Possibly unbeknownst to prince?

Dude on the 911 recording was the specialist's son, who had just arrived

And a leak from the report says percocet was found

PRINCE
http://m.startribune.com/addiction-doctor-was-to-have-seen-prince-just-before-his-death/378051471/

Prince died amid frantic plans for drug addiction treatment

Balloons, flowers and other mementos were attached to the fence and trees surrounding Paisley Park in Chanhassen in honor of the memory of Prince.Balloons, flowers and other mementos were attached to the fence and trees surrounding Paisley Park in Chanhassen in honor of the memory of Prince.
Carlos Gonzalez, Star Tribune
By DAVID CHANEN , STAR TRIBUNE
May 04, 2016 - 3:29 PM

254
Prince was found dead one day before he was scheduled to meet with a California doctor in an attempt to kick an addiction to painkillers, an attorney with knowledge of the death investigation said Tuesday.

Dr. Howard Kornfeld, a national authority on opioid addiction treatment, was called by Prince representatives the night of April 20 because Prince “was dealing with a grave medical emergency,” said William Mauzy, a prominent Minneapolis attorney working with the Kornfeld family.

Kornfeld, who runs Recovery Without Walls in Mill Valley, Calif., could not clear his schedule to meet with Prince the next day, April 21, but he planned to fly out the following day.

So he sent his son, Andrew Kornfeld, who works with him, to Minnesota, with plans for him to go to Paisley Park to explain how the confidential treatment would work, Mauzy said.

“The plan was to quickly evaluate his health and devise a treatment plan,” Mauzy said, speaking on behalf of the Kornfelds. “… The doctor was planning on a lifesaving mission.”

The Current arranges Prince song simulcast in US for 5:07 p.m.
As Jehovah Witness, Prince's 'beliefs were very, very strong'

Several other sources with direct knowledge of the investigation confirmed Mauzy’s account. Calls and e-mails to the Kornfelds were not returned Tuesday evening.

Andrew Kornfeld was expected to meet with Prince early Thursday after taking a red-eye flight from San Francisco the night Prince’s representatives called, Mauzy said.


When Andrew Kornfeld arrived at Paisley Park at 9:30 a.m. Thursday, Prince’s representatives could not find him, Mauzy said. Andrew Kornfeld was one of three people at Paisley Park when the musician’s body was found in an elevator a few minutes later — and it was Andrew Kornfeld who called 911.

Mauzy said that Andrew Kornfeld told him that the others “screamed” when they found Prince and “were in too much shock” to call 911.

Unfamiliar with Paisley Park, Andrew Kornfeld simply told the dispatcher, “We’re at Prince’s house.”

Asked again to give an address, he said simply: “The people are just distraught. … We’re in Minneapolis, Minnesota, and we are at the home of Prince.”

Emergency responders arrived within five minutes. Prince was pronounced dead at 10:07 a.m., 19 minutes after responders arrived.

Authorities said Prince was alone when his body was found. Foul play and suicide are not suspected. Autopsy results, which will include toxicology tests, are pending.

Within days of Prince’s death, sources told the Star Tribune that his use of painkillers, which were found at the scene, had become the focus of the investigation. As part of their probe, investigators are trying to determine where Prince got the pills and who provided them.

While authorities have characterized their work as a criminal investigation, that doesn’t mean that it will result in charges.

After he was first contacted by Prince’s representatives, Howard Kornfeld requested that a Twin Cities physician check on Prince and stabilize him, sources said.


It was hoped that Prince would agree to go to California for long-term care under Kornfeld’s supervision, which would include round-the-clock nursing support, Mauzy said.

Prince’s representatives called Howard Kornfeld because of his reputation as a nationally known addiction researcher, Mauzy said.

According to Howard Kornfeld’s business website, Recovery Without Walls is a “personalized outpatient clinic, specializing in innovative, evidence-based medical treatment for chronic pain and drug and alcohol addiction.” It says that the clinic’s medical team “works together to resolve problems that other clinicians have found difficult, if not impossible to solve.”

Howard Kornfeld also is known as an advocate for the expanded use of Suboxone, which contains buprenorphine and curbs opioid cravings. The drug has been underutilized, in part, because many doctors haven’t completed the federal training that is necessary to prescribe it.

Andrew Kornfeld had a small amount of buprenorphine to give to Prince. However, it was never administered, Mauzy said.

