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Subject: "Basic Income - Are you for or against ? Could it work ? (link)" Previous topic | Next topic
Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
24419 posts
Thu Jun-01-17 11:18 AM

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"Poll question: Basic Income - Are you for or against ? Could it work ? (link)"
Thu Jun-01-17 11:28 AM by Brew

          

Came across this article this morning and Nixon's plan is something I somehow never really knew about. I've never done expansive research on the subject of basic income in general, either, but in theory I have always supported this type of program. And in my minimal research about it over the years, I've never come across any compelling evidence that it has ever failed, though it appears that examples of it even being implemented are few and far between to say the least.

I'm interested to hear others' thoughts about the idea of a universal basic income, and want to learn more about it (and hope to in this post from people more versed on the subject than I). Obviously being that we have a classroom of 11 year olds currently occupying the White House, we won't even hear of a policy like this being considered for the 4 years or more. But I'd hope that in my lifetime this is a subject that is seriously revisited by someone with more brains than Nixon.

Anyway toss a vote and explain yourself below. Like I said I'm hoping to learn a lot here.

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2016/05/richard-nixon-ubi-basic-income-welfare/

Poll result (20 votes)
I'm for it, and think it would work. (13 votes)Vote
I'm for it in theory, but doubt it would ever work. (2 votes)Vote
I'm against it, but think it could work if ... (1 votes)Vote
I'm against it, it could never ever work. (4 votes)Vote
I don't know. (0 votes)Vote
Don't care. (0 votes)Vote

  

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
Im fighting that war in the $15 dollar min wage post, lol
Jun 01st 2017
1
Hahah I haven't even been in that post but just saw it.
Jun 01st 2017
2
I could only imagine the stipulations the GOP would put on that
Jun 01st 2017
3
LOL totally.
Jun 01st 2017
4
nevermind.
Jun 01st 2017
5
Why would child care expenses come out of that 10k?
Jun 01st 2017
6
      i'm not here.
Jun 01st 2017
7
           My point is, why would a fam relying on base income need child care?
Jun 01st 2017
8
           --
Jun 01st 2017
9
           10k is basically 800 dollars a month
Jun 01st 2017
11
                I'm not going to debate dollars. I'm discussing the idea
Jun 01st 2017
16
                     The problem is that there WON'T be opportunities to work in the future
Jun 01st 2017
19
                     Fair enough but ...
Jun 01st 2017
22
                     I tend to agree with this.
Jun 01st 2017
21
           Child care
Jun 01st 2017
12
                Y'all are missing my point. And goofy So what is upset over nonsense lol
Jun 01st 2017
17
                whoa
Jun 01st 2017
18
                $1600? where do you live?
Jun 01st 2017
29
                     Between
Jun 01st 2017
32
                          I figured it was prolly DC, NYC or Cali
Jun 01st 2017
33
                               Oh yeah it's no joke
Jun 01st 2017
35
I think it's worth experimenting with on a small scale and scaling
Jun 01st 2017
10
I am too.
Jun 01st 2017
20
Well there are a couple of things I am concerned about.
Jun 01st 2017
25
      There's no perfect solution.
Jun 01st 2017
37
I don't think it's being presented as a cure for poverty.
Jun 01st 2017
27
Not gonna lie, I have visions of folks sitting on the steps all day w/ t...
Jun 01st 2017
13
rent in poorer areas would go from 400 to 800...
Jun 01st 2017
15
Your vision is reasonable.
Jun 01st 2017
28
I'm 50/50 on this as well
Jun 01st 2017
14
At some point, our economy is going to have to change
Jun 01st 2017
23
Sigh ... total agreement here.
Jun 01st 2017
24
yeah man, this country is f*cked
Jun 01st 2017
41
      Dogg I've realized more and more that Clinton's ...
Jun 01st 2017
42
we need to be more community based
Jun 01st 2017
26
I can't figure it out.
Jun 01st 2017
30
      bruh, this is where we are with it
Jun 01st 2017
36
      Best decision I ever made.
Jun 01st 2017
39
      the "free market" isn't a real thing.
Jun 01st 2017
43
           You don't say?
Jun 02nd 2017
50
The "jobs" already exist, they are just being outsourced right now...
Jun 01st 2017
34
Of course it could work
Jun 01st 2017
31
what happens if they cut that BI off after 5 years?
Jun 01st 2017
38
lol
Jun 01st 2017
40
LOL.
Jun 02nd 2017
44
Other countries have tried this and failed...
Jun 02nd 2017
45
#2 is the scariest one
Jun 02nd 2017
46
Venezuela is the modern-day example of #2.
Jun 03rd 2017
52
This is exactly the kind of insight I was looking for. Thanks.
Jun 02nd 2017
47
Blue
Jun 02nd 2017
48
Haha well I dunno if this is the argument to make ...
Jun 02nd 2017
49
Sounds great, but why does everyone ignore inflation?
Jun 02nd 2017
51
imo we dont need a basic income,
Jun 04th 2017
53

