"Poll question: Was Bill Clinton a sexual predator?"
If those allegations happened today how different would they be viewed? Being on the right side of issues is no longer a shield for sexual assault and I doubt Bill would get defended by Gloria Steinem ( I recently read about her defense of Clinton and it was cringe worthy). What say you?
legsdiamond Member since May 05th 2011 79560 posts
Thu Nov-16-17 03:45 PM
1. "based on all those women's stories? HELLL YESSSS" In response to Reply # 0
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
stravinskian Member since Feb 24th 2003 12698 posts
Thu Nov-16-17 05:11 PM
24. "Well, people have been using the term for months." In response to Reply # 9
It's a meme that's been going around (meme in the original, Dawkins sense). People have been using the term to describe the Trump administration's deflections on the Russia stuff, noting in particular that the style of deflection (supposedly, I don't know the history) was perfected and regularly employed by the Soviet Union. (criticisms of the regime always deflected with an appeal to some other irrelevant stuff going on somewhere else)
> >It's a meme that's been going around (meme in the original, >Dawkins sense). People have been using the term to describe >the Trump administration's deflections on the Russia stuff, >noting in particular that the style of deflection (supposedly, >I don't know the history) was perfected and regularly employed >by the Soviet Union. (criticisms of the regime always >deflected with an appeal to some other irrelevant stuff going >on somewhere else) >
29. "It's Trumps invocation of Hillary Clinton" In response to Reply # 24
The idea that in the face of criticism, a sitting President can point to the candidate he defeated as a defense is motherfucking crazy and shouldn't be entertained but somehow it is now being normalized by all the "we need to reckon with Bill Clinton" think pieces I am seeing progressive writers churn out these days.
********** "Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
8. "How are we differentiating "Predator" and actively attempting to have se..." In response to Reply # 5
I don't know all the details about Clinton, although if he's habitually having sex with women working under him then yeah I'd say there's a good chance he's a predator.
Now if you're simply good at finding women who want to have sex with you I wouldn't call that predatory.
R.I.P. Loud But Wrong Guy Dec 29th 2009 - Dec 17th 2017
11. "Stereotypes say men give off the "interested in sex" vibe more than" In response to Reply # 8
women
>Now if you're simply good at finding women who want to have >sex with you I wouldn't call that predatory.
so....
A man who is actively looking for sex is presumed to interact with a significant amount of women stereotypically "not looking for sex" or "hard to tell if she is looking for sex."
If there was a poll post, most would vote that women don't really give off the "actively looking for sex" vibe a lot. Therefore a man actively looking will seem "predatory" due to the amount of "disinterested" women he encounters in his "looking" forays.
16. "People can say a slick/shrewd/classy/mature man is very" In response to Reply # 15
cautious or perceptive
but.....
We live in a very macho non-finesse football loving society in the USA
so....
many men aren't being perceptive and cautious in their approach to women
Now....if football and that whole sports mentality wasn't so prevalent in the USA, then maybe your point about men not having to be rude or sloppy or whatever might be pertinent, but....
41. "Realistically SOMEBODY has to make the first move" In response to Reply # 30
Unless two people are supposed to somehow spontaneously and accidently find themselves having sex.
It seems that for the longest time the assumption was that it's on the male in hetero relations to make things happen.
I remember a while back a girl I was hanging with told me the next day she was mad I didn't try anything and I'm thinking "If that's the case, why didn't YOU make that shit happen?!"
R.I.P. Loud But Wrong Guy Dec 29th 2009 - Dec 17th 2017
46. "You keep missing or ignoring the stereotypes" In response to Reply # 41
>Unless two people are supposed to somehow spontaneously and >accidently find themselves having sex.
The stereotype is: Most women don't think they should be "finding themselves having sex" with people they just meet. Stereotypically, women want a relationship before sex.
So...
If a man has the mentality of "actively looking for sex" (which presumes I am guessing sex very soon after meeting a person) that whole mentality in itself could be described as "predatory" right off the bat.
Now....