He added that Andrew Kornfeld gave the medication to Carver County investigators, who later interviewed him and the two others — whom Mauzy identified only as Prince staffers — who were at Paisley Park when the body was found.

Six days before Prince was found dead, his private plane was returning to Minneapolis after two concerts in Atlanta when it made an emergency landing in Moline, Ill. Sources with direct knowledge of the investigation have said that the landing occurred because Prince was overdosing on opioids.

Prince’s bodyguard carried him to waiting paramedics at the airport and he was given a shot of the opioid antidote Narcan. He was taken to a hospital, but left within a few hours against medical advice.

Carver County Chief Deputy Jason Kamerud declined to comment Tuesday about the investigation.

Tyka Nelson, Prince’s sister, who in recent days has led the appointment of a special administrator to oversee his estate, also declined to discuss her brother’s death Tuesday.

“I have nothing to say,” she said.

)))--####---###--(((

bunda
<-.-> ^_^ \^0^/
get busy living, or get busy dying.

If you post to it, it doesn't move to the top of the list

****
pink toes: http://i.imgur.com/WN7DPL1

Mike weighed 65 pounds and needed horse tranq's to go to sleep every nite

)))--####---###--(((

bunda
<-.-> ^_^ \^0^/
get busy living, or get busy dying.

What else we don't know
Did anybody know Cosby was sliding chicks Roofies and Quaaludes?
Marv Albert was such a freak?
Tiger was gettin it in like the true animal he is?

****
pink toes: http://i.imgur.com/WN7DPL1

Could be a crank call... could be some other crazy shit

But... it could be real, too.

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

trying to escape from pain.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

Prince even moreso because he wasn't dragged through the public via court cases.

Sinead Oconnor talkin bout Prince and Eddie used to freebase then run trains on Arsenio so...

Just waiting for the chips to lay where they may be.

****
pink toes: http://i.imgur.com/WN7DPL1

if you want to gossip just gossip. shit might turn out to be true and you can feel high and mighty. just leave the RIP out of it.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

talking to him as he became possessed.


>Prince even moreso because he wasn't dragged through the
>public via court cases.
>
>Sinead Oconnor talkin bout Prince and Eddie used to freebase
>then run trains on Arsenio so...
>
>Just waiting for the chips to lay where they may be.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

“So back we go to these questions — friendship, character… ethics.”

___________________________________________________________


DJTB YOMM

that he was in so much pain

just.sad

to give so much joy and..

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

It's a psychological addiction. Completely different from opiates. If you do coke or crack daily for years? Yes...there will be some physical withdrawals....but they aren't severe and will be over in a few days. Opiate withdrawal is a war of attrition that lasts weeks/months. And no one should think less of ANYBODY if they can't conquer it because getting off opiates is one of the hardest things anybody can do.

I guess I get the sense that people think it's more respectful to say that a person died trying to escape their pain rather than dying because they couldn't stop doing drugs. The fact is....getting off opiates is 90% likely to be MORE painful than whatever it was initially prescribed for. We are over-prescribing this shit. The amount of percocets it takes to kill you? That should be only for death-bed type care. Not for a sore hip.

it's the same thing that drives most people to opiates.
think about it.

i know you're on a mission to help us appreciate the difficulties of drug addiction. but all the things that we can do to help prevent people from drug addiction ain't going to mean much if we don't address the pains life often dishes up.

*typed currently in a lot of pain*

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

Pain from bad memories...pain from alienation/loneliness....pain from low self-esteem. Than yah.

But no one OD's on opiates because they have a sore hip. And I AM on a mission to dispel that because it dehumanizes all the everyday addicts on the street and somehow says MJ/Prince are different from them when they are not. People did the same thing with Cobain and his stomach. We should sympathize with all addicts...not just the ones who made music we like.

understand where you're coming from. i don't know if you've ever experienced life debilitating pain, which is of course relative to the person. when your physical ability to do what you were once able to do is not just taken away from you but replaced with ceaseless pain, it can lead to all of those other places that you're discussing. shit is a fucking bitch amd you can't just say, 'hip pain...please'

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

c/o Duff McKagan.

The withdrawal from the meds makes the pain more acute.

Duff has some very insightful things to say about this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6H7Js5Oi3n0

Whole thing is good...but skip to 3:20.

