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Case_One
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Tue Feb-21-17 11:41 AM

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"Science Proves the Healing Power of Prayer (Swipe)"


          

Science Proves the Healing Power of Prayer
Tuesday, 31 Mar 2015 05:19 PM

http://www.newsmax.com/Health/Headline/prayer-health-faith-medicine/2015/03/31/id/635623/

For the devout, there never has been any question that prayer has the power to heal.

Now, more and more medical research from leading hospitals and universities across the U.S. has shown conclusively a belief in God really IS good for you, making you healthier and happier, and helping you live longer.

“Studies have shown prayer can prevent people from getting sick — and when they do get sick, prayer can help them get better faster,” Duke University’s Harold G. Koenig, M.D., tells Newsmax Health.

An exhaustive analysis of more than 1,500 reputable medical studies “indicates people who are more religious and pray more have better mental and physical health,” Dr. Koenig says.

“And out of 125 studies that looked at the link between health and regular worship, 85 showed regular churchgoers live longer.

“There’s a lot of evidence out there.”

Dr. Koenig — director of Duke’s Center for Spirituality, Theology and Health and the author of several authoritative books on faith and healing — says a striking study published in the Southern Medical Journal demonstrated that prayer has a remarkable effect on patients with hearing and visual deficiencies.

After prayer sessions, “They showed significant improvements based on audio and visual tests,” Dr. Koenig said.

He added: “The benefits of devout religious practice, particularly involvement in a faith community and religious commitment, are that people cope better. In general, they cope with stress better, they experience greater well-being because they have more hope, they're more optimistic, they experience less depression, less anxiety, and they commit suicide less often.

“They have stronger immune systems, lower blood pressure, and probably better cardiovascular functioning.”

The proof of the power of prayer is overwhelming, says researcher and writer Tom Knox, a one-time atheist who became a regular worshipper after doing in-depth study of the medical benefits of faith.

“What I discovered astonished me,” admits Knox. “Over the past 30 years a growing and largely unnoticed body of scientific work shows religious belief is medically, socially, and psychologically beneficial.”

Study after study backs up the benefits of having faith, especially in prolonging life.
In 2006, population researchers at the University of Texas discovered that the more often you go to church, the longer you live.

“Religious attendance is associated with adult mortality in a graded fashion,” says Knox.

“There is a seven-year difference in life expectancy between those who never attend church and those who attend weekly.”

The American Journal of Public Health studied nearly 2,000 older Californians for five years and found that those who attended religious services were 36 percent less likely to die during that period than those who didn’t.

A study of nearly 4,000 older adults for the U.S. Journal of Gerontology revealed that atheists had a significantly increased chance of dying over a six-year period than the faithful.

Crucially, religious people lived longer than atheists even if they didn’t go regularly to a place of worship.

The American Society of Hypertension established in 2006 that church-goers have lower blood pressure than non-believers.

Scientists have also revealed believers recover from breast cancer quicker than non-believers, have better outcomes from coronary disease and rheumatoid arthritis, and are less likely to have children with meningitis.

Research at San Francisco General Hospital looked at the effect of prayer on 393 cardiac patients. Half were prayed for by strangers who had only the patients’ names. Those patients had fewer complications, fewer cases of pneumonia, and needed less drug treatment.

They also got better quicker and left the hospital earlier.

Concluded Knox: “Atheists can sneer at faith all they like, but they can’t assume science is on their side.”


© 2017 NewsmaxHealth. All rights reserved.

.

Wake up, Pray! Go to work, Pray! Go home, Pray! Love, Pray! Eat, Pray! Live, Pray!

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
The benefits of a focused positive outlook have been known
Feb 21st 2017
1
It's more than that playa. Don't hate.
Feb 21st 2017
2
      It's not hate, it's science. Prayer is essentially meditation.
Feb 21st 2017
3
           Actually Prayer is more than meditation. That's what my book is about
Feb 21st 2017
5
                The word Prayer is translated from the Hebrew Avod to serve
Feb 21st 2017
13
                I know that you tired the internet, but you're using it wrong.
Feb 21st 2017
16
                     If you want to verify what I typed you have the same internet I do
Feb 21st 2017
19
                     n/m
Feb 21st 2017
20
                     the service of a righteous man is powerful and effective
Feb 21st 2017
24
                actually meditation is more than prayer
Feb 21st 2017
29
                     Let me ask you this. Have you ever seen mediation heal a baby?
Feb 21st 2017
31
                     instantly deliver someone from drug addiction huh
Feb 21st 2017
40
                     Just say that you don't understand.
Feb 21st 2017
49
                     are you "scientifically" sure about that?
Feb 23rd 2017
69
                          Scientifically sure about what?
Feb 23rd 2017
74
                               RE: Scientifically sure about what?
Feb 23rd 2017
76
                                    It's all about Faith and watching God Move.
Feb 27th 2017
100
                     listen to this man
Feb 21st 2017
39
Nat Geo's December 2016 cover story was a very good look at this
Feb 21st 2017
4
The Human Body is God's Masterpiece
Feb 21st 2017
6
^^^ Much better article, b/c it's written without an agenda.
Feb 21st 2017
7
What? Agenda.. LOL
Feb 21st 2017
11
      Yes. Agenda.
Feb 21st 2017
14
meditation and float tanks have been clutch for me over the last year
Feb 21st 2017
9
Oh God.
Feb 21st 2017
8
Why do you hate Facts and Scientific research?
Feb 21st 2017
12
it's positive thinking that's healing, not prayer itself.
Feb 21st 2017
10
They don't hear you. Lotta money in selling training wheels
Feb 21st 2017
15
What's the difference?
Feb 21st 2017
17
      Do u think Case means positive thinking when he says prayer?
Feb 21st 2017
18
           I literally just asked "what's the difference"
Feb 21st 2017
21
                because the article has a pro-religious stance implying...
Feb 21st 2017
22
                What's the difference!!!
Feb 21st 2017
25
                     i just said what the difference was.
Feb 21st 2017
26
                          Way to be condescending as you avoid the real question.
Feb 21st 2017
28
                               nevermind man.
Feb 21st 2017
30
                                    LMAO nice, rather than answer the question it's "never mind".
Feb 21st 2017
33
                                         dude, you really have a persecution complex.
Feb 21st 2017
41
                                              Lmao. Don't play dumb. You also never answered the question.
Feb 21st 2017
47
                                                   fine. believe what you want.
Feb 22nd 2017
50
                Science might prove that talking to a shoe has health benefits
Feb 21st 2017
23
                Why use an analogy of the information in the subject is sufficient
Feb 21st 2017
27
                I'll definitely reply to this later... don't have time right now. n/m
Feb 21st 2017
46
                So you asked PROMO that question, but since you've implied that
Feb 22nd 2017
51
                     Meanwhile you responded to the question I asked Promo.
Feb 22nd 2017
54
                          B/c you responded to my question with "I literally just asked..."
Feb 22nd 2017
57
                               Yes, that was the answer.
Feb 22nd 2017
58
                                    You literally just proved my point and pretended you didn't...
Feb 22nd 2017
60
                                         Boogie, I just want you to know * I * appreciate you.
Feb 22nd 2017
61
                                         Lol *salutes*
Feb 22nd 2017
62
                                         .....and that's still immaterial to my very simple question
Feb 22nd 2017
63
                                              All of that has been thoroughly addressed in my previous replies.
Feb 22nd 2017
64
                                                   Nah. But it's all good.
Feb 22nd 2017
65
oh, you need scientific evidence now?
Feb 21st 2017
32
I missed the part where he said he "needed" scientific evidence
Feb 21st 2017
34
      if science "proves" it, then it wasn't already established.
Feb 21st 2017
35
           *reads alias name, moves on*
Feb 21st 2017
36
           *shrug*
Feb 21st 2017
42
           faith is the evidence of things NOT SEEN. Or proved.
Feb 21st 2017
37
                gotta choose
Feb 21st 2017
43
                Not even. Science can confirm the evidence of one's faith in God's abili...
Feb 23rd 2017
75
                     no.
Feb 23rd 2017
77
                     that didn't happen. you're making shit up.
Feb 25th 2017
87
                     I'm not making anything up. You're just mad that it happened.
Feb 27th 2017
98
                     When reading the source texts virgin births are not a thing
Feb 26th 2017
94
                          Well this example was not an insemination example.
Feb 27th 2017
99
                               I see what you're saying but regardless isn't the power inside
Feb 27th 2017
102
If prayer "works" in this way
Feb 21st 2017
38
RE: If prayer "works" in this way
Feb 21st 2017
48
NewsmaxHealth?? GTFOH.
Feb 21st 2017
44
So I take it that you didn't read the article and the citations.
Feb 21st 2017
45
So which God of the Bible gets our prayers? There are at least 3
Feb 22nd 2017
52
There's only one Lord God in the Bible.
Feb 23rd 2017
73
      I already put up the facts behind that, but who is the 'Us' in let us?
Feb 23rd 2017
82
So prayer is on party with placebos
Feb 22nd 2017
53
Yup.
Feb 22nd 2017
55
RE: So prayer is on party with placebos. Not Really
Feb 22nd 2017
56
      focused meditation and focused prayer have the same end result
Feb 22nd 2017
59
           You're limiting yourself with that thinking. Prayer is way deeper than t...
Feb 23rd 2017
70
                How is my thinking limited by opening prayer up to scientific principles...
Feb 23rd 2017
80
                     It all Belongs to God.
Feb 23rd 2017
83
                          All things belong to the Creator of All Things
Feb 24th 2017
84
                               GOD. Thanks for Supporting.
Feb 26th 2017
90
                                    Never denied it. But what we call 'god' are other created beings
Feb 26th 2017
92
                                         The Lord God is not a What. He is who He is.
Feb 27th 2017
108
                                              Regardless all religions are worshiping the creation not creator
Feb 28th 2017
111
Newsmax....smh
Feb 22nd 2017
66
So the facts in the Newsmax article are not correct?
Feb 23rd 2017
71
      You reading Newsmax is not correct
Feb 25th 2017
88
           So you don't have an issue with the article in Newsmax?
Feb 26th 2017
89
Yeah, but only if you copy and paste it in your status
Feb 22nd 2017
67
i like how we are picking and choosing when to use science
Feb 22nd 2017
68
Meaning what? I've never had a problem with Science.
Feb 23rd 2017
72
      except when it's proving evolution...
Feb 25th 2017
86
           Such as?
Feb 27th 2017
107
                every time there's a discussion on evolution...
Feb 28th 2017
115
                     What about the fact that the theory belongs to a fervent racist
Mar 01st 2017
130
William James 'The Will to Believe'
Feb 23rd 2017
78
http://deanradin.com/evidence/Astin2000.pdf
Feb 23rd 2017
79
Interesting paper
Feb 23rd 2017
81
LOL uh no
Feb 24th 2017
85
UOH OH... The Response to STEP. What Do Prayer Studies Prove?
Feb 26th 2017
91
      strong sources. powerful.
Feb 27th 2017
103
this is literally how your brain functions
Feb 26th 2017
93
Do you have a spiritual life?
Feb 26th 2017
95
I dont answer stupid questions
Feb 26th 2017
96
      You think that's a Stupid question. .. WOW
Feb 27th 2017
101
           in relation to this topic, it sure is.
Feb 27th 2017
105
           Nope. Sorry. That's never a stupid question.
Feb 27th 2017
106
           a spiritual life has nothing to do with science. you sound dumb
Feb 28th 2017
110
                I'm just asking you a personal question. Why is that hard for you?
Feb 28th 2017
113
                     Yes I have a spiritual life. how is that related to this post?
Feb 28th 2017
118
yeah. it's not even fun to "debate" him.
Feb 27th 2017
104
      Why do you need to debate?
Feb 27th 2017
109
           because you talk shit.
Feb 28th 2017
112
                Where are you located?
Feb 28th 2017
114
one from the Straight Dope vaults (2000)
Feb 27th 2017
97
And here's the POINT.
Feb 28th 2017
116
      So how do you explain healing for babies when people pray?
Feb 28th 2017
117
           *sigh*
Feb 28th 2017
119
                Just say that you don't understand.
Feb 28th 2017
120
                     Why does this bother some of y'all.
Feb 28th 2017
121
                          you confuse causation
Feb 28th 2017
122
                               nope. someone else must have prayed for him.
Feb 28th 2017
123
                                    Like I said, just say you don't understand.
Feb 28th 2017
124
                                    you're right. help me understand.
Feb 28th 2017
126
                                    unblessed
Feb 28th 2017
128
Again, Tell Prayer (a Conversation with God) Bothers You?
Feb 28th 2017
125
faith is a concept and a personal truth
Feb 28th 2017
127
there's a direct line from here to child abuse and murder
Mar 01st 2017
129

Atillah Moor
Member since Sep 05th 2013
13825 posts
Tue Feb-21-17 11:44 AM

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1. "The benefits of a focused positive outlook have been known "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Science is late to this one

  

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Case_One
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Tue Feb-21-17 12:17 PM

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2. "It's more than that playa. Don't hate."
In response to Reply # 1


          


.
.

