Any God, gods

Be it scriptures, documented history, evolution

I'm just curious how people justify their beliefs.... FTR I believe in God, but I don't subscribe to any religion and I get why my arguments for the existence of an omnipresent one fail to inspire any change in atheist minds

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

the solar system functions and nothing can function by accident.

Things can be destroyed by accident but nothing can function by accident.

and who/what created the thing that created God

and so on and so on...

a beginning and end. This isn't necessarily true of a proposed Creator.

---
"People that need positivity around them all the time are weak individuals in my book" - @lilduval

The concept of God doesn't answer any question of creation. It just adds another layer of abstraction.

The big bang or the booting up of the simulation or whatever. Astrophysicists are about as sure of this as they can be about anything so abstract.

---
"People that need positivity around them all the time are weak individuals in my book" - @lilduval

WHAT A TIME TO BE ALIVE

I've been saying this since the 5th grade when we learned about the big bang theory.

A universe existed prior to ours.
It expanded like ours is doing now
It reached a point where in neither expanded or contracted
After that it begins to collapse
All matter collapses to a 1 dimensional point
This results in a violent explosion and a new universe begins to expand again.

Wash, rinse, repeat for eternity.

---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

I don't believe in the fundamentalist Creation story but I just don't how a planet like ours with being like us and the other creatures found here could possibly have come into fruition on its own. Even if there was a minute event that started this off, I just believe that there's a definite starting place for us.

I'm for using science to get there. I just don't think it's wise to say that this couldn't have been created. I don't know how expansive all of this is.

trying to convert, we'll all be able to move forward without the BS.

Both concepts are rooted in the unknown.
So neither is "Wrong" and neither is "Right" if ascribe to the notion I presented that neither needs to be justified by the individual.

"Get ready....for your blessing....."

at all

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

If you're on the internet railing against religion it most likely isn't because you don't have a horse in the race.

---
"People that need positivity around them all the time are weak individuals in my book" - @lilduval

especially in highlighting the inconsistencies of religion
and debunking the whole 'morality=god' mythology
thats not a belief, its a necessity
its a kin to standing ground in an on-going debate that has dismissed rational thinking
and attempts to extend this to e.g. the education system
its necessary work.
one thing this country needs more of is a science literate majority
so we arent *still* arguing things like the basic facts about evolution

its why im very appreciative of the work lucien greave's satanic temple does
its also why i embrace anti-theism
some of us do believe religion is dangerous and backward

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

---
"People that need positivity around them all the time are weak individuals in my book" - @lilduval

doesn't...and believers have not proof that it does..thus faith.

I'm not making an argument for either.

I hear you but thats really not the point here IMO

that I don't make any attempts at justifying my personal stance on things of that nature.

Not trying to derail the original poster's query. It's a very good one indeed.

... and a whole lot of confirmation bias at work in both camps. The same things that convince atheists convince the religious.

There are no true arguments. There can be no real resolution to the conversation in either direction. Believe or don't believe, just make sure whatever you believe, you act right to others no matter what they believe.

The thing that leans me toward atheism is that I see no active requirement for Gods, I can explain almost everything in the Universe without them... but I've never seen a magic bullet that tells me they *can't* exist, only that they don't *need* to.

_______________________________

))<>((
forever.

>> The same things that convince atheists convince the religious.


Either side requires faith in the somewhat «unknown», and I agree - act right no matter what stance you take

With that said, I think history's taught us that there's been more harm done to others by non-atheists, ironically / sadly enough

(For a good and loving God, that is).

If our creator is a good, loving, omniscient, omnipotent God, why would evil exist? Theists usually say that it's because the existence of evil is a consequence of something more important to Gods purposes such as mans free will. However these same theists usually believe in a perfected afterlife state such as heaven where no evil exists. This must mean humans either lack free will in heaven or are capable of evil-less free will. Either way, it's impossible to reconcile a benevolent God with arbitrary evil. This is the reason I personally can't believe in a good god.

