This is right on:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/02/how-to-beat-trump/515736/?utm_source=twb

Coles notes:

-Occupy wallstreet type protests help Trump...they don't hurt him. He easily spins them to embolden his base.

-Protests MUST have a unified message. The BEST idea: Congress passing a law that demands the president overturn his tax returns. Call the law something....and chant the shit out of it.

-STAY ON MESSAGE. Groups like Greenpeace, BLM are included. But everyone agrees to stay on message and not hijack the protest for other agendas.

4 criteria for the validity and effectiveness of unifying message:

a) Could this demand be achievable by a law passed through congress?
b) Will people of various political persuasions support it?
c) Can I tweet it?

If so...great.

alternately (and most importantly)

d) Would I still be upset about this issue if Marco Rubio were president?

If so....take that shit somewhere else.

Again....the BEST example to start with is having congress pass a law enforcing the release of the president's taxes. Call it something catchy and police the protest. If participants want to stray from the message...they're not welcome. Trump would not be able to spin and benefit from an organized, united protest like this.

Anything else is useless and most likely counter-productive.

https://twitter.com/JuddLegum/status/828657243411341313


‏@JuddLegum

1. Hey Ladies! @davidfrum has some good advice about how to resist Trump effectively, unlike your silly protests

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He's advising how to run anti-Trump protests.

I'm not surprised that distinction has to made for you.

But by all means....focus on strawman 'mansplaining' arguments while Trump dismantles democracy. Which is why the activist left has been rendered useless by Trump's tactics.

Thing is....David Frum and feminists don't have to agree on feminist issues in order to cooperate in fighting Trump. By making this a pre-requisite....you divide everyone who is against Trump into smaller factions who aren't effective by themselves. I'm sure Trump would thank you for this.

Gotcha

LOL I see it is lost on you that a speech writer for George W Bush is not the best person to pick when seeking out advice to battle Trump.

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I don't need to agree with David Frum's view on George Bush. I need to agree with how he feels about Trump.

By making that a pre-requisite....you would only march with those whom you agree with everything on. Which results in a fragmented, non-unified and ineffective movement. How's it working out so far?

In regards to the women's march...I don't know what they're official motivation was. But if it was to stop Trump (I don't think it was)....then they need to unify with everybody else who wants to stop Trump in order to be effective.

For those who would refuse to march with Frum.....What's more important? Stopping Trump or idealogical purity at a march?

I hope this exchange helps to make the main point clearer. If we need to agree with Greenpeace issues, BLM issues, feminist issues, George bush's presidency.....then we will have no power. We'll be marching near each other but by ourselves. That was the problem with occupywallstreet.

We can find massive support for a law forcing Trump to release his taxes. Set aside any other differences....and actually CHANGE something.

>I don't need to agree with David Frum's view on George Bush.
>I need to agree with how he feels about Trump.

I never said you had to agree with Frum's view on Bush or how he feels about Trump. If you are going to stop Trump, you don't start with advice from the guy who wrote speeches for the President who is almost as bad as Trump. Try to set the bar higher.

>By making that a pre-requisite....you would only march with
>those whom you agree with everything on. Which results in a
>fragmented, non-unified and ineffective movement. How's it
>working out so far?

I never made it a pre-requisite, you created that straw-man. I said he is not the man you want to use. I thought the reason was obvious but since you missed it, I will spell it out. You, the left or anybody who wants to stop Trump, should get suggestions from a thousand people or more before they start with Frum.

>In regards to the women's march...I don't know what they're
>official motivation was. But if it was to stop Trump (I don't
>think it was)....then they need to unify with everybody else
>who wants to stop Trump in order to be effective.

You don't know what the motivation was for the march but you can say it's not effective unless they do it your way.

>For those who would refuse to march with Frum.....What's more
>important? Stopping Trump or idealogical purity at a march?

You get on that straw-man and beat it like a dead horse. Saying pick someone better, is not the same as refuse to march with or agree with the views and feelings of Frum

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Not by the perceived characteristics of who is saying them. If what David Frum was suggesting was written on a piece of paper locked up in a box....THEN one might refer to his other views to evaluate what he MIGHT have to say. But we don't have to do that here lol.

You're making an argument that is a logical fallacy called 'ad hominem'. You are criticizing the person, not the idea. You've made 3 responses and none of them actually address what he is saying. Why don't you express WHY his idea is wrong?

>Not by the perceived characteristics of who is saying them.
>If what David Frum was suggesting was written on a piece of
>paper locked up in a box....THEN one might refer to his other
>views to evaluate what he MIGHT have to say. But we don't
>have to do that here lol.

In other words we should stick our heads in the sand and ignore where the idea is coming from even if it's Trump. The con man has a history of lying, but his alternate facts and muslim ban idea deserve the proper thought and consideration ? The ideas of the alt right concerning Blacks and Jews is something we should value on it's own merit, despite the fact that it's coming from the alt right. Why stop there, you should start a thread where the NAACP uses the ideas of Milo Yiannopoulos.