Far as I know, pimp c, Amy winehouse, bobbi Christina did not get prescribed anything by a doc that later got abused

Even tho im sure theres psychological pain in many of those cases










Actually ehh,whatever. Tragic all around. I kinda bet if MJ or prince was married theyd still be here

)))--####---###--(((

bunda
<-.-> ^_^ \^0^/
get busy living, or get busy dying.

ODs are usually the result of either mixed reactions from other drugs/alcohol

or liver failure, as percs are 80% acetaminophen

I've heard this counter point IRT to this Prince headline from a couple of Drs

but it hasn't stopped the alleged and unconfirmed reporting

I think the autopsy/toxicology reports will have the final word

base, you don't OD on percs, you die from mixing percs with other drugs.

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

I don't like that AIDS or your argument
remove percs from Prince system of equations and he'd still be here.

Remove AIDS and a person wouldn't die from a common cold

ingesting all those percs was the catalyst for his demise so that's why "the media" says he died from percs

****
pink toes: http://i.imgur.com/WN7DPL1

as with Aids, the opioid epidemic is being stigmatized

Aids was first perceived as some gay phantom boogie man disease

after awareness was raised, research conducted, etc...

the survival rates have increased over time

same with prescription opioids

we can raise awareness about drug effects and interactions that will save lives

fatalities are more prevelant when combined with alcohol and other sedatives (benzos)

removing acetaminophen from the pill

and making naloxone available

= lives saved

the media has reported the 'overdose' as the alleged cause of death for about 2 weeks now

which hasn't been confirmed by any science yet

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

WE need to shift our focus to making drug use safer rather than moralizing and 'just say no' type of campaigns. Unfortunately, this is often seen as enabling or encouraging drug use. It's similar to the issue of telling kids about birth control.

A perc has 5mg of oxycodone. There are users who do up to 1000mg at a time. You're stomach can't even hold the amount of percs it would take to overdose on the oxycodone part of the pill (if you're a user which by all accounts, Prince WAS).

I mean....I know Prince was somewhat secluded....but it just seems weird to me that he would do percocets. It's the equivalent of finding out Axl Rose drank himself to death with peachsnaps or moonshine. Why would a rich person to percs? Even at the diviest dive bar that I used to frequent....fiends be like 'Damn...all I can find today is percs'. But maybe Prince wasn't part of a drug scene or kept it private and just didn't know he wasn't getting the pure stuff.

If he was taking Oxycontin instead of percs....chances are he'd still be here. The lesson should be....if you're out of control with your oxycodone use....You HAVE to switch to pure oxycodone (in the form of oxycontin) for the sake of your liver. The high will be better and you will be safer. So it's not a 'will-power' issue. It's an education issue. Sadly...this death was most likely avoidable without even addressing any addiction issue Prince had.

It's like this....if someone I cared about was doing 50 percs a day. The FIRST thing I'd do is introduce them to oxycontin....before trying to deal with ANY of the underlying addiction. So you can replace those 50 percs with 3 oxycontin tablets and that person will get the same high (it'll actually be even better). Once their drug routine is made safer.....THEN you can talk about the steps needed for getting clean.

So the idea is that there are legitimate users of opiates and illegitimate users of opiates.

So getting molested as a child and the memories involved with that aren't a legitimate reason to take opiates. Whereas...a bad back is.

I guess the problem I have with that distinction is that it's a denial of the so-called illegitimate user's problems. Noone sets out to be a junky. But all junkies are self-medicating SOMETHING. If they weren't....they wouldn't have a problem. I also worry that these distinctions can be classist. I'm not accusing you of that...but do you know what I mean by the tone of it? It's like we don't want to be categorized with the street junkies so we call our reasons legitimate.

Again, not directly accusing you of this....but it almost comes off like a distinction of 'fault'. That it wasn't prince's fault. Which implies that is WAS chris Farley's fault. That really seems to be the whole basis and motivation behind this distinction. But really, what's the point? Because the end result is the same.

>I guess I get the sense that people think it's more respectful
>to say that a person died trying to escape their pain rather
>than dying because they couldn't stop doing drugs.

fact of the matter was this was poorly managed chronic pain -whether its self-medication or addiction stemming from a prescription
id rather we spend time talking about how we (mis)manage chronic pain in the medical field
(and in addition the influence/role of pharma industries in this)
than try to make this out as being a story about addiction.
its not. there are plenty of those if we need them
it would be very different if prince was known for doing drugs.
then we could all lean back and say tragic, but...
this situation is not it

and its a bit... hindsight thinking here, to think that someone taking opiates is thinking about the withdrawals instead of the here and now
so, no need to be dismissive about what someone;s level of pain was.

