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>>>You've done so pretty often in reference to me.
>>>And you did say "whatever the heck you're talking
>>>about" which I find almost equally offensive.
>>
>>
>>But that only occurred after you started hostilities in this
>>post in post #293. My only point is that in this post, you
>>started the hostilities, not me. Not sure how you can
>>disagree with that when there is the full record of our
>>exchange here. Can you give me that point?
>
>
>I just felt it necessary given our past.
>Hostility wasn't the intention, but it was
>firm on purpose no doubt.
Fair enough.
>
>
>>>According to you, I'm always speaking "nonsense"
>>>(at least you only reply to me when you feel that way,
>>>because you've never replied to me to cosign anything),
>>
>>I don't recall saying that. Not impossible that I did but to
>>me it doesn't sound like something I would say. If you got
>>receipts please share them.
>
>
>I say that based on the way you usually respond
>to my posts and the fact that you've referred
>to my words as "nonsense" within this conversation.
ok
>
>
>
>>>so if I'm really this "blacker than thou" individual
>>>who speaks nothing but nonsense, there's no need to
>>>even acknowledge me. Notice I've ignored you a lot
>>>recently, because I've determined that you aren't worth
>>>replying to in most cases. You can't hide your hatred
>>>of my so-called "blacker than thou posting style" most
>>>of the time enough to even acknowledge that I'm
>>>making good points even when you can see them.
>>
>>It's not hatred bro. You'd have to do alot more to earn my
>>hatred. But I will make a point of co-signing your good
>>points next time I see it, to help prove it isn't personal.
>
>
>
>Well, just in the name of accuracy, I said you hated
>my posting style, not me.
ok
>
>
>
>
>>>>Post #293 isn't hostile?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Let's let your next statement help explain why it's not...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>I swear I don't come at you just to troll you
>>>>(or anyone else). I try not to let grudges carry
>>>>over from older post. I think I am usually beefing
>>>>with you because of your condescending blacker than
>>>>thou posting style at times.
>>>
>>>
>>>This is completely untrue. After that post about Oprah
>>>and Rae Dawn Chong, you started coming at me in other
>>>posts, bringing that up. You did the same thing after
>>>the post about the young brother clowning the white woman
>>>with the walkman. So 293 was just letting you know I
>>>wasn't for the BS.
>>
>>fair point. You are right. Thanks for reminded me I wil
>>bring up old shit to prove a point. The point I was trying
>to
>>make is I won't come at someone for no reason because of
>prior
>>beef. But if I feel like you are getting on a soap box
>>talking down to folks I will drugged old shit to show that
>>what I think is just a lot of tough talk.
>
>
>
>Well here's the thing. I try to let my arguments
>stand on their own without resorting to that, because
>I feel like if an argument is good, it should be
>able to stand without a personal attack. Remember,
>I do think you've said some key things that help to
>put most of your positions into context... this one
>included. It's just too easy for that "ain't you
>the same dude who said" stuff to get messy really
>fast, especially when the discussion being rehashed
>was already interpreted differently by both parties.
>In a nutshell, that works both ways. Beyond that,
>I never understood the "tough talk" accusation, I've
>never claimed to be Billy Badass. I do, however,
>speak with quite a bit of conviction. I'm self-aware
>enough to realize I've been condescending before tho.
>All I can do is try to do better.
Ok. I pledge to try for the clean slate. I won't bring up old shit.
>
>
>
>
>>>Remember, all those "not black enough" statements were
>>>quotes from Issa herself, so they tell us how she grew up
>>>viewing the world and give some insight into how she
>>>developed as a person and even how she could still view
>>>the world.
>>
>>
>>No. Those statements tell us how she was viewed. Compare
>>that to the similar conversation with jessica Williams which
>>tells us how Jessica Williams views the world. Anyway, I
>>don't have the whole quotes so I don't have context but what
>>you provided expresses how she was viewed. Not how she
>views
>>the world.
>
>
>
>
>As for those statements telling us how she was viewed VS
>how she views the world, I think a person's experiences
>and how they are viewed shape how they view the world
>at least to some extent. She calls herself the "awkward
>black girl"... awkwardness stems from self-concept, which
>is shaped by how others view you. It's a social concept.
>People like Jessica Williams are why I said
>Tarighu got it right "for the most part," because
>DCS can be raised around white folks and feel disconnected
>from the "Black community" and come off like a perpetrator
>as well. I just think having immigrant parents can very
>easily add to that, as it's a higher chance your parents
>won't have positive feelings or things to say about
>American Black folks whether directly or indirectly.
>That's definitely something I've seen from personal
>experience and heard from friends with immigrant parents
>and friends who married DBI.
So yeah if we agree DCS and DBI can be disconnected from the community, then in my mind it really doesn't turn on whether they are DCS or DBI, it turns on something else. Maybe it's growing up around other black people or Whether their parents make them feel connected to the community. I am sure we all got theories.
