http://www.facesof15.com/

Consequences of the $15 minimum wage hike

Unions and activists say the costs of minimum wage hikes are negligible. But the real faces of $15—and of other dramatic hikes in the minimum wage—are the employers who struggle to offset those costs. As these stories show, their actions often mean fewer opportunities for the employees these laws are meant to help.


------------------

bullshit or nah? I'm still on the fence. Wage hikes for large corps are easy but for small businesses? I still think it's insane to expect a burger flipper to make $15

so is this website some right wing conservative idea? Is it just the price of being small biz and some fail and some thrive every year cause that's how biz works or is there some truth in this?

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TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

is that they never offer a counter argument

"employers will suffer...."

ok, and, well, what is the solution then?

***********************************************************
https://soundcloud.com/swageyph/yph-die-with-me

them a non-livable wage, you don't have a business, you have a hustle/scam/con.

and people apply I'm not exploiting them.

They don't have to apply.

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TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

you just gave an almost textbook definition/example of what exploitation is by saying, "hey if I offer and they accept" it must be ok.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

I lean away from the details of he job itself as far as wages go and toward whether or not the job can bear a given wage.

To me that's the only detail that matters.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

=======================================
Coolin...

He... doesn't seem like he actually cares about small businesses. Or possibly has ever met a small business owner.

Also, flipping burgers is fucking hard. I was young and energetic when I did it and I came home hot, smelly, and exhausted at the end of the day. Throw in a watch-every-dime management strategy that would cut staff every time the crowd was light and it becomes extremely difficult to supplement that income meaningfully.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Rick_Berman

Richard B. (Rick) Berman is a former labor management attorney and restaurant industry executive who, with his firm Berman & Co., currently works as a Washington, D.C. lobbyist for the food, alcoholic beverage, and tobacco industries as well as hotels, beer distributors, taverns, and restaurant chains. Berman & Co. has lobbied for companies such as Cracker Barrel, Hooters, International House of Pancakes, Olive Garden, Outback Steakhouse, Red Lobster, Steak & Ale, TGI Friday's, Uno's Restaurants, and Wendy's.

Berman has earned the nicknames "Dr. Evil," the "Conservatives' Weapon of Mass Destruction" and the "Astroturf Kingpin" for his repeated use of the strategy of forming dozens of non-profit front groups, attack-dog web sites, and alleged think tanks that defend his corporate clients' interests by attacking their critics, allowing his paying clients to remain out of public view.
Berman's many front groups work to counteract minimum wage campaigns, keep wages low for restaurant workers, and to block legislation on food safety, secondhand cigarette smoke, and drunk driving and more.

Since 2013, Berman and his Employment Policy Institute "think tank" have led a national fight against campaigns to raise the minimum wage and to provide paid sick leave for workers with renewed attacks on proponents (including the Center for Media and Democracy, publisher of SourceWatch), misleading reports, op-eds, TV and radio ads, and more, as reported by the New York Times. The New York Times has also reported that he "receives millions of dollars from business" in order to wage these campaigns.

Berman has also actively campaigned against any attempts to limit smoking in restaurants and bars. In testimony before the New York City Health Oversight Committee, Berman said, "The level of exposure to secondhand smoke for bartenders, waiters and waitresses is considerably lower than the federal air quality limits established by the federal government."

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

in every state. For a state such as NY or Cali? Yes because it's expensive to live there and even at $15/hr a person can't afford the basic necessities. The living wage in West VA or the Dakotas should be lower than the $15 because of the cost of living. this definitely should be a state issue, not a federal issue. The federal government should mandate all states pay the minimum cost of living hourly wage. And states should determine what that is, and enforce it.

With that said, I don't feel bad for small businesses who can't afford to pay their employees a living wage. That's part of owning a business, and as such, should be accounted for as they move forward in their business plan. If it's impossible to pay employees, then the owners have to work themselves. it is, after all, their business. so websites like those don't sway me in either way. it sucks BUT that's the cost of being a boss.

Also, $15 to flip hamburgers is kinda elitist considering that McDonalds and other fast food chains make millions on millions a day. They can definitely afford it. Chickfila pays all of their employees a minimum of $15 an hour...so if they can do it, so can these other places.