Wake up, Pray! Go to work, Pray! Go home, Pray! Love, Pray! Eat, Pray! Live, Pray!

  

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bignick
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Tue Feb-21-17 12:20 PM

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3. "It's not hate, it's science. Prayer is essentially meditation. "
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

  

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Case_One
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Tue Feb-21-17 12:49 PM

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5. "Actually Prayer is more than meditation. That's what my book is about "
In response to Reply # 3


          

prayer and the power of God's purpose for it. Prayer is about an authentic conversation and relationship with God, its not about meditation. Prayer is about talking to God and building a deeper relationship with him, moving into his will, and accomplishing his will in ones life and the earth.


.
.

Wake up, Pray! Go to work, Pray! Go home, Pray! Love, Pray! Eat, Pray! Live, Pray!

  

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Atillah Moor
Member since Sep 05th 2013
13825 posts
Tue Feb-21-17 01:59 PM

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13. "The word Prayer is translated from the Hebrew Avod to serve "
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

Which is in full alignment with the earliest Sumerian biblical writings and recovered artifacts which illustrate that the ancient peoples believed that they were physically serving their gods.

The book of Job is a perfect example. Job served his god he did not pray to him. Job also suffered because of the gods.

  

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Case_One
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Tue Feb-21-17 02:22 PM

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16. "I know that you tired the internet, but you're using it wrong. "
In response to Reply # 13


          

So, before we go any further, where did you heist this information from?

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.

Wake up, Pray! Go to work, Pray! Go home, Pray! Love, Pray! Eat, Pray! Live, Pray!

  

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Atillah Moor
Member since Sep 05th 2013
13825 posts
Tue Feb-21-17 02:53 PM

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19. "If you want to verify what I typed you have the same internet I do"
In response to Reply # 16
Tue Feb-21-17 03:12 PM by Atillah Moor

  

          

The messenger isn't getting shot this time, but I learned about the meaning of avod from a podcast about the Sumerians. In particular the statues/figurines that have been excavated.

Maybe search sumerian statues clasped hands meaning or something like that.

Job is an antidiluvian account as evidenced by the fact that the god he serves appears to him more or less physically obscured maybe but in the same space.

Replace "God" with Enki and Satan with Enlil remembering that the Enlil character (as the Sumerians tell it) is the expeller of the first of mankind from the garden and the one who wishes man to be wiped out by the flood as well as having objected to mans creation in the first place.

When the sons of God said "Let us make man" Enlil said "Let's not and say that we did"

That's the source from the Sumerian which predates all biblical translations

  

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Atillah Moor
Member since Sep 05th 2013
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Tue Feb-21-17 02:58 PM

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20. "n/m"
In response to Reply # 19
Tue Feb-21-17 03:00 PM by Atillah Moor

  

          

.

  

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Atillah Moor
Member since Sep 05th 2013
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Tue Feb-21-17 03:25 PM

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24. "the service of a righteous man is powerful and effective "
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

makes more sense that way don't you think?

  

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J_Stew
Member since Jul 06th 2002
22363 posts
Tue Feb-21-17 04:57 PM

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29. "actually meditation is more than prayer"
In response to Reply # 5


          

meditation, deep contemplation, and letting go of the physical reality around you while still being alert and focused is the closest to "God" that a human can get, ATTROSSMF. (according to the research of some smart motherfuckers)

With what SCIENCE is discovering about the quantum realm, though, not much would surprise me.

  

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Case_One
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Tue Feb-21-17 05:13 PM

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31. "Let me ask you this. Have you ever seen mediation heal a baby? "
In response to Reply # 29


          

Or break someone out of a Coma? Or instantly deliver someone from drug addition. I have. Have you seen someone else's meditation heal a broken body right before your eyes? I have. And I knew the person. This was not show or Hoax.

Don't get me wrong, I even meditate, but it's a difference between powerful life shifting and healing prayer and meditating.


.
.

Wake up, Pray! Go to work, Pray! Go home, Pray! Love, Pray! Eat, Pray! Live, Pray!

  

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Madvillain 626
Member since Apr 25th 2006
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Tue Feb-21-17 06:55 PM

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40. "instantly deliver someone from drug addiction huh"
In response to Reply # 31


  

          

you talkin about prayer or DMT ?

-------------------------------
If life is stupendous one cannot also demand that it should be easy. - Robert Musil

  

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Case_One
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Tue Feb-21-17 11:29 PM

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49. "Just say that you don't understand. "
In response to Reply # 40


          

Seek Wisdom and you will gain.


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.

Wake up, Pray! Go to work, Pray! Go home, Pray! Love, Pray! Eat, Pray! Live, Pray!

  

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Mr. ManC
Member since Jan 26th 2009
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Thu Feb-23-17 07:26 AM

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69. "are you "scientifically" sure about that?"
In response to Reply # 31


  

          

I know plenty of people who 1. Tried to pray for God to intervene in such a way who didn't get those results; and 2) have a bitterness towards God and/or prayer because when they had a sick child and did everything "right" it didn't save them from the grief. It is as if prayer works, until it doesn't, but then that's God's plan?

You may be preaching the wrong gospel.

________________________________________________
R.I.P. Soulgyal <3
SUPA NERD LLC.
Knowledge Meets Nature
Musica Negra
#13irteen

  

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Case_One
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Thu Feb-23-17 07:54 AM

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74. "Scientifically sure about what?"
In response to Reply # 69


          

>I know plenty of people who 1. Tried to pray for God to
>intervene in such a way who didn't get those results; and 2)
>have a bitterness towards God and/or prayer because when they
>had a sick child and did everything "right" it didn't save
>them from the grief. It is as if prayer works, until it
>doesn't, but then that's God's plan?
>

1 . So did you pray or did your try to pray? I'm unclear on what you're saying. Also, what is your relationship like with God? Is ti full and healthy or shaky and unsure?

2. God can handle your bitterness and He's not limited how he see you because if it, but is your bitterness limiting how you see God?

Prayer is not a God Will Changer, it is used to allow the Will of God to be revealed and manifested. I don't know the pain of losing a child, but I believe God's will is always perfect and I also believe that not everything that happens is of God's will.

>You may be preaching the wrong gospel.

^^ What?


.
.

Wake up, Pray! Go to work, Pray! Go home, Pray! Love, Pray! Eat, Pray! Live, Pray!

  

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Mr. ManC
Member since Jan 26th 2009
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Thu Feb-23-17 08:26 AM

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76. "RE: Scientifically sure about what?"
In response to Reply # 74


  

          

"Scientifically" as in "I prayed for a child to get well, and they were well, therefore prayer was the device". To conclude that is shaky because there are too many instances where that same prayer through devout believer did not end that way. If there is a righteous explanation, and it is more about being able to reconcile with God's will, then prayer isn't about being delivered from drug abuse, waking from a coma, or healing a sick child. To focus on that is to cheapen it as a device. When someone is suffering and relies on God and prayer, and then it "doesn't work" they become resentful. And again, if the lesson in that scenario is to bend to God's will, then it is less about prayer being a religious multitool and more about it being a means of reconciling your human existence (much akin to what people have pointed out with meditation, to which you explained the difference being that scientifically prayer has healed, and cured, and awaken).

>1 . So did you pray or did your try >to pray? I'm unclear on what >you're saying. Also, what is your >relationship like with God? Is ti >full and healthy or shaky and >unsure? 

Well I wasn't personally speaking from experience. My relationship with God, or my spiritual existence is fairly sound at the moment, but I feel as though the Christian church had rejected me and my views long ago (though I find a more forgiving, welcoming church experience in NYC). To the first question, I tried to pray, and then prayed with everything. And it "didn't work" for my ends, but I did get peace through reconciling my existence on Earth. Now prayer is a language of being mindful of others, personally.

>2. God can handle your bitterness >and He's not limited how he see >you because if it, but is your >bitterness limiting how you see >God?

I am not bitter at all. Much of my clarity came when I stopped trying to use prayer to be a "fix it Jesus" spell. Which is why I think it is dangerous that you push back at meditation with "but prayer does XYZ". As you said, no it doesn't, it is not a God's will changer, unless he lottery style randomly decides to answer some directly, and indirectly not to others. The bitterness isn't people's relationship with God, but rather their relationship to churches that sell them on that very concept but then don't have answers when life hits them.

>Prayer is not a God Will Changer, >it is used to allow the Will of God >to be revealed and manifested. I >don't know the pain of losing a >child, but I believe God's will is >always perfect and I also believe >that not everything that happens >is of God's will. 

I don't know that is the case with things happening that aren't God's will. Even if I conceded that point on a macro level, why would his will not include at least exclusively his devout followers. But furthermore, if that is the case, it further rejects the ascertion of God intervene on behalf of prayer. The examples you provided don't scientifically substantiate anything, unfortunately. I'll be happy to link you to some articles though of homosexuality existing in the animal kingdom, if you're in a science kick now.

>You may be preaching the wrong gospel.

^^ What?

The Gospel that you are already saved. Do onto others, love you neighbor as yourself, and all the other Good news that helps one reconcile with their human existance, and allows all of us to live with and lean on each other.

*shrugs* imho

________________________________________________
R.I.P. Soulgyal <3
SUPA NERD LLC.
Knowledge Meets Nature
Musica Negra
#13irteen

  

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Case_One
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Mon Feb-27-17 12:31 PM

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100. "It's all about Faith and watching God Move. "
In response to Reply # 76


          



.
.

Wake up, Pray! Go to work, Pray! Go home, Pray! Love, Pray! Eat, Pray! Live, Pray!

  

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Madvillain 626
Member since Apr 25th 2006
10018 posts
Tue Feb-21-17 06:54 PM

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39. "listen to this man "
In response to Reply # 29


  

          

-------------------------------
If life is stupendous one cannot also demand that it should be easy. - Robert Musil

  

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lonesome_d
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30443 posts
Tue Feb-21-17 12:37 PM

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4. "Nat Geo's December 2016 cover story was a very good look at this"
In response to Reply # 0


          

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2016/12/healing-science-belief-placebo/

not so much about prayer or faith/belief in a religious sense, though it does look at it from that perspective including plenty of spiritual healing traditions - but it's more about the brain's ability to spur the body to heal itself depending on what the patient believes. Sort of an expanded view of the placebo effect, though that's not meant to belittle any of the components.

-------
so I'm in a band now:
album ---> http://greenwoodburns.bandcamp.com/releases
Soundcloud ---> http://soundcloud.com/greenwood-burns

my own stuff -->http://soundcloud.com/lonesomedstringband

avy by buckshot_defunct

  

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Case_One
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Tue Feb-21-17 12:54 PM

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6. "The Human Body is God's Masterpiece "
In response to Reply # 4


          


.
.

Wake up, Pray! Go to work, Pray! Go home, Pray! Love, Pray! Eat, Pray! Live, Pray!

  

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Boogie Stimuli
Member since Sep 24th 2010
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Tue Feb-21-17 01:01 PM

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7. "^^^ Much better article, b/c it's written without an agenda."
In response to Reply # 4
Tue Feb-21-17 01:01 PM by Boogie Stimuli

          

Even Case's article slipped once and said:
"Study after study backs up the benefits of
having faith, especially in prolonging life."
despite being biased toward religious belief
for most of the article.

~
~
~
~
~
Days like this I miss Sha Mecca

  

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Case_One
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Tue Feb-21-17 01:42 PM

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11. "What? Agenda.. LOL"
In response to Reply # 7


          

>Even Case's article slipped once and said:
>"Study after study backs up the benefits of
>having faith, especially in prolonging life."
>despite being biased toward religious belief
>for most of the article.