BigReg
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Thu Jun-01-17 11:31 AM

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1. "Im fighting that war in the $15 dollar min wage post, lol"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I don't think it will ever happen in the US with a multi generational shift in goals/ideals...by that time the US will look like a mix of mad max and blade runner, lol.

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
24419 posts
Thu Jun-01-17 11:33 AM

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2. "Hahah I haven't even been in that post but just saw it."
In response to Reply # 1


          

But - your answer is sort of what I was most expecting to see in response to this post. That, yea, I support it and it WOULD work, but US political bullshit won't allow it.

And that makes me sad. Haha.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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RobOne4
Member since Jun 06th 2003
56697 posts
Thu Jun-01-17 11:37 AM

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3. "I could only imagine the stipulations the GOP would put on that"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

if it ever got through you know Republicans would start trying to add all kinds of shit to ensure nobody gets it. Oh if you are a felon no basic income for you. If you haven't been employed in the last 6 months no basic income for you. You have to take a piss test every 6 months. If you have a felon in your family no basic income for you. If it ever got through that shit would get hacked to shit anytime the GOP gets some power.

November 8th, 2005 The greatest night in the history of GD!

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
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Thu Jun-01-17 11:37 AM

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4. "LOL totally."
In response to Reply # 3


          

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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SoWhat
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Thu Jun-01-17 11:44 AM

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5. "nevermind."
In response to Reply # 0
Thu Jun-01-17 11:59 AM by SoWhat

  

          

.

fuck you.

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
15894 posts
Thu Jun-01-17 11:49 AM

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6. "Why would child care expenses come out of that 10k?"
In response to Reply # 5


          



>hell the fuck no.
>
>b/c if they did that you know they'd want to get rid of all
>federally funded entitlement programs, right?
>
>what in the hell is $10K for a family of 4? is that even
>child care for ONE child?
>
>please.
>
>no.
>
>it ain't shit.

_______________________________________

  

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SoWhat
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Thu Jun-01-17 11:51 AM

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7. "i'm not here."
In response to Reply # 6
Thu Jun-01-17 11:58 AM by SoWhat

  

          

this isn't happening.

fuck you.

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
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Thu Jun-01-17 11:55 AM

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8. "My point is, why would a fam relying on base income need child care?"
In response to Reply # 7
Thu Jun-01-17 11:56 AM by PimpTrickGangstaClik

          

They are not working. What is the use for child care?

The 10k would be for basic needs (food, shelter, clothing, etc). If they want more than basic needs, they could work to supplement that basic income

_______________________________________

  

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SoWhat
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Thu Jun-01-17 11:57 AM

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9. "--"
In response to Reply # 8
Thu Jun-01-17 11:58 AM by SoWhat

  

          

.

fuck you.

  

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BigReg
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Thu Jun-01-17 12:01 PM

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11. "10k is basically 800 dollars a month"
In response to Reply # 8
Thu Jun-01-17 12:03 PM by BigReg

  

          

which is nothing

Lets say you go the Raisin in the Sun route for a family of four

$400 dollar rent where everyone is stuffed in a one bedroom in the distant hood
$200 dollars a month on food which is basically going to have to be heavy on the fast and cheap side
$100 dollars for utilities (hopefully covers electric and heating, no cable, no cellphones, no internet)
$100 dollars for transportation (either a passed down beater or the bus)

so now we just got 30 bucks to spare, lol. A more realistic number would be to DOUBLE the above and still you're living in cockroach and expired frosted flakes world.


