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Subject: "Muslims are just as (even more probably) conservative as Conservatives" Previous topic | Next topic
FLUIDJ
Member since Sep 18th 2002
44616 posts
Fri Mar-03-17 08:46 AM

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"Muslims are just as (even more probably) conservative as Conservatives"
Fri Mar-03-17 08:47 AM by FLUIDJ

  

          

It's amusing that liberals are fighting hard for extreme conservative group and how conservatives are fighting against them....

Topic prompted by this:
https://twitter.com/i/moments/837350030595993600



"Get ready....for your blessing....."

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
Liberals are fighting for their right to be conservative
Mar 03rd 2017
1
Like their Marxist forefathers of last century.
Mar 03rd 2017
21
I saw that. Captures the difference perfectly.
Mar 03rd 2017
2
That's the point I was trying to make, I couldn't figure out the best
Mar 03rd 2017
3
I think you're being unfair to American conservatives here.
Mar 03rd 2017
10
      Not my experience at ALL. I'll concede that they aren't as VOCAL
Mar 03rd 2017
19
           I think we are agreeing.
Mar 04th 2017
25
liberals, in theory, are fighting for rights and conservatives are fight...
Mar 03rd 2017
4
So why do American conservatives hate Muslims?
Mar 03rd 2017
5
Zionism / Catholicism
Mar 03rd 2017
6
RE: So why do American conservatives hate Muslims?
Mar 03rd 2017
7
They don't bother to understand. Also, conservative republicans are
Mar 03rd 2017
8
Color and religion
Mar 03rd 2017
11
i think that conservatism is rooted in religion
Mar 03rd 2017
9
I'd agree but so is liberalism
Mar 03rd 2017
12
How do you see liberalism is rooted in Religion.
Mar 03rd 2017
13
Rooted may not be the right word for me to use in this case
Mar 03rd 2017
17
https://68.media.tumblr.com/2a537123bc83f509b4012ee8eedf4c90/tumblr_ogus...
Mar 03rd 2017
14
LOL
Mar 03rd 2017
16
Yo that's my man!
Mar 03rd 2017
18
i equate liberalism moreso w/ philosophy/science more than
Mar 03rd 2017
15
      cool, but aren't the roots of all those things in religion to start?
Mar 05th 2017
28
please explain how muslim countries haven't changed in 2000 years
Mar 04th 2017
24
      They still hate black people
Mar 05th 2017
29
           so does everybody else
Mar 05th 2017
32
                everybody else isn't here due to one groups need to abuse folks
Mar 05th 2017
33
                     i don't understand
Mar 05th 2017
34
                          http://www.hip-hopvibe.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Theceilingistheroo...
Mar 06th 2017
43
Muslims and (atheists) liberals share a mutual hatred for Christianity
Mar 03rd 2017
20
LOL
Mar 05th 2017
27
The average Muslim I meet is happier to let others cook
Mar 04th 2017
22
muslims are all over the spectrum just like any group of millions
Mar 04th 2017
23
this is a stupid summary of what's going on
Mar 05th 2017
26
wasn't really a summary, just an observation.
Mar 05th 2017
30
I didn't see a summary either, dude sounds really defensive
Mar 06th 2017
36
      you can admit you don't know what a summary is.
Mar 06th 2017
37
           I'm talking about what FLUIDJ wrote, not the picture & caption.
Mar 06th 2017
40
                it won't
Mar 06th 2017
41
                     It does. You made an assumption, and got defensive.
Mar 06th 2017
44
                          says the guy trying to change the meaning of words
Mar 06th 2017
45
bingo
Mar 06th 2017
35
it's obvious, right?
Mar 06th 2017
38
like we out here in #TeamLiberal and #TeamConservative jerseys
Mar 06th 2017
39
      It's mystifying that the immediate reaction isn't "oh, maybe
Mar 06th 2017
42
Islamic conservatism doesn't speak to white people's perception of reali...
Mar 05th 2017
31

legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
79605 posts
Fri Mar-03-17 08:55 AM

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1. "Liberals are fighting for their right to be conservative "
In response to Reply # 0


          

sharia law is the shit.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Shaun Tha Don
Member since Nov 19th 2005
18289 posts
Fri Mar-03-17 05:35 PM

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21. "Like their Marxist forefathers of last century."
In response to Reply # 1


          

Rest In Peace, Bad News Brown

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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Fri Mar-03-17 09:07 AM

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2. "I saw that. Captures the difference perfectly. "
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Mar-03-17 09:10 AM by Buddy_Gilapagos

  

          

That picture is horror to some. Beautiful to others.