Pittsburgh?
Richmond?
Columbia, SC?

good luck with that

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

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TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

That's a NY price I'm quoting, I pay $8 for a meal at McDonalds too. it's the same price. They just don't have cheaper options like an MCD however, they do have this cute calendar that costs $10 that gets you a free entree once a month.

regardless if you think they are expensive or not, they aren't hurting for business at all. 80% of the time when I go, the lines are packed. That's in ANY state, not just here in NYC. Their employees are happy, their restaurants are clean, and the food is good. What's funny is McDonalds will up their prices if they have to pay $15, making them more expensive than Chickfila who has been paying that wage all along. Interesting.

they stay ahead of the curve too.

Sundays off, friendly service and they have people standing outside to take your order during rush hour

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Chick-fil-A-New-York-City-Salaries-EI_IE5873.0,11_IL.12,25_IM615.htm

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

they pay THEIR employees that way

https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/salaries-wages/2017/general-schedule/

=======================================
Coolin...

Your mom n pop pizza shop has to close up shop.


If you can't afford to pay your employees? Same result.


Its odd that as a society we kind of expect the workers to make less than they deserve so that the ideal of small business is never hurt.


I think the "small business" argument is made, very effectively, by the right and moderates to scare people out of making changes.

Like, "we can't possibly ask the hoagie spot to pay their employees more, what would happen?"


Again, same thing that would happen if their bread supplier increased prices.

So, yeah, I think the "small business" thing is a scam...a very effective one because it even causes folks on the left to pause.


You think $15 is outrageous, but it is because it hasn't kept up.

Like, why is it so outrageous to consider someone flipping burgers makes $15, but a CEO making 60 million or whatever is just kind of accepted at this point?




**However, I don't think the $15 dollar switch can be flipped over night. It would be chaos, especially in small towns.

I def believe money should rain down from large companies but a mom and pop? Nah...

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

that the workers are only working part-time, as teens making pocket money or whatever.

Or else they have fewer employees who are there full time, earning a living wage, to help that mom&pop shop flourish.

But I just can no longer try to make excuses for anyone trying to exploit their employees with underpaid labor, good intentions or not.

If you can't afford to fairly pay someone to help you run your shop, then run it by yourself.
If you need someone to help with that, then you need to reevaluate how much that work is worth.


Now let me get out of here before I seriously get in my feelings as a currently exploited low-wage worker.

and when that shop closes...

you can't eat off that "they don't deserve to be open"

maybe more people on OKP need to start businesses to fill the void?

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TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

The minimum wage has not kept up, do you disagree?

If you agree, then by definition, folks currently working minimum wage are being exploited....because their wage is not where it should be.

Because their wage hasn't kept up.

So the person making 8 bucks an hour at pizza hut AND the guy making 8 bucks at Legs pizza shop are under paid.

Now, if you say "okay, let the big corps pay more" I agree- they certainly deserve to pay more and are more guilty of exploitation simply because their profit shows they can afford to pay more RIGHT TODAY.

That said?

We don't expect that the small mom and pop burger place pay less for their electricity, water, etc.

But you think, in theory, it is okay that they pay their workers less?

The bills go up they have to figure it out. Same with labor.

As long as people keep this "but small business!" we won't get anywhere serious, because as someone creatively put it small business is basically used as a human shield by big business.

I wonder if "but small business!" is ever used to stop a flour supplier or something from increasing prices. (Just noticed all my small business examples are food related...guess I'm hungry? haha)


Now, maybe there could be some penalty tax for businesses based on CEO to employee pay ratio or whatever.

But at the end of the day, its time for that minimum wage to go up and everyone should have to pay it.


I don't think it can realistically be 15 next year, but there should be a plan to have it at 15 very soon, with a mechanism to have it rise more consistently.


Its crazy to me how well scare tactics and pie in the sky stuff works on Americans. Small business has become the placeholder for job creators....

That small business can't afford to pay their rent? their taxes? their supplier? Guess its time to shut down.

They can't afford to pay their workers, and have to shut down? "Those greedy workers!"

Makes no sense to me. Pro-business thinking is so ingrained in all of us, even folks on the left are willing to let their neighbors continue to make sh!t wages...