  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
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Thu Jun-01-17 12:10 PM

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16. "I'm not going to debate dollars. I'm discussing the idea"
In response to Reply # 11


          

But yeah if you are just on the basic income with no supplements, life should be a struggle.

If people are given the freedom to choose not to work and still receive support, the result of the choice has to unpleasant.

_______________________________________

  

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BigReg
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Thu Jun-01-17 12:22 PM

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19. "The problem is that there WON'T be opportunities to work in the future"
In response to Reply # 16
Thu Jun-01-17 12:24 PM by BigReg

  

          

>If people are given the freedom to choose not to work and
>still receive support, the result of the choice has to
>unpleasant.

We already currently have a taste where college educated are effectively working 'down' and working/competing in careers that used to go to those with just high school diplomas; and everything in the cards points to it getting worse. If there was going to be plentiful employment we wouldn't be discussing such a drastic social safety net.

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
24419 posts
Thu Jun-01-17 12:44 PM

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22. "Fair enough but ..."
In response to Reply # 19


          

>We already currently have a taste where college educated are
>effectively working 'down' and working/competing in careers
>that used to go to those with just high school diplomas; and
>everything in the cards points to it getting worse. If there
>was going to be plentiful employment we wouldn't be discussing
>such a drastic social safety net.

I think this is something that, if implemented say today at $10k, would have to be revisited as jobs become more and more automated. Do I necessarily trust our elected officials to do the right thing and raise the universal income to reflect the current state of the economy ? Haha no. But we are discussing the idea and *how* it could potentially work.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
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Thu Jun-01-17 12:42 PM

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21. "I tend to agree with this."
In response to Reply # 16


          

>But yeah if you are just on the basic income with no
>supplements, life should be a struggle.
>
>If people are given the freedom to choose not to work and
>still receive support, the result of the choice has to
>unpleasant.

Also agree about $10k not being for child support. It's an assistance program to get you on your feet.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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rhchick
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Thu Jun-01-17 12:03 PM

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12. "Child care"
In response to Reply # 7


          

Depending on the age and type of child care like home care or a facility vs your neighbor (if that's your thing).

We chose a facility and because we have an infant we pay $1600 a month for the spot. Once he hits toddler age it will drop to 1k.

Even if you have an older child that needs after school care like YMCA can still cost up to $500 a month. A family of 4 cannot live on $10k anywhere.

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
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Thu Jun-01-17 12:13 PM

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17. "Y'all are missing my point. And goofy So what is upset over nonsense lol"
In response to Reply # 12


          

If you are not working, WHY WOULD YOU NEED CHILDCARE?

You sending the kids off to daycare while you're sitting around the house?

_______________________________________

  

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rhchick
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Thu Jun-01-17 12:17 PM

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18. "whoa"
In response to Reply # 17


          

I'm just clarifying the cost of child care period.

Also yes people that don't work do put their children in daycare for multiple reasons. I live among the land of housewives and they do part-time care for a 'break' away from the kids.

Also remember that people might be in the position of looking for a job and still need help.

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Thu Jun-01-17 01:33 PM

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29. "$1600? where do you live? "
In response to Reply # 12


          

I'm sorry but someone is staying home with the child for a few years.

I have 2 little ones and we are struggling with the daycare vs stay at home.

I cringe at the idea of paying someone else to watch our kids.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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rhchick
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32. "Between "
In response to Reply # 29


          

the Housewives of OC and Disneyland.

Most often I've found that if people around here have 2 or more kids, they are on one income. Essentially whomever is making less is working to just pay for daycare.

You have to weigh your pros and cons.

  

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legsdiamond
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Thu Jun-01-17 02:34 PM

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33. "I figured it was prolly DC, NYC or Cali"
In response to Reply # 32


          

those numbers are crazy.





****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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rhchick
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35. "Oh yeah it's no joke"
In response to Reply # 33


          

One place we considered charged $2300 but the wait list was 6 months long and we needed something sooner.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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Thu Jun-01-17 12:00 PM

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10. "I think it's worth experimenting with on a small scale and scaling"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

it up more and more if it proves successful.