I got this news app that force feeds me fox news headlines and the thing I notice is that Fox News thinks they are winning every time that they promote a headline of black person/Muslim/Other does some terrible thing. To me that proves the point of how racist they are because they think you can slander an entire group by the actions of a few.

BTW your post title is terrible. What folks should realize like that American Conservatives and the Muslim Extremist are different sides of the same coin. They are at war because they want to both achieve hegemony of their world view. They are not opposites. The opposite to them is the worldview live and let live.



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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FLUIDJ
Member since Sep 18th 2002
44616 posts
Fri Mar-03-17 09:31 AM

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3. "That's the point I was trying to make, I couldn't figure out the best"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

title though...

>That picture is horror to some. Beautiful to others.
>
>
>
>I got this news app that force feeds me fox news headlines and
>the thing I notice is that Fox News thinks they are winning
>every time that they promote a headline of black
>person/Muslim/Other does some terrible thing. To me that
>proves the point of how racist they are

>
>BTW your post title is terrible. What folks should realize
>like that American Conservatives and the Muslim Extremist are
>different sides of the same coin. They are at war because
>they want to both achieve hegemony of their world view. They
>are not opposites. The opposite to them is the worldview live
>and let live.
>
>
>
>**********
>"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then
>they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
>
>"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"


"Get ready....for your blessing....."

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
11281 posts
Fri Mar-03-17 11:03 AM

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10. "I think you're being unfair to American conservatives here."
In response to Reply # 2
Fri Mar-03-17 11:21 AM by denny

          

Muslim extremists are far more comparable to the KKK and Timothy Mcviegh. They want to kill infidels.

Moderate, everyday muslims are much more appropriate to align with everyday, American conservatives on social issues like gay rights, gender equality, religion in schools. The reality is that if you want to find Muslims to compare to liberal Americans....than you're mostly talking about secular Muslims.

  

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FLUIDJ
Member since Sep 18th 2002
44616 posts
Fri Mar-03-17 11:52 AM

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19. "Not my experience at ALL. I'll concede that they aren't as VOCAL"
In response to Reply # 10
Fri Mar-03-17 11:52 AM by FLUIDJ

  

          

like say a conservative bible belt republican....
But, you get to talking to a "common" muslim and that stuff comes bubbling up with the quickness.


>Muslim extremists are far more comparable to the KKK and
>Timothy Mcviegh. They want to kill infidels.
>
>Moderate, everyday muslims are much more appropriate to align
>with everyday, American conservatives on social issues like
>gay rights, gender equality, religion in schools. The reality
>is that if you want to find Muslims to compare to liberal
>Americans....than you're mostly talking about secular Muslims.
>


"Get ready....for your blessing....."

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
11281 posts
Sat Mar-04-17 07:26 PM

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25. "I think we are agreeing."
In response to Reply # 19


          

Either that or I'm misunderstanding.

  

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Government Name
Member since Dec 16th 2005
23190 posts
Fri Mar-03-17 09:38 AM

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4. "liberals, in theory, are fighting for rights and conservatives are fight..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

protect a (white dominant) way of life. when it comes to social issues, at least.

________
http://twitter.com/aehorton
http://instagram.com/aehorton

  

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kevlar skully
Member since Mar 13th 2007
6049 posts
Fri Mar-03-17 10:13 AM

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5. "So why do American conservatives hate Muslims?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

What does being fiscally conservative and wanting less government have to do with barring an entire religious group or having the state regulate women's bodies?

  

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Atillah Moor
Member since Sep 05th 2013
13825 posts
Fri Mar-03-17 10:23 AM

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6. "Zionism / Catholicism "
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

  

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double 0
Member since Nov 17th 2004
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Fri Mar-03-17 10:33 AM

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7. "RE: So why do American conservatives hate Muslims?"
In response to Reply # 5


          

George Lakoff will tell u:

https://georgelakoff.com/2016/11/22/a-minority-president-why-the-polls-failed-and-what-the-majority-can-do/#more-5389

The Strict Father and Conservative Values

In the strict father family, father knows best. He knows right from wrong and has the ultimate authority to make sure his children and his spouse do what he says, which is taken to be what is right. Many conservative spouses accept this worldview, uphold the father’s authority, and are strict in those realms of family life that they are in charge of.

When his children disobey, it is the strict father’s moral duty to punish them painfully enough so that, to avoid punishment, they will obey him (do what is right) and not just do what feels good. Through physical discipline they are supposed to become disciplined, internally strong, and able to prosper in the external world. What if they don’t prosper? That means they are not disciplined, and therefore cannot be moral, and so deserve their poverty.