As far as your OKPs should open more businesses to fill the void, I get it. But again, if I can't afford to pay my bills, I can't open a business.

I can't tell the landlord "look, I'm a small business so cut me a break?"

We only ask that of workers. It's sad if you ask me.

I don't care who you are, if you can't pay your bills you shouldn't open a business. That includes paying people a fair wage.

>The minimum wage has not kept up, do you disagree?

definitely agree
>
>If you agree, then by definition, folks currently working
>minimum wage are being exploited....because their wage is not
>where it should be.

OK, I guess I can buy that
>
>Because their wage hasn't kept up.
>
>So the person making 8 bucks an hour at pizza hut AND the guy
>making 8 bucks at Legs pizza shop are under paid.
>
>Now, if you say "okay, let the big corps pay more" I agree-
>they certainly deserve to pay more and are more guilty of
>exploitation simply because their profit shows they can afford
>to pay more RIGHT TODAY.
>
>That said?
>
>We don't expect that the small mom and pop burger place pay
>less for their electricity, water, etc.

they do pay less tho.. not per kilowatt but they use far less energy.

>
>But you think, in theory, it is okay that they pay their
>workers less?

yes, I actually think it's ok for a mom and pop to pay less than a big box if it keeps their doors open. most times minimum wage is entry level, you aren't supposed to stay at a job that doesn't increase your pay once you show you are competent.
>
>The bills go up they have to figure it out. Same with labor.
>
>As long as people keep this "but small business!" we won't get
>anywhere serious, because as someone creatively put it small
>business is basically used as a human shield by big business.

but small business IS small business. I would like to think there is a way to enforce higher wages for big box vs mom and pops. It's not like tax advantages and incentives and writes offs are the same for big vs small biz. There should be flexibility and one doesn't have to be tied to the other.
>
>
>I wonder if "but small business!" is ever used to stop a flour
>supplier or something from increasing prices. (Just noticed
>all my small business examples are food related...guess I'm
>hungry? haha)
>
>
>Now, maybe there could be some penalty tax for businesses
>based on CEO to employee pay ratio or whatever.

yup

>
>But at the end of the day, its time for that minimum wage to
>go up and everyone should have to pay it.
>

I agree minimum wage needs to increase but $15 isn't going to solve the problem. Wages go up that fast and people get laid off, replaced by self check out and robots (burger flippers are already in the works and Walmart will install self checkout at every store)
>
>I don't think it can realistically be 15 next year, but there
>should be a plan to have it at 15 very soon, with a mechanism
>to have it rise more consistently.

I still think $15 in Ohio isn't sustainable. Some folk on here say businesses need to close but who wants to see businesses close? $15 minimum is great if I have a job BUT if 3 mom and pops close in Duluth Oh wtf am I supposed to do?
>
>Its crazy to me how well scare tactics and pie in the sky
>stuff works on Americans. Small business has become the
>placeholder for job creators....
>
>That small business can't afford to pay their rent? their
>taxes? their supplier? Guess its time to shut down.
>
>They can't afford to pay their workers, and have to shut down?
> "Those greedy workers!"
>
>Makes no sense to me. Pro-business thinking is so ingrained in
>all of us, even folks on the left are willing to let their
>neighbors continue to make sh!t wages...
>
>
>As far as your OKPs should open more businesses to fill the
>void, I get it. But again, if I can't afford to pay my bills,
>I can't open a business.
>
>I can't tell the landlord "look, I'm a small business so cut
>me a break?"
>
>We only ask that of workers. It's sad if you ask me.
>
>I don't care who you are, if you can't pay your bills you
>shouldn't open a business. That includes paying people a fair
>wage.
>
>
>
I feel you but I think we need to open more businesses. I work for a small business and while I would like to make more it's really up to me to stay or leave if I can't get what I think I'm worth.

I just think more of us need to take that risk/chance to own a small biz if it's as simple as some make it out to be.

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TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

A lot of reasons I haven't done it. That isn't my point. I honestly don't think it is anyone's point.

The point is, if you are going to own a business, you should be able to pay your employees a fair wage.


I will say that I can see your point about regional/state differences. I can see the merit in tying it to some kind of localized cost-of-living.


