jun 20th 2018
37
it's not going to work and it makes zero fucking sense
Jul 13th 2018
128
Absolutely do NOT forget this shit
Jun 20th 2018
6
I guess they didn't really mean it when they said all lives matter
Jun 20th 2018
15
man, why am I seeing ads for camping trips on a Patriot ship
Jun 20th 2018
17
there's no more shame in the world..everything is or can be justified
Jun 20th 2018
20
A week or so back on this site I brought up an old post where someone
Jun 20th 2018
23
“Stephen Actually Enjoys Seeing Those Pictures at the Border”
Jun 20th 2018
21
DHS Secretary Kristjen Nielsen is drafting an executive action for Presi...
Jun 20th 2018
22
For optics. This is internal policy, it could end with an email immediat...
Jun 20th 2018
24
It kinda sounds like the Cruz bill
Jun 20th 2018
25
      Because this is all politics to them. A near complete abandonment of
Jun 20th 2018
26
           Right, "at least they mostly won't be split up in hell camps"
Jun 20th 2018
27
the people spoke out and Trump changed his tune
Jun 20th 2018
43
      Have you read the text yet?
Jun 20th 2018
45
           the text for the executive action?
Jun 20th 2018
47
                Me neither. Which is why I hedge on saying he’s fixing or has fixed th...
Jun 20th 2018
49
                     fixed it how?
Jun 20th 2018
50
                          RE: fixed it how?
Jun 20th 2018
52
                               so you believe that keep the families together indefinitely
Jun 20th 2018
53
                                    I believe it introduces a host of other problems
Jun 20th 2018
54
                                         you typed that it's worse
Jun 20th 2018
55
                                              He’s making a bad situation worse, yes
Jun 20th 2018
57
                                              Worse
Jun 20th 2018
58
                                              I got it, you think it's worse
Jun 20th 2018
61
                                                   😶
Jun 20th 2018
62
                                                   2. It doesn’t address the problem that’s already occurred.
Jun 20th 2018
74
                                                   it could potentially be worse
Jun 20th 2018
78
                                              Worse
Jun 21st 2018
83
People who would do this to children would do anything to anyone. Before...
Jun 20th 2018
33
so now what?
Jun 20th 2018
38
I don’t really know.
Jun 20th 2018
40
      I feel that.
Jun 20th 2018
42
           Being only a few generations removed from slavery, I don’t think about
Jun 20th 2018
44
Family Values (c) GOP
Jun 20th 2018
39
Everything that sounds good about Republican policy should have
Jun 20th 2018
41
to the OP: what do you consider "normal" (or "normalcy")?
Jun 20th 2018
46
Eh. That’s a conversation (for me) for another day
Jun 20th 2018
48
      cool
Jun 20th 2018
51
           especially if you are Black in America
Jun 20th 2018
56
Now that the baby jails are gone, it's time for family internment camps!
Jun 20th 2018
59
"so you believe that keep the families together indefinitely is worse th...
Jun 20th 2018
60
this is part of what i was saying in your other post
Jun 20th 2018
63
      Eric Cantors loss changes the whole shit up
Jun 20th 2018
64
      Yes, we need to look at the whole thing
Jun 20th 2018
65
      i mean, in texas specifically
Jun 20th 2018
69
      treat the disease but some symptoms require immediate attention
Jun 20th 2018
73
Motherfucker - pay attention - the REPUBLICANS are against this
Jun 20th 2018
66
      Who here doesn't think Republicans are the ones doing this?
Jun 20th 2018
67
           No, it's ONLY The Republicans that are doing this
Jun 20th 2018
71
                Yeah, but it seems that you may have responded to the wrong post.
Jun 20th 2018
75
                Again, nobody is saying BOTH PARTIES ARE THE SAME
Jun 20th 2018
80
I feel you on this, man.
Jun 20th 2018
68
nothing new..
Jun 20th 2018
70
Cite your sources.
Jun 20th 2018
72
people really cant stop repeating this exhaustingly incorrect shit
Jun 20th 2018
76
THIS IS NEW
Jun 20th 2018
77
Tell that to the Haitian folks under Clinton.
Jun 22nd 2018
96
      Well that was a little different
Jul 13th 2018
127
did you actually check that or did you hear it and repeat it
Jun 20th 2018
79
seen variations of this nonsense at least 7 times on my timeline today
Jun 20th 2018
81
cats listen to these dirtbag left podcasts
Jun 20th 2018
82
brother in-laws brother, wife and two children
Jun 21st 2018
86
      the hell? Why the hell would they do this?
Jun 21st 2018
88
      they offered next of kin to be able to take the kids
Jun 21st 2018
93
      which is not what this is at all.
Jun 22nd 2018
100
           Economic hardship is not grounds for asylum
Jun 23rd 2018
106
                hold up
Jul 11th 2018
112
                     They aren't discerning between legal asylum claims and illegal
Jul 11th 2018
119
                          nah that dumb ass got sent back
Jul 25th 2018
131
remember when effa claimed this was the same/same
Oct 08th 2020
138
kids are forcibly given range of psychotropic drugs at Shiloh
Jun 21st 2018
84
I can’t read the lawsuit from my phone easily
Jun 21st 2018
85
This man begged ICE to let him stay in jail rather than be deported
Jun 21st 2018
87
Melania Trump went to the detention center.....
Jun 21st 2018
89
Did you see what she wore? No, really?
Jun 21st 2018
90
      wow
Jun 21st 2018
91
      Saw that and assumed it was photoshopped
Jun 21st 2018
92
           same same. i have to turn off my sense of 'WTF'
Jun 21st 2018
94
Twitter thread: It is shockingly difficult for immigration attorneys to ...
Jun 21st 2018
95
https://twitter.com/Mikel_Jollett/status/1010238593560743936
Jun 22nd 2018
97
The name alone is just creepy as fuck to me, esp given DT is Pres
Jun 22nd 2018
98
Conservatives over the moon over this crying little girl photo thing
Jun 22nd 2018
99
stop giving them any credit.
Jun 22nd 2018
102
      who said i'm giving them credit?
Jun 22nd 2018
103
           they're "over the moon"
Jun 23rd 2018
104
                do you not know what over the moon means or are you misunderstanding
Jun 23rd 2018
105
                lol
Jun 25th 2018
107
                classic example of non-conservatives squabbling amongst themselves
Jun 25th 2018
108
that jacket she wore was made by Zara
Jun 22nd 2018
101
I received a briefing yesterday where Trump officials refused to commit ...
Jun 30th 2018
109
Statists gonna state.
Jul 03rd 2018
110
The Trump Administration says that ONLY FOUR of 102 separated children u...
Jul 10th 2018
111
yet most liberals have moved onto some other outrage of the day
Jul 13th 2018
129
Defense contractor detained migrant kids in vacant Phoenix office buildi...
Jul 11th 2018
113
I haven’t been on my computer much.
Jul 11th 2018
114
I understand better now
Jul 11th 2018
115
      This is what Republicans BELIEVE now
Jul 11th 2018
116
      Got it. The issue is, they are breaking laws to do it
Jul 11th 2018
117
           Republicans don't care about laws
Jul 11th 2018
120
                BHO challenged the Flores agreement and was detaining families
Jul 11th 2018
121
                     Obama attempted to shore up his bona fides while working for better
Jul 11th 2018
122
      I just want to see the whole shit burned down.
Jul 11th 2018
118
           Grappling with this daily
Jul 11th 2018
123
                I tiptoe around it with my wife. She’s great but not a fighter
Jul 11th 2018
124
                     I'm so thankful for people like that, but I feel like
Jul 11th 2018
125
real deal vulture capitalism
Jul 12th 2018
126
U.S. says 463 migrant parents may have been deported without kids
Jul 23rd 2018
130
Zero-Tolerance and Family Separations
Aug 07th 2018
132
Aug 17th 2018
133
I’ve been stress eating and drinking for the last few months.
Aug 17th 2018
134
‘We Need to Take Away Children,’ No Matter How Young, Justice Dept. ...
Oct 08th 2020
135
People wonder why I would hope for someone's death
Oct 08th 2020
136
      LOL yep. Lost a fbook "friend" over this exact thing yesterday.
Oct 08th 2020
137

MEAT
Member since Feb 08th 2008
22268 posts
Wed Jun-20-18 09:14 AM

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1. "Don’t look away "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Lawyers and medical providers who have visited the "tender age" shelters described play rooms of crying preschool-age children in crisis...

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
79777 posts
Wed Jun-20-18 09:14 AM

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2. "This is being used as a deterrent.. and I think it will work"
In response to Reply # 0


          

but then again, the risk must be worth the shot at the reward.

Where will these kids go?