This reasoning shows up in conservative politics in which the poor are seen as lazy and undeserving, and the rich as deserving their wealth. Responsibility is thus taken to be personal responsibility not social responsibility. What you become is only up to you; society has nothing to do with it. You are responsible for yourself, not for others, who are responsible for themselves.

The Moral Hierarchy
The strict father logic extends further. The basic idea is that authority is justified by morality (the strict father version), and that, in a world ordered by nature, there should be (and traditionally has been) a moral hierarchy in which those who have traditionally dominated should dominate.

The hierarchy is: God above Man, Man above Nature, The Disciplined (Strong) above the Undisciplined (Weak), The Rich above the Poor, Employers above Employees, Adults above Children, Western culture above other cultures, America above other countries. The hierarchy extends to: Men above women, Whites above Nonwhites, Christians above nonChristians, Straights above Gays.

On the whole, conservative policies flow from the strict father worldview and this hierarchy. Trump is an extreme case, though very much in line with conservative policies.

Strict Father Complexities
There are political policies that follow from strict father morality. As we discuss them, please bear in mind that many if not most conservatives are bi-conceptual, that is, that have a strict father major worldview and a nurturant minor worldview on some issues or other.

In-Group Nurturance: More importantly, it is common for conservatives to show in-group nurturance — care for members of some in-group. What counts as an in-group varies.

The minimal in-group is your family.
The in-group can be members of your church or your religion — and the church or religion may offer help to the needy members of the church or religion.
The in-group can be in the military, with military family getting housing, education, health care, and cheaper goods on the military base, and where platoon-members (“bands of brothers”) are taken care of and never left behind.
In small towns all over America where people are mostly conservative, the in-group can be community members and whoever lives in the town. The small-town nurturance for long-term neighbors can override differences in politics, race, ethnicity, gender, sexuality, and so on.
This means that in national or state politics, one may be a typical conservative, but those political views can be adjusted locally by moderation or in-group nurturance. Part of the conservative revolution of 1994 was the move by Newt Gingrich to rid the Republican party of moderates by running extreme conservatives against them in primaries.

It is also important to remember that moderate progressives are biconceptuals, that they have a minor conservative worldview on a certain issues, and that they can be made more conservative by repeated conservative language

Strict Father Political Policies
The most obvious strict father political policies are the following, group by group.

White Evangelical Christians:

Right-wing white evangelicals offer you a strict father God you are to fear — who can send you to burn in hell for eternity. Sinners get a second chance, to become “born again.” After that, sinners who don’t follow his commandments will burn in hell. Those who follow the commandments will be “saved.”

The moral hierarchy creates a white evangelical politics:

God above Man: Churches get major tax breaks, and seek public funding for religious schools.
Men Above Women: Men get to decide on reproduction. Against Planned Parenthood, abortion, and morning-after pills. For laws requiring spousal and parental notification prior to abortion.
Marriage between a man and a woman: no gay marriage.
Child-rearing should follow the strict father model.
Religious Christmas scenes in public places funded by public money.
Large crosses erected on public land.
The Ten Commandments in courtrooms.
Political candidates must proclaim their religion.
Laissez-Faire Free Marketeers:

Corporations and those who own and run them are metaphorical strict fathers. Corporations are “persons” who can engage in political lobbying, who seek to maximize their profits, set rules for their employees and can punish them in various ways, ultimately by firing them or laying them off.

Corporate conservatives want laissez-faire free markets, where wealthy people and corporations set market rules in their favor with minimal government regulation and enforcement. They see taxation not as investment in publicly provided resources for all citizens, but as government taking their earnings (their private property) and giving the money through government programs to those who don’t deserve it. This is the source of establishment Republicans’ anti-tax and shrinking government views. This version of conservatism is quite happy with outsourcing to increase profits by sending manufacturing and many services abroad where labor is cheap, with the consequence that well-paying jobs leave America and wages are driven down here. They profit from many cheap imports important for business profits, such as steel, building materials, electronic parts, etc.

They also want to privatize public resources as much as possible: eliminate public schools, publicly financed health insurance, drill and mine on public lands, build private highways, and so on.

