**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
32. "Hitler has been quoted" In response to Reply # 6
using "the christian white man" but it might not have been clear that the Nazis were church/bible pushers for the advancement of the christian religion
33. "Hitler has been quoted" In response to Reply # 6
using "the christian white man" but it might not have been clear that the Nazis were church/bible pushers for the advancement of the christian religion
GriftyMcgrift Member since May 22nd 2002 20414 posts
Sat Mar-25-17 06:03 PM
63. "but honestly, just by body count how does that compare to the" In response to Reply # 6
Roman Catholic Church?
I mean those countries were powerful for essentially the blink of an eye when compared to the reach of catholiscism and with it the other religous empires from back in the day
now the debate i guess is more of a if no religon would they have just used some other means of control
legsdiamond Member since May 05th 2011 79504 posts
Fri Mar-24-17 02:47 PM
38. "you really learned how to be nice from religion? " In response to Reply # 22
like.. unless your picnic basket is missing a few sammiches you have to know/feel that helping people and caring about others is the right thing to do.
we aren't born savages.
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
GriftyMcgrift Member since May 22nd 2002 20414 posts
Sat Mar-25-17 06:08 PM
65. "well when you literally rely on your neighbors to survive" In response to Reply # 22
the need to survive and the need to associate and work together with others requires that you dont treat them like shit to survive
this is IMO how we emerged from caves and shit and started forming communites
because we werent top of the food chain and our "culture" that we've developed is essentially a survival tool
religon DID NOT sprout from this
the first relgions (again just me blabbing here) IMO were specificlaly out of the need to explain the unexplainable then slowly evolved into a control mechanism
76. "if we're inherently selfish..." In response to Reply # 65 Mon Mar-27-17 08:09 AM by Trinity444
what you mentioned is still a learned behavior. When they stepped foot out the cave there had to be someone...something that made the people go, "now, when we get out here - this what we gotta do to survive"
legsdiamond Member since May 05th 2011 79504 posts
Mon Mar-27-17 08:25 AM
77. "I don't think we are inherently selfish... it's usually 1 person" In response to Reply # 76
who starts rounding up folk and convincing them to be a little more selfish...
next thing you know it's Lord Of the Flies
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
21. "I can't think of any evidence that supports people would act better" In response to Reply # 0
if there were no religion.
The fact that people war over religion does not prove they would not war but for religion.
At any rate large groups of people need "shared fictions" to form large communities. Shared fictions like nationalism, tribalism, racial tribalism, etc.
I can't think of a better "shared fiction" to bond large groups of people.
The thing is, you can literally have a religion that says "love everyone" and "turn the other cheek" and people will eventually hate and kill people in the name of that religion. Is that the religion or the people's fault?
********** "Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
24. "Agreed." In response to Reply # 21 Fri Mar-24-17 01:47 PM by denny
A different 'shared fiction' (Nice terminology) would fill the vacuum and I can think of a lot worse ones than Religion. Like you said...nationalism, racial tribalism etc.
There's a part of me that subscribes to a utopia like John Lennon's 'Imagine' because I'm an atheist. But the cynic in me thinks we would need to physically evolve for that to work. Our brains would have to change.
legsdiamond Member since May 05th 2011 79504 posts
Fri Mar-24-17 02:48 PM
39. "but we already know all things aren't good " In response to Reply # 26
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
52. "Can't speak for Shaun...." In response to Reply # 47
But I think the point is that individuals are more likely to behave immorally in the absence of group consensus. So 'their own devices' means their individual devices rather than a group device arrived at through consensus.
51. "Most people inherently know not to do the real heinous shit" In response to Reply # 44
But religion can provide a moral/spiritual foundation that can help people bear the inherent suffering of life with dignity.
If people just view the world as objects, people, and interactions between people and objects, it's easy to fall into a hedonistic lifestyle of "just tryna get mines, just tryna feel good" which leads of abuse of others and oneself.