(and again, this is the saddest part for me in this whole scenario
chronic pain isnt easy living)

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

>and its a bit... hindsight thinking here, to think that
>someone taking opiates is thinking about the withdrawals
>instead of the here and now

There's a distinction between physical withdrawl symptomatic of drug use and physical withdrawl that brings back the pain you already had. When you just want the physical pain to stop in the moment you aren't really thinking about the effects of the drugs beyond easing the pain.

>so, no need to be dismissive about what someone;s level of
>pain was.

I think it's funny how acceptable it is at late stages in life for people to say you know what i can't deal with this pain anymore and just clock out. That's barely understood as suicide. But when that type of pain comes early in life and you've been diagnosed to have to deal with it for the rest of your life... people just don't know.

I didn't know until I got that diagnosis. I'm doing everything I can at this point to not deal with it via perscriptions because I know where that road leads. But in the moment, you're suffering and one pill can ease that, ven for just a bit. HAs nothing to do with the drug and everything to do with the pain.

I'll conceded to Denny that there are parallels to general addictive behavior, but you just can't group them together and pretend that the person in physical pain isn't dealing with something that is completely different.

>(and again, this is the saddest part for me in this whole
>scenario
>chronic pain isnt easy living)

It sucks for real. Just the physical aspect of it, never mind the number it does on you psychologically and emotionally.


█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

>id rather we spend time talking about how we (mis)manage
>chronic pain in the medical field

mismanaged & botched medical care is like a Top 5 leading cause of death in this country.
you have any idea how many times sponges and gauze get left inside peoples cavities and sewn back up inside of them

google: textiloma

that's making me quite a bit of bread right now

****
pink toes: http://i.imgur.com/WN7DPL1

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

He wouldn't be prescribed enough opiates to die from. His prescribed dosage wouldn't be that high. That's what leads me to think this is primarily an addiction issue.

People who use pain meds WITHOUT getting addicted don't typically OD or die from using them because they take the prescribed amount. For him to die? He almost HAS to be cheating. And cheating to an EXTREME extent.

And then...if one argues that maybe the pain was 'so great' that he NEEDED to do an amount that could also kill him via overdose? Well...then obviously that prescription is not a viable form of treatment. Again, people who take prescribed drugs for pain without falling into addiction don't die from them.

Look....chances are he was taking more than ten times the prescribed dose and probably even more. He had been given a save-shot of Narcan just days before. This scenario doesn't just suggest addiction...it screams it. That, of course, is not meant to be disrespectful because I work with a basic premise that drug addicts are not immoral or 'at fault' for their addictions in the first place. I sense that the reluctance to treat this as an addiction issue (they called an addiction specialist shortly before he died!) seems more an indication that one doesn't really respect drug addicts....and doesn't want to categorize someone they care about with them.

you're talking about doses and how much you take as an indication of how addicted you are. not once talking about the pain that gets you to that point. in fact you want to push that to the side because it fits better with the addiction story if we ignore the fact that he could have been in tears with pain as he popped them pills not just because he was addicted but because he was in a pain that simply was not easing.

none of us know shit about what really happened, and even after we get the reports on toxicology we won't know what was happening at the moment. but denying pain as a possible root. is absurd.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

depending on how we;re using that word.

But imo, 99% of the time someone who overdoses on prescription meds does so because of addiction that entails from taking them. Not because of the original source pain. You might begin taking the drugs because of the pain. But you don't OD on them because of that. You OD on them because of abuse and the addiction spiral.

>But imo,

You forgot the h.

>99% of the time someone who overdoses on prescription
>meds does so because of addiction that entails from taking
>them. Not because of the original source pain. You might
>begin taking the drugs because of the pain. But you don't OD
>on them because of that. You OD on them because of abuse and
>the addiction spiral.

This is just your rationalization for it because it fits in line with your narrative. Mine is completely different. The addiction is secondary to the immediate pain in the here and now. Calling it the original source pain is dismissive of the fact that the pain exists in the here and now. And I'm talking about physical pain now so you don't have to agree with me. You can flip it and say I'm being dismissive of the addiction. Physical pain that existed before any addiction. Which addiction didn't solve but perhaps only made worse. Physical pain in the moment can fuck you up in the here and now more than any pattern of behavior. You don't give a fuck about what's an opiate and how much each pill is you just want that pain to fucking stop. Whether you've created a pattern of behavior around this which can be seen as addictive doesn't mean shit to that pain. But again you're denying that pain and saying it disappeared once you took that drug and became dependent on it.