I am skeptical that it's the cure-all for poverty though.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
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Thu Jun-01-17 12:33 PM

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20. "I am too."
In response to Reply # 10


          

>I am skeptical that it's the cure-all for poverty though.

Mostly because I don't think a cure-all exists.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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25. "Well there are a couple of things I am concerned about."
In response to Reply # 20


  

          

1. If you give a guy $100 and he blows it on stupid stuff and not the essentials then what? I don't think most poor people would do that but what do you do with that small group who does? Provide no other welfare services to them?


2. I am no economist but if a loaf a bread cost $10 and you give everyone $10 doesn't the cost of bread just go up?


>>I am skeptical that it's the cure-all for poverty though.
>
>Mostly because I don't think a cure-all exists.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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Brew
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Thu Jun-01-17 02:38 PM

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37. "There's no perfect solution."
In response to Reply # 25
Thu Jun-01-17 02:43 PM by Brew

          

>1. If you give a guy $100 and he blows it on stupid stuff
>and not the essentials then what? I don't think most poor
>people would do that but what do you do with that small group
>who does? Provide no other welfare services to them?

The ACA is proof of that. It's imperfect and needs to be tweaked but at the very least there's MILLIONS of people who now have access to coverage that they previously did not have. And I always support legislation that takes care of more people as opposed to less, even if there are some hangers-on taking advantage of the system. Those people will always be there. It's the honest, hard-working folks that just need an opportunity that I want to take care of.

This falls into that category. No matter what your solution is, there will be people who decide to take advantage of it for whatever reason. But if you give UBI to 100 people who were previously broke and living in poverty, and 10 take advantage ... I'm focused on and happy about the 90 people that now have a pot to piss in and used it as a stepping stone.


>2. I am no economist but if a loaf a bread cost $10 and you
>give everyone $10 doesn't the cost of bread just go up?

Haha right and I guess this kind of relates to what some others have said in the $15 minimum wage post ... that capitalism/the US system is the problem, not the specific legislation.

In other words I don't really have a good answer for that problem.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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denny
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Thu Jun-01-17 01:29 PM

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27. "I don't think it's being presented as a cure for poverty."
In response to Reply # 10


          

I support it as a preparation for more and more automation and a sharp incline of joblessness. I don't think it addresses current needs...I think it addresses future needs.

  

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flipnile
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13. "Not gonna lie, I have visions of folks sitting on the steps all day w/ t..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

I'd rather see more job creation than something like this. Also, I don't trust the government not to screw with this until it becomes (as usual) something that holds poor people back while empowering the rich classes here in the US.

  

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legsdiamond
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Thu Jun-01-17 12:08 PM

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15. "rent in poorer areas would go from 400 to 800..."
In response to Reply # 13


          

I also don't think you can give people money and expect the majority to spend it wisely.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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denny
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Thu Jun-01-17 01:32 PM

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28. "Your vision is reasonable."
In response to Reply # 13
Thu Jun-01-17 01:34 PM by denny

          

Not as a function of laziness...but as a function of technology. Too many people, not enough jobs. If we don't set a baseline of living standards in preparation for mass unemployment....we run the risk of a complete breakdown of law and order. A hundred million people aren't going to peacefully starve to death in proximity of wealth.

  

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legsdiamond
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Thu Jun-01-17 12:06 PM

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14. "I'm 50/50 on this as well"
In response to Reply # 0


          

it would allow for some folks to take risk, not feel like slaves to their job...

but at the same time. what would really change? I'm sure inflation would sky rocket too

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Stadiq
Member since Dec 21st 2005
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Thu Jun-01-17 12:45 PM

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23. "At some point, our economy is going to have to change"
In response to Reply # 0
Thu Jun-01-17 12:46 PM by Stadiq

          

in big, big ways.

I'm not sure if BI is the answer...but something will need to change.

Population growth + automation + entire industries dying off + Amazon types + Uber types + globalization^2 ??


We are going to have to start thinking outside of the box at some point.