------------------------------- If life is stupendous one cannot also demand that it should be easy. - Robert Musil
55. "Right." In response to Reply # 51 Fri Mar-24-17 07:15 PM by denny
The basic moral instincts come first. Religion comes second as a re-enforcement and philosophical justification and cultural foundation for those instincts. If this wasn't true...we wouldn't see so many overlapping commonalities between different religions.
29. "I'm sick of people using charlatans as examples of religion," In response to Reply # 0
whenever a crooked ass TV or storefront preacher does something foul, people are quick to blame that on the religion itself, not the guy who did it.
"that's why I don't give all my money to some preacher, blah blah blah..."
These are not men of faith. They're con men and hustlers.
I'm not even a religious person, but I think it's foul to condemn a person for believing in something bigger than themselves, and then finding the WORST possible example to point out how they're 'wrong'.
31. "The weird thing is how 'thiests' believe humans are innately evil" In response to Reply # 0
Where left to their own devices they would be killing each other and raping their own babies.
Id make the argument that the only way human society evolved was by 'working together' since as far as natural physical abilities we are weak as shit in comparison to many in the animal kingdom, but unfortunately so many religious people don't believe in evolution (which I find weird since in 12 years of Catholic schooling if I told a nun or a priest that shit they would punch me in the fucking mouth (And tell me why they punched me in the fucking mouth, curse words and all' LOL)
GriftyMcgrift Member since May 22nd 2002 20414 posts
Sat Mar-25-17 06:15 PM
66. "all this, we had to have a culture or we were getting SMOKED" In response to Reply # 31
by the bigger meaner scary things roaming the earth
i feel religon, especially as a means of "Act this way act that way"type of thing instead of the type of religon thats basically attempts to explain unexplainable things
came way after culture and communities started forming and with it the moral behavior needed to be succesful
The Wordsmith Member since Aug 13th 2002 17070 posts
Fri Mar-24-17 02:27 PM
36. "Nope. It's human nature to always want to...." In response to Reply # 0
...be more important than the next person, want more even if it isn't needed, to have some level of power over others. The poorest dude would brag about how he has better scraps to eat than the other poor dude down the street from him just to feel superior. The richest man could still want more streams of income. Some dictator could have absolute power over a country and he's not satisfied because he'd prefer the entire world to bow down before him.
I say all of this because even if religion was out of the picture, folks would still find a way to be selfish and try to take the resources of others, rule over others, and lift themselves to be better than others.
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
42. "Religion would be replaced by political ideology." In response to Reply # 0
That's actually already happened and continues to happen, especially in a lot of first world nations today.
Humans need to believe in some grand system of ideas concerning how the world works or should work. That could be Chango, the Lizard God, Marxism, anything.
67. "The world would be better without the need to control and subjugate" In response to Reply # 0 Sat Mar-25-17 06:24 PM by Boogie Stimuli
other people.
Marimba Ani does an immaculate job of breaking down the origin of this concept in the book Yurugu when she talks about the concept's formalization with Plato and the Object. Religion (systems of faith and worship) existed prior to Plato but weren't used as a tools of control and subjugation until the idea of separation within self and self from cosmos.
you rewind to when we were just starting to look at each other and work together
in a typical setting where people interact you kinda have three types
1. the leader 2. the follower 3. the rebel
now if you assume that by this time the average person has been looking to explain his surroundings and trying to exert some control over nature in order to survive/thrive the idea of things beyond us already kind of exist.
It may already influence their behavior (ritualistic behavior to exert control over nature)
then to me its feasable that people who naturally want to lead understands that control is necessary for the community to thrive
so religon fills that void
it rewards the followers for following it punishes the rebels for rebelling it gives leaders the ability to control
69. "A thorough examination of this would take pages..." In response to Reply # 68 Sat Mar-25-17 07:20 PM by Boogie Stimuli
so I really do recommend the book if you haven't read it... I say the following tho...
When you speak of "typical setting", it's important to examine what's typical and why it has become typical. Our very idea of nature and existence has very much been engineered.
When you speak of "exerting control over nature" it's important to examine why you even choose to speak of relating to nature in that way or why any of us think it's normal.