If the moral limits shift then so does the definition of evil. But the being of God (Yahweh) never shifts. So the two are not mutual. God exist without evil, because evil is defined by human's context of morals. Evil cannot exist without human morals, but the existence of God is not dependent on humans.
.
.
.

And an example of a very simplistic view that assumes a deity must be all powerful.

Evil and a good, loving God are not mutually exclusive. A God could exist with significantly less power than most people assume it would wield, for example.

It also assumes that the only potential deities are those within our own mythologies.

Further, this stance assumes that the only sufficient answers to these questions a are those that we can deduce. The problem is that any being that would qualify as a deity would almost certainly have an entirely different perspective and understanding of a bigger picture at play, therefore there is the possibility that the reason for the existence of evil could be something we couldn't even comprehend with our human emotions and limitations.

LIkewise, a God that is all-powerful in all ways EXCEPT for being omniscient is also not incompatible, since such a God could have created the world while being ignorant of the consequences (such as evil).

However, a God that was both omniscient and omnipotent and was good would not create a world wherein evil by its own definition existed. To accept therefore that the creator of our universe might be a good, omniscient and omnipotent God is to say we don't know what evil is, and it might for example not even apply to the actions of child rapists. Such a position is possible, but stupid (and such a position is itself evil, i must add). If we are prepared to reject the very obvious truth that the existence of child rape is evil, in order to maintain the goodness of God, we are engaging in intellectual suicide.

like this (not verbatim, lol):

That the whole point of human existence is for all of us to find our way back to God, to realize that what he intends us to be, we already are. Pain, suffering and evil are just means to rush us to this understanding, to motivate us to go above the suffering and turmoil of human life and unite ourselves with the Divine, and by that eliminating our pain, eliminating all the evil.

To shake us out of our collective slumber and reclaim our divine birthrights.

That's INTENSE, of course. It makes more sense at times when life really hurts. But yeah that's how I've seen the idea of a loving God giving us evil and pain justified (with varying phrasing)

It seems a little unfair though. But I see how that arguments make the quest for God a much more urgent matter than how must of us might treat it, by the occasional prayer or meditation - all the while probably not staying bout it like that outside of church or the yoga mat.


>(For a good and loving God, that is).
>
>If our creator is a good, loving, omniscient, omnipotent God,
>why would evil exist? Theists usually say that it's because
>the existence of evil is a consequence of something more
>important to Gods purposes such as mans free will. However
>these same theists usually believe in a perfected afterlife
>state such as heaven where no evil exists. This must mean
>humans either lack free will in heaven or are capable of
>evil-less free will. Either way, it's impossible to reconcile
>a benevolent God with arbitrary evil. This is the reason I
>personally can't believe in a good god.
>
>

But this is simply a belief:

>That the whole point of human existence is for all of us to
>find our way back to God, to realize that what he intends us
>to be, we already are. Pain, suffering and evil are just means
>to rush us to this understanding, to motivate us to go above
>the suffering and turmoil of human life and unite ourselves
>with the Divine, and by that eliminating our pain, eliminating
>all the evil.

Then what of those that never 'find their way back'? I think this belief is short sighted and a simplistic way for man to rationalize something they can't grasp. Human nature is erroneous and given lives without boundary, we'd swiftly delve into self destruction. I think some of the philosophies and rules that have developed over time were instituted to limit (or at least slow) man's self destructive nature. While it's admirable to aspire to a "Godly" lifestyle, it doesn't guarantee a prolong life on Earth nor does it stave off death.

Given any Deity, humans must be like infant children, slowly and gradually learning where we need to be in the grand context of existence. For example; sometimes it takes for a parent to let a child touch the outside of a hot oven for them to understand that they shouldn't do it. You can tell them 50-11 times but they need to know out of curiosity. Humans needed to see the consequences of certain things in order for certain rules to be put in place (hence the bible and it's influences on societal structure/beliefs).

This is what builds our moral compass in many instances.