.
.

Wake up, Pray! Go to work, Pray! Go home, Pray! Love, Pray! Eat, Pray! Live, Pray!

  

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Boogie Stimuli
Member since Sep 24th 2010
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Tue Feb-21-17 02:06 PM

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14. "Yes. Agenda."
In response to Reply # 11
Tue Feb-21-17 02:08 PM by Boogie Stimuli

          

~
~
~
~
~
Days like this I miss Sha Mecca

  

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tomjohn29
Member since Oct 18th 2004
16802 posts
Tue Feb-21-17 01:04 PM

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9. "meditation and float tanks have been clutch for me over the last year"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

priced a float tank and was like may need to do it

______________________________________

Navem nu, cuando sol
Tutu nu, vondo nos nu
Vita em, no continous non
Nos nu ekta nos sepe ta, amen

When the sun shades the ship
We sweat and life is not safe
To swim or to touch not
When we unite we hedge amen

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Tue Feb-21-17 01:03 PM

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8. "Oh God."
In response to Reply # 0
Tue Feb-21-17 01:04 PM by stravinskian

          

Please deliver us from this specious logic, tabloid journalism, and internet trolling.

  

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Case_One
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Tue Feb-21-17 01:43 PM

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12. "Why do you hate Facts and Scientific research?"
In response to Reply # 8


          


.
.

Wake up, Pray! Go to work, Pray! Go home, Pray! Love, Pray! Eat, Pray! Live, Pray!

  

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PROMO
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10. "it's positive thinking that's healing, not prayer itself."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

now, if prayer is the form that positive thinking takes then that's just whatever.

  

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Atillah Moor
Member since Sep 05th 2013
13825 posts
Tue Feb-21-17 02:07 PM

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15. "They don't hear you. Lotta money in selling training wheels "
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
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Tue Feb-21-17 02:37 PM

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17. "What's the difference? "
In response to Reply # 10
Tue Feb-21-17 02:37 PM by Cold Truth

  

          

I get that you basically said this in the body of your post, but my question is whether or not it even matters to say it's "just" positive thinking.

One man's prayer is another mans positive thinking is another man's meditation is another man's....

is it not?

If so, why "correct" someone on it without more meaningful distinction?

  

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Boogie Stimuli
Member since Sep 24th 2010
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Tue Feb-21-17 02:42 PM

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18. "Do u think Case means positive thinking when he says prayer?"
In response to Reply # 17


          

~
~
~
~
~
Days like this I miss Sha Mecca

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
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Tue Feb-21-17 03:03 PM

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21. "I literally just asked "what's the difference" "
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

So what he "means" is immaterial to the question.

If the stance is "it's not prayer, it's positive thinking, and if your positive thinking is prayer, that's whatever", what's the difference?

If prayer works for case and positive thinking works for you, what's the difference and why are you/promo/whoever so pressed to push that on him or those who believe in prayer as opposed to positive thinking?

As I said in the post you responded to, if one man's prayer is another man's positive thinking is another man's meditation...

What's the difference? What would it do for you to get him to acquiesce to your personal perspective on this when he sees it another way entirely?

  

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PROMO
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22. "because the article has a pro-religious stance implying..."
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

that if you PRAY, you will feel better.

that may be true.

or you could just NOT pray and have a sunny disposition and feel the same.

point being it's implied that it's the RELIGIOUS aspect is what's making you feel good. it's not, it's the feeling good that's making you feel good.

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
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Tue Feb-21-17 03:32 PM

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25. "What's the difference!!!"
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

All you’re really saying is that you don’t really care for one in relation to the other.

You’re not saying what makes one objectively “worse” or “better” than the other.

It’s really just personal preference.

I don’t care how heavily the article itself leans on the religious aspect of it. That’s what works for some people. Positive thinking works for others.

What’s the difference? Don’t just tell me more about how one has a religious connotation and the other doesn’t; if the net effect, to you, is roughly the same, what’s the difference?

  

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PROMO
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26. "i just said what the difference was."
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

positive thought doesn't have to be steeped in religion.

prayer is steeped in religion.

is this confusing?

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
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Tue Feb-21-17 03:46 PM

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28. "Way to be condescending as you avoid the real question. "
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

What's the difference.

You say that the difference is that one has a religious connotation and the other does not.

Ahem: as I said, going back to your initial post...

if the net effect is the same...

What's the difference? If it works for case and works for you, what's the big deal with the need to enforce your preferred label onto Case??

  

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PROMO
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30. "nevermind man. "
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

i never said one was better or worse.

i said you can take the prayer out of it, or the religion out of it if you will, and still achieve the same benefits.

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
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Tue Feb-21-17 05:37 PM

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33. "LMAO nice, rather than answer the question it's "never mind". "
In response to Reply # 30


  

          

If the effect is the same, what's the difference?

You were game to get all condescending earlier with your lil 'is this confusing for you?' bit when you thought I wasn't paying attention but the second I point out that you're avoiding the actual context of my question suddenly it's "nevermind" rather than address the question within context.

I'm sure you'll magically have a lot to say the next time you wander into a post where I'm having a negative exchange with someone. When that happens, just remember how little you had to say in a civil discussion that simply didn't agree with you.

  

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PROMO
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41. "dude, you really have a persecution complex."
In response to Reply # 33


  

          

i wasn't being condescending, i was literally asking if i'm being confusing because i thought i was being pretty clear. thus, "is this confusing?"

and then again, i stated my point: you can achieve the same results without religion. i actually stated it like 3 times in response to your posts and the point didn't change from my very first reply to this post.

moving on.

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
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Tue Feb-21-17 09:33 PM

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47. "Lmao. Don't play dumb. You also never answered the question. "
In response to Reply # 41


  

          

>i wasn't being condescending, i was literally asking if i'm
>being confusing because i thought i was being pretty clear.
>thus, "is this confusing?"

Hiding hands. It reads very condescending. I called you on it and you feigned ignorance.

>and then again, i stated my point: you can achieve the same
>results without religion. i actually stated it like 3 times in
>response to your posts and the point didn't change from my
>very first reply to this post.

You stated your point....and avoided the question. Rather, you answered the question but avoided the context of the question...

Which was in fact asked in direct response to the point you repeated as nauseaum.

If you can achieve the same results with or without religion, what's the difference? Repeating the fact that one take is religious and the other is not is to be blatantly ignorant of the context of the question.

>moving on.

Of course. Rather than be a civil human being and just answer an honest question within the context in which it was asked you "move on".

Far as "persecution", lmao. I addressed another shining example of the same kinds of inconsistencies I've addressed with you before. You'd rather be a condescending dick than have a civil discussion when your perspective is challenged.

  

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PROMO
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Wed Feb-22-17 12:18 AM

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50. "fine. believe what you want."
In response to Reply # 47


  

          

i don't care.

  

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Cenario
Member since Aug 24th 2005
59180 posts
Tue Feb-21-17 03:13 PM

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23. "Science might prove that talking to a shoe has health benefits"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

Bc if enough people believe in the healing power of talking to a shoe, it would improve their outlook and possibly their health.

Still, not a convincing argument for talking to a shoe.

-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
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Tue Feb-21-17 03:42 PM

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27. "Why use an analogy of the information in the subject is sufficient "
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

You’re using a ridiculous hypothetical here that, while technically possible, is far from plausible or even reasonable. You’re not carrying the premise to it’s logical conclusion, you’re driving it toward an improbable and illogical premise.

Further, …. if science were actually able to *prove* that talking to a shoe had tangible healing properties, your argument would implode altogether. If it could substantiate that talking to a shoe had real healing properties then that would, by definition, be a compelling reason to talk to a shoe.

Still, that’s not the discussion taking place. Your scenario only works if you add a second option, say, talking to football jerseys, and we had a distinct group on each side of the fence swearing that each method worked. In that case you or promo or boogie would insist that it’s not one but the other and I’d still be here asking, if each side reports the same net effect, what’s the difference? Aside from your own personal dislike for one or the other… what’s the difference?

  

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Boogie Stimuli
Member since Sep 24th 2010
14015 posts
Tue Feb-21-17 08:07 PM

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46. "I'll definitely reply to this later... don't have time right now. n/m"
In response to Reply # 21


          

~
~
~
~
~
Days like this I miss Sha Mecca

  

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Boogie Stimuli
Member since Sep 24th 2010
14015 posts
Wed Feb-22-17 01:17 AM

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51. "So you asked PROMO that question, but since you've implied that"
In response to Reply # 21
Wed Feb-22-17 01:19 AM by Boogie Stimuli

          

it's somehow for me as well ("you/promo/whoever")
I have no issue with answering... but first let's
address the many words you typed in response to
MY simple, one-line question (to which you failed
to provide an answer, btw).

>So what he "means" is immaterial to the question.


I totally disagree, but we'll get back to that.


>If the stance is "it's not prayer, it's positive thinking, and
>if your positive thinking is prayer, that's whatever", what's
>the difference?
>
>If prayer works for case and positive thinking works for you,
>what's the difference and why are you/promo/whoever so pressed
>to push that on him or those who believe in prayer as opposed
>to positive thinking?


This is a completely illogical accusation, as
I've pushed absolutely nothing on him. If you'd
like to point out where I have, feel free (provide
this in replies 1-50 or I'll have no problem
reminding you that this is a completely illogical
accusation).


>As I said in the post you responded to, if one man's prayer is
>another man's positive thinking is another man's meditation...
>
>
>What's the difference? What would it do for you to get him to
>acquiesce to your personal perspective on this when he sees it
>another way entirely?


You're just being repetitive with that last bit
You also seem to want there to be an attack and
persecution where there is none, but that's neither
here nor there in the grand scheme of things,
so I'll move on to the difference and why it's
important.

The main difference is that positive thinking doesn't
require religion or belief in a god. Prayer, especially
as Case refers to it, is not only tied to religion
and belief in a god, but a very specific religion and
god. Refer to reply #5 (the one about the relationship
with the male God and his purpose for prayer) if you
doubt this. Promo is actually being more accepting
of different perspectives here than Case, yet PROMO
(and me for some reason) is the one you accuse of
"pushing" some belief or unbelief when he's the one
who literally said it's "whatever" what the next
person believes. His critique is more a critique of
the narrow scope of the article than of anyone who's
religious. It's very interesting that you can't see that.

There are two reasons this difference matters.
1)We have to be careful with empirical evidence
presented as scientific truth, because observations
don't deal with why's. White plantation owners were
healthier than their slaves. That doesn't mean
torturing human beings is good for your health.
Neither does it mean genetically recessive genes
make you healthier. Heterosexual children in the
60s were healthier than homosexual children. If
were not accounting for the social unrest they
endured, the empirical evidence means nothing.
PROMO simply told you what's behind the observation...
explained the phenomenon if you will. If you consider
that an attack, that's your personal issue. Articles
are criticized on here all the time.
2)As you know, Christianity and it's particular idea
of forgiveness was, and still is, used to subjugate
Black people from slavery to being gunned down by police.
So to push the idea that religion is needed to be healthy
can be very unhealthy to us, as a people, especially
when the only religion a lot of us have ever really
known is Christianity. It's important that MY people
no longer think any part of their life will be
cheapened by letting go of this tool of subjugation.




~
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~
~
~
Days like this I miss Sha Mecca

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
44838 posts
Wed Feb-22-17 11:08 AM

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54. "Meanwhile you responded to the question I asked Promo. "
In response to Reply # 51


  

          

>it's somehow for me as well ("you/promo/whoever")
>I have no issue with answering... but first let's
>address the many words you typed in response to
>MY simple, one-line question (to which you failed
>to provide an answer, btw).

False. In fact… I asked Promo a question, not you, and you responded without answering the question I asked and that’s the ONLY reason you got lumped in there. You interjected yourself into this, I didn’t drag you into it so please stop being obtuse with this “somehow” nonsense. The ‘many words” I typed were in response to your loaded- not “simple”- question. Can you honestly say that there are no implications to glean from your “simple” question?

>>So what he "means" is immaterial to the question.

>I totally disagree, but we'll get back to that.