I mean, even the service industry is dying. I can go through my entire day, hell week, and not interact with an actual employee in the service industry thanks to kiosks, amazon, Uber (those aren't employees), etc.

Once the drones are ready, I won't even have to see a delivery driver.




I'm a little surprised at how some OKPs in here sound like Mitt Romney though.

"the answer is more jobs!" well, sure. Okay. From where?


The only way I see that happening is HUGE growth in the public sector. More jobs in clean energy, teaching, public-funded research, etc.

I say that because that is the only sector to me that can realistically resist the forces I listed above (globalization, automation, etc)


But that is as likely to happen as...well, as basic income.

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
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Thu Jun-01-17 12:47 PM

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24. "Sigh ... total agreement here."
In response to Reply # 23


          

>The only way I see that happening is HUGE growth in the public
>sector. More jobs in clean energy, teaching, public-funded
>research, etc.

^^^ a trillion times yes. Too bad we're going backwards in ... well, every single one of those areas.


>I say that because that is the only sector to me that can
>realistically resist the forces I listed above (globalization,
>automation, etc)
>
>
>But that is as likely to happen as...well, as basic income.

Sigh.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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Stadiq
Member since Dec 21st 2005
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Thu Jun-01-17 03:38 PM

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41. "yeah man, this country is f*cked"
In response to Reply # 24


          


For real.

I honestly had no idea Basic Income was even in the realm of discussion before and under of all people Nixon...thanks for posting.

(it was also a nice reminder on why to hate the Clintons, because that Reaganesque "personal responsibility" bull$hit continues to poison this country...even on the left, obviously)


The country has gone so far right you have folks on OKP, a pretty reliable lefty website- or at the very least, not a right wing website- laughing at the notion of basic income, worrying about "lazy people" and

in another thread, arguing against a minimum wage increase because some businesses might close if they have to pay people fairly...oh and prices will go up... over time.

??


I'm curious if this place would be more open to an increase in public works, like I mentioned above, and maybe something like decreasing the retirement age significantly to help us get to full employment in the future??

Like, it can't just be "we need more jobs"...that isn't an answer.

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
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42. "Dogg I've realized more and more that Clinton's ..."
In response to Reply # 41
Thu Jun-01-17 08:27 PM by Brew

          

>(it was also a nice reminder on why to hate the Clintons,
>because that Reaganesque "personal responsibility" bull$hit
>continues to poison this country...even on the left,
>obviously)

... success and reputation as one of the great Presidents of our lifetime hinges largely on the tech bubble and the economic boom during his years as a result of said tech bubble. I used to fight people who tried to claim that.

He was a fantastic politician but damn if I haven't been significantly disappointed by stories like this one that I've learned about in the last 3 or 4 years ("super predators" being another, tho that was HRC) after previously believing Clinton to be one of the GOATs.


>The country has gone so far right you have folks on OKP, a
>pretty reliable lefty website- or at the very least, not a
>right wing website- laughing at the notion of basic income,
>worrying about "lazy people" and
>
>in another thread, arguing against a minimum wage increase
>because some businesses might close if they have to pay people
>fairly...oh and prices will go up... over time.

Shows you how strong rhetoric and propaganda truly is. It's so sad.


>I'm curious if this place would be more open to an increase in
>public works, like I mentioned above, and maybe something like
>decreasing the retirement age significantly to help us get to
>full employment in the future??
>
>Like, it can't just be "we need more jobs"...that isn't an
>answer.

Agree.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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26. "we need to be more community based"
In response to Reply # 23


          

$1600 a month for child care? That's outrageous.

every neighborhood should have a neighbor daycare spot for a fraction of that cost.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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30. "I can't figure it out."
In response to Reply # 26
Thu Jun-01-17 01:51 PM by denny

          

I've looked around online and can't find a legitimate reason why childcare costs have skyrocketed so much. I assumed it was mostly attributable to liability insurance but apparently not. You'd think the free market and competitive pricing would take of this. IE...who wouldn't want to open up a small daycare in their home at $1200 a pop? But even with the ridiculous cost...apparently small daycare businesses aren't very profitable.

