legsdiamond Member since May 05th 2011 79592 posts
Wed Jul-26-17 08:36 AM
5. "why not? anyone should be able to take a bullet or fire one if they want" In response to Reply # 0
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
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17. "But how does it improve or change otherwise ?" In response to Reply # 16
Trans people aren't forced into the military just by being given the opportunity to join it. But given the *opportunity* to enlist, some are willing to suffer through the discrimination and oppression and the hope is that eventually the ignorant mindstate and culture changes. May not happen overnight, but barring them from even having the opportunity to enlist solves nothing and just makes people angry.
Atillah Moor Member since Sep 05th 2013 13825 posts
Wed Jul-26-17 11:48 AM
29. "there's letting a system fail and playing a part in it's reconstruction " In response to Reply # 17 Wed Jul-26-17 11:48 AM by Atillah Moor
there's education and screening initiatives that can be implemented to improve the culture
there's separate and specialized units
there's enforced accountability
I see plenty of ways that don't involve the age old just let them in, ignore their abuse and or make token gestures, and over time, things will incrementally improve.
Similar to systemic and cultural racism - if the military wanted to change it would. Seems like the actions speak louder than the words IMO.
32. "Who do you suggest implements those education..." In response to Reply # 29 Wed Jul-26-17 12:54 PM by Brew
>there's education and screening initiatives that can be >implemented to improve the culture
... and training techniques ? The same government who's currently going in the exact opposite direction ?
>there's separate and specialized units
So your solution is transgender military segregation ?
>there's enforced accountability
And who's going to hold them accountable if trans people, the only people really, truly affected by this abuse, are not even allowed to enlist ??
>I see plenty of ways that don't involve the age old just let >them in, ignore their abuse and or make token gestures, and >over time, things will incrementally improve.
Who said anything about ignoring it ?
>Similar to systemic and cultural racism - if the military >wanted to change it would. Seems like the actions speak louder >than the words IMO.
Right. So your preferred solution is to ban transgender folks altogether ? Who's going to force that change then ? God knows it won't come from within; no one within the armed forces will care now about these people because they're no longer in boot camp making friends with transgender people, no longer in the trenches with them. So you think the change comes from the government ? Who implements these training courses ?
Atillah Moor Member since Sep 05th 2013 13825 posts
Wed Jul-26-17 02:55 PM
41. "This is my point - ultimately there is no real interest " In response to Reply # 32 Wed Jul-26-17 02:57 PM by Atillah Moor
and to force it won't make for better results, but if there were a a genuine interest or genuine leadership even you would see other approaches. In other words -- it's a trap!
>>there's education and screening initiatives that can be >>implemented to improve the culture > >... and training techniques ? The same government who's >currently going in the exact opposite direction ?
Should be, but yeah govt isn't interested
>>there's separate and specialized units > >So your solution is transgender military segregation ?
Personally I think it's safer for all that the units be segregated and then the strengths of those distinct units can be harnessed and nurtured until such a time that they can be successfully integrated. It's not a cure all, but could help ease some of the ills within the military
>>there's enforced accountability > >And who's going to hold them accountable if trans people, the >only people really, truly affected by this abuse, are not even >allowed to enlist ??
What abuse specifically are we talking about? If it's discrimination in the form of barred access well maybe let them stay bigoted and move on. If it's sexual/physical abuse you're referring to then no -- it affects military men at a rate slightly greater or equal to abuse of women if I'm not mistaken.
> >>I see plenty of ways that don't involve the age old just let >>them in, ignore their abuse and or make token gestures, and >>over time, things will incrementally improve. > >Who said anything about ignoring it ? that's the process, look at the CRM. A lot of heel dragging during all of that so maybe heel dragging is a better term. > > >>Similar to systemic and cultural racism - if the military >>wanted to change it would. Seems like the actions speak >louder >>than the words IMO. > >Right. So your preferred solution is to ban transgender folks >altogether ? Who's going to force that change then ?
Judging from american history and black peoples own sacrifice I don't believe in forcing change. I believe in changing to surpass lack of change
God knows >it won't come from within; no one within the armed forces will >care now about these people because they're no longer in boot >camp making friends with transgender people, no longer in the >trenches with them. So you think the change comes from the >government ?