Disagree all you want, but you’re incorrect. You asked what I thought he meant in response to my question to Promo. What Case meant was immaterial to the context of my question to Promo.

>This is a completely illogical accusation, as
>I've pushed absolutely nothing on him. If you'd
>like to point out where I have, feel free (provide
>this in replies 1-50 or I'll have no problem
>reminding you that this is a completely illogical
>accusation).

Really? Let’s start with your above assertions about the article having agendas. Stop acting like there’s nothing implicit in the direction of your question, like where you’re heading with that wasn’t obvious. In fact, in this post you go on to explain the distinction you see between the two approaches.

You’re trying to ”correct” his premise to “positive thinking” as opposed to “prayer”.

>You also seem to want there to be an attack and
>persecution where there is none, but that's neither
>here nor there in the grand scheme of things,
>so I'll move on to the difference and why it's
>important.

Attack/schmack, lol. I don’t “want” there to be anything. You’re grossly overstating my position.

>The main difference is that positive thinking doesn't
>require religion or belief in a god. Prayer, especially
>as Case refers to it, is not only tied to religion
>and belief in a god, but a very specific religion and
>god. Refer to reply #5 (the one about the relationship
>with the male God and his purpose for prayer) if you
>doubt this.

That doesn’t change anything about my question. In fact, it’s immaterial. My question is simple and your answer is insufficient: What’s the difference? Case can tie it to his deity all day, that doesn’t change the fact that “positive thinking” can work for you in the same way “prayer” to his deity works for him.

For all this talk about me feeling “persecuted”, I’m the only one between you, promo and myself that isn’t taking a stand on one side or the other. Rather, I’m saying it’s purely semantic: Regardless of what we call it, this works for me, that works for you, so why can’t you and I each do what works for ourselves?

Yet you and Promo both draw lines and distinctions around each. I’m the open minded person in this trio while you and Promo have a decidedly clear stance on one side of the fence over the other.

>Promo is actually being more accepting
>of different perspectives here than Case, yet PROMO
>(and me for some reason) is the one you accuse of
>"pushing" some belief or unbelief when he's the one
>who literally said it's "whatever" what the next
>person believes. His critique is more a critique of
>the narrow scope of the article than of anyone who's
>religious. It's very interesting that you can't see that.

Nope. The whole “if prayer is your positive thinking than that’s whatever” bit is the tell. He says that it’s not “prayer” but ‘positive thinking” that helps. He’s drawing a distinction between the two while equating them in a way that takes a dismissive slant toward prayer, and my question was in direct response to that tone:

If the net effect was the same, regardless of how you or I choose to frame it, what’s the difference?

It’s a question he refused to answer. His “answer” was “one is religious and the other isn’t, are you confused?” which is ridiculous. He just stated the obvious but avoided the question posed in it’s obvious context.

>1)We have to be careful with empirical evidence
>presented as scientific truth, because observations
>don't deal with why's. White plantation owners were
>healthier than their slaves. That doesn't mean
>torturing human beings is good for your health.
>Neither does it mean genetically recessive genes
>make you healthier. Heterosexual children in the
>60s were healthier than homosexual children. If
>were not accounting for the social unrest they
>endured, the empirical evidence means nothing.

This is so far off the reservation it’s laughable and you’re drawing nonsensical analogies. Oh, I understand the historical context your using but please spare me the lecture and get back on track.

>PROMO simply told you what's behind the observation...
>explained the phenomenon if you will.

LMAO he didn’t “explain” anything, at all. Not one bit.

>If you consider
>that an attack, that's your personal issue.

Didn’t call it an attack. Those are your words, not mine. In fact, my take was the opposite of calling it an attack; My critique was that rather than answer a perfectly civil question in the context it was given, he preferred to shut down the conversation.

That hardly qualifies as calling it an “attack”.

You’re all over the place.

>2)As you know, Christianity and it's particular idea
>of forgiveness was, and still is, used to subjugate
>Black people from slavery to being gunned down by police.
>So to push the idea that religion is needed to be healthy
>can be very unhealthy to us, as a people, especially
>when the only religion a lot of us have ever really
>known is Christianity. It's important that MY people
>no longer think any part of their life will be
>cheapened by letting go of this tool of subjugation.

Thing is, those are valid points in critiquing religion in a historical context but you’re running wild with Case’s premise, which is the point of discussion. He’s not that prayer is “needed” to be healthy, just that it’s beneficial. He says “this is beneficial, good and healthy”, yet you’re so automatically opposed that you read it as “this is necessary to be healthy”. You’re overstating his premise to support an argument that is decidedly opposed to his premise.

Were his premise as faulty as you say, you wouldn’t need to add so much spin to it. This also completely validates my earlier assertion that you want to “correct”, or push, the notion of “positive thinking” over “prayer”. More to the point, my stance is much more of a “live and let live” approach. You do what works for you, he does what works for him and it’s all good. Conversely, you seem to take issue with the promotion of prayer and list nothing but negative aspects of religion as executed by men and have given absolutely no credence to anything positive. To say that that take in response to his post isn’t direct pushback against it is to be in denial.

Again, to be crystal clear: I agree with your last statement in its entirety, just not within the context of Case’s premise or my question to Promo. There are serious issues with the way religion has been used as a tool of oppression against a great number of people, but that is not the totality of religion or Christianity and certainly far from the spirit of Case’s premise.
And my question remains:

If framing this as “positive thinking” works for you and “prayer” works for Case, what’s the difference?

  

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Boogie Stimuli
Member since Sep 24th 2010
14015 posts
Wed Feb-22-17 12:31 PM

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57. "B/c you responded to my question with "I literally just asked...""
In response to Reply # 54
Wed Feb-22-17 12:41 PM by Boogie Stimuli

          

At any rate, I'm gonna answer everything you typed
in an effort to discourage superfluous speech.

>>it's somehow for me as well ("you/promo/whoever")
>>I have no issue with answering... but first let's
>>address the many words you typed in response to
>>MY simple, one-line question (to which you failed
>>to provide an answer, btw).
>
>False.


What's false? Are you saying you answered?
Where?

>In fact… I asked Promo a question, not you,


Yeah, I established that in the title of my last response.


>and you
>responded without answering the question I asked


You just said the question was for PROMO.


>and that’s
>the ONLY reason you got lumped in there.


That seems to be dishonest since you later cite
previous responses for why you included me in
this "pressed to push that on him" accusation...
so how can my response to you be the ONLY reason?
Lies.


>You interjected
>yourself into this, I didn’t drag you into it


Yes, I did. The question still wasn't for me,
so I didn't answer it. My question, however,
was for you, and you still didn't answer it.


>so please stop
>being obtuse with this “somehow” nonsense. The ‘many
>words” I typed were in response to your loaded- not
>“simple”- question. Can you honestly say that there are
>no implications to glean from your “simple” question?


It's loaded from your perspective, because your
argument would fall apart if you answered it.
That's the only implication...
which is why you typed loads of words without
answering it. Had you answered it, I couldn't
say that anymore.
Furthermore, I find it VERY interesting that
you can find implications in my words, but you
can't find any at all in reply #5. But you're
Christian too right? Correct me if I'm wrong.


>>>So what he "means" is immaterial to the question.
>
>>I totally disagree, but we'll get back to that.
>
>Disagree all you want, but you’re incorrect. You asked what
>I thought he meant in response to my question to Promo. What
>Case meant was immaterial to the context of my question to
>Promo.



No, actually I'm still correct, and you're just
repeating yourself again.



>>This is a completely illogical accusation, as
>>I've pushed absolutely nothing on him. If you'd
>>like to point out where I have, feel free (provide
>>this in replies 1-50 or I'll have no problem
>>reminding you that this is a completely illogical
>>accusation).
>
>Really? Let’s start with your above assertions about the
>article having agendas. Stop acting like there’s nothing
>implicit in the direction of your question, like where
>you’re heading with that wasn’t obvious.


Your emotions and demands don't make your statements
true. So I say the article has an agenda. How is
this pushing anything on Case? As stated, that's
a critique of the article itself. Illogical accusation.


>In fact, in this
>post you go on to explain the distinction you see between the
>two approaches.


Yes, this is true... yet it still doesn't prove
your "pushing on him" accusation.



>You’re trying to ”correct” his premise to “positive
>thinking” as opposed to “prayer”.


Who do you mean when you say "him"? If you mean
the author of the article, you'd be correct.
As PROMO implied, prayer can be included in positive
thinking. Yet, positive thinking can't necessarily
be included in prayer depending on how it's defined,
so making that distinction isn't to push any belief
on anyone, but to make an important literary distinction.


>>You also seem to want there to be an attack and
>>persecution where there is none, but that's neither
>>here nor there in the grand scheme of things,
>>so I'll move on to the difference and why it's
>>important.
>
>Attack/schmack, lol. I don’t “want” there to be
>anything. You’re grossly overstating my position.



I'm not. There's no "pushing" going on here.
You're the one making the big deal about a very
simple critique of an article.


>>The main difference is that positive thinking doesn't
>>require religion or belief in a god. Prayer, especially
>>as Case refers to it, is not only tied to religion
>>and belief in a god, but a very specific religion and
>>god. Refer to reply #5 (the one about the relationship
>>with the male God and his purpose for prayer) if you
>>doubt this.
>
>That doesn’t change anything about my question. In fact,
>it’s immaterial. My question is simple and your answer is
>insufficient: What’s the difference? Case can tie it to his
>deity all day, that doesn’t change the fact that “positive
>thinking” can work for you in the same way “prayer” to
>his deity works for him.
>
>For all this talk about me feeling “persecuted”, I’m the
>only one between you, promo and myself that isn’t taking a
>stand on one side or the other. Rather, I’m saying it’s
>purely semantic: Regardless of what we call it, this works for
>me, that works for you, so why can’t you and I each do what
>works for ourselves?
>
>Yet you and Promo both draw lines and distinctions around
>each. I’m the open minded person in this trio while you and
>Promo have a decidedly clear stance on one side of the fence
>over the other.
>
>>Promo is actually being more accepting
>>of different perspectives here than Case, yet PROMO
>>(and me for some reason) is the one you accuse of
>>"pushing" some belief or unbelief when he's the one
>>who literally said it's "whatever" what the next
>>person believes. His critique is more a critique of
>>the narrow scope of the article than of anyone who's
>>religious. It's very interesting that you can't see that.
>
>Nope. The whole “if prayer is your positive thinking than
>that’s whatever” bit is the tell. He says that it’s not
>“prayer” but ‘positive thinking” that helps. He’s
>drawing a distinction between the two while equating them in a
>way that takes a dismissive slant toward prayer, and my
>question was in direct response to that tone:
>
>If the net effect was the same, regardless of how you or I
>choose to frame it, what’s the difference?
>
>It’s a question he refused to answer. His “answer” was
>“one is religious and the other isn’t, are you
>confused?” which is ridiculous. He just stated the obvious
>but avoided the question posed in it’s obvious context.



*sigh* I said this above, but I have to repeat it
here. "Prayer can be included in positive
thinking. Yet, positive thinking can't necessarily
be included in prayer depending on how it's defined,
so making that distinction isn't to push any belief
on anyone, but to make an important literary distinction."
You're asking about the difference in the RESULT of
each. There is none, and that in itself is important.
Why? Because prayer is a form of positive thinking.
This is about the use of words, not how you practice
whatever you practice. Serious question: Why is this
difficult for you to accept?



>>1)We have to be careful with empirical evidence
>>presented as scientific truth, because observations
>>don't deal with why's. White plantation owners were
>>healthier than their slaves. That doesn't mean
>>torturing human beings is good for your health.
>>Neither does it mean genetically recessive genes
>>make you healthier. Heterosexual children in the
>>60s were healthier than homosexual children. If
>>were not accounting for the social unrest they
>>endured, the empirical evidence means nothing.
>
>This is so far off the reservation it’s laughable and
>you’re drawing nonsensical analogies. Oh, I understand the
>historical context your using but please spare me the lecture
>and get back on track.


It makes complete sense. Perhaps you don't know what
"empirical" means or something? Feel free to share
how that's not making sense.


>>PROMO simply told you what's behind the observation...
>>explained the phenomenon if you will.
>
>LMAO he didn’t “explain” anything, at all. Not one bit.


He did. You're still asking an inconsequential question
about something you feel is inconsequential.