Regulations have become stricter...but even that is hard to peg down as the reason. I'm at a loss. I stayed home with my bio-daughter for two years because of daycare costs and that was almost 15 years ago. There's even less incentive to work now. After doing the math...I would've been making $3 per hour or something like that. It was better to just make small cuts in my budget and bond with my daughter than to work.

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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36. "bruh, this is where we are with it"
In response to Reply # 30


          

my wife has a chance to work and I'm not really feeling it.

I'll prolly stay home if she wants to work that bad. (she really loves to work).

I can't fathom someone else taking care of my kid and when we tried it for a few months I cringed when I saw the photos.

I'm unrealistic tho because I don't even want to drop her off at the Y so I can work out. I cancelled my membership and take her for walks while pushing her on her tricycle.

I want to spend as much time as possible with them before they go to school

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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denny
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39. "Best decision I ever made."
In response to Reply # 36


          

I'd highly recommend it. Especially for men who let's face it...tend to be the ones who miss out on the formative years. I wouldn't be the same parent today if I didn't stay home for that stretch of time. I wish more men had the chance to do it.

  

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rob
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43. "the "free market" isn't a real thing. "
In response to Reply # 30


  

          

not how it's conceptualized in american politics. competition, information, and availability never work the way they're modeled.

we have cheap prices for goods because technology has made exploitation at a distance more efficient.

you look at industries that involve personal services or local investment in infrastructure and we don't have cheap prices.

and let's not start on the labor side of the equations.

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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50. "You don't say?"
In response to Reply # 43
Fri Jun-02-17 10:21 AM by denny

          

You mean there's NOT an infinite number of companies in an infinite number of industries with an infinite population of people?

Of course it's not a 'real thing'. It's a theoretical framework or model. But the principles that the model is based on are very real. For example....an industry in which there is only one company, a monopoly, will have higher prices than an industry with 50 competing companies.

And hate to break it to you....but we are not surrounded by all these wonderful things JUST because of exploitation. That's an extremely over-simplified worldview.

  

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flipnile
Member since Nov 05th 2003
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34. "The "jobs" already exist, they are just being outsourced right now..."
In response to Reply # 23


          

...whether to another country, a contractor (w/o benefits), a computer or a robot.

>"the answer is more jobs!" well, sure. Okay. From where?

The real answer is that outsourcing jobs (from a US perspective) at essentially sweatshop prices is very good for the handful of right folks, but terrible for the rest of us. All of this automation, outsourcing and job elimination is just the rich folks doing what is best for THEM and THEIR bank accounts.

The economy is fundamentally broken, and to fix it means getting those rich folks out the paint.

This 'Basic Income' talk doesn't seem like it addresses ANY of the fundamental issues in our economy, but rather seems like a modern form of welfare. A system to further control people, rather than setting them free.

  

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Musa
Member since Mar 08th 2006
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31. "Of course it could work"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

but this society is based on slavery like most European based and Euro diaspora societies so I have major doubts.

<----

Soundcloud.com/aquil84

(HIP HOP)
http://aquil.bandcamp.com

  

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legsdiamond
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38. "what happens if they cut that BI off after 5 years? "
In response to Reply # 31


          

it would be hell on earth.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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denny
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40. "lol"
In response to Reply # 31


          

As compared to where and when?

  

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Shaun Tha Don
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44. "LOL."
In response to Reply # 31
Fri Jun-02-17 02:46 AM by Shaun Tha Don

          

.

Rest In Peace, Bad News Brown

  

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Vertigo
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45. "Other countries have tried this and failed..."
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Jun-02-17 08:08 AM by Vertigo

          

That's not to say it *can't* work if done correctly--but I think this is one of those things that has to be done *just right*--or it'll get really, really bad.

The most obvious examples out right now are the Persian Gulf Arab countries--the wealthiest ones (UAE, Kuwait, etc)--all have a version of basic income to all their citizens (paid for by the State owned oil).

Now one thing you could immediately observe is that these are somewhat extreme examples of basic income. In these countries, the basic income is so high that you really don't have to work if you don't want to. (also because they also provide other benefits for nearly free--health care, schools, etc) So take these case studies with a grain of salt because in the US we wouldn't give people that much money.