>To shake us out of our collective slumber and reclaim our
>divine birthrights.
>
>That's INTENSE, of course. It makes more sense at times when
>life really hurts. But yeah that's how I've seen the idea of a
>loving God giving us evil and pain justified (with varying
>phrasing)
>
>It seems a little unfair though. But I see how that arguments
>make the quest for God a much more urgent matter than how must
>of us might treat it, by the occasional prayer or meditation -
>all the while probably not staying bout it like that outside
>of church or the yoga mat.

I think it's naïve for any human to speak for the intent of God/a God. How could one possibly fathom the grand scheme from that level of comprehension when our universal scope is so miniscule and limited?

I believe all religion is a tool designed to structure humanity. It teaches rules, limits, consequence and keeps most of us inline with a promise of a better tomorrow. Kinda like how I tell my kids, "Clean your room and be nice to your siblings or you won't get dessert." But they can still earn dessert the NEXT day if they follow the rules. The Bible/any religious text isn't exhaustive and cannot speak to the intent will or grand design of existence.

It could all be for naught for all we know. We could just 'exist' and in the end, there aren't any consequences and we just 'start over'.

I believe there is a creator and I believe there was purpose in the creation. I just don't think anyone who's ever been on Earth outside of the first of our species (and even then, maybe not even them) has any significant insight on that purpose.

In the end, I think people just need to do what feels right to them and hope that it pays off once we learn where we go after this life.

Hell and Heaven both seem a lil far fetched. I think the ride continues and perception is what will guide it...kinda like life on Earth.

Eh...just my lunchtime rant. lol

____________

I respect your rationality and your arguments are sober.

I'm not pro or against any of the sentiments here tbh, but this is where the dialogue gets complicated/a little uncomfortable to me. All I can advocate for is experiences I've had in meditation, and all of it is intuitive and are subject to enormous skepticism, of course.

And those experiences actually do clear up a lot of the confusion and uncertainty regarding these lofty concepts.... But they are highly personal and cant by any means be documented. But the understanding and the insight that occurs during these.... (for now) fleeting and tiny moments are actually very simple.

I actually do believe that there are people on this earth now and before, who've had personal relationships with God that are very real. And not in a go to church and serve God kinda way, but actually are able to experience God contact. But thats again, like you pointed out, only a belief. And I choose to believe what these people speak of, because I BELIEVE in God, myself.

Autobiography of a Yogi by Paramhansa Yogananda is an example. Again, most of what's there is hard to believe. But I cant for the life of me picturing these people being disillusioned or just making stuff up to advocate an agenda that they dont have anything to gain from.

I also think the eastern regions of the world have a more humble and loving concept of this than a lot of us here in the west, and in the USA, where there is so much to be gained from advocating for a particular faith ($$$$$).

I do agree with you tho, and salute your rational views on this subject. To the point and not in your feelings, lol

they've already found God but they still suffer a long, painful death.

btw, about 10 million children die each year, most from preventable causes and almost all in poor countries.

We have no indication that this force applies outside of the universe and if it was created specifically within and for this universe it wouldn't apply to a Creator that predates it right?

---
"People that need positivity around them all the time are weak individuals in my book" - @lilduval

Believing in God makes the assumption that WE are somehow supposed to be stewards of this world...

God/s, religion only come into existence when Homo Sapiens begin to conquer their surroundings...

We've barely been on this planet (especially near the top of the chain) compared to dinosaurs that came before us yet we somehow think we are ordained or some shit by anthropomorphizing the universe.

Double 0
DJ/Producer/Artist
Producer in Kidz In The Hall
-------------------------------------------
twitter: @godouble0
IG: @godouble0
www.thinklikearapper.com

-----
No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public. (c) HL Mencken or some other motherfucker.

_______________________________________

Because it's very commonly said by people who don't understand evolution at all. Like dumb-ass Katt Williams.

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

http://i.imgur.com/ravrlPw.gif

_______________________________________

There are arguments for speculation of evolution within a species, but has anyone seen the process played out?

And a virus mutation is not evolution. Just so that you know.
.
.
.