You don't have to agree with me, but like you'd probably never wish me caught in the cyles of addiction, i'd never wish you endure that type of pain. Becuase it's real.

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

They called a news conference to say that the son brought drugs to help Prince with his addiction, but did not administer them. He said he planned on giving them to a local doc to administer. I call BS. He gave those pills to Prince. It was probably something to taper, but they overestimated his habits, and he OD'd on that shit.

about how quick the doctor's son got a lawyer and tried to get his story together... which still doesn't make much sense.

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

I'll be interested to see if any of the drugs in Prince's system match what is in this boys backpack and if this Cali doc wrote Prince a prescription without even meeting him or knowing what other conflicting medication he was on.

Here's some shit that don't add up to me.

1. Prince almost died from a OD a few days before and did not get proper medical treatment at all... but this addiction doctor and his son are called in for a "life saving mission" but some how don't think a "life saving mission" requires a licensed, practicing medical doctor. Any old body will do.

2. Why would the son, with no medical training, bring drugs from California to Minnesota if he didn't plan to administer them himself. Beside that, if it's as this dude claims, that he was going to get another local doctor to administer the medicine, why couldn't that same local doctor write the prescription and treat Prince until his father, an actual doctor, could come to Minnesota? There are pharmacies all over Minnesota that fill scrips for Suboxone. Anyone with sense knows you can't transport them shits over state lines. DEA don't play that.

3. The son's story is he arrived for his appt with Prince at 9:30am but no one knew where Prince was. So the staff started looking for him. But this dude, who has never been to the property before and only arrived minutes earlier also searching the property for Prince. Note: Paisley Park is not small and I doubt the staff just let complete strangers wonder around searching for Prince.

4. At 10:00am This dude with the drugs in his backpack, remember... that he wasn't going to administer, finds Prince in the elevator ODed. The drug that he had, Suboxone is hard OD on but combined with other drugs like sleeping pills, benzos or alcohol it's very very likely. That's why it's illegal to prescribe it without a face to face consult! It's risky when not managed.


I have two theories...
Walgreens filled the script when Prince was photographed there. Prince took it as the doc told him over the phone that evening or the morning he was found dead. The script was too strong, cus Prince is tiny or the Doc was not thorough and didn't check if Prince was taking conflicting medication, causing him to OD the day after he picked up the mystery script.

Theory number two is the Cali doctor tried to give Prince a script for the medication. Prince goes to Walgreens to fill it. Walgreens won't because the pharmacist normally calls the doctor for opiates and risky stuff like that to ask if the doc has met with the patient directly. The doc says no, and Walgreens won't fill it. The doctor says, "no worries, my son will bring some drugs and start treatment asap." The son shows up, gives Prince some Suboxone or other medication but didn't bother to ask if prince had taken sleeping pills or downers, which could have led to Prince ODing. Then old boy delays getting help to cover his tracks, a la Conrad Murray, meanwhile Prince is dying. This is all pure speculation on my part though.

Some papers are reporting that "sources" say that Prince was already in rigor when he was found in the elevator. But no one named the source, for all we know it could be the son, who had no issue blabbing until someone said their might be charges against him. Both he and his father have basically said "fuck hippa" since the beginning of this case.



___________________________________________________________


DJTB YOMM

I mean....Prince HAD to have had SOME meds if the doctor 'found him that way'. So if he had meds...why the trip? It could be Prince was running out and had finished what he had left before the doc got there. But some of these guys are no different than drug pushers. I don't know.

The Walgreen's thing just saddens me cause it sounds so desperate. I still have loved ones caught up in this and money does NOT matter. Russell Brand's movies about addiction are really good and there's a part where he says that he can walk past a homeless person on smack and actually be JEALOUS of them. I've felt that too. To actually feel JEALOUS of a homeless, strung out junkie because they are holding and me, the guy with his shit together, is NOT holding. So effed up.