Fox News host Kilmeade said these kids will end up joining MS13. He's seen it happen in his neighborhood. Where the fuck does this dude live? Fucking liar

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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KiloMcG
Member since Jan 01st 2008
27561 posts
Wed Jun-20-18 09:17 AM

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3. "yeah i'm sure his neighborhood is just swarming with gang activity."
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

*rolls eyes*

  

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Marauder21
Charter member
49516 posts
Wed Jun-20-18 09:41 AM

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9. "Kilmeade IRL"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

https://frinkiac.com/meme/S08E19/814045.jpg?b64lines=TVMtMTMgSVMgSU4gTVkgTkVJR0hCT1JIT09EIApNQUtJTkcgR0FOR1MgQU5EIEkgU0FXIE9ORSAKT0YgVEhFIEdBTkdTIEFORCBUSEUgTVMtMTMgCk1BTiBMT09LRUQgQVQgTUUu

------

12 play and 12 planets are enlighten for all the Aliens to Party and free those on the Sex Planet-maxxx

XBL: trkc21
Twitter: @tyrcasey

  

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MEAT
Member since Feb 08th 2008
22268 posts
Wed Jun-20-18 09:21 AM

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4. "If your options were watch your children beheaded over a drug war"
In response to Reply # 2
Wed Jun-20-18 09:21 AM by MEAT

  

          

That you had nothing to do with. Or flee for asylum knowing that you’ll most likely be separated but they’ll live what would you do.
Those are the options
Stay and be murdered or have your loved ones murdered in gruesome ways
Or flee.
That’s it.
Those are your two options


Israel is mowing people down with automatic riffles, it’s not deterring people from fleeing.

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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MEAT
Member since Feb 08th 2008
22268 posts
Wed Jun-20-18 09:36 AM

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7. "Meet the story of Mario from Honduras. "
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

“He fled with his sister who was the victim of domestic violence from a former policie officer, when she pushed back and tried to press charges he was beaten by a gang of five men, his home was shot up, and so he fled with his five year old daughter...

https://twitter.com/repdonbeyer/status/1009156537166848002?s=21

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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double negative
Member since Dec 14th 2007
22151 posts
Wed Jun-20-18 09:43 AM

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10. "THIS IS THE PART THATS LEFT OUT OF THE ARGUMENT. "
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

sorry for the caps, but I really am screaming this part.

this is the part that people keep leaving out.

it reminds me of an explanation about abortion I once read: “No one wants an abortion as she wants an ice cream cone or a Porsche. She wants an abortion as an animal, caught in a trap, wants to gnaw off its own leg.”

It is straight up scary how cold hearted these people are.

But you know, I get it. They don't give a shit about Puerto Rico, Sandy Hook victims, Parkland, 9/11 first responders, etc. They are out of fucks to give.

***********************************************************
https://soundcloud.com/swageyph/yph-die-with-me

  

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MEAT
Member since Feb 08th 2008
22268 posts
Wed Jun-20-18 09:48 AM

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12. "But it’s not just the cruelty, it’s the oppositional ambivalence "
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

In a thread of me saying I’m struggling yesterday, the sites response was not, dear god this IS horrible ... it’s been pleas for me to disconnect.
Which I completely refuse to do.
I talked to my wife yesterday (child psychologist) she said she’s been fighting back crying for weeks at this point from the stories.
I don’t think people are quite grasping that this is state sponsored child abuse in the name of the United States.
Your tax dollars are funding more war and child abuse than anything for you and yours
That’s a god damn fucking problem.

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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double negative
Member since Dec 14th 2007
22151 posts
Wed Jun-20-18 10:15 AM

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18. "I think as a nation we're burnt out. "
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

we've been screaming and marching since 2016

we've been watching things not start to not matter anymore

so I think the sense is "if none of these things from the past two years resulted in a consequence...whats the point of trying now?"

***********************************************************
https://soundcloud.com/swageyph/yph-die-with-me

  

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MEAT
Member since Feb 08th 2008
22268 posts
Wed Jun-20-18 10:23 AM

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19. "It takes zero effort to care. It takes more effort dismiss. "
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

It’s ok to say that “this thing bothers me”
It takes more effort to say “this thing bothers me, but what can I do about it”

Louis CK (😬) had a joke a few years back that as a culture we no longer allow ourselves to feel anything. That a sad song comes on the radio and we just flip it to something this.

This is a moment to evaluate your humanity.

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
79777 posts
Wed Jun-20-18 11:24 AM

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32. "this is false"
In response to Reply # 19


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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MEAT
Member since Feb 08th 2008
22268 posts
Wed Jun-20-18 11:26 AM

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34. "Action + Response takes more effort than Action "
In response to Reply # 32
Wed Jun-20-18 11:29 AM by MEAT

  

          

So no. It’s not.

Look. Just say this subject makes you uncomfortable and you’d rather try to pick apart me as a poster than engage in it.
All the other rah rah is just too time consuming.
You wanna talk about state sponsored child abuse or nah?

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
79777 posts
Wed Jun-20-18 11:43 AM

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35. "not if the action + response = posting on a message board"
In response to Reply # 34


          

shit's awful, sad and a black eye for America...

so what's the solution?

Is this just another vent post?

you haven't offered any solutions, posted any numbers, emails to petitions we can sign.

you just scolding folks for not being as outraged or emotional.



....

oh, and you can also skip over my post if it upsets you.





****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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MEAT
Member since Feb 08th 2008
22268 posts
Wed Jun-20-18 11:51 AM

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36. "I shared a story. Added swipe. "
In response to Reply # 35
Wed Jun-20-18 11:55 AM by MEAT

  

          

There was zero ask from me after that aside from discussing the situation.
I didn’t ask y’all how to deal with the reality ... y’all tried to give me advice
I didn’t prescribe any actions ... you’re now asking me about that.

I shared a news story, most people that responded discussed said news story. I engaged.

It’s only the folks that keep centering this on me that I’m bothered by.
Whether I’M moved or not isn’t really relevant.
Whether YOURE moved or not isn’t really relevant.
So the folks that keep bringing it back to me. My question and response is in that vain. Don’t ignore the child abuse story because you don’t like the poster. There are dozens of people that clicked this post and KIM
There are hundreds of thousands of millions of people in the streets right now keeping it moving.
And I have zero problems with that. Because they’re not working to actively police my perspective.

There’s children being separated from their families right now as a means of deterrent. It likely violates international law, definitely violates sensibilities, and it’d be amazing if it stopped.

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
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Wed Jun-20-18 11:04 AM

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28. "In that post, you said the events and politics of these days are affecti..."
In response to Reply # 12


          

To the point that you can't live normally.

It's not "oppositional ambivalence" when people say maybe you should take a break from seeing the things which are disturbing you so much. They are sincere common sense suggestions.

Why put yourself through that self inflicted torture (unless you are actively working on the problem, in which case you choice)?


>In a thread of me saying I’m struggling yesterday, the
>sites response was not, dear god this IS horrible ... it’s
>been pleas for me to disconnect.
>Which I completely refuse to do.
>I talked to my wife yesterday (child psychologist) she said
>she’s been fighting back crying for weeks at this point from
>the stories.
>I don’t think people are quite grasping that this is state
>sponsored child abuse in the name of the United States.
>Your tax dollars are funding more war and child abuse than
>anything for you and yours
>That’s a god damn fucking problem.

_______________________________________

  

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MEAT
Member since Feb 08th 2008
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Wed Jun-20-18 11:09 AM

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29. "Did I? I believe I said I was struggling with daily bs vs horror. Let me..."
In response to Reply # 28
Wed Jun-20-18 11:17 AM by MEAT

  

          

Me.

>I’m struggling to “live normally” when the world feels so chaotic<——— please note the use of quotation marks.

>I don’t have a well developed ability for cognitive disconnection <——- background on my perspective for next sentences.

>So I’m having a very tough time going from “this report is dumb and I don’t feel like responding to this email” <———- me descirbing a mundane wholly irrelevant task

>To infants are being physically pulled off of their mothers breasts because white nationalist are running the country and congress reps are complicit in not checking this human rights monstrosity. <——— me describing a morally horrific situation.


Maybe reading compreshension isn’t your strong suit.
I also reiterated this point multiple times in that post
Look If you’re too much of a god damn fucking coward to stare into the abyss that is children being abused by the government as cruel policy then fine but don’t come at me over semantics as a means to avoid your own dereliction of moral reflection you feckless prick.

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
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30. "*sigh* whatever man. I'll leave you alone"
In response to Reply # 29


          


>
>Maybe reading compreshension isn’t your strong suit.
>I also reiterated this point multiple times in that post
>Look If you’re too much of a god damn fucking coward to say
>that children being abused by the government affects you then
>fine but don’t come at me over semantics as a means to avoid
>your own dereliction of moral reflection you feckless prick.

_______________________________________

  

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MEAT
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31. "Thanks Dr Oz. "
In response to Reply # 30


  

          

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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11. "of course I'm taking option 2"
In response to Reply # 4


          

and that's why I said the risk might still be worth it even with this new law.

I'm not sure those are the only 2 options.

just pointing out how they are using this to deter and I doubt it will stop folks from trying



****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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MEAT
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13. "What are the other options legs? Because that’s what people are "
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

communicating their options are.
Do we not owe it to their humanity to take them at their word?

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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legsdiamond
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14. "sure.. and maybe options wasn't the right word"
In response to Reply # 13


          

I don't think everyone coming to America is fleeing death is my point

wanting a better life is a good enough reason for some and worth the risk.



****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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MEAT
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16. "True: Everyone coming to America is not fleeing certain death"
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

Also True: that is wholly irrelevant to my current concerns of separating (possibly permanently) small children from their parents, in ways that violate international law, recommendations of doctors, and are an affront to my personal moral compass.

I do not, at any point further, wish the take away from that conversation.

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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Marauder21
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5. "Well, they might join MS-13 . . . "
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

after they get sent back.

Just like how it was started.

------

12 play and 12 planets are enlighten for all the Aliens to Party and free those on the Sex Planet-maxxx

XBL: trkc21
Twitter: @tyrcasey

  

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MEAT
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8. "It’ll either be join or die. "
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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Mynoriti
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37. "Chopping off someone's feet for jaywalking could be a deterrent"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

that will work, if we're following the line of logic that extreme inhumane measures are effective crime fighting tools.