>
>
>
>
>>She learned to fit in with descendants of
>>>chattel slaves. She developed speaking a whole different
>>>language and then adopted the language she's writing.
>>>*She's literally writing in her second language.*
>>
>>
>>This is what I find silly. The idea of a black girl
>>misappropriating the language of black people. It's the
>>language of her people.
>
>
>
>You're right, but only because you didn't capitalize
>the second "B" to indicate DCS.
>People on both sides would disagree that DCS and
>DBI are people. I'd say we are, but I'd also say there are
>some very important differences that make it a nuanced
>conversation. It just depends on your view. Mine isn't
>cut and dry.
>
Yeah I don't believe in that Black versus black distinction but reasonable people can disagree on that.
>
>
>>
>>Anyway, I think we have gotten to the core of the issue and
>>here is my MOST IMPROTANT POINT IN THIS EXCHANGE:
>>
>>While there can be distinct differences between the cultures
>>of black immigrant families and black american families,
>there
>>is also tremendous overlap between the two, especially when
>it
>>comes to how the descendants of these two groups experience
>>the world and talk. Specifically, there is no discernable
>way
>>to tell whether a young black person is the descendant of
>>black immigrants ("DBI" going forward) or the descendants of
>>chattel slavery ("DCS" going forward) based on their use of
>>the N word or black slang (also , please clarify, are you
>>saying phrases like "fuck nigga" is DCS slang?).
>
>
>Nah, I'm saying it's easy to misuse slang that you
>adopt secondarily.
Agreed.
I simply listed possible reasons that
>work synergistically to create that situation for Issa.
>It's like she didn't have consistent contact with ANY
>DCS before junior high... not even her parents.
See again, I don't think there is really DBI versus DCS slang. Especially if we are talking about the use of the N word.
>That kinda compounds what the situation would be for
>a DCS at all PWI. I'm hoping that makes it clear why
>I included that as part of my initial reply.
>As for her saying "fuck nigga," it just sounded out
>of place the way she used it imo... like the real live
>"awkward black girl" trying to fit in. As far as it
>being DCS slang, I'd guess that it did originate with us.
I am not sure how you can claim "fuck nigga" is DCS versus DBI. I would just say it's black slang. It's important to note that so much current black slang has hip-hop origins, and DBIs play such a huge role in hip-hop. DJ Kool Herc, Afrika Bambaataa, Grandmaster Flash, the godfathers of hip-hop, all DBIs. MC'ing itself, the art of moving a crowd by rapping over famous beats and breakbeats, has origins from Caribbean dancehall, reggae, calypso, and dub music.
Yeah certain slang has DBI origins like "Big up" and certain slang has DCS southern roots, but not sure how you can classify an expression like "fuck nigga".
>I'm not saying that the way she used it makes it obvious
>that she's a DBI. I'm saying her being a DBI raised
>around white people could have a lot to do with why
>her use of it sounded off to me and others.
Again, I think it's about her being raised around white people and in a certain home environment is the answer and doesn't have to do with whether she ws DBI or DCS. Condi Rice would sound awkward has hell saing "FN" too and she is DCS.
>I agree there's overlap in how we experience the world.
>As stated above, we're all non-white, and the system of
>white supremacy determines how we experience the world,
>so there will be similarities. But as I also stated
>before, when it comes to how institutions and Hollywood
>view DBI, it's different from how they view DCS due to
>the potential "trouble" we cause with our demands/desire
>to stand (or kneel) for a cause. The establishment
>could be pretty sure Obama wasn't gonna fight for
>reparations, for instance.
>There are exceptions to this, because some DCS won't
>challenge the system either, but we are simply viewed
>differently on that basis. I mean, pay attention to how many
>times in the media you're looking at an immigrant student
>when some college brags about a black student. These
>kinds of things are something I've been paying a lot of
>attention to lately, but I digress. All that to say
>our experience may sometimes boil down to us standing
>for things that DBI would have no motivation to stand for.
>Granted, many DCS don't stand for these things either due
>to lack of desire, information or whatever, but I
>personally can't relate to that... hence my perspective on
>this.
>
Sure DBI's wouldn't fight for reparations if they would not be entitled to benefit from them, but I can't think of any other issue where DBIs and DCS interest aren't perfectly aligned.
And yeah alot of schools use DBIs to fulfill their diversity with DBIs. Never occured to me that this was an issue there. I guess it depends on whether diversity and affirmative action is designed to make amends for slavery or whether it is to be more reflective of the word. IDK. To me it always turned on whether that black person would turn around and contribute back the the black (DCS +DBI) community. I have had problem with diversity programs that just end up getting affluent black folks who aren't really contributors to their communities. I rather see a be spot given to a down DBI than a not down DCS.
>
>
>
>>Was Biggie Smalls or Busta Rhymes use of black slang
>>misappropiation because they are DBI?
>
>
>
>
>Not that I could tell. There's a difference in appropriation
>and MISappropriation tho. As far as I know tho, both of them
>were raised speaking the way they spoke. I'm not sure tho.