BUT the biggest (negative) things I've observed as a result of this income are these:

1) Being a citizen is much, much more critically important. IE, who gets a check and who doesn't. If you thought we have problems now with immigration--wait until something like this is introduced. In the Gulf, it's a HUGE problem--you have an entire class of people that are "half" citizens (mom is a citizen, dad is not)--the kids aren't citizens because the citizenship goes through the dad--but they aren't completely foreigners either. They end up in this purgatory status--but the important thing is they don't get a check. This has led to riots, violence, scams, you name it.

2) The money ultimately becomes a control mechanism by the State--it's quite simple--the ruling party promises either to keep the checks coming or increase them if they go along with whatever half brained idea they want. So the public becomes a rubber stamp to the gov't and essentially agrees to a dictatorship as long as the money keeps coming in. Essentially people check out of the political process.

3) People become lazy--this one may not happen in the US because the amount won't be as high. But in the Gulf states, many families can afford to get by without working or barely working--so many don't--or they have hired help for EVERYTHING. The result is their kids are spoiled brats--you're seeing that now over there--the oil started rolling in in the 70's...these countries went from being relatively poor to obscenely wealthy overnight. So these kids of the all money/no work generation are now the bulk of the population. It's a lot of people who don't know how to work at all--which is tied into point number 2--sit back on the yacht and let the gov't do whatever they want to keep those checks coming in.

Anyway, there's more--but the point is that--if one studies current countries with these sort of systems, the conclusion is generally that it's not the best idea to do, because the repercussions and unintended consequences can be catastrophic to a society--unless everything goes *absolutely perfect*--which never happens.

  

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legsdiamond
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46. "#2 is the scariest one"
In response to Reply # 45


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Shaun Tha Don
Member since Nov 19th 2005
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52. "Venezuela is the modern-day example of #2."
In response to Reply # 46


          

Rest In Peace, Bad News Brown

  

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Brew
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47. "This is exactly the kind of insight I was looking for. Thanks."
In response to Reply # 45


          

I didn't know of these instances, and the pitfalls make sense and are scary to consider. As you said, the hope would be that the US wouldn't implement a system paying nearly as much as those you reference but still, there's potential for those downsides to rear their heads if not done perfectly.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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willi_dudat
Member since Jul 26th 2005
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48. "Blue"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I have very little faith that all people, though created equal, can handle actually being equals

also

how much is enough? THAT is subjective like a mfkr.

"It's the return of the gangsta, thanks ta..."

-du

  

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Brew
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49. "Haha well I dunno if this is the argument to make ..."
In response to Reply # 48
Fri Jun-02-17 09:00 AM by Brew

          

>I have very little faith that all people, though created
>equal, can handle actually being equals

No system will be perfect, and there will always be people who take advantage of such a privilege. But the alternative being the poverty we have now .... I dunno. Neither is ideal but if the majority of people given that leg to stand on use it as a stepping stone to better themselves I would consider that a win. The stragglers exist no matter what you do. It's the good folks who just need an opportunity we should be concerned about.

>also
>
>how much is enough? THAT is subjective like a mfkr.

It's not subjective at all man. Or at least it doesn't have to be. The Nixon folks collected a ton of data to determine what that number should be, which at the time was a herculean task but considering all the census data the US takes these days it won't be nearly as difficult now. Plus the amount can even be adjusted to reflect actual cost of living in each area, things like that. Plenty of analysis would have to go into something like this but they're not just gonna pull a number out of thin air homie. Haha

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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AZ
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51. "Sounds great, but why does everyone ignore inflation?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I've heard pro arguments from both the left and from the libertarian types, but no one talks about the inflation that would result from a big spike in the money supply. Am I missing something here?

  

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Mr. ManC
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53. "imo we dont need a basic income,"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

We need a basic outcome.

Get rid of the minimum wage entirely.

Provide every citizen with access to food, housing, health care, education as a right with standards maintained by the government.

Divorce human existence and sustenance from the corporate model and lets see how many people get off their couch to work at McDonals. We could replace it automation any way. That is the underlying issue.

________________________________________________
R.I.P. Soulgyal <3
SUPA NERD LLC.
Knowledge Meets Nature
Musica Negra
#13irteen

  

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