  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
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128. "it's not going to work and it makes zero fucking sense"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

for the people saying "WE SEPARATE FAMILIES WHEN WE SEND PEOPLE TO JAIL" well, for openers, that's one of many things that need to be reformed in our criminal justice system (not that it happens at all but that it happens in haphazard, cavalier or unnecessary fashion) and these people haven't been convicted of anything yet. hell in some cases they may not have even committed a crime and in more still they turned themselves over willfully to have their case heard.

to say that it's going to work simply ignores the reality of how dire the situation is in places like el salvador and honduras (not to mention the role we played in trashing them). it also sort of implies that our policies are effectively communicated across borders, which they are not. threatening people with superfluous and heinous shit doesn't make their situation any less desperate, and they may or may not even be aware of what will happen now.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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Marauder21
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6. "Absolutely do NOT forget this shit"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Because it WILL come back (that's assuming it's even temporarily defeated)

------

12 play and 12 planets are enlighten for all the Aliens to Party and free those on the Sex Planet-maxxx

XBL: trkc21
Twitter: @tyrcasey

  

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makaveli
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15. "I guess they didn't really mean it when they said all lives matter"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

not even kids. it's sickening.

“So back we go to these questions — friendship, character… ethics.”

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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17. "man, why am I seeing ads for camping trips on a Patriot ship"
In response to Reply # 0


          

on OKP

they need to chill with these key word ads

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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ambient1
Member since May 23rd 2007
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Wed Jun-20-18 10:35 AM

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20. "there's no more shame in the world..everything is or can be justified"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

nothing will change minds because....why should they...can't shame em

Optics don't help anymore as they did in the civil rights era

so ...in my opinion...unless we(people) develop a new strategy to admonish the inhumane, prepare to become sadder or number

=======================================
Coolin...

  

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MEAT
Member since Feb 08th 2008
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Wed Jun-20-18 10:49 AM

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23. "A week or so back on this site I brought up an old post where someone"
In response to Reply # 20


  

          

Had jokes because of my bird dying. I said I don’t mess with dude from that point on and people here were questioning me
The 20 year old rapper that got killed the other day beat his girlfriend over the course of their relationship, there’s currently an unnecessarily long conversation in that post and on twitter dot com about forgiveness
This country loves forgiveness and second chances and idolizes redemption.

There’s not nearly a healthy enough dose of “I don’t fuck with you”
It’s a weird culture for me. Being from Texas, you put who you are out front, there’s not a lot of comeback and change. But a large part of society, wants a second chance and will give a second chance to shit that shouldn’t have happened I the first place.

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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MEAT
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21. "“Stephen Actually Enjoys Seeing Those Pictures at the Border”"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

White House senior policy adviser Stephen Miller has all but become the face of the issue, a development that even supporters of Trump’s “zero-tolerance” position say is damaging the White House. “Stephen actually enjoys seeing those pictures at the border,” an outside White House adviser said. “He’s a twisted guy, the way he was raised and picked on. There’s always been a way he’s gone about this. He’s Waffen-SS.”

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/06/stephen-miller-family-separation-white-house

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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j0510
Member since Feb 02nd 2012
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22. "DHS Secretary Kristjen Nielsen is drafting an executive action for Presi..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://twitter.com/CBSNews/status/1009460926884601857

  

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MEAT
Member since Feb 08th 2008
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Wed Jun-20-18 10:51 AM

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24. "For optics. This is internal policy, it could end with an email immediat..."
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

Additionally what are the mechanizations of reunification?
What are the timelines?
How are they validating that this happens?
What checks are in place to prevent recurrence?

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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Marauder21
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25. "It kinda sounds like the Cruz bill"
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

Which really doesn't answer any of these questions.

------

12 play and 12 planets are enlighten for all the Aliens to Party and free those on the Sex Planet-maxxx

XBL: trkc21
Twitter: @tyrcasey

  

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MEAT
Member since Feb 08th 2008
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26. "Because this is all politics to them. A near complete abandonment of "
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

Governance.
They want to rule. They want to make laws. They want to enact their vision. They want to live in the hypothetical.

What they do not want to do is deal with reality or consequences.

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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Marauder21
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27. "Right, "at least they mostly won't be split up in hell camps""
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

Is the absolute least these people can do and they deserve no credit for it.

------

12 play and 12 planets are enlighten for all the Aliens to Party and free those on the Sex Planet-maxxx

XBL: trkc21
Twitter: @tyrcasey

  

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makaveli
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43. "the people spoke out and Trump changed his tune"
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

of course it shouldn't have been happening in the first place. but still, the people spoke out and forced Trump to act.

“So back we go to these questions — friendship, character… ethics.”

  

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MEAT
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45. "Have you read the text yet?"
In response to Reply # 43


  

          

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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makaveli
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47. "the text for the executive action?"
In response to Reply # 45


  

          

I have not, have you?

“So back we go to these questions — friendship, character… ethics.”

  

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MEAT
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49. "Me neither. Which is why I hedge on saying he’s fixing or has fixed th..."
In response to Reply # 47


  

          

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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makaveli
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50. "fixed it how?"
In response to Reply # 49
Wed Jun-20-18 01:24 PM by makaveli

  

          

it's not that I trust him, but his reason for doing it is because it looks bad politically, and people won't be fooled by some fake change. this is why I believe that families will no longer be separated. I'm sure the update won't be perfect but it will be better than what is happening right now.

“So back we go to these questions — friendship, character… ethics.”

  

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MEAT
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52. "RE: fixed it how?"
In response to Reply # 50


  

          

In that what’s being reported is that he’s signing an executive order keeping families together indefinitely.
Which goes against a court order that says you can’t detain kids indefinitely
So we’ll either have the court order vacated and be right back to this
Or kids detained indefinitely.

Which is a host of other problems.

So what’s being reported as him acting, is worse. And it doesn’t address the already separated families.

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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makaveli
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53. "so you believe that keep the families together indefinitely"
In response to Reply # 52
Wed Jun-20-18 01:34 PM by makaveli

  

          

is worse than separating them?

“So back we go to these questions — friendship, character… ethics.”

  

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MEAT
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54. "I believe it introduces a host of other problems"
In response to Reply # 53
Wed Jun-20-18 01:36 PM by MEAT

  

          

And doesn’t address the kids that have already been separated from their families.

Which
I believe
Is exactly what I typed.

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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makaveli
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55. "you typed that it's worse"
In response to Reply # 54


  

          

go ahead and take a look, it's still there.

“So back we go to these questions — friendship, character… ethics.”

  

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MEAT
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57. "He’s making a bad situation worse, yes"
In response to Reply # 55
Wed Jun-20-18 01:45 PM by MEAT

  

          

1. The idea that it’s indefinite detention OR separating families is false.
2. It doesn’t address the problem *thats already occurred.
3. It creates a host of additional problems

*4. If he takes said action that makes correcting the results of 2&3 significantly worse.

Worse.

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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MEAT
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58. "Worse"
In response to Reply # 55


  

          

“Mr. Trump’s executive order would seek to get around an existing 1997 consent decree, known as the Flores settlement, that prohibits the federal government from keeping children in immigration detention — even if they are with their parents — for more than 20 days.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/20/us/politics/trump-immigration-children-executive-order.html

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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makaveli
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61. "I got it, you think it's worse"
In response to Reply # 58


  

          

“So back we go to these questions — friendship, character… ethics.”

  

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MEAT
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62. "😶"
In response to Reply # 61


  

          

“Since the new Trump EO says its "maintain family unity" policy only applies "to the extent permitted by law," and the admin claims the law does not allow them to maintain family unity, did anything actually just change?”

https://twitter.com/rudalev/status/1009521208965124096?s=21

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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MEAT
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74. "2. It doesn’t address the problem that’s already occurred. "
In response to Reply # 61


  

          

An HHS official tells @weijia that there will NOT be special efforts made to reunite children who have already been separated from their families bc of the Zero Tolerance Policy, despite Trumps EO. Process will proceed for minors currently in the unaccompanied children program.

https://twitter.com/jaxalemany/status/1009558537733857281?s=21

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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Mynoriti
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78. "it could potentially be worse"
In response to Reply # 61


  

          

given this administration

the trump admin's rationale for child separation was that parents were using their kids and the 20 day limit as a way to buck the system. a catch and release sort of thing.

this order seems to mean they can stay together but can be detained indefinitely

  

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MEAT
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83. "Worse"
In response to Reply # 55


  

          

https://thinkprogress.org/supreme-court-cruel-historically-ignorant-partisans-e21e8a62afff/


The Trump administration’s position in Trump v. Hawaii, the Muslim Ban case, is that “aliens outside the United States seeking a visa or initial admission have no constitutional rights at all regarding entry into the country.” Ponder that argument for a moment, as you also consider this picture of children, who were separated from their families and forced to live in a cage by the United States government.

.
.
.
.


The story of Gobitis was a story of authoritarian elements within the general populace viewing a Supreme Court decision as a license to lash out at a disfavored minority group. The story of Crawford, by contrast, is the story of anti-democratic elements who wield the official power of the government deciding to push the envelope after the Supreme Court signaled that they were likely to get away with it.

Trump v. Hawaii is a case about an authoritarian, anti-democratic president. And it is a case about a racist, who does not feel bound by the Constitution, and who likes to lash out at vulnerable immigrants.