The White Working Class:

Many members of the white working class have strict father morality, even those in unions. Many have their strict father views limited to their home life, but many have them as a major worldview. As conservatives, they believe in individual responsibility not government “handouts;” they may resent union dues and prefer “right to work” laws; and they may implicitly accept the moral hierarchy and believe they are superior to nonwhites, Latinos, nonChristians, and gays and should be in a higher financial and social position. Conservative women may accept their position as inferior to their men, but still see themselves above the rest of the hierarchy. The white working class has been hit hard by income inequality, globalization and outsourcing, computerization, the decline of coal mining, low-wage chain stores driving out small business, and if older, ageism. They are largely uneducated and see themselves as looked down on by the educated “elite” who tell them that everyone should go to college to merit today’s jobs. They also resent “political correctness,” which directs resources to those who need them even more, but are lower on the conservative moral hierarchy. They want the respect of being on the right side of politics, of having their moral views— and hence their deepest identity — confirmed.

Political Correctness

Nurturant parent morality puts a premium on helping those in the family who need it the most: infants, sick or injured children, and so on.

In liberal politics, those lower on the conservative moral hierarchy are seen to have been victimized by those who are more powerful. The result is a reverse moral hierarchy, in which the less powerful are more deserving of assistance than the more powerful: the poor more than the non-poor, non-white more than white, women more than men, immigrants more than residents, and so on.

The white working class calls this view “political correctness.” It leaves out poor whites, especially in nonurban areas, who have had to face the problems of a culture that, as we have just seen, has been devastated by corporate greed (income inequality, globalization and outsourcing, computerization, and low-wage chain stores driving out small business) and factors like the decline of coal mining.

All three of these groups — evangelicals, corporatists, and the white working class correctly saw the Supreme Court issue as central to upholding their values across the board, on all issues.

The Main Issue Is Identity

For each type of conservative, the main issue is one’s identity, which is defined by strict father values. One can have a religious version, a business version, or a working class resentment version, but in each case self-identity is the issue. That is why those who voted for Trump didn’t care if he constantly lied, or if he treated women outrageously, or if he was ignorant of foreign policy. What mattered was the voter’s moral identity, the voter’s sense of right and wrong, the voter’s self-respect as a conservative.

Trump and those in his campaign understood this. Those in the Democratic party, the media, and pollsters did not.

Double 0
DJ/Producer/Artist
Producer in Kidz In The Hall
-------------------------------------------
twitter: @godouble0
IG: @godouble0
www.thinklikearapper.com

  

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FLUIDJ
Member since Sep 18th 2002
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Fri Mar-03-17 10:34 AM

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8. "They don't bother to understand. Also, conservative republicans are"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

extends way beyond fiscal. They DEEPLY entrenched in Christian moral values and belief just as much as devout Muslims are. They have more in common than they realize.

>What does being fiscally conservative and wanting less
>government have to do with barring an entire religious group
>or having the state regulate women's bodies?

You do realize that the muslim counterparts are pushing for the exact same thing but on a much larger scale right? re; barring entire religious groups and controlling women's bodies....

"Get ready....for your blessing....."

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
79605 posts
Fri Mar-03-17 11:15 AM

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11. "Color and religion"
In response to Reply # 5


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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ambient1
Member since May 23rd 2007
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Fri Mar-03-17 10:37 AM

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9. "i think that conservatism is rooted in religion"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

religion = order

order = control



the one part of the world that didn't quite give up it's 'control' or change is.......well....our muslim folks

and that 'beef' been goin on since Jesus was in diapers


aka....of course they are just as conservative

=======================================
Coolin...

  

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Atillah Moor
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Fri Mar-03-17 11:37 AM

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12. "I'd agree but so is liberalism"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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Fri Mar-03-17 11:41 AM

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13. "How do you see liberalism is rooted in Religion. "
In response to Reply # 12


  

          


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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Atillah Moor
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Fri Mar-03-17 11:51 AM

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17. "Rooted may not be the right word for me to use in this case "
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

It seems to me like conservativism is similar to religion in the form of monotheism and liberalism is similar to religion in the form of polytheism.

To me they seem rooted in the principles of either of those two. In the very least similar in how liberals apoear to accommodate those with beliefs in other gods conservatives appear to not.

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Fri Mar-03-17 11:43 AM

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14. "https://68.media.tumblr.com/2a537123bc83f509b4012ee8eedf4c90/tumblr_ogus..."
In response to Reply # 12


          

https://68.media.tumblr.com/2a537123bc83f509b4012ee8eedf4c90/tumblr_ogus8hRvwr1udh5n8o1_500.gif

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Lurkmode
Member since May 07th 2011
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Fri Mar-03-17 11:49 AM

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16. "LOL"
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

You a fool

---------------------------
Signature

  

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Atillah Moor
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Fri Mar-03-17 11:51 AM

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18. "Yo that's my man!"
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

  

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ambient1
Member since May 23rd 2007
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Fri Mar-03-17 11:45 AM

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15. "i equate liberalism moreso w/ philosophy/science more than"
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

religion

both are 'opt-in' ideals but that's where I kinda end the comparison
not sure how liberalism is tied to religion but curious to hear why

=======================================
Coolin...