Should but if the government fails it's people the people should forsake their government
Who implements these training courses ? Should be the leadership and if that leadership doesn't measure up let it run it's course
Those which America marginalizes are deceived into believing that buy somehow forcing their way into something that the thing will then accept them (not the case) -- when they could focus on creating their own spaces and communities to rival the things that exclude them.
18. "there's a separate discussion to have about the toxicity of our military..." In response to Reply # 16
in general, but i'd rather someone have the choice to be involved in our military than not. they don't need us to pretend it's some kind of benevolent gesture to save them from the experience. they can make that choice on their own.
a good number of people i know who have served in the military are from traditionalist mexican catholic families. many of them are gay, a few are trans, and there's pushback and abuse at home and their communities anyway. it's not just something they're dealing with because of joining the services.
and for many, because they spent their late teens and 20s in the military, it's often a place where many of them made their first deep connections to the lgbt community.
finally, the abusive people in the military are going to abuse their power regardless. they're just going to find other victims to take it out on.
>RE: there's a separate discussion to have about the toxicity of our military >in general, but i'd rather someone have the choice to be >involved in our military than not. they don't need us to >pretend it's some kind of benevolent gesture to save them from >the experience. they can make that choice on their own. > >a good number of people i know who have served in the military >are from traditionalist mexican catholic families. many of >them are gay, a few are trans, and there's pushback and abuse >at home and their communities anyway. it's not just something >they're dealing with because of joining the services. > >and for many, because they spent their late teens and 20s in >the military, it's often a place where many of them made their >first deep connections to the lgbt community. > >finally, the abusive people in the military are going to abuse >their power regardless. they're just going to find other >victims to take it out on.
legsdiamond Member since May 05th 2011 79592 posts
Wed Jul-26-17 11:13 AM
23. "man, this is how you end up with a military that turns on its people" In response to Reply # 14
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
20. "I don't have numbers but this seems like such a non issue" In response to Reply # 0
on Trumps side to even go in on
its not like there are hundreds and thousands of transgendered people busting down the door to go and fight for a country that does not give a fuck about it's vets
21. "Or, you know, about them." In response to Reply # 20
>and fight for a country >that does not give a fuck about it's vets
But I mean c'mon. Whether or not there's a large number of that population looking to join the armed forces is insanely irrelevant. Discrimination is discrimination even if there's just ONE transgender person looking to serve.
legsdiamond Member since May 05th 2011 79592 posts
Wed Jul-26-17 11:14 AM
24. "ehh, gotta be careful with that type of talk" In response to Reply # 20
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
legsdiamond Member since May 05th 2011 79592 posts
Wed Jul-26-17 11:45 AM
28. "I read that wrong, carry on" In response to Reply # 26
but I think it's just a hot button issue it's not really about the numbers..
like the bathroom issue. Charlotte lost out on the NBA allstar game over that bullshit.
people talking about their daughters getting attacked in bathrooms and shit.
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
30. "is it me or does this feel like a fabricated issue?" In response to Reply # 28
like
transgendered people have been existing in the open for a good second now (emphasis on the "Second" part)
I bet a teeny minority was upset and the rest of the world didnt even notice what was what until that minority made it an issue
ALSO
goddamn I hate reading anything related to the thoughts of those people...they literally have no idea how any of it works and they've managed to created yet another fucking evil boogey person out of nothing
legsdiamond Member since May 05th 2011 79592 posts
Wed Jul-26-17 12:54 PM
33. "my coworker tried the "what about your daughter" " In response to Reply # 30
I had to shut that shit down.
don't try and use my kids against me to win a weak argument.
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
42. "CONFIRMED; he did this to try to get more votes in the electoral college" In response to Reply # 0
White House officials are openly conceding that the move was motivated by electoral politics.
Vice President Mike Pence and chief strategist Steve Bannon had reportedly been pushing the policy shift,and Politico reported that the president made the decision to resolve a congressional squabble in order to secure funds for his border wall.
The rollout of the new policy itself was very odd, betraying a striking lack of effort to pretend this was anything other than a unilateral White House move.
I'm not gonna sit here and say that I understand everything (or anything for that matter) about transgendered people. However, I'm not dumb enough, insensitive enough, or hateful enough to compare the perceived "medical problems" of transgendered people to those of folks with asthma or bad feet. WTF!!!
I respect people as human beings with the right and faculties to live how they choose to.
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