>You're making an argument that is a logical fallacy called 'ad
>hominem'. You are criticizing the person, not the idea.
>You've made 3 responses and none of them actually address what
>he is saying. Why don't you express WHY his idea is wrong?
>
>

Your argument is solid and strong especially the part where you try to separate the person from the idea because you like the idea.

The idea is so ridiculous it's hard to believe you need help.

"The more conservative protests are, the more radical they are.
You want to scare Trump? Be orderly, polite, and visibly patriotic"

You really believe that will scare Trump and he is not going to spin it ?

"Carry the flag. Open with the Pledge of Allegiance. Close by singing the Star Spangled Banner"

This is the missing ingredient for a successful anti Trump movement jingoism.

"Don’t get sucked into the futile squabbling cul-de-sac of intersectionality and grievance politics. Look at this roster of speakers from the January 21 march. What is Angela Davis doing there? Where are the military women, the women police officers, the officeholders? If Planned Parenthood is on the stage, pro-life women should stand there, too. If you want somebody to speak for immigrants, invite somebody who’s in the country lawfully"

You don't know why that's wrong and you need me to tell you why ? You are serious ? Is Angela Davis in the country lawfully ? Maybe should could speak. Would he suggest this to tea party if they were protesting a President Clintion ?

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there's plenty of merit to the piece despite it coming from a tool.

>there's plenty of merit to the piece despite it coming from a
>tool.

Plenty of merit to Frum's piece ?

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I was lazy in saying this:

"I don't need to agree with David Frum's view on George Bush. I need to agree with how he feels about Trump."

Not specific enough. I don't even need to agree with how David Frum feels about Trump. Lots of people have different types of concerns and to different degrees about him.

ALL we have to agree on is that he should be forced to release his taxes. THAT is how protests become effective. Wherein David Frum, feminists, environmentalists, heck even George Bush himself can march together. (he could be convinced to.

Lurkmode and I can hold a placards and perform some call/response together if he promises to refrain from committing any logical fallacies while we're there.

'What do we want'
'Tax forms'
'when do we want them?'
'Denny is racist'

"hey man you promised....."

just do what you usually do and say the complete opposite of what you just said and pretend like you never did that 180

>I was lazy in saying this:
>
>"I don't need to agree with David Frum's view on George Bush.
>I need to agree with how he feels about Trump."
>
>Not specific enough. I don't even need to agree with how
>David Frum feels about Trump. Lots of people have different
>types of concerns and to different degrees about him.
>
>ALL we have to agree on is that he should be forced to release
>his taxes. THAT is how protests become effective. Wherein
>David Frum, feminists, environmentalists, heck even George
>Bush himself can march together. (he could be convinced to.
>
>Lurkmode and I can hold a placards and perform some
>call/response together if he promises to refrain from
>committing any logical fallacies while we're there.
>
>'What do we want'
>'Tax forms'
>'when do we want them?'
>'Denny is racist'
>
>"hey man you promised....."

More straw-man

You sound just like Frum

" But if you are building a movement to protect American democracy from the authoritarianism of the Trump administration, you should remember that the goal is to gain allies among people who would not normally agree with you. Just as the iconography of your protest should originate in the great American mainstream, the core demand of your movement should likewise be easy to explain and plausibly acceptable to that mainstream, stretching from Bernie voters to Romney donors.

Here are a few useful tests:

a) Could this demand be achieved by a law passed through Congress?

b) Can I imagine my Rush Limbaugh listening brother-in-law agreeing with it?

c) Can I tweet it?

If so … good.

Alternatively

d) Would I still be upset about this if Marco Rubio were president now?

https://twitter.com/JuddLegum/status/828657243411341313

This guy tells you why it's wrong

2. Instead of protesting, for example, you should hold a meeting and serve cake

3. Another piece of advice from Frump: only advocate for things that a centrist Republican can support.

4. That means no talk about things like abortion rights or climate change, sorry

5. Also, don't be angry ladies. Anger isn't allowed because it will upset the centrist Republicans

6. Frum recommends instead of protesting for things you believe in, you should demand Marco Rubio.

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Ever since you guessed correctly the election outcome you've become insufferable.
Bring back the drugged out-blood drinking-hoe wifing-whitesplaining-happy go lucky Denny.

http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
instagram:@3rdworldview
Blessed be the Lord /who believe any mess they read up on the message board

I thought it was me. Sheesh.
_______________________

***
I ain't lyin. This shit i'm making up is true...

WTF ?

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>Ever since you guessed correctly the election outcome you've
>become insufferable.
>Bring back the drugged out-blood drinking-hoe
>wifing-whitesplaining-happy go lucky Denny.

Goddamn!

Ninja came in lickin shots somethin
hilarious!

https://chriswind.bandcamp.com/track/massage

"You can take an African out of Africa, but you can't take Africa out of the African"
Afro-Americana/Afro-Caribbana/Afro-Latino unite. We are ALL Black!

It's about as silly as folks that were hung up thinking Obama wasn't born in the USA.

Releasing his taxes does absolutely nothing. It's not a law that he release them. I wish folks would just drop it.

"Get ready....for your blessing....."

The fuck is going to happen once they see his taxes?