>>If you consider
>>that an attack, that's your personal issue.
>
>Didn’t call it an attack. Those are your words, not mine. In
>fact, my take was the opposite of calling it an attack; My
>critique was that rather than answer a perfectly civil
>question in the context it was given, he preferred to shut
>down the conversation.
>
>That hardly qualifies as calling it an “attack”.
>
>You’re all over the place.



If you see no attack, then what are you defending
so tenaciously?



>>2)As you know, Christianity and it's particular idea
>>of forgiveness was, and still is, used to subjugate
>>Black people from slavery to being gunned down by police.
>>So to push the idea that religion is needed to be healthy
>>can be very unhealthy to us, as a people, especially
>>when the only religion a lot of us have ever really
>>known is Christianity. It's important that MY people
>>no longer think any part of their life will be
>>cheapened by letting go of this tool of subjugation.
>
>Thing is, those are valid points in critiquing religion in a
>historical context but you’re running wild with Case’s
>premise, which is the point of discussion. He’s not that
>prayer is “needed” to be healthy, just that it’s
>beneficial. He says “this is beneficial, good and
>healthy”, yet you’re so automatically opposed that you
>read it as “this is necessary to be healthy”. You’re
>overstating his premise to support an argument that is
>decidedly opposed to his premise.


Well since we're just throwing out our psychological
evaluations, you keep making this about Case, because
you feel attacked by proxy.


>Were his premise as faulty as you say, you wouldn’t need to
>add so much spin to it.


There's no "spinning" going on. Just properly defining
things.


This also completely validates my
>earlier assertion that you want to “correct”, or push, the
>notion of “positive thinking” over “prayer”. More to
>the point, my stance is much more of a “live and let live”
>approach. You do what works for you, he does what works for
>him and it’s all good.



Yeah no one disagrees with that.


>Conversely, you seem to take issue
>with the promotion of prayer and list nothing but negative
>aspects of religion as executed by men and have given
>absolutely no credence to anything positive. To say that that
>take in response to his post isn’t direct pushback against
>it is to be in denial.



I want people to make an informed choice. Simple.




>Again, to be crystal clear: I agree with your last statement
>in its entirety, just not within the context of Case’s
>premise or my question to Promo. There are serious issues with
>the way religion has been used as a tool of oppression against
>a great number of people, but that is not the totality of
>religion or Christianity and certainly far from the spirit of
>Case’s premise.
>And my question remains:
>
>If framing this as “positive thinking” works for you and
>“prayer” works for Case, what’s the difference?


I've answered that already. But to be sure...
positive thinking includes prayer, but the reverse
isn't necessarily true, depending on who's defining it.
That's at least 2 or your questions I answered. Now,
mine was "Do you think Case means positive thinking
when he says prayer?"

~
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~
~
~
Days like this I miss Sha Mecca

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
44838 posts
Wed Feb-22-17 01:28 PM

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58. "Yes, that was the answer. "
In response to Reply # 57


  

          

>What's false? Are you saying you answered?
>Where?

I answered your question: Your question is immaterial to the question I asked.

I don’t care what Case meant. It has nothing to do with the question I asked. It's immaterial and if you understood the question you'd know why.

>Yeah, I established that in the title of my last response.
No you didn’t. Read the header.

>>and that’s
>>the ONLY reason you got lumped in there.

>That seems to be dishonest since you later cite
>previous responses for why you included me in
>this "pressed to push that on him" accusation...
>so how can my response to you be the ONLY reason?
>Lies.

No, you’re the liar. You interjected yourself into this and that’s the only reason I included you. The fact that I cited prior responses doesn’t change the *reason* you were included. But hey, keep up the petty deflections lol.

>Yes, I did. The question still wasn't for me,
>so I didn't answer it. My question, however,
>was for you, and you still didn't answer it.

Talk about repeating yourself!

>It's loaded from your perspective, because your
>argument would fall apart would fall apart if
>you answered it.

If you say so. It’s loaded because you have a clear perspective behind it. I didn’t answer because it was posed in response to my question and it’s immaterial to my question.

>Furthermore, I find it VERY interesting that
>you can find implications in my words, but you
>can't find any at all in reply #5. But you're
>Christian too right? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Did I answer reply 5? Did I reply to reply #5? No?
The only thing VERY interesting here is your continued usage of petty deflections.


>Your emotions and demands don't make your statements
>true. So I say the article has an agenda. How
>this pushing anything on Case? As stated, that's
>a critique of the article itself. Illogical accusation.

loL@emotions. You keep interjecting emotion where there is none. I call Promo on his passive aggressive approach and you say that I act “persecuted” and “attacked’.

Anyhow, the critique being centered on the article itself is a distinction without a difference because it underscores your stance and that leads to my question of “what’s the difference”.

You say you’re not trying to “push” your perspective on him and yet you do want to correct him and downplay his premise of prayer being beneficial. You certainly can’t let his assertion of prayer having a positive effect on people stand unchallenged without drawing more distinctions so..again… what’s the difference?

If you want your semantic point for “pushing”, you can have it. My point is that you clearly have an issue with his premise of prayer being beneficial as is.

>Who do you mean when you say "him"? If you mean
>the author of the article, you'd be correct.

Don’t be dense. I’m talking about Case. You can be cute all you want trying to draw lines between Case and the article as though there’s a real distinction. Case read the article, agreed with it, and shared it. It’s perfectly reasonable speak of either or in interchangeable terms. Unless you’re publishing a paper and need to cite your source or something along those lines, it’s irrelevant. But again… you’re awfully keen on these petty deflections.

>As PROMO implied, prayer can be included in positive
>thinking.

Except what he actually said was “if prayer is your positive thinking it’s whatever”.

So no, he didn’t imply this.

>Yet, positive thinking can't necessarily
>be included in prayer depending on how it's defined,
>so making that distinction isn't to push any belief
>on anyone, but to make an important literary distinction.

How it’s defined is up to the individual. You’re in full on hair splitting mode at this point and derailing the entire discussion into minutiae. Cute tactic but I’m not going to indulge that nonsense any further.

>I'm not. There's no "pushing" going on here.
>You're the one making the big deal about a very
>simple critique of an article.

No, in fact. I simply asked the very simple question, “what’s the difference”.

That’s it.

Promo got cute and condescending when he thought I was lost in the discussion and promptly shut down the second I explained the context of my question. I called him on it. The end.
That’s a passive aggressive move, not an “attack”. I’ve repeatedly framed that as anything but an “attack” and your assertion doesn’t change this.

>*sigh* I said this above, but I have to repeat it
>here.

No you don’t. You choose to.

Look, if you’re going to harp on me repeating myself, don’t spend your whole response repeating yourself. If you wanted a more concise discussion you’d have one, but you insist on meandering.


>You're asking about the difference in the RESULT of
>each. There is none, and that in itself is important.
>Why? Because prayer is a form of positive thinking.
>This is about the use of words, not how you practice
>whatever you practice. Serious question: Why is this
>difficult for you to accept?

No, it’s about how you practice. You don’t really have an argument to occupy your time if you view it that way, so you prefer the tedium of semantics over the practical application inherent in my original question.

>>>1)We have to be careful with empirical evidence
>>>presented as scientific truth, because observations
>>>don't deal with why's. White plantation owners were
>>>healthier than their slaves. That doesn't mean
>>>torturing human beings is good for your health.
>>>Neither does it mean genetically recessive genes
>>>make you healthier. Heterosexual children in the
>>>60s were healthier than homosexual children. If
>>>were not accounting for the social unrest they
>>>endured, the empirical evidence means nothing.


>It makes complete sense. Perhaps you don't know what
>"empirical" means or something? Feel free to share
>how that's not making sense.

Ah, more of this condescending bullshit. Of course, the second I call that spade for what it is you’ll jump back on the whole “persecution” train and pretend that that’s a sincere approach to any discussion trying to derail this further.

As far as why your winding rant up there made no sense, you’re taking “prayer is proven to have positive effects” and running to ridiculous hyperbole as a counter.

Yes, you’re correct. White slave owners being healthier than the slaves they own is not a sign that torturing people is good for your health.

In fact, that response isn’t even hyperbole. It’s a complete non-sequitur. The historical use of religion to oppress really is another conversation entirely. You can make all the loose connections to the base premise of “prayer has positive effects” but it’s so flimsy you should be embarrassed that you went there.

>He did. You're still asking an inconsequential question
>about something you feel is inconsequential.

No he didn’t. It’s up there and available to read. He didn’t explain anything.


>If you see no attack, then what are you defending
>so tenaciously?

More petty diversions? Why can’t you just admit that you’re wrong? It’s a conversation, one you seem very invested in yourself, no more and no less. You state your case, I state mine, that’s how these things work. By this definition, anyone who engages in a discussion and defends their positon must feel attacked. It’s just nonsense.

>Well since we're just throwing out our psychological
>evaluations, you keep making this about Case, because
>you feel attacked by proxy.

LMAO. Can’t resist, can you? Can’t just stick to the subject. Such a tell.


>There's no "spinning" going on. Just properly defining
>things.

Cool. We completely disagree.

>Yeah no one disagrees with that.

Promo certainly couldn’t bring himself to agree with it, and you’ve spent all this time arguing with me when that was my premise the entire time.

So if you don’t disagree, why are we here?

>I want people to make an informed choice. Simple.

Lol I’ll take your word for that. It’s not that you have a definitively negative perception of religion as a whole, that doesn’t come through at all and you haven’t made any statements to indicate such a decidedly opposed stance.

Nope, this is solely about people making an informed choice.


>I've answered that already. But to be sure...
>positive thinking includes prayer, but the reverse
>isn't necessarily true, depending on who's defining it.
>That's at least 2 or your questions I answered. Now,
>mine was "Do you think Case means positive thinking
>when he says prayer?"

Uh… no. Again, you’re not answering my question. Not in the context it’s been asked.

The individual will define what they do. It doesn’t matter how they define what they do.

I’m not asking what the difference is between “positive thinking” and “prayer”.

I’m asking, if positive thinking works for you and prayer works for case, what’s the difference? The question is centered on two people approaching this concept from different sides of what can generally be concluded to be two sides of a very similar coin and achieving similar results.

If each framework works for each person, what’s the difference?
Actually… I take that back. You did answer this question when you said “nobody disagrees with you”.

Frankly I don’t care what Case meant, because it’s immaterial to my question. In fact your break down of the distinctions between prayer and positive thinking feeds into my question and doesn’t change it at all. If column A works for you and column B works for Case, may each find fulfilment in his chosen methods. I see no reason to tell either of you that what you’re practicing does or doesn’t work for the reasons you think it does. Conversely, you and Promo see a need to make sure Case knows the prayer doesn’t do anything and it’s REALLY positive thinking that helps.

  

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Boogie Stimuli
Member since Sep 24th 2010
14015 posts
Wed Feb-22-17 01:54 PM

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60. "You literally just proved my point and pretended you didn't..."
In response to Reply # 58


          

I said...

>>As PROMO implied, prayer can be included in positive
>>thinking.


And you say...


>Except what he actually said was “if prayer is your positive
>thinking it’s whatever”.
>
>So no, he didn’t imply this.



Did you mean to do this? lmao
This is hilarious, man.
There's a reason he didn't say "if positive thinking is
your prayer it's whatever."
Sit back and work your brain to figure out why that is,
and this will all make sense to you. Smh.



~
~
~
~
~
Days like this I miss Sha Mecca

  

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PROMO
Charter member
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Wed Feb-22-17 01:56 PM

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61. "Boogie, I just want you to know * I * appreciate you."
In response to Reply # 60


  

          

lol.

  

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Boogie Stimuli
Member since Sep 24th 2010
14015 posts
Wed Feb-22-17 02:01 PM

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62. "Lol *salutes*"
In response to Reply # 61


          

~
~
~
~
~
Days like this I miss Sha Mecca

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
44838 posts
Wed Feb-22-17 02:08 PM

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63. ".....and that's still immaterial to my very simple question"
In response to Reply # 60
Wed Feb-22-17 02:09 PM by Cold Truth

  

          

Because you both still think that it's about how each approach differs from the other as opposed to whether or not eeach approach is perfectly valid and can be applied to similar effect for different people without the need to tell anyone who practices either what their approach "really" is.