There’s no telling what he may do if the Supreme Court emboldens him further.

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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MEAT
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33. "People who would do this to children would do anything to anyone. Before..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

People who would do this to children would do anything to anyone. Before this is over, they will be called to do worse.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/06/child-separation/563252/?utm_source=atltw

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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PG
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38. "so now what?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

why struggle to maintain normalcy?

  

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MEAT
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40. "I don’t really know. "
In response to Reply # 38


  

          

Right now. I’m just sad and empathetic.
I don’t know where that’ll take me. But I hurt for these events more than anything else before.

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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PG
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42. "I feel that."
In response to Reply # 40


  

          

but it's just not clear where the will of the people really stands/shakes out... too much conflict... besides I'm also not clear on whether the will of the people holds weight.

  

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MEAT
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44. "Being only a few generations removed from slavery, I don’t think about"
In response to Reply # 42


  

          

The will of the people much. Never have.
I focus (to a fault) near totally about protecting me and mine and doing what it takes to get there.
Something about this broke something in me.
A part of me has been upset with the response from pundits and moderates.
That they’ve given these people so many passes
And that if they’re not willing to aggressively check THIS behavior then there’s no bottom to what we’ll have to witness in our lifetimes.

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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bentagain
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39. "Family Values (c) GOP"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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J_Stew
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41. "Everything that sounds good about Republican policy should have"
In response to Reply # 39


          

(for white people) after it.

  

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Selah
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46. "to the OP: what do you consider "normal" (or "normalcy")?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

personally, i work to keep things in perspective

examples:

- currently the government is separating families and putting kids in cages

historically, there are many examples of families broken up - with a variety of justifications - and at one point actually put people in ZOOs for entertainment ( https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b&ei=UpQqW83uCYuh8APLiYXQCQ&q=human+zoo )

- we (in this country) have had public executions - lynchings to be specific - used a centerpieces for public social gatherings at which pictures were sold as postcards and regularly transferred by the postal service

- we have children right today being bred and trained for sale as sexual objects - and people celebrating it as some weird kind of choice thing (on some: let erebody do what they wanna, who are you to deny....)

the depth of human depravity isn't deepening or even getting wider

to me THIS kind (the kind of stuff you have been posting about) is VERY MUCH normal. tragic, and very normal

it just manifests in waves

often when you point the heinousness of out (or just have a visceral, frustrated reaction), you will get responses to ignore it, or a resigned "why bother acting/caring, cuz it ain't gonna change"

none of this is *good* by any means.

personally, again, I have committed to doing what I personally can to stem examples lest I be overwhelmed by the existence and totality of it all

  

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MEAT
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48. "Eh. That’s a conversation (for me) for another day"
In response to Reply # 46


  

          

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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Selah
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51. "cool"
In response to Reply # 48


          

if nothing else I believe it's better to get that stuff out of you than to hold it in

each of us has our own dance we do so we can be under water and not get wet

  

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legsdiamond
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56. "especially if you are Black in America"
In response to Reply # 51


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Marauder21
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59. "Now that the baby jails are gone, it's time for family internment camps!"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

The 40's are back, baby

------

12 play and 12 planets are enlighten for all the Aliens to Party and free those on the Sex Planet-maxxx

XBL: trkc21
Twitter: @tyrcasey

  

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MEAT
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60. ""so you believe that keep the families together indefinitely is worse th..."
In response to Reply # 59


  

          

separating them?” (c) 🙄

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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rob
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63. "this is part of what i was saying in your other post"
In response to Reply # 60


  

          

people keep getting sucked into the theatrics of all this and making it about the separation being the problem.

our entire asymmetric attitude about the border is the problem. racism and the justice system as a whole remain problems.

liberals need to realize that there's a reason these "obama did it" arguments are coming up he did...he tried to fix it and blamed congress and that's fair, but he built his rhetoric around problematic narratives and built the detention infrastructure too.

the proper response isn't "but at least families weren't being SEPARATED in a way that upsets our sensibilities. at least it wasn't BABIES." that's not a very strong argument, for several reasons.

we need to look at #metoo for this one. trump & co might have the worst soundbites, but it's a deeper and more widespread problem than right vs. left.

  

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MEAT
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64. "Eric Cantors loss changes the whole shit up "
In response to Reply # 63


  

          

And I hate politics so much for issues like that.
An issue of defining a national identity is off the table for the foreseeable future because it may not win an election.
Power over everything is no way to govern.

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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Marauder21
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65. "Yes, we need to look at the whole thing"
In response to Reply # 63


  

          

The shit doesn't go away with Trump since the infrastructure is still in place. If ICE/Homeland Security don't get scrapped (to start, your larger points also stand), this can and will happen again.

------

12 play and 12 planets are enlighten for all the Aliens to Party and free those on the Sex Planet-maxxx

XBL: trkc21
Twitter: @tyrcasey

  

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rob
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69. "i mean, in texas specifically"
In response to Reply # 65


  

          

the founding myths of texas are all about which borders and laws white people (*et al.) have a right to disregard. the bullshit broke sam houston twice and he only had to live through the first four decades.

when this was dropping on the news, there were thousands of people driving past mcallen to cross the border at progreso to buy viagra and antibiotics. i'm sure many of them have very strong beliefs about the integrity of our border and protectionist trade policies.

  

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Mynoriti
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73. "treat the disease but some symptoms require immediate attention"
In response to Reply # 63


  

          

  

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handle
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66. "Motherfucker - pay attention - the REPUBLICANS are against this"
In response to Reply # 59


          

And they've stopped EVERY SINGLE EFFORT to bring about immigration reform in the last 15 years - even when Bush was president and he wanted it to get done.

Republicans are the problem.

We could get this cruel, inhumane and abusive system changed to a bureaucracy where mistakes will still happen - but cause damage on a much much smaller scale.

------------


Gone: My Discogs collection for The Roots:
http://www.discogs.com/user/tomhayes-roots/collection

  

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Marauder21
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67. "Who here doesn't think Republicans are the ones doing this?"
In response to Reply # 66


  

          

------

12 play and 12 planets are enlighten for all the Aliens to Party and free those on the Sex Planet-maxxx

XBL: trkc21
Twitter: @tyrcasey

  

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handle
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71. "No, it's ONLY The Republicans that are doing this"
In response to Reply # 67


          

That's the point.

It's not "the system" or "both parties or out-of-tocu Washington - its ONLY THE FUCKING REPUBLICANS.



------------


Gone: My Discogs collection for The Roots:
http://www.discogs.com/user/tomhayes-roots/collection

  

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MEAT
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75. "Yeah, but it seems that you may have responded to the wrong post. "
In response to Reply # 71


  

          

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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Marauder21
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80. "Again, nobody is saying BOTH PARTIES ARE THE SAME"
In response to Reply # 71


  

          

Rather that two things can be true.

1. US immigration policy is fundamentally cruel and damaged, and that this has not been changed in a structural way regardless of which party is in the White House. This is bad for many reasons, chiefly because

2. One of our two major political parties (the Republican party, if you weren't sure what side I was on) is an open white supremacist party hell-bent on dragging the entire nation into a fascist ethnostate. When they take the White House (which they have a good chance to do in any given election year seeing as how we have two parties who can actually win) and are allowed access to the controls of an already bad system, they can do all sorts of atrocities with it.

Yes, THIS is the Republicans, and that can't be forgotten. But kicking the Republicans out of office (by voting for Democrats, which is the only way to remove a Republican, even if you don't feel particularly romantic about it) is one step. Because if we maintain the status quo once Democrats are in charge, there's nothing preventing this from happening again.

------

12 play and 12 planets are enlighten for all the Aliens to Party and free those on the Sex Planet-maxxx

XBL: trkc21
Twitter: @tyrcasey

  

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flipnile
Member since Nov 05th 2003
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68. "I feel you on this, man."
In response to Reply # 0


          

DEEP rage sparked.

  

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Effa
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70. "nothing new.."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I saw this happen to other people during the obama years.

it wasn't in texas, but its the same thing. parents got shipped back asap, kids were held in a holding cell until they determined they were going to send them back(and not stay with a relative/sponsor).

maybe its happening more now under trump, but we know he has an agenda(he wants that wall, the more they detain the better case he'll have because holding people costs money) either way this isn't a new thing. Someone told me today that during the Obama years this wouldn't happen and i didn't know how to respond because this exact thing happened to people i know during that same time.

Stay woke, everyone is trying to rewrite history.

  

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MEAT
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72. "Cite your sources. "
In response to Reply # 70


  

          

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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Mynoriti
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76. "people really cant stop repeating this exhaustingly incorrect shit"
In response to Reply # 70


  

          

  

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handle
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77. "THIS IS NEW"
In response to Reply # 70


          

The news is that THEY'RE DOING IN PURPOSE TO INFLICT PAIN ON PEOPLE.

Under Obama, Bush, Clinton etc there were places in the system that needed to be improved - but in now way where they doing it to punish parents and kids to use a deterrent.

The difference is imperfect government vs. purposefully inflicting pain on children.

------------


Gone: My Discogs collection for The Roots:
http://www.discogs.com/user/tomhayes-roots/collection

  

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Shaun Tha Don
Member since Nov 19th 2005
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96. "Tell that to the Haitian folks under Clinton. "
In response to Reply # 77


          

Rest In Peace, Bad News Brown

  

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handle
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127. "Well that was a little different"
In response to Reply # 96


          

He did move 21,000 to Gauntamo in 93. (The exodus started in 91 under Bush.)