I wonder if we would see a lot of companies move their warehouses, etc to cheap areas?...well even more than we currently see that.

>You think $15 is outrageous, but it is because it hasn't kept
>up.
>
>Like, why is it so outrageous to consider someone flipping
>burgers makes $15, but a CEO making 60 million or whatever is
>just kind of accepted at this point?
>

and so is the suggestion that companies should pay different minimum wages in different states.

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Signature

-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.

if the faces of 15 is bullshit or not. I answered yes, employers who struggle to offset those costs is bullshit.

Someone else in the thread said states should offer living wages state by state instead of all the states making the minimum wage 15 an hr I disagree with that.

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Signature

>Someone else in the thread said states should offer living
>wages state by state instead of all the states making the
>minimum wage 15 an hr I disagree with that.

Cost of living varies wildly in this country. There is no reason to this to be a federal issue though. It's just unsustainable for many places.

You're such pests...now, what is it you want? In your depths of your ignorance, what is it you want? Well, whatever it is you want, I can't deliver because I just don't see it. - Orson Welles


Never Tired, Always Sleepy

$15 for Burger King and McDonalds?

the UE will increase and you know who will suffer the most? Black folk

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

going to put them out of business even if they are a mom and pop business. This data supports my opinion.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/no-raising-the-local-minimum-wage-doesnt-hurt-local-businesses/2016/02/26/4d6cabd0-dbed-11e5-925f-1d10062cc82d_story.html?utm_term=.ad1f4c2bf5d8

"Second, there are other ways to absorb higher wage costs than by laying off workers. Some evidence, for instance, suggests that companies raise prices, generally by less than 1 percent per every 10 percent increase in the wage. They may also become more efficient. The prospect of higher labor costs can incentivize employers to eliminate waste and to raise performance standards, while at the same time higher wages enhance workers’ motivation. Companies end up with less turnover and shorter vacancy periods when filling job slots."

"Finally, companies can cut profit margins or top-level salaries to meet higher wage mandates. This last mechanism is one reason such policies get so much pushback from business"

It's just greed

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Signature

>going to put them out of business even if they are a mom and
>pop business. This data supports my opinion.
>
>https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/no-raising-the-local-minimum-wage-doesnt-hurt-local-businesses/2016/02/26/4d6cabd0-dbed-11e5-925f-1d10062cc82d_story.html?utm_term=.ad1f4c2bf5d8

First off, thanks for this link. I will definitely check it out.
>
>"Second, there are other ways to absorb higher wage costs than
>by laying off workers. Some evidence, for instance, suggests
>that companies raise prices, generally by less than 1 percent
>per every 10 percent increase in the wage. They may also
>become more efficient. The prospect of higher labor costs can
>incentivize employers to eliminate waste and to raise
>performance standards, while at the same time higher wages
>enhance workers’ motivation. Companies end up with less
>turnover and shorter vacancy periods when filling job slots."
>
>"Finally, companies can cut profit margins or top-level
>salaries to meet higher wage mandates. This last mechanism is
>one reason such policies get so much pushback from business"
>
>It's just greed

I think that many businesses probably are unprepared to take the initial hit to their profits. They would eventually recover, but without cash reserves available to cover to initial jumps to the $15, they could possibly find themselves in a bad position.

Also, it depends on the type of margins the company is running on.

But your link has some information that is worth considering. I will take it under consideration. Thanks again for it.

You're such pests...now, what is it you want? In your depths of your ignorance, what is it you want? Well, whatever it is you want, I can't deliver because I just don't see it. - Orson Welles


Never Tired, Always Sleepy

for some business.

>First off, thanks for this link. I will definitely check it
>out.

You're welcome


>
>I think that many businesses probably are unprepared to take
>the initial hit to their profits. They would eventually
>recover, but without cash reserves available to cover to
>initial jumps to the $15, they could possibly find themselves
>in a bad position.

Fair enough, it can't be rushed.

>Also, it depends on the type of margins the company is running
>on.

True all companies are different.

>But your link has some information that is worth considering.
>I will take it under consideration. Thanks again for it.
>

You're welcome and thank you for the civil conversation.