Thanks for playing though.

  

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Boogie Stimuli
Member since Sep 24th 2010
14015 posts
Wed Feb-22-17 02:16 PM

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64. "All of that has been thoroughly addressed in my previous replies."
In response to Reply # 63


          

Have a good day.

~
~
~
~
~
Days like this I miss Sha Mecca

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
44838 posts
Wed Feb-22-17 02:18 PM

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65. "Nah. But it's all good. "
In response to Reply # 64


  

          

  

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Rjcc
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94964 posts
Tue Feb-21-17 05:35 PM

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32. "oh, you need scientific evidence now?"
In response to Reply # 0


          


www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
44838 posts
Tue Feb-21-17 05:38 PM

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34. "I missed the part where he said he "needed" scientific evidence"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

  

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hitdog
Member since Feb 01st 2003
210 posts
Tue Feb-21-17 05:56 PM

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35. "if science "proves" it, then it wasn't already established."
In response to Reply # 34


  

          

can't have it both ways.

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
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Tue Feb-21-17 06:01 PM

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36. "*reads alias name, moves on*"
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

Not entertaining you.

  

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hitdog
Member since Feb 01st 2003
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Tue Feb-21-17 07:14 PM

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42. "*shrug*"
In response to Reply # 36


  

          

  

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SoWhat
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Tue Feb-21-17 06:30 PM

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37. "faith is the evidence of things NOT SEEN. Or proved."
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

So having it verified by science and crowing about that is pretty backasswards.

fuck you.

  

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Rjcc
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Tue Feb-21-17 07:15 PM

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43. "gotta choose"
In response to Reply # 37


          


www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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Case_One
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Thu Feb-23-17 08:00 AM

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75. "Not even. Science can confirm the evidence of one's faith in God's abili..."
In response to Reply # 37
Thu Feb-23-17 08:01 AM by Case_One

          

>So having it verified by science and crowing about that is
>pretty backasswards.

For example. A Woman is barren. The Medical test proves that she can't have children. The Woman prays, believes God for a Miracle by faith. A prophet of God says she will have children by faith. Woman's faith is moving in the will of God. She gets pregnant. The Medical results show healing in her body and it confirms that her condition changed. Science confirmed her faith.




.
.

Wake up, Pray! Go to work, Pray! Go home, Pray! Love, Pray! Eat, Pray! Live, Pray!

  

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SoWhat
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Thu Feb-23-17 09:27 AM

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77. "no."
In response to Reply # 75


  

          

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=no0qB8CVspY

fuck you.

  

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ternary_star
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Sat Feb-25-17 11:35 AM

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87. "that didn't happen. you're making shit up."
In response to Reply # 75


  

          

there have been zero scientifically confirmed "miracles" in our entire recorded history.

  

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Case_One
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Mon Feb-27-17 12:26 PM

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98. "I'm not making anything up. You're just mad that it happened. "
In response to Reply # 87


          


.
.

Wake up, Pray! Go to work, Pray! Go home, Pray! Love, Pray! Eat, Pray! Live, Pray!

  

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Atillah Moor
Member since Sep 05th 2013
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94. "When reading the source texts virgin births are not a thing "
In response to Reply # 75


  

          

artificial insemination and good old fashioned copulation are the only methods mentioned

  

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Case_One
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99. "Well this example was not an insemination example. "
In response to Reply # 94


          



.
.

Wake up, Pray! Go to work, Pray! Go home, Pray! Love, Pray! Eat, Pray! Live, Pray!

  

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Atillah Moor
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102. "I see what you're saying but regardless isn't the power inside "
In response to Reply # 99


  

          

not outside the body? How could it be outside if man is Gods temple for God to dwell in? Doesn't that basically mean it's coming from within as a result of an inward connection?

  

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Stringer Bell
Member since Mar 15th 2004
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38. "If prayer "works" in this way"
In response to Reply # 0


          

no matter which god one prays to, what would Case's explanation be?

Does Yahweh reward prayers to Allah by bestowing longer life on those who make them (even though this is a direct violation of his commandment to make no other gods before Him?)

Hmm...

  

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double 0
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48. "RE: If prayer "works" in this way"
In response to Reply # 38


          

>no matter which god one prays to, what would Case's
>explanation be?
>
>Does Yahweh reward prayers to Allah by bestowing longer life
>on those who make them (even though this is a direct violation
>of his commandment to make no other gods before Him?)
>
>Hmm...

Zactly... speakingh of gods.. why are all the young gods so wack? Sumerian gods, egyptians gods.. odon was cool as shit!! What happened? Loin cloth gods aint stuntin like the olden gods..

Double 0
DJ/Producer/Artist
Producer in Kidz In The Hall
-------------------------------------------
twitter: @godouble0
IG: @godouble0
www.thinklikearapper.com

  

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handle
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44. " NewsmaxHealth?? GTFOH. "
In response to Reply # 0


          

Stormfront.org says it's scientifically proven that hitting a sneaky Asian in the face with a hammer is good for your health.

JESUS, WTF is wrong with people??

NEWSMAX?????????????????????

------------


Gone: My Discogs collection for The Roots:
http://www.discogs.com/user/tomhayes-roots/collection

  

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Case_One
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45. "So I take it that you didn't read the article and the citations. "
In response to Reply # 44


          


.
.

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Atillah Moor
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52. "So which God of the Bible gets our prayers? There are at least 3"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Not including Jesus. If the power of our creators is inside of us doesn't that mean what we call god (even Jesus says he will dwell in the hearts of men) is in us as well?

Therefore perhaps the positive results of "prayer" are due to us humans actually connecting to that part of us which can affect the physical through words and thoughts.

Science seems to support this as well in the research done to examine water crystal patterns exposed to positive and negative sounding speech.

Just because science can explain something doesn't make it any less amazing.

  

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Case_One
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73. "There's only one Lord God in the Bible. "
In response to Reply # 52


          

So, please tell me about the Three God's that you found in the Bible.
.
.

Wake up, Pray! Go to work, Pray! Go home, Pray! Love, Pray! Eat, Pray! Live, Pray!

  

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Atillah Moor
Member since Sep 05th 2013
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82. "I already put up the facts behind that, but who is the 'Us' in let us?"
In response to Reply # 73
Thu Feb-23-17 04:18 PM by Atillah Moor

  

          

if the trinity is your answer that is technically multiple gods.

The old testament and likely parts of the new (i.e. The Revelation) are the re-writings of ancient Sumerian "Epics". Archaeologists began translating the cuneiform (first recorded written language) tablets about 30 years ago and about 200 people exist who can translate what's been made available so far and all translations have been more or less the same. The Sumerians were highly advanced and kept libraries which have since been discovered.

their writings reveal what we call 'God" are what the bible refers to as the Elohim and that the Elohim are our creators and capital "G" God is the creator of the Elohim as well as the universe (we assume)

If you took a book of greek myth and replaced all the names with 'God" then edited for obvious contradictions of the words usage you would have what's essentially been done with the bible.

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Wed Feb-22-17 07:53 AM

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53. "So prayer is on party with placebos"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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TheAlbionist
Member since Jul 04th 2011
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55. "Yup."
In response to Reply # 53
Wed Feb-22-17 11:18 AM by TheAlbionist

  

          

Placebos can work. Meditation can work. Positive thinking can work. Prayer can work.

This all says a lot about human biology/psychology and next to nothing about whether God is hearing our prayers, but leave it to Case and science just proved the existence of God.

I hope people don't feel compelled to visit their pastor instead of their oncologist because of this. Phrasing things in the way of the OP is extremely dangerous and could easily lead to needless death and suffering.

_______________________________

))<>((
forever.

  

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Case_One
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56. "RE: So prayer is on party with placebos. Not Really"
In response to Reply # 53


          

As I explained in an earlier response, prayer is more than meditation, and to consider prayer to be a low level placebo is ridiculous.
.
.

Wake up, Pray! Go to work, Pray! Go home, Pray! Love, Pray! Eat, Pray! Live, Pray!

  

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Atillah Moor
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59. "focused meditation and focused prayer have the same end result"
In response to Reply # 56
Wed Feb-22-17 01:55 PM by Atillah Moor

  

          

which is directed positive energy (or whatever the opposite of anti-matter i.e. negative energy is) toward a subject or situation

  

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Case_One
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70. "You're limiting yourself with that thinking. Prayer is way deeper than t..."
In response to Reply # 59


          

>which is directed positive energy (or whatever the opposite
>of anti-matter i.e. negative energy is) toward a subject or
>situation


Have your ever seen someone's meditation heal a baby?



.
.

Wake up, Pray! Go to work, Pray! Go home, Pray! Love, Pray! Eat, Pray! Live, Pray!

  

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Atillah Moor
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80. "How is my thinking limited by opening prayer up to scientific principles..."
In response to Reply # 70
Thu Feb-23-17 11:22 AM by Atillah Moor

  

          

Humans were created scientifically. And even though it's been written over the bible is still essentially telling you that. The sixth day likely represents carbon* which is 6 on the periodic chart and man is a carbon based creature. Carbon was a needed ingredient in getting mans creation right (according to the oldest accounts)*.


RE: You're limiting yourself with that thinking. Prayer is way deeper than that

Based on what? Faith in prayer's power is not enough to say "it's deeper". It's enough to say there's something to it or that it can work. If you want to say it's deeper than you need to bring some scriptures or something factoring in that it's translated from "serve".


>Have your ever seen someone's meditation heal a baby?

No because in western culture meditation takes the form of prayer. Doesn't Jesus say "this is how you should pray" which implies more than one way? Doesn't the bible say that the language of man was confused? Wouldn't this include man's beliefs?

I would bet the farm that in the far East people are being healed by meditation because they are both ways of connecting to our internal energy or spiritual selves i.e the god in us.




*From the Sumerian creation account which predates the Hebrew
"In the clay vessel the admixture they made, the oval of an Earth female with Anunnaki male essence they put together. The fertilized egg into the womb of Ninmah by Enki was inserted. There was conception.

clay contains a ton of carbon

  

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Case_One
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83. "It all Belongs to God. "
In response to Reply # 80


          

>Humans were created scientifically. And even though it's been
>written over the bible is still essentially telling you that.
>The sixth day likely represents carbon* which is 6 on the
>periodic chart and man is a carbon based creature. Carbon was
>a needed ingredient in getting mans creation right (according
>to the oldest accounts)*.
>
>
>RE: You're limiting yourself with that thinking. Prayer is way
>deeper than that
>
>Based on what? Faith in prayer's power is not enough to say
>"it's deeper". It's enough to say there's something to it or
>that it can work. If you want to say it's deeper than you need
>to bring some scriptures or something factoring in that it's
>translated from "serve".
>
>
>>Have your ever seen someone's meditation heal a baby?
>
>No because in western culture meditation takes the form of
>prayer. Doesn't Jesus say "this is how you should pray" which
>implies more than one way? Doesn't the bible say that the
>language of man was confused? Wouldn't this include man's
>beliefs?
>
>I would bet the farm that in the far East people are being
>healed by meditation because they are both ways of connecting
>to our internal energy or spiritual selves i.e the god in us.
>
>
>
>
>
>*From the Sumerian creation account which predates the Hebrew
>"In the clay vessel the admixture they made, the oval of an
>Earth female with Anunnaki male essence they put together. The
>fertilized egg into the womb of Ninmah by Enki was inserted.
>There was conception.
>
>clay contains a ton of carbon
>


.
.

Wake up, Pray! Go to work, Pray! Go home, Pray! Love, Pray! Eat, Pray! Live, Pray!

  

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Atillah Moor
Member since Sep 05th 2013
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84. "All things belong to the Creator of All Things "
In response to Reply # 83


  

          

The Earth was already here when the spirit of the Lord moved upon the face of the waters

  

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Case_One
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90. "GOD. Thanks for Supporting. "
In response to Reply # 84


          

>The Earth was already here when the spirit of the Lord moved
>upon the face of the waters

So you acknowledge te existence of God?

.
.

Wake up, Pray! Go to work, Pray! Go home, Pray! Love, Pray! Eat, Pray! Live, Pray!