You could do the TOKP reply thing and say "of course, when I wrote in reply #8 'actively attempting to have sex,' I was referring the the entire 'dance' of "relationship first, then eventual sex after a while."
but.....
It seemed pretty likely you were referring to something more immediate than a drawn out process, which is why that could or should be seen as far different than what women want and therefore somewhat "predatory."
47. "Women aren't a monolith" In response to Reply # 46
Yeah the stereo type is that all women are looking for a relationship, but let's not act like women want to be in Long term relationships with every man they have sex with.
It comes down to being honest and finding people compatible with what you're looking for.
R.I.P. Loud But Wrong Guy Dec 29th 2009 - Dec 17th 2017
legsdiamond Member since May 05th 2011 79560 posts
Thu Nov-16-17 05:02 PM
20. "No.. yall need to stop this shit" In response to Reply # 5
Predator is a strong word.
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
legsdiamond Member since May 05th 2011 79560 posts
Fri Nov-17-17 08:54 AM
39. "nah, you got me mixed up. I've always been a fan of marriage" In response to Reply # 38
if anything I said marriage still has it's flaws
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
stravinskian Member since Feb 24th 2003 12698 posts
Thu Nov-16-17 05:24 PM
26. "He got a pass at the time..." In response to Reply # 0 Thu Nov-16-17 05:24 PM by stravinskian
just because it was so glaringly obvious that the people pushing the story didn't care about the substance of the allegations. They (I don't mean the accusers, I mean the GOP partisans) were weaponising the accusers for entirely partisan purposes. Many of the GOP partisans and TV hosts were behaving in a manner that was similarly vile (Gingrich, Hastert, and O'Reilly being the most obvious cases).
On the subject of the specific allegations: absolutely, the arguments we make about "believing the victim" apply just as well in these cases as in all the others. Now that these floodgates are opened society will have to grow, and it clearly isn't limited by party or ideology. Bill's place in history will be deeply scarred over this.
stravinskian Member since Feb 24th 2003 12698 posts
Fri Nov-17-17 11:17 AM
42. "Well, I'm not really talking about the Monica Lewinsky stuff." In response to Reply # 37
He got impeached for that but I think anyone who's honest would admit that a consentual affair (creepy as it is with that huge power imbalance) is not a crime and not an impeachable offense. Even the impeachment prosecutors claimed that it "wasn't about sex."
I'm talking about the allegations from Paula Jones, Kathleen Willey, and (shiver) Juanita Broaddrick. By today's standards, those allegations would rightfully be career-ending. But back then the left obfuscated, partially because it was a different time and people's standards of proof were different, so it was easy to obfuscate. But also because the messengers were subverting the important issue for flatly partisan ends.
It was an ugly episode, and it set back progress. And while I'm generally happy that Bill Clinton was president, I hope that society had advanced enough that his legacy will pay an enormous price for it.
28. "It seems pretty clear, yes" In response to Reply # 0
I think the allegations at the time hit him pretty hard but it was more about infidelity (which subsequently no one seemed to give a shit about) and less about abuse of power, abuse of women, etc.
It'll be interesting how long this current fad--and make no mistake it is a fad--of calling out this sort of behavior lasts. I also don't know how I feel about an unwelcome advance being lumped in with outright rape, which is what a lot of this is. Call me skeptical but a lot of people who didn't give a shit yesterday seem to be eager to board this train. Hopefully the frenzy strengthens awareness and vigilance for when it goes back to being an overlooked issue.
And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
44. "I believe he used his power to get ass" In response to Reply # 0
Was he raping and assaulting these women?
Some men exploit/use their position to get laid But these are consensual lays yes? Was Bill holding women down, threatening, "give me the ass or you're fired/I'll ruin your life" type stuff?
You know, Weinstein style?
He, like a lot of men with power, had groupies You can't tell me a young charming handsome governor one of the most skilled natural politicians ever (aka game through the roof) wasn't getting panties thrown at him
At what point is one man's groupie the next man's assault victim?
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