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Signature

“…behind closed doors, Walmart officials were more frank about the reasons the company was …the company cited the District’s rising minimum wage, now at $11.50 an hour and possibly going to $15 an hour if a proposed ballot measure is successful in November.”

http://www.facesof15.com/business/walmart/

“We’re moving the call center to El Paso because California has become inhospitable to (telephone) interviewing jobs,” Nienstedt said. “Rather than moving it offshore, I wanted to move my call center somewhere in the United States.”

In June, San Diego city voters increased the city’s minimum wage from $10 to $10.50 per hour, rising to $11.50 on Jan. 1. Meanwhile, California is scheduled to lift its wage floor to $15 an hour by 2022, a level San Diego may or may not surpass with its inflation-adjusted formula. …

El Paso offered generally lower business costs, yet California’s rising wage floor was the deciding factor in moving the company’s call center, Nienstedt said Tuesday.

http://www.facesof15.com/business/competitive-edge-research-communications/

“The 215-room Clarion Hotel closed its full-service restaurant in December, laying off 15 people, said general manager Perry Wall. The hotel also let go a night desk clerk and maintenance employee and is considering a 10 percent increase in room rates for the spring travel season, Wall said.”

http://www.facesof15.com/business/clarion-hotel/

Italian deli and grocer A.G. Ferrari is closing the doors on all its shops after 98 years, in what the brand says is a move to focus on the national growth of its packaged goods. That includes four locations: Montclair Village and Piedmont Avenue in Oakland, and Laurel Village and SoMa in SF.

The shop has been serving customers in the Bay Area since 1919. Ahead of this announcement, Berkeley’s College Ave. location was closed in February due to “high overhead costs,” and employees were redistributed throughout its other stores.

http://www.facesof15.com/business/a-g-ferrari/

(In the sourced link, nowhere does it mention the minimum wage increase)

n/m

__

fairweather

Match Analysis, an Emeryville business with around 35 local staff, collects data on soccer matches, which it sells globally alongside analytical software. … the higher minimum wage has forced the firm to shed 13 data-collection jobs. This has mainly been achieved with a hiring freeze, but this month Mr Brunkhart had to lay-off six staff. These were the first redundancies in the firm’s history.

http://www.facesof15.com/business/match-analysis/

smfh!!

“The minimum wage has been really hard on us. We sell $3 items and we have to sell a lot of them,” Thrift Town owner Wendy Steinmetz explained. “The labor increases one after another have been hard to absorb.”

http://www.facesof15.com/business/thrift-town/

(for perspective, the average rent for an apartment in San Francisco is $3,548 a month, according to the Cost of Living Index. <according to Kiplinger>

***********************************************************
https://soundcloud.com/swageyph/yph-die-with-me

>We sell $3 items and we have to sell a lot of them

$3 for shit at the thrift is what I pay around here, where I can also buy a crib for $125k. Charge more then, I'm sure the folks around there can afford it.

Encuentro began as a wine bar in Jack London Square in 2009; it later made the move down the street to a larger space, with an expanded menu of vegan and vegetarian offerings in 2014.

Now, almost three years later, the restaurant will shut its doors due to “the rising costs of doing business.” It’s a familiar phrase these days as minimum wage rises (now $12.86 in Oakland as of January 1, 2017), and rents follow suit.

http://www.facesof15.com/business/encuentro/

The owner’s of the Quizno’s Bear Creek location announced that, “after 11 years operating here, the store will be permanently closed as of Monday May 16th 2016. (Our last day open will be Sunday May 15th) Unfortunately due to a string of crippling equipment repair bills, severe staffing issues, continually increasing costs due to the $15 minimum wage law, the near arrival of a new family member and two full time college schedules severely limiting the availability of both myself and my husband we just cannot stay open.

http://www.facesof15.com/business/quiznos/

The company said it needs to expand, but doing so in the Seattle area is too expensive. The main reason is increasingly expensive real estate, especially for the space it leases around the city to house its merchandise. ….