A Christian coming in here with this seeing is believing shit. LMAFO.

We've seen evidence of evolution through the fossil record. You ever see a nigga walk on water or turn water to wine? You saw a flaming bush talk to a nigga?

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

fossil record are not evidence of evolution silly.


.
.
.

So... when have you seen God, homie?
You gonna ignore that? You gonna ignore the hypocrisy of a Christian asking for visual evidence of ANYTHING?

While you're over here asking dumb-ass questions about a process that takes place of the course of thousands of years.

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

When have you seen a burning bush talk to someone, Rev?
When have you seen a 900 year old man, Rev?

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

Could be an FM fucking radio station.

i still blame hip-hop.

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

.
.
.

i still blame hip-hop.

as a topic of conversation is reserved for Mensa?

---
"People that need positivity around them all the time are weak individuals in my book" - @lilduval

>fossil record are not evidence of evolution silly.

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

>>fossil record are not evidence of evolution silly.
>
>

****
pink toes: http://i.imgur.com/WN7DPL1

http://listverse.com/2011/11/19/8-examples-of-evolution-in-action/

y'all really need to give up the evolution argument. it's done. and belief in a creator and biological evolution aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

or pretend he can refute it.

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

Yeah, I check before I jumped in. The Who article is still based on speculation. NO ONE HAS SEEN Evolution take place accept for the E. coli reference.

But I never said that evolution can't take place, I just asked the questions has anyone observed it taking place. The E. coli example is about the only real controlled experiment for a reference of evolution.

So, save the drama for your ride home.

.
.
.

no...no one's ever seen Jeff Goldblum changing into a human fly. But every example listed on that link is blatant, obvious evolution happening in observable time periods.

the moth example is such a crystal clear example of textbook Darwinism...if you have beef with that one, I'm not sure you're open to facts.

Hey. There are many theories and opinions. You should write yours and get it published.


.
.
.

there's no room for opinion or interpretation. your view of evolution is wrong.

again, not sure why your view of God is even threatened by evolution. Just imagine that God is the one who's guiding the changes.

I guess we can all go home now that you've declared that there is no other opinion..


.
.
.

why can't it be guided by the hand of god?

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-extraordinary-evolution-of-cichlid-fishes/

It happens quite frequently actually.

You could do the experiment yourself with a colony of staphylococcus bacteria on an agar plate and some antibiotic wafers. You wont, because its more conforting to pretend its not real. But you could.

WHAT A TIME TO BE ALIVE

I never said it hadn't. But you said "It happens quite frequently actually." I don't think a credible scientist would say "Evolution happens quite frequently actually."

Well who frequent does it happen? Do tell.
.
.
.

evolution isn't like a magic trick where something is a bird one minute and *poof* now it's a rabbit. it's a process that never ends.

as the environment changes, so changes the life that inhabits it.

99% of all life that has ever existed is extinct. the life that is left...the "winners" are here for a reason - they have been granted the most evolutionarily successful genes.

your understanding of what evolution is and how it works is fundamentally flawed. and, again, if you understood it, i think you would see how it's not necessarily counter to the idea of a creator.

but just wildly flailing against an easily provable and documented scientific fact makes you look like an idiot.

Our existence is a momentary speck in the timeline of this planet. Considering that, yes, evolution does happen frequently because even if it takes thousands of years to happen, those thousands of years across hundreds of thousands of species means it's happening "frequently" on a planetary scale.

You're thinking from a human perspective, you gotta think bigger than that.

---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

I don't think a credible scientist would
>say "Evolution happens quite frequently actual

WHAT A TIME TO BE ALIVE

>I never said it hadn't. But you said "It happens quite
>frequently actually." I don't think a credible scientist would
>say "Evolution happens quite frequently actually."
>
>Well who frequent does it happen? Do tell.
>.
>.
>.

>I don't think

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

Every single generation shifts a species genome slightly, either consolidating the good, losing the bad or adding the better.