  

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Atillah Moor
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92. "Never denied it. But what we call 'god' are other created beings"
In response to Reply # 90
Sun Feb-26-17 07:22 AM by Atillah Moor

  

          

That's what the oldest writings say. Writings most likely from before the confusion of mankind. It appears that all religions worship the children of the creator not the creator himself and we humans are the result of these children creating and mating with their creation.

  

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Case_One
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108. "The Lord God is not a What. He is who He is."
In response to Reply # 92


          

>That's what the oldest writings say. Writings most likely
>from before the confusion of mankind. It appears that all
>religions worship the children of the creator not the creator
>himself and we humans are the result of these children
>creating and mating with their creation.


.
.

Wake up, Pray! Go to work, Pray! Go home, Pray! Love, Pray! Eat, Pray! Live, Pray!

  

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Atillah Moor
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Tue Feb-28-17 08:47 AM

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111. "Regardless all religions are worshiping the creation not creator"
In response to Reply # 108


  

          

  

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MME
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66. "Newsmax....smh"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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Case_One
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71. "So the facts in the Newsmax article are not correct?"
In response to Reply # 66


          


.
.

Wake up, Pray! Go to work, Pray! Go home, Pray! Love, Pray! Eat, Pray! Live, Pray!

  

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MME
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88. "You reading Newsmax is not correct"
In response to Reply # 71


  

          

  

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Case_One
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89. "So you don't have an issue with the article in Newsmax?"
In response to Reply # 88


          


.
.

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Mynoriti
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67. "Yeah, but only if you copy and paste it in your status"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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RobOne4
Member since Jun 06th 2003
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68. "i like how we are picking and choosing when to use science"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

November 8th, 2005 The greatest night in the history of GD!

  

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Case_One
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72. "Meaning what? I've never had a problem with Science. "
In response to Reply # 68


          

I've always said that Science confirms the miracles of God. So what are you talking about?

Really? Please tell me.



.
.

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ternary_star
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86. "except when it's proving evolution..."
In response to Reply # 72


  

          

  

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Case_One
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107. "Such as?"
In response to Reply # 86


          

>


.
.

Wake up, Pray! Go to work, Pray! Go home, Pray! Love, Pray! Eat, Pray! Live, Pray!

  

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ternary_star
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115. "every time there's a discussion on evolution..."
In response to Reply # 107


  

          

you deny every piece of science that proves it and ask why you can't seen it happening in real time, which obviously isn't possible.

  

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Atillah Moor
Member since Sep 05th 2013
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Wed Mar-01-17 12:00 PM

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130. "What about the fact that the theory belongs to a fervent racist "
In response to Reply # 115


  

          

and gets it wrong on the first try with how it's named?

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Thu Feb-23-17 11:15 AM

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78. "William James 'The Will to Believe'"
In response to Reply # 0


          

In which James uses pragmatism to justify his belief in God. In Pragmatic thought...we do not declare something as 'true' because of evidence pertaining to it's 'truth with a capital T'. We believe something to be true because the consequences of doing so are favorable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Will_to_Believe

  

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Ted Gee Seal
Member since Apr 18th 2007
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Thu Feb-23-17 11:17 AM

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79. "http://deanradin.com/evidence/Astin2000.pdf"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://deanradin.com/evidence/Astin2000.pdf

^^ some context for anyone interested.

Just IMO though.

  

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Atillah Moor
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81. "Interesting paper"
In response to Reply # 79


  

          

  

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lionelzeus
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85. "LOL uh no"
In response to Reply # 0


          

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/12082681/ns/health-heart_health/t/power-prayer-flunks-unusual-test/#.WLCMJjsrLIU

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html

http://web.med.harvard.edu/sites/RELEASES/html/3_31STEP.html

Largest Study of Third-Party Prayer Suggests Such Prayer Not Effective In Reducing Complications Following Heart Surgery

praying hands BOSTON, MA-March 31, 2006-For those facing surgery or battling disease, the prayers of others can be a comfort. Researchers in the Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP), the largest study to examine the effects of intercessory prayer-prayer provided by others-evaluated the impact of such prayer on patients recovering from coronary artery bypass graft (CABG) surgery.
The STEP team, composed of investigators at six academic medical centers, including Baptist Memorial Hospital in Memphis, Tennessee; Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center in Boston, Massachusetts; Integris Baptist Medical Center in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma; Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota; St. Joseph's Hospital in Tampa, Florida; Washington Hospital Center in Washington, D.C; and the Mind/Body Medical Institute, found that intercessory prayer had no effect on recovery from surgery without complications. The study also found that patients who knew they were receiving intercessory prayer fared worse. The paper appears in the April issue of American Heart Journal.

"The primary goal of STEP was to evaluate whether intercessory prayer or the knowledge of receiving it would influence recovery after bypass surgery," said co-author Jeffery A. Dusek, Harvard Medical School instructor of medicine and Associate Research Director at the Mind/Body Medical Institute. Each year, 350,000 Americans have coronary artery bypass graft surgery. Though medical techniques and post-operative care have improved dramatically in recent years, the surgery is stressful. Earlier studies have shown that many patients enlist friends and family to provide private prayer for support during surgery and recovery.

STEP investigators enrolled 1,802 bypass surgery patients from six hospitals and randomly assigned each to one of three groups: 604 patients received intercessory prayer after being informed they may or may not receive prayers (Group 1); 597 patients did not receive prayer after being informed they may or may not receive prayer (Group 2); and 601 patients received intercessory prayer after being informed they would receive it (Group 3).

Caregivers and independent auditors comparing case reports to medical records were unaware of the patients' assignments throughout the study. The study enlisted members of three Christian groups, two Catholic and one Protestant, to provide prayer throughout the multi-year study. The researchers approached other denominations, but none were able to make the time commitments that the study required.

Some patients were told they may or may not receive intercessory prayer: complications occurred in 52 percent of those who received prayer (Group 1) versus 51 percent of those who did not receive prayer (Group 2). Complications occurred in 59 percent of patients who were told they would receive prayer (Group 3) versus 52 percent, who also received prayer, but were uncertain of receiving it (Group 1). Major complications and thirty-day mortality were similar across the three groups.

Unlike traditional intercessory prayers, STEP investigators imposed limitations on the usual way prayer-givers would normally provide prayer. The researchers standardized the start and duration of prayers and provided only the patients' first name and last initial. Prayers began on the eve or day of surgery and continued daily for 14 days. Everyone prayed for received the same standardized prayer. Providing the names of patients directed prayer-givers away from a desire to pray for everyone participating in the study. Because the study was designed to investigate intercessory prayer, the results cannot be extrapolated to other types of prayer.

"Our study was never intended to address the existence of God or the presence or absence of intelligent design in the universe. The study did not endeavor, either, to compare the efficacy of one prayer form over another or to assess participants' understanding of the nature and purpose of prayer. Finally, it was not our objective to discover whether prayers from one religious group work better than prayers from another," said co-author Father Dean Marek, Director, Chaplain Services, Mayo Clinic. Patients across the three groups had similar religious profiles. Most believed in spiritual healing and almost all believed friends or relatives would be praying for them. Investigators did not ask patients to have their friends and families withhold prayers, and assumed that many patients prayed for themselves during the study.

"One caveat is that with so many individuals receiving prayer from friends and family, as well as personal prayer, it may be impossible to disentangle the effects of study prayer from background prayer," said co-author Manoj Jain, Baptist Memorial Hospital, Memphis, Tennessee.

Investigators focused on patients undergoing one procedure with well-known complication rates and included a pre-trial analysis to determine the appropriate sample size required to yield statistically significant results. They employed a list of complications defined by the Society of Thoracic Surgeons and any patient showing one or more complications registered as a single complication, improving on previous studies which used non-standard criteria. To ensure the validity of the results, investigators designed STEP as a multi-center randomized controlled trial with the customary features of clinical trials, such as blinded audits, a consent process approved by an Institutional Review Board and independent monitoring by a Data and Safety Monitoring Board.

"Each study builds on others, and STEP advanced the design beyond what had been previously done," said Dusek. "The findings, however, could well be due to the study limitations."

  

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Case_One
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91. "UOH OH... The Response to STEP. What Do Prayer Studies Prove?"
In response to Reply # 85


          

What Do Prayer Studies Prove?

When a landmark study suggests that intercessory prayer may actually hurt patients instead of help them, you have to wonder.
Gregory Fung and Christopher Fung/ MAY 15, 2009

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2009/may/27.43.html

Should your doctor prescribe prayer as part of your treatment? According to a study of 1,134 physicians this past December by Health Care Direct Research, the majority of doctors (70 percent) believe miracles are possible today. Yet fewer than 29 percent believe that the outcomes of medical treatments are related to "supernatural forces" or "acts of God."

Studies on prayer in medicine have a way of demarcating the battle lines between saints and skeptics: Christians long for scientific proof of the efficacy of prayer. Critics, waiting for the opposite, hope to undermine religious faith. For better or worse, we have seen many attempts to measure the healing effects of intercessory prayer. The first known studies were published in 1873 by English polymath Francis Galton. He found no statistical evidence that prayer prolonged life or reduced stillbirths (though his findings would not meet today's criteria for a controlled prospective study).

More recently, various prayer experiments have caught the attention of evangelicals who are eager to show a positive connection between faith and science. One that generated particular excitement was Randolph Byrd's 1988 study, which observed 393 patients admitted to the coronary care unit of San Francisco General Hospital. About half of the patients were prayed for by "born-again Christians with daily devotional prayer and active Christian fellowship in a local church." The other half served as a control group (they received no prayer). In this study, the prayer group significantly outscored the control group.

Byrd's published report received criticism on a number of fronts, however, including possible unintentional unblinding (for example, the research assistant who knew which patients received the special prayers also collected the clinical data), and non-independent outcome variables. The latter involved the observation that most of the 6 of 29 variables in which the prayed-for group fared better were probably interrelated (meaning the 6 variables could have influenced each other).

The effect of these and other methodological problems has been to render Byrd's paper too murky to serve as evidence of God's direct activity in healing. Such controversies have been par for the course when it comes to prayer experiments: too few patients; unblinded researchers or subjects; invalid outcome measures; inappropriate statistical methods; randomization problems; and suspected outright fraud. (For a detailed analysis of many previous prayer studies, see our website IntercessoryPrayerStudies.com.)

A Celebrated Study
Three years ago, however, results from a landmark study carefully designed to put the debate to rest went public. The study received some attention at the time, but seemed to have escaped the notice of many Christians, probably because of its surprising—and for Christians, disturbing—conclusions. The Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP), conducted under the auspices of Harvard Medical School, was by far the most comprehensive of its kind. The study required 10 years and $2.4 million, and was mainly underwritten by the John Templeton Foundation, a supporter of studies that explore the intersection between religion and science.

STEP was simple and elegant, conforming to standard research norms and protocols: 1,802 patients, all admitted for coronary artery bypass graft surgery, were divided into three randomized groups. Two of the groups received prayer from committed Christians with experience praying for the sick. But only one group's members knew they were being prayed for. The result: The group whose members knew they were being prayed for did worse in terms of post-operative complications than those whose members were unsure if they were receiving prayer. The knowledge that they were being prayed for by a special group of intercessors seemed to have a negative effect on their health.

The two groups that were unsure of whether they were receiving prayer were also compared. One group actually received prayer (the same group mentioned above), while the other did not. This time, the group that had received prayer experienced more major complications than the group without additional prayer. In other words, the study seemed to show that prayer—at least prayer from strangers—might be bad for one's health. The results were disappointing to those who had hoped to see the positive effects of additional intercessory prayer. (They also may have been surprising to skeptics who were expecting no effect at all.)

Many have questioned the validity of the study, including the authors themselves, who worried that "… being aware of the strangers' prayers … may have caused some of the patients a kind of performance anxiety. It may have made them uncertain, wondering, am I so sick that they had to call in their prayer team?" Evangelicals' responses have included the observation that many of the patients, after all, were either praying for themselves or had friends and family praying for them (96 percent reported having others praying for them). This reality could drown out any effect of the additional prayers. Other Christians claim that intercessory prayer investigations are problematic, given the various New Testament examples of physical healing through direct, in-person prayers—a scenario that would be impossible to test in any double-blind way. A third response has been, as one high-profile hospital chaplain said, that "God is not subject to scientific research."