But labor costs — recently subject to a minimum wage of $15 per hour — also add up, especially as Cascade competes with brands that rely on cheap overseas labor, Maisonpierre said.

http://www.facesof15.com/business/cascade-designs/

A new McDonald’s on Sutter Street in San Francisco uses touch-screen kiosks rather than entry-level employees to take customer orders. San Francisco’s minimum wage increased to $12.25 an hour in May, one of the highest wage floors in the nation.

http://www.facesof15.com/business/mcdonalds/

Like they aren't trying to replace as many jobs with machines, lol. Niggas have been replacing jobs with self service kiosks in supermarkets even before this livable wage thing became a thing.

Like there's some tear eyed CEO snorting lines of cokes in a stripclub during his kids baseball game torn between cutting his employee and insurance fees by half and fucking over the poors.

there used to 25% self checkout. Now it's 60% self checkout.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

Companies will certainly employ a cost-benefit analysis. If wages increase...companies will invest more money on infrastructure that lessens their demand for workers. Their incentive to develop and implement that infrastructure is directly tied to wages. So it's completely reasonable to include that factor in any decision to hike minimum wages.

the goal is the minimal amount of workers possible because that's where a bunch of the overhead is and the market punishes you for not keeping those margins low.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-american-airlines-raises-20170427-story.html

Adjusted for inflation American workers in 2017 are cheaper* then they were 30 years ago.

*we can make the argument though that the stupid tradition of marrying healthcare and employment offsets the 'cheaper' prices companies are paying for labor since keeping them insured costs an arm and a leg.

... it's not a proper business and it's not a properly functioning part of an economy either.

Any job that takes up 40hrs of a person's life every week must pay what it costs for that person to live - to afford food and appropriate shelter for a family. That's just common sense.

That's not the case with rock-bottom wages over there and over here too; if companies don't pay enough, people have to lean on the State for the shortfall (housing assistance, medicaid, kids programs whatever) or they have to turn to crime for the shortfall, also passing the cost onto the State through policing and prisons.

Whatever way you cut it, paying workers shitty wages doesn't work long term. I don't know what the "magic" figure is (it's probably different for every zipcode, let's face it), but the majority of the rhetoric against minimum/living wages at the very least is bullshit.

_______________________________

))<>((
forever.

Federal and local government doesn't want to piss off big business so they cower to them and go soft on regulation because capitalism rules American economics.

Inflation has outpaced wages for years now.

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/07/21/adjusted-for-inflation-the-federal-minimum-wage-is-worth-less-than-50-years-ago.html

"Despite periodic increases, the buying power of the federal minimum wage hasn't kept up with inflation, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Data show that in 1968, the federal minimum was equivalent to $10.90 in 2015 dollars, nearly $4 higher than today's rate."

Add to that the real estate, medical and pharma industries have been allowed to pretty much run amok with pricing practices and the issue is compounded. Then put some automation and out-sourcing to foreign labor as the cherry on top and voila...clusterfudge.

A lot of these companies have made record profits over the last 10 yrs yet increasing wages is going to force them to lay people off? As stated earlier, they've BEEN eliminating jobs in retail with the self check out lines.

As far as small business goes, they should seek efficiency and save on costs where possible to meet wage demands. If you can't then you shouldn't be in business.

I personally think the wage floor should be based on a formula that weighs the cost of living (rent/mortgages, groceries, utilities, transportation, education, medical treatment and pharmaceutical costs). They should have one formula for Metropolitan areas (determine a population size, something like 1 mil people or more) and one for rural areas (hundred mile rural radius portion of any state, applied to all rural areas within the state with less than 1 mil people).

On top of that, if a business takes labor out of the US, they should pay a stiff penalty that practically offsets the loss of wages for those impacted for at least 2 years. And a continual tax penalty for selling in the US but not employing in the US (or employing more now employing less).

____________

This is the first post in this whole thread that actually makes a legitimate argument without resorting to fruitless moralism.

I support a minimum wage increase....but the arguments on both sides tend to be really weak. Also of note....there are numerous examples wherein people don't need a 'living wage' in seeking employment. I want my 16 year old daughter to have a job this summer. Noone is going to pay her a 'living wage' and she doesn't need a 'living wage'. Same goes for spousal partners who aren't breadwinners. There are millions of jobs for which people don't depend on their living expenses for and eliminating all those jobs would be very bad.