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

_______________________

ppl smarter than you who actually are aware of what's going on are keeping track.

you just live your life.

on anything.




"Get ready....for your blessing....."

If you've given up....get out of the way.

and figured out that they had to play the game to win....and thus, here we are with Trump as prez.

Now, the anti-Trump camp is wasting countless hours and energy trying to play a game with the wrong tools. It's very exhausting and pointless and obviously not effective. Name ONE protest style tactic that's been employed that's made even a smidgen of difference.

Pressing him to release taxes is a waste of time.
Pressing him to let go of his business ventures is a waste of time.
etc. etc. etc.

http://time.com/4658633/impeach-donald-trump-congress/

"Examples of existing business arrangements that constitute violations of the foreign-emoluments clause include: China’s state-owned Industrial and Commercial Bank of China is the largest tenant in Trump Tower, and the state-owned Bank of China is a major lender to Trump. Trump’s business partner in Trump Tower Century City in Manila, Philippines is Century Properties, which is run by Jose Antonio, who was just named special envoy to the United States by the president of the Philippines. Further, many Trump Organization projects abroad require foreign government permits and approvals, which amount to substantial financial benefits that also constitute foreign emoluments."

gone ahead and accept that.....

Especially over taxes.

But if it makes folks FEEL better and have hope...I guess I shouldn't knock it....


"Get ready....for your blessing....."

but to me it's safe to assume they as a party or as individuals within it would want to be able to have the additional major dirt to turn on him if they need to down the road. it seems we're on the cusp of absolute impunity and mayhem and it's real interesting to see what they're opting to do.

and Saudi Arabia and his other conflicts of interest.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

I'm all for exposing shenanigans but I don't think this should be the #1 priority.

I think he gets voted out in 4 years due to his track record and tweet record.

I guess we could use it against him in the next election but I wouldn't be surprised if nothing came from it.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

compromised?


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

Unless he's doing something illegal (which the FBI or IRS would have caught already), releasing taxes will do nothing besides make him look bad for his reelection campaign.

_______________________________________

>releasing taxes will do nothing
>besides make him look bad for his reelection campaign.

<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->

Like, David Frum might be a really good tax attorney or real estate agent or an EMT or something. And he'd gain some useful perspective on the world that he helped fuck up the last time we gave him a powerful platform.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

How Protesters are protesting wrong. That award goes to David Brooks.

I'll share the takedown instead of the piece to save time.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/01/24/david_brooks_women_s_marches_column_not_good.html

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

Dear David Frum:

I appreciate your resistance and critical stand against Donald Trump and your own party. There are so few brave Republicans, so few principled Conservatives, who are willing to simply stand for what is right.

But David, don't you think it's funny how the cacophony of screaming, angry, voices

(alt-right, neo-nazi's, bring back coal
tired of the establishment, trade, Planned Parenthood,
fix the economy, Obamacare, build the wall,
Muslims, lock her up!, conspiracy theories,
Benghazi, gun ownership, abortion,
religious freedom, Mexico, taxes, on and on)

that showed up to support the Trump campaign were understood?

As you've noted in other venues, Trump supporters aren't all the same. And yet, it seems that a number of his supporters were engaging in a form of protest.

And as protestors, they were understood, ironically, by people like you who tried to explain to the country what made sense about Trump and his campaign, a campaign that many believed to be "crazy."

You (and all of the rest of us) managed to understand that mess. Some people even went so far as to say: "we should try to give these people what they are asking for and consider their FEELINGS." We were told that Trump protestors needed to be heard!

We managed to understand the "feelings" and "emotions" of irrational hatred and bigotry. We managed to understand the misinformation (Obama is a Muslim and Hillary kills babies) nonsense of Trump supporter logic, while also giving air time to Republican politicians and pundits and lawyers who had well-thought out reasons for supporting Trump's "movement."

The "story" was that people want jobs and want to be heard and feel left out. Time to shake things up! That's what the protestors' President-Whisperer said. And so did the Repubs, Dems, Bernie, the media etc etc etc.

That group of irrational and rational people screaming and pouting about many issues all at once, with so many emotions (!!!), was so effective that they have apparently elected a President and a Republican congress.

If I recall, the protestors were very impolite. Nor did all of the protestors hold "rational" and well thought out beliefs and positions based in truth, fact, or evidence. And some of the protestors have been the very definition of unpatriotic, including a now President who displays a troubling disregard for American values and the American rule of law....and reportedly has a thing for Russia.

There are many things we can understand and many ways to listen to our fellow citizens, if we try.

Sincerely,

JEyre

If I understand correctly, you're saying that fragmented voices and issues helped Trump win the election therefor fragmented voices and issues CAN be successful.

But Frum isn't trying to win an election. He's trying to impeach a president. And his argument is fragmented voices and issues will not impeach the president.

Before anyone else chimes in on this....if you don't think the republicans would ever impeach Trump under any circumstances....you haven't been following the news.

Cosigning this dumb shit.

Voting participation needs to rise dramatically. Everything else is just histrionics if people dont VOTE.

"hey, make this right mayne
stop at the light mayne,
my yester night thang got me hung off the night train "