C.S. Lewis anticipated a carefully designed prayer study, but did not think it would show any positive, measurable "results." "The trouble is that I do not see how any real prayer could go on under such conditions," Lewis said. "Simply to say prayers is not to pray; otherwise a team of properly trained parrots would serve as well as men for our experiment." He argued that this approach to prayer treats it "as if it were magic, or a machine—something that functions automatically"—an accusation unintentionally but prophetically aimed at STEP and the other well-meaning attempts to measure the effects of prayer. If Lewis is right, such attempts always end up trying to measure something more akin to magic than a real movement of God.

Ironically, STEP actually supports the Christian worldview. Our prayers are nothing at all like magical incantations. Our God bears no resemblance to a vending machine. The real scandal of the study is not that the prayed-for group did worse, but that the not-prayed-for group received just as much, if not more, of God's blessings. In other words, God seems to have granted favor without regard to either the quantity or even the quality of the prayers. By instinct, we might selfishly prefer that God give preferential treatment to those who are especially, deliberately, and correctly prayed for, but he seems to act otherwise.

True to his character, God appears inclined to heal and bless as many as possible. It is as if he can barely restrain himself—though he often does—from supernaturally intervening and disrupting the nature of the universe to care for those he loves, whether they acknowledge it or not. Did God answer the prayers of the study's official prayer teams? Yes. But more than that, he answered the prayers of the patients, of their friends and relatives, and perhaps even of those who may not have known they were praying.

Why Pray?
If this is true about our God, then a nagging question arises: "Why put so much effort into praying if God is already so generous?" This is another way of asking the real but unspoken question: "What is the minimum required of me to get my prayers answered?" Such questions expose the weakness of our modernist desire to know if prayer "works." In finding that God is in fact constantly answering prayers, we stumble upon the deeper and more disturbing reality that his answers often don't give us the where, when, or how that we originally sought.

Scripture attests to this reality. God, for example, answered Israel's prayers for release from Pharaoh's hand, but his answer—when it finally came—was unexpected, unpredictable, and anything but tame (as a generation left in the desert could attest). His answer to Israel's prayers for release from Caesar's grip proved even more unanticipated and, for many, simply unacceptable. Thus, it is no surprise that Jesus taught us to pray "thy will be done," as he himself prayed all the way through Gethsemane. In all this, we discover that our obsession with whether prayer works is the wrong question. We know prayer works. The real question is, are we prepared for God's answer?

Not surprisingly, those who were prepared for God's answer to Israel's cry for the Messiah were people who prayed. Anna the Prophetess, who spent the bulk of her life worshiping in the temple, was one of the first to recognize him. Lydia, who saw the truth of the gospel and opened the door to Philippi, was in the right place at the right time because she was praying. Thus, we pray not only because God answers our prayers. We also pray so that we might recognize and receive God's answer, know how to respond, and perhaps see God himself.

Most physicians believe in miracles, and in the cause-and-effect reality of their jobs. Miracles happen, but they happen to all because we are loved by God, whether we are in rebellion or not. What is left to physicians, and to us, is how we will respond. We would be wise to avoid magical or mechanical claims about the gospel. STEP encourages us to believe that God is eager to answer our prayers with seemingly little regard for our competence in prayer or, at times, even our orthodoxy. This ought to give us confidence to act, believe, and work alongside the good and generous King, who calls us to advance his kingdom, bring healing to the world, and pray.

Gregory Fung studied biochemistry at Harvard and is currently the Boston divisional director of InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. Christopher Fung is a pathologist and a member of LaSalle Street Church, Chicago. They are son and father, respectively.

Copyright © 2009 Christianity Today. Click for reprint information.


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Wake up, Pray! Go to work, Pray! Go home, Pray! Love, Pray! Eat, Pray! Live, Pray!

  

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ternary_star
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103. "strong sources. powerful."
In response to Reply # 91


  

          

  

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atruhead
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93. "this is literally how your brain functions"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

*believe something dumb*
*search for articles that confirm dumb thoughts*
*post articles thinking it's good conversation*
*fight to be dumb when backlash happens because an article agrees*

this has been the shtick for years

  

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Case_One
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95. "Do you have a spiritual life?"
In response to Reply # 93


          


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atruhead
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96. "I dont answer stupid questions"
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Case_One
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101. "You think that's a Stupid question. .. WOW"
In response to Reply # 96


          


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ternary_star
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105. "in relation to this topic, it sure is."
In response to Reply # 101


  

          

if prayer works, it should work on anyone, regardless of their spiritual proclivity.

otherwise, it's not more powerful than a placebo effect.

  

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Case_One
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106. "Nope. Sorry. That's never a stupid question. "
In response to Reply # 105


          

>if prayer works, it should work on anyone, regardless of
>their spiritual proclivity.
>
>otherwise, it's not more powerful than a placebo effect.

^^ You have no understanding of the question I asked and you have no understanding of the power of prayer and the purpose of prayer.

Sometimes it's alight to admit that you don't know something instead of just running off at the mouth and proving that you don't know.




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atruhead
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110. "a spiritual life has nothing to do with science. you sound dumb"
In response to Reply # 101
Tue Feb-28-17 08:38 AM by atruhead

  

          

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Case_One
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113. "I'm just asking you a personal question. Why is that hard for you?"
In response to Reply # 110


          

>.


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atruhead
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118. "Yes I have a spiritual life. how is that related to this post?"
In response to Reply # 113


  

          

go ahead, double down on whatever your point is so I can once again reaffirm you're slow

  

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ternary_star
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104. "yeah. it's not even fun to "debate" him."
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Case_One
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109. "Why do you need to debate?"
In response to Reply # 104


          


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ternary_star
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112. "because you talk shit."
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Case_One
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114. "Where are you located? "
In response to Reply # 112


          

Just asking, maybe we can get a drink and just chat without all of this background.
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lonesome_d
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97. "one from the Straight Dope vaults (2000)"
In response to Reply # 0


          

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1849/have-studies-proven-that-prayer-can-help-heal-the-sick

-------
so I'm in a band now:
album ---> http://greenwoodburns.bandcamp.com/releases
Soundcloud ---> http://soundcloud.com/greenwood-burns

my own stuff -->http://soundcloud.com/lonesomedstringband

avy by buckshot_defunct

  

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TheAlbionist
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116. "And here's the POINT."
In response to Reply # 97
Tue Feb-28-17 11:55 AM by TheAlbionist

  

          

"we have no good evidence of the effectiveness of intercessory prayer in which the person does not know he is being prayed for"

And there's the double-blind.

We know that placebos can work if the patient believes a treatment being introduced.

We know athletes with "Faith" (either religious or acute personal confidence) perform better and patients with "Faith" often recuperate better.

We know that placebos have no effect if the subject has no knowledge of them being administered.

We know that prayer acts in the same way as placebo - if the patient doesn't know they're being prayed for nothing happens.

It only takes a very small amount of logic to deduce that prayer is another form of placebo, it's a sugar pill that can be used to fool a brain into healing itself. It's not the prayer or the sugar pill and it's certainly not a God so egotistical that despite being omniscient and omnipotent He needs ASKING before helping His "children"; it's the brain.

_______________________________

))<>((
forever.

  

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Case_One
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117. "So how do you explain healing for babies when people pray?"
In response to Reply # 116


          

Tell me if the Baby understands a Placebo. Please do that.
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ternary_star
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119. "*sigh*"
In response to Reply # 117


  

          

do you understand how flawed it is to point to one undocumented case of magic as overarching proof for a theory?

i promise this would be easier for you if you had even a basic understanding of the scientific method.

  

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Case_One
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120. "Just say that you don't understand. "
In response to Reply # 119


          




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Case_One
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121. "Why does this bother some of y'all. "
In response to Reply # 120


          


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Wake up, Pray! Go to work, Pray! Go home, Pray! Love, Pray! Eat, Pray! Live, Pray!

  

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tariqhu
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122. "you confuse causation "
In response to Reply # 121


          

with coincidence. my son had heart surgery at 18 months. I didn't pray for his well being. he turned out fine.

I broke my collar bone a few years ago. didn't pray for it to heal, but it did.

healing is related to age and the technology available to help.

Y'all buy those labels, I was born supreme

  

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ternary_star
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123. "nope. someone else must have prayed for him."
In response to Reply # 122


  

          

about 29,000 children under the age of five die every day.

'cuz no one prayed for them

  

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Case_One
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124. "Like I said, just say you don't understand. "
In response to Reply # 123


          

>about 29,000 children under the age of five die every day.
>
>'cuz no one prayed for them
>

Who said that.


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Wake up, Pray! Go to work, Pray! Go home, Pray! Love, Pray! Eat, Pray! Live, Pray!

  

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ternary_star
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126. "you're right. help me understand."
In response to Reply # 124


  

          

Someone prays for healing and gets better. This proves the power of prayer.

Someone prays for healing and does not improve. This proves that:
A) They did not pray correctly
B) God was uninterested in helping them
C) There is no God and life is, at times, random

Someone does not pray for healing and improves. This proves that:
A) Someone else prayed for them
B) God chose them despite the lack of prayer
C) There is no God and life is, at times, random

  

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tariqhu
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128. "unblessed"
In response to Reply # 123


          

>about 29,000 children under the age of five die every day.
>
>'cuz no one prayed for them
>
>

and lowly favored

Y'all buy those labels, I was born supreme

  

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Case_One
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125. "Again, Tell Prayer (a Conversation with God) Bothers You?"
In response to Reply # 0


          


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Wake up, Pray! Go to work, Pray! Go home, Pray! Love, Pray! Eat, Pray! Live, Pray!

  

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atruhead
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127. "faith is a concept and a personal truth"
In response to Reply # 125


  

          

your article says nothing about how science proves that it works, other than "studies say"

here's another article where studies say religious believers are more depressed than others http://www.cbc.ca/newsblogs/yourcommunity/2013/09/religious-believers-more-depressed-than-atheists-study.html

more research: religious people are dumb, atheists are like psychopaths http://bigthink.com/paul-ratner/new-study-says-religious-people-are-less-smart-but-atheists-are-psychopaths-5

so yeah, the internet exists to help everyone's agenda thrive. if you cant wake people up without being ridiculous and small minded, you aren't good at your job

  

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theprofessional
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129. "there's a direct line from here to child abuse and murder"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

i know you're probably just looking to reinforce your faith with this, but you need to be *extremely* cautious about touting the healing power of prayer, especially as someone who people in your community may look to for guidance. america actually has an extensive and terrifying history with this sort of thing. there are numerous documented cases of faith-healing churches and communities-- parents who refused medical treatment for their children and relied on the power of prayer to heal them. unsurprisingly, the children in those communities have mortality rates that are substantially-- by an order of magnitude-- higher than the national average, mortality rates that are comparable to third-world countries where modern medical treatment is limited or not available.

there are so many stories (google a few, please) of children whose parents have relied on the healing power of prayer to treat them for simple ailments that modern medicine cured long ago. the children end up crippled or dead from stuff like diabetes. the parents end up convicted of child abuse, manslaughter, or negligent homicide by a court system that recognizes that relying on the healing power of prayer in the 21st century is immoral.

let me be as clear as i possibly can here. prayer has no special healing power. this is a statement of fact, not a test of your faith. there is power in positive thinking, there is power in relaxing the mind and body. but the notion that there is a supernatural healing power in prayer is dangerous. the graveyards are filled with children whose parents saw their excruciating pain and suffering-- and eventual death-- as a test of faith.

the good news is you don't need to cherry-pick newsmax articles or rely on personal anecdotes to find wonder in the world, because the number of people that science has healed is in the billions. vaccines, antibiotics, medicines, surgeries-- whether preventative or reactive-- there are very few people on the planet that science has not healed in some form. everyone here, everyone you know, religious or not, has a story of being healed by modern medicine-- from the mundane, like healing a broken arm or using fluoride toothpaste to prevent cavities, to the extraordinary, like a guy i used to work with, born deaf, whose hearing was healed by a cochlear implant.

there are very real miracles happening right now, in hospitals, clinics, and research facilities all over the world. there is healing power in thousands of years of evidence-based observation and experiment. people in biblical times relied on prayer and faith because they had little else. in the year 2017, for us to tout the same supernatural "cures" human beings were using 2,000 years ago is wildly unnecessary and very often dangerous.

"i smack clowns with nouns, punch herbs with verbs..."

  

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