So the yearly salary would balance out if we achieved a 'liveable wage'

>There are millions of jobs
>for which people don't depend on their living expenses for and
>eliminating all those jobs would be very bad.

Again, that's assuming that paying more money would lead to a stark elimination of low level jobs which has been happening anyway without a livable wage.

But Ontario just announced that we will have a $15 minimum wage by 2018 and there is no exception for part-time workers. Are there exceptions in San Francisco?

To your last point...it's not sufficient to say 'lower paying jobs are being replaced by tech anyways'. It's the EXTENT of the erosion of those jobs.

The 'liveable wage' will balance out because secondary employed household members won't be working full time; the 32 grand a year they would be getting under a livable wage would only matter if they were working 40 hours, working 15 hours a week equals to around 12k a year..they are gonna have to return that Maybach, lol.

>To your last point...it's not sufficient to say 'lower paying
>jobs are being replaced by tech anyways'. It's the EXTENT of
>the erosion of those jobs.

I just disagree at the apocalyptic drop that big business is selling. In a world economy where every quarter MUST beat the next or the stock price gets a hit (with employees being such a big drain on margins) those changes are coming regardless. That's why I find the Mcdonald's story disingenuous for an example. This has been a long time coming and all that's happened is a 'rebranding' of this future.

So we get stories like this in forbes blaming those assholes asking for a reasonable pay bump adjusted for inflation:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2016/11/29/thanks-to-fight-for-15-minimum-wage-mcdonalds-unveils-job-replacing-self-service-kiosks-nationwide/#6f8ee1e34fbc

but ten years ago the excuse was it would bring, lolz, more jobs:

https://www.fastcompany.com/49359/toll-new-machine

but even politicians know the truth; this is coming and it is inevitable.

https://www.wired.com/2016/10/obama-aims-rewrite-social-contract-age-ai/

But even in supporting minimum wage hikes...we shouldn't be naïve that there WILL be costs. The stay-at-home mom who wants to teach Yoga three nights a week will lose her job. Teenagers like my kids will have a tough time finding work. The factory worker who teaches an instrument on weekends will lose the side gig. The stuff listed in the OP Etc. That stuff adds up.

In the same way....arguments like the one listed in the OP are blind to the BENEFITS of a wage increase and only list the costs. A few small businesses shutting down is likely out-weighed by the larger increased quality of life for the average non-skilled worker.

My thing....is that ANY argument that focuses solely on either the costs OR benefits of a minimum wage increase don't constitute a good argument. There are costs and benefits for EVERY economic policy decision. The apocalyptic conservative arguments are just as weak as the 'raising wages ALWAYS helps the poor' arguments. Raising wages does not always help the poor despite the good intentions that might motivate those raises. On the other hand....an increase in unemployment is also not ALWAYS bad for the poor either.

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TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

cause I think $15 across the board will do major damage in smaller markets.

and housing/pharma prices are insane in a lot of markets.

when I see $1500 for a studio in Uptown Charlotte??? Charlotte?? That's crazy.

but folks are paying that shit.

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TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

is too much for money for working in a fast food joint?

What in LA, San Fran, or NYC?

Y'all buy those labels, I was born supreme

but what about St. Louis? Columbus, OH?

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TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

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TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

and depending on the size of the family

you prolly shouldn't have a large family.

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TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

"poor people shouldn't have kids" now?

I mean, I get the point but that, in addition to being a little harsh, ignores that someones the sh!t goes the other way around.

Laid off...divorce....death..etc, etc.

i definitely think having a lot of kids and little money is a recipe for hard times.

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TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

Of course it is a recipe for hard times.


My point is that you are using a decent amount of right wing logic to fight this min wage thing.

"Maybe you shouldn't have a large family if you only make 30k"

My answer is, sometimes the 30k comes after the family.


Just came off as blaming people for some choice they made, rather than accepting that sh!t happens.

unfortunately when you have a large family you assume more risk.

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TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

but can't do a lot with that in the big cities.

Y'all buy those labels, I was born supreme

cause in Charlotte you can get a 2BR for $700 on the bus line.

https://www.forrent.com/apartment-community-profile/1000005841

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TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

not anything good anyway.

Y'all buy those labels, I was born supreme

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TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

Philly.