The "void" you're referring to exists only when people view ourselves as disconnected from the cosmos. Plato's view filled that void, because it was already the driving force of the culture of which he was a part.
Previous (more advanced) and surrounding cultures didn't think (or more accurately, exist) this way.
>in a typical setting where people interact you kinda have >three types > > >1. the leader >2. the follower >3. the rebel > > >now if you assume that by this time the average person has >been looking to explain his surroundings and trying to exert >some control over nature in order to survive/thrive the idea >of things beyond us already kind of exist. > >It may already influence their behavior (ritualistic behavior >to exert control over nature) > > >then to me its feasable that people who naturally want to lead >understands that control is necessary for the community to >thrive > >so religon fills that void > > >it rewards the followers for following >it punishes the rebels for rebelling >it gives leaders the ability to control > >
GriftyMcgrift Member since May 22nd 2002 20414 posts
Sat Mar-25-17 07:23 PM
70. "right but im referring to before anything close to an " In response to Reply # 69 Sat Mar-25-17 07:25 PM by GriftyMcgrift
advanced culture, before any "culture" at all
because there had to be something involving the human species before anything close to "culture" existed no? like culture didnt just blink into existence.
im talking literally as we as a species begin to operate in any kind of communal sense,
I don't know if I'm making any sense with my hack logic
anyways
any book you can recommend would be greatly appreciated!
*edit*
sorry i see you mentioned the book title in your OP, i'll definitely check it out
71. "i think it would be better with more religions" In response to Reply # 0
not a larger number of religious people, just more different religions being popular...instead of christianity, islam, and hinduism claiming 4 billion people
i'd also prefer it if no country was made up of more than 40-45% of one religion
Pastor Creflo Dollar offers ten compelling reasons why God hates religion--but loves for people to have real relationships with Christ.
Religion has broken churches, fueled wars, and driven people away from the true Gospel of Jesus. WHY I HATE RELIGION is a clarion call for people to ditch religion and embrace relationship as it explores the top ten reasons why God hates religion, such as:
Religion makes people try to earn their way into heaven--but Christ offers grace.
Religion says God uses calamity to teach his people--but Christ comforts us.
Religion blames problems on God--but Christ helps people learn from their mistakes.
Religion makes prayer a powerless "form of godliness"--but Christ hears every word.
WHY I HATE RELIGION offers an empowering understanding of true Christianity, one that transforms church into full, authentic, meaningful relationship with Jesus.
-------------------------
y'all knew I would come through for y'all....as always
79. "I really think people are ignorant of the role religion has played histo..." In response to Reply # 0 Mon Mar-27-17 08:57 AM by Lardlad95
They love to bring up the wars, but they forget how vital it was in the creation of a lot of art, philosophy, culture, and yes even science.
Are the myths problematic? Sure. Is dogma helpful to humanity? Of course not. But to boil it down to just a cause for war is ludicrous and relies on you projecting contemporary perspectives onto the past.
Atillah Moor Member since Sep 05th 2013 13825 posts
Tue Mar-28-17 11:09 AM
86. "Fascination is what drives progress in the arts and sciences " In response to Reply # 79
Religion has just hijacked mans fascination. Were it truly of the value it portrays humanity would be better off not the opposite or whatever is going on right now
Atillah Moor Member since Sep 05th 2013 13825 posts
Thu Mar-30-17 02:25 PM
91. "Islam, Judaism, and Chirstianity made profits on torture and slavery" In response to Reply # 79
AT THE SAME TIME. Think about that -- three religious belief systems that constantly war with each other managed to unite to brutalize black folks and were saying but the art work is dope?
Shaun Tha Don Member since Nov 19th 2005 18289 posts
Thu Mar-30-17 04:19 PM
95. "All with the help of Black kings and queens who didn't see much wrong" In response to Reply # 91
with brutalizing, enslaving and selling off Black people themselves for personal gain. And they weren't practicing any of the 3 religions you just mentioned.
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