Then - Clinton change policies to allow refugees to apply for asylum at sea - where before they had to apply in Haiti - which the Haitian government was preventing.

So yes, for 2 years it was not a great situation - but - it was never proposed as a model to how immigrant (both illegal/asylum/illegal) was to be handled.

The Clinton situation (and Obama's later) was a poor response to real problem. No denying that.

Trump's policy is DESIGNED as an intentionally cruel, arbitrary, and racist implementation of new policies designed specifically to inflict "punishment" (more like cruelty) onto people, and enrich private companies.

The Republicans use incompetence as a shield to hide their real intentions. Imagine if Clinton separated families and did not have a plan to reunite them. That's what Trump is doing RIGHT NOW.

Babies are in cages AND for profit prisons/camps are making billions now.

I hear it cost $700 a day to hold a child and their parents separately - whereas supervised release of the asylum seekers cost closer to $6 a day and there's a 96% chance the seeker arrives in court on the day they are supposed to.

Make no mistakeTrumps policy is DESIGNED to purposefully:
Terrorize immigrants
Enrich private prisons

It's a little different.

If you vote for a 3rd party candidate now -or do not vote at all - then you are voting for Trump's policies.


------------


Gone: My Discogs collection for The Roots:
http://www.discogs.com/user/tomhayes-roots/collection

  

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Rjcc
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79. "did you actually check that or did you hear it and repeat it"
In response to Reply # 70


          


www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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Mynoriti
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81. "seen variations of this nonsense at least 7 times on my timeline today"
In response to Reply # 79


  

          

in most cases people did a pretty good job of calmly explaining distinctions in detail, and shutting them down, but it keeps popping up like weeds

  

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Rjcc
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82. "cats listen to these dirtbag left podcasts"
In response to Reply # 81


          

and forget those dudes hate obama. I'm not saying they don't also hate trump, but they're not about facts and accuracy.


we don't have to make obama God, but if somebody claims he did something too, then shit fucking look into it first

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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Effa
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86. "brother in-laws brother, wife and two children"
In response to Reply # 79


  

          

about 5-6 years ago. flew in from greece with no visas etc, were detained, the parents were shipped back immediately, and the kids stayed in some holding cell alone waiting a few days before immigration "sorted things out".

I wish one of you would tell me this never happened.

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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88. "the hell? Why the hell would they do this? "
In response to Reply # 86


          

real question, what could be the reason for splitting kids up and sending them back a few days later?

Do they put out feelers for adoption or get paid in some way threw taxes when they do this?

There has to be some type of shitty transaction going on

I heard companies are making millions off these camps.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Effa
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93. "they offered next of kin to be able to take the kids"
In response to Reply # 88


  

          

in our case. thinking logically i thought if you don't have permission to come here you just don't have permission to come, why make the offer to the kids?

the answer is always money. always.

  

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Rjcc
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100. "which is not what this is at all."
In response to Reply # 86


          

so why claim it's the same?

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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bentagain
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Sat Jun-23-18 11:20 AM

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106. "Economic hardship is not grounds for asylum "
In response to Reply # 100


  

          

Most of the people arriving at the southern border/ports of entry

Are fleeing violence and/or war

I'm going to assume that was not the case for fleeing Greece...?

Doesn't sound the same to me...also...

BHO was known as the deporter in chief

Sending families back isn't the same either

I would imagine if some of these families were given the option of leaving the child with a sponsor/family member...they would jump at the opportunity

...comparatively...

The scenario described plays out with the family being separated and indefinitely detained today

That's obviously not what happened and not the same...although still traumatizing I'm sure

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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Effa
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112. "hold up"
In response to Reply # 106


  

          

>Most of the people arriving at the southern border/ports of
>entry
>
>Are fleeing violence and/or war
>
>I'm going to assume that was not the case for fleeing
>Greece...?
>
>Doesn't sound the same to me...also...


So you're saying all these people(lets pretend and say 50%) getting detained are fleeing some Mad Max Dystopian society? how gullible is everyone?

and if thats the case and theirs obviously a lot of people fleeing specific countries maybe someone should check that out?



>BHO was known as the deporter in chief
>
>Sending families back isn't the same either
>
>I would imagine if some of these families were given the
>option of leaving the child with a sponsor/family
>member...they would jump at the opportunity

smh


>...comparatively...
>
>The scenario described plays out with the family being
>separated and indefinitely detained today
>
>That's obviously not what happened and not the same...although
>still traumatizing I'm sure
>


Trying to enter a country without the right documentation will get you in trouble. Doesn't matter who is the president.



  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
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119. "They aren't discerning between legal asylum claims and illegal"
In response to Reply # 112
Wed Jul-11-18 01:58 PM by bentagain

  

          

immigration

I posted in a different thread...I think...the legal process for starting an asylum claim...is crossing the border and standing on US soil

That's the process...you don't need paperwork...you need to actually be on US soil to start an asylum claim

We are detaining people at the ports of entry...which is actually denying them a legal right

I have no idea what the percentage is...but if you listen some of the stories coming out of this ordeal...the Trumpster administration is moving the goalposts for the credible fear claims

...which is actually forcing people who are seeking asylum, to then try and cross the border illegally at a different entry point...

So to the point of my reply to your post...fleeing Greece, which to my knowledge is not currently in a violent internal conflict, and recently saw their economy crash (economic hardship)...is not the same as what we are seeing at the southern border

i.e. your brother-in-law (and family) wouldn't be able to prove credible fear in order to apply for asylum

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credible_fear

that's why they got shipped back (I'm guessing)

That's not the case for whatever percentage of people are seeking asylum and have credible fear claims

Does the percentage really matter with a zero tolerance policy

Zero tolerance = they have no rights.

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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Effa
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131. "nah that dumb ass got sent back"
In response to Reply # 119
Wed Jul-25-18 03:53 PM by Effa

  

          

because him and his wife overstayed their visa the last time they came.

i didn't even remotely say they were seeking any asylum. what i was trying to say is detaining and separating families has already been going on.

  

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Rjcc
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138. "remember when effa claimed this was the same/same"
In response to Reply # 70


          

meanwhile the white house admin is in meetings explicitly laying out how it isn't.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
79777 posts
Thu Jun-21-18 08:25 AM

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84. "kids are forcibly given range of psychotropic drugs at Shiloh"
In response to Reply # 0


          

https://www.yahoo.com/news/u-centers-force-migrant-children-drugs-lawsuit-030012069.html

Immigrant children are being routinely and forcibly given a range of psychotropic drugs at U.S. government-funded youth shelters to manage their trauma after being detained and in some cases separated from parents, according to a lawsuit.

Children held at facilities such as the Shiloh Treatment Center in Texas are almost certain to be administered the drugs, irrespective of their condition, and without their parents' consent, according to the lawsuit filed by the Los Angeles-based Center for Human Rights & Constitutional Law.

The Shiloh center, which specializes in services for children and youths with behavioral and emotional problems, did not respond immediately to a request for comment.

Taking multiple psychotropic drugs at the same time can seriously injure children, according to the filing, which highlights the need for oversight to prevent medications being used as "chemical straight jackets," rather than treat actual mental health needs.

ORR-run centers unilaterally administer the drugs to children in disregard of laws in Texas and other states that require either a parent's consent or a court order, the filing said.

The lawsuit seeks a shift in ORR policies to comply with state laws and prevent the prolonged detention of children.

Some youths at Shiloh reported being given up to nine different pills in the morning and six in the evening and said they were told they would remain detained if they refused drugs, the lawsuit said.

Some said they had been held down and given injections when they refused to take medication, the lawsuit said.

One mother said neither she nor any other family member had been consulted about medication given to her daughter, even though Shiloh had their contact details. Another mother said her daughter received such powerful anti-anxiety medications she collapsed several times, according to the filing.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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MEAT
Member since Feb 08th 2008
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Thu Jun-21-18 09:03 AM

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85. "I can’t read the lawsuit from my phone easily"
In response to Reply # 84


  

          

Seems that all cases have been since 2017
Fuck this country

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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naame
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87. "This man begged ICE to let him stay in jail rather than be deported"
In response to Reply # 0
Thu Jun-21-18 12:44 PM by naame

  

          

Check out this heartbreaking video of a man saying he's better off in jail because the gangsters in Honduras would kill him.
https://twitter.com/nowthisnews/status/1009187320266874880

  

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Kira
Member since Nov 14th 2004
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Thu Jun-21-18 01:57 PM

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89. "Melania Trump went to the detention center....."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://twitter.com/laurenduca/status/1009864507777220608?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fs9e.github.io%2Fiframe%2Ftwitter.min.html%231009864507777220608

I hope the DOJ stopped the policy of providing baby seats in order to secure consent from the baby. How does a baby give consent in a legal trial? OKLegal I need help understanding this, please?

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
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Thu Jun-21-18 02:03 PM

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90. "Did you see what she wore? No, really? "
In response to Reply # 89
Thu Jun-21-18 02:07 PM by PimpTrickGangstaClik

          

What in the world is going on? First, I'm supposed to believe she wears cheap ass Zara jackets.
Second, I'm supposed to believe that she picked this one to wear randomly and nobody brought up the message on the back?