You're playing yourself BADLY in this thread, dude... you should have nothing to fear from evolution. It speaks nothing about your God, only that if He is responsible for all this, He had a process.

Surely you'd want Him to be organised enough to have had a process?

_______________________________

))<>((
forever.

It's even been witnessed in human populations.

Go to the Himalayas and Sherpas, who've lived in isolation for a decent period of time, have different blood vessel make-ups to deal with low oxygen environments. They don't get altitude sickness.

We've witnessed new species of plant, microbe and even some more complex animals appear first hand.

Also, don't make the rookie mistake of thinking "mutation" is not part of evolutionary process. Random mutation is how changes happen when you don't have a designer involved - most mutations are lost within a generation as they turn out to be disadvantages. The lucky few mutants who outperform their peers are the "evolved".

Here's some examples of evolution recently witnessed in the natural world:

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/science-sushi/evolution-watching-speciation-occur-observations/

_______________________________

))<>((
forever.

Most if not all theology/religion is coded astrology & astronomy
Also known as astrotheology

If you do the etymology on the language used in the bible & other religious books, you can trace a gang of it to the roots of astrology

Not only is it in religion but also the zodiac, mythology, fairytales & certain nursey rhymes
These are mostly allegories to explain Earth & its relation to the planets & stars, especially the Sun

Symbolism that God is the Sun is found not only in literature but also in illustrations, paintings, sculptures, architecture etc

So yes, God does exist

Im from Texas and I say fly shit.

The astrology aspect is something I've been getting more into recently too

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWNBz6HZTgs

patterns in nature

everything is in a balance and connected

how in the fuck does a god even begin to interface with that?

if you want o say "well god is above and beyond, the alpha and the omega" then Im going to shut down

***********************************************************
https://soundcloud.com/swageyph/yph-die-with-me

And shut down all you want, but you can't ask someone to make an argument on the other side and then tell them the parameters you prefer. I can't think of a major religion that doesn't have God as a separate, divine, superior Creator.

---
"People that need positivity around them all the time are weak individuals in my book" - @lilduval

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

WHAT A TIME TO BE ALIVE

answers...


... meanwhile, I walk up with a spray bottle and a flashlight and make a rainbow on my own.

---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

And you leave it the same way. Where there is light there is life.

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

NOTE: this does not mean it's equally rational to believe any one specific supernatural framework as it is to disbelieve it. The point is, by definition, there is no evidence for ANY such framework. None of them should be believed.

to atheists vs believers?

---
"People that need positivity around them all the time are weak individuals in my book" - @lilduval

as opposed to 'believe in the negation.'

I take atheist to mean 'not theist.' That is, I don't believe in God, or any particular supernatural scenario. I can't claim to be able to show that God does not exist. However I'd note that 'God' is just one of an infinite set of mutually incompatible supernatural scenarios, none of which can be justified. It therefore seems pointless to give special treatment to any one in particular.

Some would call this agnosticism. I would call agnosticism a kind of atheism. They're slippery words.

God is beyond man's ability to understand.

the stories, all of them, are versions of fables.

no holy book is the word of God.

The same people who outright dismiss the claim of a universal creator in line with a deist definition of God will entertain possibilities of our single cell organism ancestors being placed on earth by intelligent aliens who knew how it would turn out (so, intelligent design?) and even the possibility that we live in a computer simulation.

That wasn't a joke. People who mock any and all religion believe a far more complex society has created us to learn from us. People believe what they want to believe.

---
"People that need positivity around them all the time are weak individuals in my book" - @lilduval

believing in an all-powerful *thing* that made everything that ever existed (but was, in turn, created by....what, exactly?) is a bit harder

The other is not

WHAT A TIME TO BE ALIVE

>even the possibility
>that we live in a computer simulation.

*sound farfetched
but its in line with disbelieving that we are the only sentient beings in this or other galaxies

either way, i prefer the explanation given in the hitch-hikers guide to the galaxy

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

j/k

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

*instead of the other way round typical in the sciences

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.