>Thing is, I couldn't hear misappropriation from either and
>don't know anyone else who could... unlike Issa's situation
>with isisbabyboy and myself.
>
>
>
>>Now, I think you would have had a much better argument which
>I
>>would partially actually agree with if you argued that she
>was
>>"misappropriating" the language of certain type of black
>>people because she grew up around white people, was from a
>>privileged background and learned later to appropriate a
>>certain type of "street" (for lack of a better term)
>language.
>>I thought that is where you were going with it hence my
>>initial question to you.
>>
>>That I get and have seen first hand. Fancy ass kids who try
>>extra hard to sound down and over do it. That would make
>>sense to me. Which is really the source of my original
>>question I think.
>>
>>
>>But you made the distinction on language based on whether
>the
>>black person is DCS or DBI. I don't see how whether someone
>>is entitled to reparations has any bearing on their use of
>the
>>n word. That I would love an elaboration on.
>
>
>
>Well like I was saying above, being raised around white
>folks is just part of it, and that's the part that makes
>it possible for even a DCS to misappropriate. The
>immigrant situation just adds another possible layer
>of outsiderism and judgment.
>Meaning, sometimes immigrants' attitudes about us aren't
>the best, and the children are taught this directly or
>indirectly. This isn't necessarily the *basis* of my
>presentation... I just think it's all equally important.
>Of course this isn't always the case, but it's possible.
>I've seen it multiple times.
Yeah I give you that there are plenty of DBI raised to think they are better than DCS. But I would also add that there are many DCS who are raised to think they are better than other black people. Jessica Williams seems to have way more fcuked up opinions of black people then issa and JW I believe is DBS. Again, my point is it doesn't turn on whether someone is DCS versus DBI, to me it's more like how you were raised.
>
>
>
>>>The authenticity of her presentation doesn't determine
>>>the authenticity of her blackness. That's YOUR idea of
>>>blackness
>>>(hell even her statements that I quoted suggest she was
>>>talking about a TYPE of blackness, so authenticity is a
>>>whole different philosophical conversation to be had)
>>>so I'm asking for the last time that you stop projecting
>>>that onto me. I don't know who told you that you weren't
>>>Black in the past, but it wasn't me. If anything, I've
>>>told you that it's something you can't escape.
>>>
>>
>>Mayne ain't nobody quesitoning my blackness. And I am sure
>in
>>your mind it took you to school me that I can't escape (as
>if
>>I would want to) my blackness. SMH.
>
>
>
>
>That's not what I'm saying. All I'm saying is that I'd be
>the last one to claim that your or anyone else's
>blackness wasn't authentic. That concept does't make
>sense to me. For example, I'd say something like
>"Obama doesn't represent DCS" or even that he's black,
>not Black... but I'd never say he's "not authentically
>black."
>I'm much too specific to even think of blackness in those
>terms.
OK. even without accepting the Black versus black, I understand your position better now.
>
>
>>>I didn't say she wasn't expressing an authentic feeling.
>>>This was the point of the term "per se." Again, it was
>>>the way she expressed it.
>>>As for her reminding you of every woman you went to
>>>college with, that's cool. Maybe I see something you
>>>don't see. You've said your wife's story is similiar
>>>to Issa's, so this was immediately personal for you.
>>
>>I don't think I ever said that. They share in common both
>>being DBI but my wife's experience sounds like the opposite
>of
>>Issa. She grow up mostly in a non-white environment and only
>>got surrounded by white folks when she got much older.
>
>
>
>Ah ok. Then she was a bad comparison if those non-white
>people were DCS, but I think we're clear on that now.
>
>
>
>>>It's fine that you disagree. There's much more to being
>>>descendants of slaves than visiting plantations.
>>>Generational trauma, PTSS, just for starters. But if these
>>>things don't matter to you, or you don't see how they would
>>>influence the writing of characters and how they're
>>presented
>>>and interpreted by a writer, then that's cool, because my
>>>initial information wasn't for you. It was for someone who
>>>already sees it.
>>>
>>
>>Yeah this is a point we disagree with. I think there is not
>a
>>lot of difference between the way DBI and DCS experience the
>>world (To clarify, I do think First Generation Black
>>Immigrants definitely experience the US different from DCS,
>>but once you are born here, that experience is
>indiscernible).
>> And I based that opinion on having spent much time in both
>>types of households and having a mix of friends from both
>>backgrounds.
>
>
>Respect.
>
>In closing, I just wanna make it clear that I consider
>all black people my people, because some people tend
>to think this kind of conversation is divisive or
>unnecessary, but I think we have to talk about the unique
>claim that descendants of chattel slaves have in
>America and how black immigrants can stand WITH us
>and advocate for us if they wish to speak on our behalf.
In closing I will say it was a good convo once we got pass the old beef. You are definitely a smart, passionate dude which I respect. I sincerely will make an effort to be more respectful and productive in the future.
**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"
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