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/newpix/2018/06/21/19/4D7E7C4D00000578-5870891-Who_is_the_message_for_The_First_Lady_wore_a_39_Zara_military_ja-a-97_1529607177960.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/newpix/2018/06/21/19/4D7EFA8A00000578-5870891-Who_is_the_message_for_The_First_Lady_wore_a_39_Zara_military_ja-a-96_1529607177952.jpg

But when getting on a government plane at Andrews Air Force Base she wore a $39 Zara military jacket with the extraordinary message printed on the back: 'I don't care, do u?'

Her spokesperson said it was just a jacket.

'It's a jacket. There was no hidden message. After today's important visit to Texas, I hope this isn't what the media is going to choose to focus on,' Melania Trump's communications director Stephanie Grisham told the DailyMail.com in a statement.

_______________________________________

  

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makaveli
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91. "wow"
In response to Reply # 90


  

          

“So back we go to these questions — friendship, character… ethics.”

  

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Marauder21
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92. "Saw that and assumed it was photoshopped"
In response to Reply # 90


  

          

I should definitely know better at this point

------

12 play and 12 planets are enlighten for all the Aliens to Party and free those on the Sex Planet-maxxx

XBL: trkc21
Twitter: @tyrcasey

  

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poetx
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94. "same same. i have to turn off my sense of 'WTF'"
In response to Reply # 92


  

          

there's nothing i can assume that they wouldn't do.

nothing too crooked.

nothing is too stupid.

nothing is too racist.

nothing is too ignorant.

nothing is too blatantly boldfaced.

  

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j0510
Member since Feb 02nd 2012
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Thu Jun-21-18 09:54 PM

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95. "Twitter thread: It is shockingly difficult for immigration attorneys to ..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://twitter.com/ksieff/status/1009949212614774784

It is shockingly difficult for immigration attorneys to locate children separated from their parents at the border. Today I spoke to lawyers who represent more than 400 parents. They've located two children.

Some of the bureaucratic failures are remarkable: Border Patrol agents who forgot to note that a child crossed the border with a parent. Mothers who were never given the toll-free phone number where they can ask about their kids.

US officials often don't answer that toll-free number. When attorneys get through, officials respond that their client's child is "in the United States."

In other cases, children are transferred from one shelter to another, and the new facilities don't make note that the child was separated from a parent. Meaning they could be mistakenly considered an unaccompanied minor.

Much of the government's information about the child's parent -- necessary for reunification -- comes directly from the child. What kind of information can a toddler provide? And what if that toddler speaks an obscure indigenous language?

So what do attorneys tell their clients? One lawyer at @TRLA says this: “We have to say we don’t know where your child is. The government is responsible for keeping your child safe. No parent would be satisfied with that.”

Here's the story we just published. It's clear to me that there is no plan to reunify these families.
https://t.co/IH25kUARfL

  

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j0510
Member since Feb 02nd 2012
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Fri Jun-22-18 04:59 PM

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97. "https://twitter.com/Mikel_Jollett/status/1010238593560743936"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://twitter.com/Mikel_Jollett/status/1010238593560743936

  

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Jon
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98. "The name alone is just creepy as fuck to me, esp given DT is Pres"
In response to Reply # 0


          

  

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Mynoriti
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99. "Conservatives over the moon over this crying little girl photo thing"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Doesn't matter that most major news outlets who posted it specifically mention that the girl was still with her mom. Doesn't matter that they quote the photographer as saying the child is still with her mom..

Since it's such a viral photo and people assumed she was a separated child (I'll admit to assuming as well), for Trumpkins it means this whole thing is manufactured fake news and the real victim is Trump

  

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Rjcc
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102. "stop giving them any credit."
In response to Reply # 99


          

nothing matters to them.

not that photo not any other.


www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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Mynoriti
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Fri Jun-22-18 11:01 PM

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103. "who said i'm giving them credit?"
In response to Reply # 102


  

          

  

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Rjcc
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104. "they're "over the moon""
In response to Reply # 103


          

dude.

they are doing what they always do.

they are making up a thing and glomming on to it.

there's no there there.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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Mynoriti
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105. "do you not know what over the moon means or are you misunderstanding"
In response to Reply # 104


  

          

my point?

people on the right have been searching for a narrative or talking point to defend this shit all week (the most recent is Obama did it too), and they've all fell flat. today they're treating this photo like a smoking gun of false reporting even though that's not the case.

most news orgs how have shared this photo have speficially stated the girl in the photo wasn't separated, but since many people don't know that and it's become a iconic picture for the movement it's enough to build a strawman of false reporting/fake news/propaganda and run with it

  

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MiracleRic
Member since Oct 21st 2002
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Mon Jun-25-18 09:25 AM

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107. "lol"
In response to Reply # 105


  

          

Let me sport my Air Hyperbole 2010s in peace. (c) ansomble

Building repetoires (c) spm since 1983

  

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Mgmt
Member since Feb 17th 2005
21496 posts
Mon Jun-25-18 09:30 AM

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108. "classic example of non-conservatives squabbling amongst themselves"
In response to Reply # 104


  

          

while the far right runs away with the country

  

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Warren Coolidge
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101. "that jacket she wore was made by Zara"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

who coincidently has a history of racism accusations related to both business practices and their clothing itself...

the issue of the children is obviously the primary issue here...but people shouldn't just brush aside the statement on the first lady's jacket..


http://www.businessinsider.com/zara-faces-lawsuit-for-alleged-racism-2015-6

Ex-worker sues Zara for alleged racial discrimination

https://thenewdaily.com.au/entertainment/style/2018/02/03/fast-fashion-copies-and-fakes/

Why Zara’s ‘racist’ skirt is part of a bigger problem

  

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j0510
Member since Feb 02nd 2012
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Sat Jun-30-18 02:39 PM

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109. "I received a briefing yesterday where Trump officials refused to commit ..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I received a briefing yesterday where Trump officials refused to commit to reuniting families. They could not say how many families have been separated and said they only have plans to reunite 10 parents in their custody with children under 5. Outrageous.

https://twitter.com/SenatorDurbin/status/1012791431398862848

  

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Willong
Member since Jun 08th 2009
240 posts
Tue Jul-03-18 08:31 AM

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110. "Statists gonna state. "
In response to Reply # 0
Tue Jul-03-18 08:34 AM by Willong

  

          

The statist will always use state violence to achieve his desired ends. It is an immoral outlook, and can only be countered with a consistent stance against the state. Social democrats want to repeal and REPLACE ICE. Lol. They are ultra-nationalists who’s dreams of bringing Lilly white Scandinavia to America would hinge on keeping darkies out like they have done over there. The paternalistic racism of the white progressive is in clear contrast to the tribal racism of the Trumpers. The progressive criticisms of Trump’s marginal changes in immigration policy are weak and ineffectual because they cannot effectively criticize the leviathan state while also endorsing it.

  

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j0510
Member since Feb 02nd 2012
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Tue Jul-10-18 06:35 PM

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111. "The Trump Administration says that ONLY FOUR of 102 separated children u..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

The Trump Administration says that ONLY FOUR of 102 separated children under age 5 were reunited before today’s court’s deadline. They can’t even identify the parent of one toddler and have made no effort to contact 12 parents who ICE deported.

https://twitter.com/SenatorDurbin/status/1016798336886722560

  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
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Fri Jul-13-18 06:52 PM

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129. "yet most liberals have moved onto some other outrage of the day"
In response to Reply # 111


  

          

not trying to blame the victims or opposition here. it's a lot of fights to keep up. but there is a sort of national ADD on these topics that plays right into drumpf's hands

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
16595 posts
Wed Jul-11-18 12:48 PM

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113. "Defense contractor detained migrant kids in vacant Phoenix office buildi..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Well this oughta cheer you right up

https://www.revealnews.org/article/defense-contractor-detained-migrant-kids-in-vacant-phoenix-office-building/

Caught this story on my news feed yesterday

Basically, this contractor, MVM, was housing separated children in an abandoned office building

No windows, no facilities, etc...

A woman who lives near the facility noticed white vans pulling up to the site...unloading children...and then never seeing them again

She started documenting the activity because she thought it was human trafficing

She alerts the police, the police discover this is an ICE authorized contractor, throws up their hands and walks away

After the recent ruling that the children must be reunited...the facility is emptied out quickly

WTF!

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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MEAT
Member since Feb 08th 2008
22268 posts
Wed Jul-11-18 01:00 PM

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114. "I haven’t been on my computer much. "
In response to Reply # 113


  

          

It’s harder to update from my phone
All of this is still awful
The Phoenix story is crazy. Thank goodness for local nosey folks
There’s the stories of the kids sent to Betsy Devos’ orphanage, which is insane
The coercion of signing documents away
The 1 year old asked to stand trial
The possibility that two parties can’t be located and both kid and parent may be us citizens
Three women have been reported to have had miscarriages in holding while shackled
There’s parents that have been deported and they (the government) didn’t notify the kids
The bills that were proposed from the senate and House have stalled
The focus is now on the SC
And in truth all of these people need to be in The Hague
This is unimaginably grotesque
This is barbaric in its own right and everyone involve is not fit to be in a civic society.
I’ve been kept from hitting rock bottom by the numerous protests of them as humans, that these folks do not get to be in polite society peacefully

The first DC celeb that I saw when I moved here was John Bolton and he was just out and about and truthfully I wanted to punch him through his eye socket, this was 2012, and nobody seemed to be bothered by his presence.