  

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Atillah Moor
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Sun Mar-05-17 08:43 AM

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28. "cool, but aren't the roots of all those things in religion to start?"
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

Historically speaking all of those have been interconnected

  

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rob
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Sat Mar-04-17 03:04 PM

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24. "please explain how muslim countries haven't changed in 2000 years"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

  

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Atillah Moor
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29. "They still hate black people"
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

  

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rob
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Sun Mar-05-17 01:47 PM

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32. "so does everybody else "
In response to Reply # 29


  

          

  

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Atillah Moor
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33. "everybody else isn't here due to one groups need to abuse folks"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

in perpetuity

  

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rob
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34. "i don't understand"
In response to Reply # 33


  

          

  

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Atillah Moor
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Mon Mar-06-17 03:24 PM

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43. "http://www.hip-hopvibe.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Theceilingistheroo..."
In response to Reply # 34


  

          

http://www.hip-hopvibe.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Theceilingistheroofig.jpg

  

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Shaun Tha Don
Member since Nov 19th 2005
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Fri Mar-03-17 05:30 PM

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20. "Muslims and (atheists) liberals share a mutual hatred for Christianity"
In response to Reply # 0


          

and Christians.

Rest In Peace, Bad News Brown

  

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Rjcc
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27. "LOL"
In response to Reply # 20


          


www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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Ted Gee Seal
Member since Apr 18th 2007
10091 posts
Sat Mar-04-17 02:37 PM

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22. "The average Muslim I meet is happier to let others cook"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

They have their own standards for themselves but they aren't trying to force it down my throat.

I don't see them on street corners accosting people.

We have a cross section of immigrants on our street and the most chill family that follows the rules of our right of way is the Muslim family.

Just IMO though.

  

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rob
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Sat Mar-04-17 03:03 PM

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23. "muslims are all over the spectrum just like any group of millions"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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Rjcc
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26. "this is a stupid summary of what's going on"
In response to Reply # 0


          

and an example of why anyone who walks around saying "liberal" and "conservative" is already being misdirected.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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FLUIDJ
Member since Sep 18th 2002
44616 posts
Sun Mar-05-17 08:47 AM

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30. "wasn't really a summary, just an observation. "
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

.

  

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micMajestic
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Mon Mar-06-17 12:10 PM

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36. "I didn't see a summary either, dude sounds really defensive"
In response to Reply # 30


          

If a comedian made the same observation, would he get all pissy about it?

  

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Rjcc
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37. "you can admit you don't know what a summary is."
In response to Reply # 36


          

there's nothing for me to be defensive about.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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micMajestic
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Mon Mar-06-17 01:54 PM

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40. "I'm talking about what FLUIDJ wrote, not the picture & caption."
In response to Reply # 37


          

>there's nothing for me to be defensive about.
>

What he wrote wasn't a summary, and I'm pretty sure the dictionary will back me up on that.

  

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Rjcc
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Mon Mar-06-17 02:57 PM

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41. "it won't"
In response to Reply # 40


          


www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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micMajestic
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Mon Mar-06-17 03:27 PM

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44. "It does. You made an assumption, and got defensive. "
In response to Reply # 41


          

Started swinging at something that wasn't there.

  

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Rjcc
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45. "says the guy trying to change the meaning of words"
In response to Reply # 44


          


www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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Sofian_Hadi
Member since Jan 03rd 2003
5628 posts
Mon Mar-06-17 01:34 AM

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35. "bingo"
In response to Reply # 26


          

---------------------------------------

"The world is before you and you need not take it or leave it as it was when you came in." - James Baldwin

  

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Rjcc
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38. "it's obvious, right?"
In response to Reply # 35


          


www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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SoWhat
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Mon Mar-06-17 01:31 PM

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39. "like we out here in #TeamLiberal and #TeamConservative jerseys"
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

and have been 'tricked' into throwing interceptions to #TC tight ends by standing up w/them as they're under attack.

fuck you.

  

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Rjcc
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42. "It's mystifying that the immediate reaction isn't "oh, maybe"
In response to Reply # 39


          

the problem is that my labels don't make sense"


www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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Garhart Poppwell
Member since Nov 28th 2008
18115 posts
Sun Mar-05-17 01:00 PM

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31. "Islamic conservatism doesn't speak to white people's perception of reali..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

so any similarities between the two are rendered different by default.

__________________________________________
CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!!
------------------------------------
Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

  

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