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
16595 posts
Wed Jul-11-18 01:14 PM

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115. "I understand better now"
In response to Reply # 114


  

          

I thought your initial...I'm struggling posts were a request for help

But now, I'm starting to understand how the 3rd reich came to power

These microagressions/perversions are cumulative

I heard that Gitmo...was originally an immigrant detention facility...

we let that ride

and then it turned into a black site

etc...

Our country is locking up children...it's horrifying to think what that escalates to...

SMH

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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handle
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Wed Jul-11-18 01:19 PM

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116. "This is what Republicans BELIEVE now"
In response to Reply # 115


          

The party is anti FOREIGNER and anti IMMIGRANT now.

The want to instill fear to stop all immigration by being cruel.

------------


Gone: My Discogs collection for The Roots:
http://www.discogs.com/user/tomhayes-roots/collection

  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
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117. "Got it. The issue is, they are breaking laws to do it"
In response to Reply # 116


  

          

Alladis is actually illegal

There are protections and legal statutes in place to protect immigrants from these types of measures

They have rights

The legal proceedings that are to follow will probably continue for the rest of our lifetime

You can't deter people from surviving

We're decimating the globe...and then denying people the right to seek asylum

Anybody publish a study of our interventions in the countries that are causing the immigration to begin with

As I understand it, the ruling figures in the countries that people are fleeing...ALL graduated from the school of the americas.

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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handle
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Wed Jul-11-18 02:10 PM

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120. "Republicans don't care about laws"
In response to Reply # 117


          

When you control 2 of 3 branches, and you've been stacking the third branch with ideologues then the rules son't really apply - and if they do they apply longer after your misdeed.


Remember when they accused Obama or be an "Imperial President" changing the law at will?

------------


Gone: My Discogs collection for The Roots:
http://www.discogs.com/user/tomhayes-roots/collection

  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
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121. "BHO challenged the Flores agreement and was detaining families"
In response to Reply # 120


  

          

indefinitely

https://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/06/12/414023967/obama-immigrant-detention-policies-under-fire

--Meanwhile, lawyers at the Los Angeles-based Center for Human Rights and Constitutional Law and Obama administration officials have just a few days left to settle a lawsuit challenging the detention facilities for more than 2,000 women with children, who came here during last summer's border surge. The families are being held in detention centers in Texas and Pennsylvania. A federal judge in Los Angeles issued a preliminary ruling finding that the administration is violating an 18-year-old court settlement, Flores v. Meese. The settlement requires the government to house migrant children in "the least restrictive environment" or release them to relatives. The judge gave federal officials and the Center for Human Rights and Constitutional Law time to reach an agreement on how to implement her ruling before she makes it final.

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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MEAT
Member since Feb 08th 2008
22268 posts
Wed Jul-11-18 02:59 PM

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122. "Obama attempted to shore up his bona fides while working for better"
In response to Reply # 121
Wed Jul-11-18 02:59 PM by MEAT

  

          

Immigration laws. His strategy (unsuccessful as it was) was to push back against the idea that he wasn’t tough on laws while working on language towards a path to citizenship. So he detained more and also deported more.

It was a foolish strategy.

When the other party is disingenous in their ask and has a propaganda arm to write and rewrite their tested messaging in real time, he never stood a chance, and real damage was done.

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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MEAT
Member since Feb 08th 2008
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Wed Jul-11-18 01:30 PM

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118. "I just want to see the whole shit burned down. "
In response to Reply # 115


  

          

I’m glad to see the fight in some parties.
People came out en masse a couple of years ago to protest Richard Spencer
I was there, some dude got faded, people dislike Nazis
They’ll take bloody heads to shout at some nazis
But let the government do something horrific and that same energy of animosity fades
There’s so much of a culture of bowing to power structures in the US that I was struggling with that and still am to a degree
How do you not think about this everyday?
How does one hedge on abolishing ICE in this environment?
How do you allow those in power to do nothing?
Etc
It’s gross. It’s fucking gross. In a fair world decorum has been permanently dissolved.

I was also balied a few weeks ago by spending time a friend who just spent three years in Manilla, it felt good to talk about the darkness of the world so openly. Everyone else I’ve met wants to be optimistic, it was helpful to talk with someone else close that just was also staring into the abyss.

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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Marauder21
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Wed Jul-11-18 03:31 PM

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123. "Grappling with this daily"
In response to Reply # 118


  

          


>There’s so much of a culture of bowing to power structures
>in the US that I was struggling with that and still am to a
>degree
>How do you not think about this everyday?
>How does one hedge on abolishing ICE in this environment?
>How do you allow those in power to do nothing?
>Etc
>It’s gross. It’s fucking gross. In a fair world decorum
>has been permanently dissolved.

Because there's so little one person can do. My wife and I get home from work and vent to each other about this and how this shit all needs to end and everyone involved locked under the jail, but it feels like pissing in the wind.

In some ways, it might be worse when it's over. Because right now, we don't know FOR SURE that everyone is going to get away with it and live in comfort the rest of their days. But once Trump is out of office and whoever is cleaning this shit up, I'm going to lose it on the first person to say "let's look forward, not backwards."

------

12 play and 12 planets are enlighten for all the Aliens to Party and free those on the Sex Planet-maxxx

XBL: trkc21
Twitter: @tyrcasey

  

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MEAT
Member since Feb 08th 2008
22268 posts
Wed Jul-11-18 03:35 PM

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124. "I tiptoe around it with my wife. She’s great but not a fighter"
In response to Reply # 123


  

          

And with this I’m a simmering rage under the surface
This is such utter bullshit
I’m so proud and grateful for that woman that climbed the Statue of Liberty.

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“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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Marauder21
Charter member
49516 posts
Wed Jul-11-18 03:58 PM

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125. "I'm so thankful for people like that, but I feel like"
In response to Reply # 124


  

          

that can never be me.

I don't know, I'm sure that's how everyone feels at some point, but it is hard to not feel utterly lost, and I don't know if there's even a group or organization to join that's going to remove that feeling.

------

12 play and 12 planets are enlighten for all the Aliens to Party and free those on the Sex Planet-maxxx

XBL: trkc21
Twitter: @tyrcasey

  

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rawsouthpaw
Charter member
15496 posts
Thu Jul-12-18 02:43 AM

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126. "real deal vulture capitalism"
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j0510
Member since Feb 02nd 2012
2315 posts
Mon Jul-23-18 09:41 PM

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130. "U.S. says 463 migrant parents may have been deported without kids"
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https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-immigration/u-s-says-463-migrant-parents-may-have-been-deported-without-kids-idUSKBN1KE029

  

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naame
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21018 posts
Tue Aug-07-18 05:27 PM

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132. "Zero-Tolerance and Family Separations"
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http://trac.syr.edu/immigration/reports/520/

Zero-Tolerance and Family Separations
Family separations, the Administration stated, was the inevitable consequence of prosecuting everyone caught illegally entering this country. As the press widely reported, "he Justice Department can't prosecute children along with their parents, so the natural result of the zero-tolerance policy has been a sharp rise in family separations. Nearly 2,000 immigrant children were separated from parents during six weeks in April and May, according to the Department of Homeland Security."

However, since less than a third of adults apprehended illegally crossing the border were actually referred for prosecution, the stated justification does not explain why this Administration chose to prosecute parents with children over prosecuting adults without children who were also apprehended in even larger numbers. As shown in Table 1, the total number of adults apprehended without children during May 2018 was 24,465. This is much larger than the 9,216 adults that the administration chose to prosecute that month.

Thus, the so-called zero-tolerance policy didn't as a practical matter eliminate prosecutorial discretion. Since less than one out of three adults were actually prosecuted, CBP personnel had to choose which individuals among those apprehended to refer to federal prosecutors. The Administration has not explained its rationale for prosecuting parents with children when that left so many other adults without children who were not being referred for prosecution.

Nor does the zero-tolerance policy explain why so many adults also had their children taken from them who were not prosecuted. For more background, see TRAC's report on the latest case-by-case Border Patrol data.

  

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j0510
Member since Feb 02nd 2012
2315 posts
Fri Aug-17-18 12:03 PM

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133. ""
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565 Migrant Children Remain Separated From Families 3 Weeks Past Judge’s Deadline

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/565-migrant-children-still-separated-past-deadline_us_5b7617dee4b018b93e9227ee

  

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MEAT
Member since Feb 08th 2008
22268 posts
Fri Aug-17-18 12:13 PM

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134. "I’ve been stress eating and drinking for the last few months. "
In response to Reply # 133
Fri Aug-17-18 12:13 PM by MEAT

  

          

Thank you for keeping this post active.

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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MEAT
Member since Feb 08th 2008
22268 posts
Thu Oct-08-20 10:58 AM

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135. "‘We Need to Take Away Children,’ No Matter How Young, Justice Dept. ..."
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“We need to take away children,” Mr. Sessions told the prosecutors, according to participants’ notes. One added in shorthand: “If care about kids, don’t bring them in. Won’t give amnesty to people with kids.”

Rod J. Rosenstein, then the deputy attorney general, went even further in a second call about a week later, telling the five prosecutors that it did not matter how young the children were. He said that government lawyers should not have refused to prosecute two cases simply because the children were barely more than infants.


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https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/06/us/politics/family-separation-border-immigration-jeff-sessions-rod-rosenstein.html?action=click&module=News&pgtype=Homepage

WASHINGTON — The five U.S. attorneys along the border with Mexico, including three appointed by President Trump, recoiled in May 2018 against an order to prosecute all undocumented immigrants even if it meant separating children from their parents. They told top Justice Department officials they were “deeply concerned” about the children’s welfare.

But the attorney general at the time, Jeff Sessions, made it clear what Mr. Trump wanted on a conference call later that afternoon, according to a two-year inquiry by the Justice Department’s inspector general into Mr. Trump’s “zero tolerance” family separation policy.

“We need to take away children,” Mr. Sessions told the prosecutors, according to participants’ notes. One added in shorthand: “If care about kids, don’t bring them in. Won’t give amnesty to people with kids.”

Rod J. Rosenstein, then the deputy attorney general, went even further in a second call about a week later, telling the five prosecutors that it did not matter how young the children were. He said that government lawyers should not have refused to prosecute two cases simply because the children were barely more than infants.

“Those two cases should not have been declined,” John Bash, the departing U.S. attorney in western Texas, wrote to his staff immediately after the call. Mr. Bash had declined the cases, but Mr. Rosenstein had overruled him. “Per the A.G.’s policy, we should NOT be categorically declining immigration prosecutions of adults in family units because of the age of a child.”

The Justice Department’s top officials were “a driving force” behind the policy that spurred the separation of thousands of families, many of them fleeing violence in Central America and seeking asylum in the United States, before Mr. Trump abandoned it amid global outrage, according to a draft report of the results of the investigation by Michael E. Horowitz, the department’s inspector general.

The separation of migrant children from their parents, sometimes for months, was at the heart of the Trump administration’s assault on immigration. But the fierce backlash when the administration struggled to reunite the children turned it into one of the biggest policy debacles of the president’s term.

Though Mr. Sessions sought to distance himself from the policy, allowing Mr. Trump and Homeland Security Department officials to largely be blamed, he and other top law enforcement officials understood that “zero tolerance” meant that migrant families would be separated and wanted that to happen because they believed it would deter future illegal immigration, Mr. Horowitz wrote.

“The department’s single-minded focus on increasing prosecutions came at the expense of careful and effective implementation of the policy, especially with regard to prosecution of family-unit adults and the resulting child separations,” the draft report said

The draft report, citing more than 45 interviews with key officials, emails and other documents, provides the most complete look at the discussions inside the Justice Department as the family separation policy was developed, pushed and ultimately carried out with little concern for children.

This article is based on a review of the 86-page draft report and interviews with three government officials who read it in recent months and described its conclusions and many of the details in it. The officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because they had not been authorized to discuss it publicly, cautioned that the final report could change.

Before publishing the findings of its investigations, the inspector general’s office typically provides draft copies to Justice Department leaders and others mentioned in the reports to ensure that they are accurate.

Mr. Horowitz had been preparing to release his report since late summer, according to a person familiar with the investigation, though the process allowing for responses from current and former department officials whose conduct is under scrutiny is likely to delay its release until after the presidential election.

Mr. Sessions refused to be interviewed, the report noted. Mr. Rosenstein, who is now a lawyer in private practice, defended himself in his interview with investigators in response to questioning about his role, according to two of the officials. Mr. Rosenstein’s former office submitted a 64-page response to the report.

“If any United States attorney ever charged a defendant they did not personally believe warranted prosecution, they violated their oath of office,” Mr. Rosenstein said in a statement. “I never ordered anyone to prosecute a case.”

Gene Hamilton, a top lawyer and ally of Stephen Miller, the architect of the president’s assault on immigration, argued in a 32-page response that Justice Department officials merely took direction from the president. Mr. Hamilton cited an April 3, 2018, meeting with Mr. Sessions; the homeland security secretary at the time, Kirstjen Nielsen; and others in which the president “ranted” and was on “a tirade,” demanding as many prosecutions as possible.

Mr. Hamilton declined to comment for this article, as did Mr. Horowitz’s office. Mr. Sessions did not respond to requests for comment. Alexa Vance, a spokeswoman for the Justice Department, disputed the draft report and said the Homeland Security Department referred cases for prosecution.

“The draft report relied on for this article contains numerous factual errors and inaccuracies,” she said. “While D.O.J. is responsible for the prosecutions of defendants, it had no role in tracking or providing custodial care to the children of defendants. Finally, both the timing and misleading content of this leak raise troubling questions about the motivations of those responsible for it.”

The draft report also documented other revelations that had not previously been known:

Government prosecutors reacted with alarm at the separation of children from their parents during a secret 2017 pilot program along the Mexican border in Texas. “We have now heard of us taking breastfeeding defendant moms away from their infants,” one government prosecutor wrote to his superiors. “I did not believe this until I looked at the duty log.”

Border Patrol officers missed serious felony cases because they were stretched too thin by the zero-tolerance policy requiring them to detain and prosecute all of the misdemeanor illegal entry cases. One Texas prosecutor warned top Justice Department officials in 2018 that “sex offenders were released” as a result.

Senior Justice Department officials viewed the welfare of the children as the responsibility of other agencies and their duty as tracking the parents. “I just don’t see that as a D.O.J. equity,” Mr. Rosenstein told the inspector general.

The failure to inform the U.S. Marshals Service before announcing the zero-tolerance policy led to serious overcrowding and budget overruns. The marshals were forced to cut back on serving warrants in other cases, saying that “when you take away manpower, you can’t make a safe arrest.”

For two years, Ms. Nielsen has taken the brunt of the public criticism for separating migrant families because of her decision to refer adults crossing the border illegally with children for prosecution. A day after the president’s retreat, Mr. Sessions distanced his department from the decision, telling CBN News that “we never really intended” to separate children.

That was false, according to the draft report. It made clear that from the policy’s earliest days in a five-month test along the border in Texas, Justice Department officials understood — and encouraged — the separation of children as an expected part of the desire to prosecute all undocumented border crossers.

“It is the hope that this separation will act as a deterrent to parents bringing their children into the harsh circumstances that are present when trying to enter the United States illegally,” a Border Patrol official wrote on Oct. 28, 2017, to the U.S. attorney in New Mexico, according to the draft report.

After the pilot program in Texas ended, the report asserted, Mr. Sessions, Mr. Hamilton and Mr. Rosenstein pushed aggressively to expand the practice across the entire southwestern border, with help from prosecutors.

In a briefing two days after Christmas in 2017, top Justice Department officials asked Mr. Bash for statistics from the pilot program, conducted by his predecessor, that could be used to develop “nationwide prosecution guidelines.” Mr. Bash, a former White House adviser, did not receive a follow-up request for the information. Thinking that the idea had been abandoned, he did not provide it.

By April 2018, Mr. Sessions nevertheless moved to enact the zero-tolerance policy across the entire border with Mexico. Mr. Rosenstein told the inspector general that Mr. Sessions “understood what the consequences were.”

“The A.G.’s goal,” he said, “was to create a more effective deterrent so that everybody would believe that they had a risk of being prosecuted.”

But the Justice Department still needed to persuade Ms. Nielsen to refer all families for prosecution, which she had been resisting. The draft report says a pressure campaign culminated in a May 3 meeting in which Mr. Sessions insisted that Customs and Border Protection begin referring all of those cases to prosecutors.

A note from Mr. Hamilton to Mr. Sessions before the meeting indicated: “You should lead this discussion.”

“We must vigorously enforce our criminal immigration laws to ensure that there are consequences for illegal actions and to deter future illegal immigration,” Mr. Sessions planned to say, according to the draft report. “That means that an illegal alien should not get a free pass just because he or she crosses the border illegally with a child.”

When the group voted by a show of hands to proceed, Ms. Nielsen was the only one who kept her hand down, according to two people familiar with the vote, which was reported earlier by NBC News. The next day, Ms. Nielsen backed down, signing a memo referring all adults for prosecution and clearing the way for the children to be separated.

The decision roiled the prosecutors along the border. In Arizona, Elizabeth Strange, the acting U.S. attorney, led a minor rebellion, temporarily declining six cases, citing concern about the children. That prompted a rebuke from top Justice Department officials, who demanded to know “why would they be declining these cases?”

Justice Department officials have repeatedly claimed that they thought the adults would be prosecuted and reunited with their children within hours of being separated. But the inspector general found a memo informing top officials that sentences for adults ranged from three to 14 days, making it all but certain that children would be sent to the custody of officials at the Health and Human Services Department for long periods of time.

“We found no evidence, before or after receipt of the memorandum, that D.O.J. leaders sought to expedite the process for completing sentencing in order to facilitate reunification of separated families,” the inspector general wrote.

Over all, Mr. Horowitz concluded in the draft, Mr. Sessions and other senior department officials “were aware that full implementation of the zero-tolerance policy would result in criminal referrals by D.H.S. of adults who enter the country illegally with children and that the prosecution of these family-unit adults would result in children being separated from families.”

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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navajo joe
Member since Apr 13th 2005
6576 posts
Thu Oct-08-20 11:06 AM

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136. "People wonder why I would hope for someone's death"
In response to Reply # 135


          

This is why.

-------------------------------

A lot of you players ain't okay.

We would have been better off with an okaycivics board instead of an okayactivist board

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
24477 posts
Thu Oct-08-20 11:11 AM

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137. "LOL yep. Lost a fbook "friend" over this exact thing yesterday."
In response to Reply # 136


          

I went at him hard for having the gall to question my conduct in wishing death upon this objectively awful beast of a man while he simultaneously ignored and/or excused awawy the death, despair, and destruction that same beast of a man had caused.

He defriended me. Pussy.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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