The fact that you're in a limousine means absolutely NOTHING if you are driving to a walgreen's with an opiate jones. You're in the same place as a homeless person with the same addiction. You could win a fucking lottery while you're jonesing and you won't be happy. Normal things that make people happy just don't have any effect on someone in withdrawal.

called this willy nilly doctor hoping it would help. Mixed suboxone with something else because he was unsupervised and blam ODed.
It's sad man. Addiction is so fucking easy to fall into and so hard to get out of.

___________________________________________________________


DJTB YOMM

and died from the Tylenol. So I imagine the autopsy came back as liver failure.

I never went the suboxone route....I THINK that it works by inhibiting the opiate receptors. If that's the case...then it can be very dangerous in the sense that if you relapse while on it....your normal dose won't get you off. So if Prince is making these decisions by himself.....he takes the sub. Then says 'fuck it I change my mind....I need some oxycodone'. Takes the percs and they don't work cause the sub is blocking them. So then he might double the dose thinking 'I just need to take more' not knowing that it's futile. No matter how much he's gonna take...the suboxone will block it. So that brings us back to the fact that it wasn't the actual oxycodone that killed him. Ie The thing that he actually got high off didn't kill him. He was probably taking the equivalent of 100 Tylenols per day.

All the normal problems might be worsened by 'being' Prince. Too many yes-men. Doctors that might not have his best interests in mind. Too much money. No immediate incentive to get clean. There's some rich people at my NA meetings and they've talked about how their wealth had been a bit of a curse in that regard. It pisses some of the others off on some 'I wish I had that problem' type of thing. But I get it.

I've heard that in Europe you can't even get Tylenol like that. You can get it but they don't lace cold medicine, pain medicine and other stuff with it in high amounts like the US. I had no idea it could mess a person up like that until my SO got on me about taking so many. They need to put much stronger warning labels on it.
___________________________________________________________


DJTB YOMM

I guess the manufacturer's point of view is that 'We can't account for people who are going to abuse or not follow the dosage'. But there's all sorts of things we do in society to safeguard against 'worst-case scenario' type things. We put railings on the side of the stairs. The carpenter doesn't say 'Well I can't account for people if they don't know how to walk'.

In other words....perhaps the percocets are too dangerous because we have to ASSUME they will be abused. And the benefit of the Tylenol being in the pill probably doesn't justify the risk for those who choose to abuse it. I'm not a doctor...but it's always kinda mystify me. If you're on oxycodone...than really what purpose does that Tylenol really serve? To me, why not just take the 5mg of oxycodone pure? It's such a powerful drug on it's own...the Tylenol just seems like such an after-thought. Yet it presents this very real problem.

It surprises me that doctor's even prescribe percs without also advising healthy liver living to counter-act all that garbage. For example...if you ever have to go back on percs...you should make some dietary adjustments. Possibly milk-thistle (not sure if that's scientifically proven)....definitely lots of water. Green veggie smoothies. Anything that's good for your liver. Also some sort of ex-lax. Or more bran. Something to help with the constipation.

this is why I generally avoid taking medications, for the most part... I've been deathly afraid of opitates and hypnotics since I was like 5 years old and I read about how Marilyn Monroe died.

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

They are the great enemy here. I watched a great doc on their introduction of oxycontin to the market. They actually paid to give seminars in med schools and claimed oxycontin wasn't addictive. All expenses paid conference weekends for thousands of practitioners. Free samples for doctors to try on patients. Sales grew from $48 million in 1996 to almost $1.1 billion in 2000. An unprecedented, aggressive marketing campaign. Specifically, the original promotional material claimed the risk of addiction was 'less than 1%'....or only 1 out of 100 people who use it will get addicted. What a fucking joke. The argument, at the time, was that oxycontin was not as addictive as percocet because they were designed with time-release. So take away the sudden rush and spread the high over a number of hours....not addictive anymore. Or so they said.

They had doctors prescribing 80mg oxycontin tablets to people complaining about a sore back. For some perspective....one of those tablets contain the same amount of oxycodone of 16 percocet. Those are the tablets that sell on the street for 50 or 60 bucks a pop. Of course...people got around the time-release thing (which was a bullshit argument in the first place) by crushing them and either snorting or shooting them. But eating them like they're designed for is just as bad in terms of addiction.

What they've done is criminal imo. There should be class-action lawsuits up their ass.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2622774/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNOHAJs9dBY

>They are the great enemy here. I watched a great doc on
>their introduction of oxycontin to the market. They actually
>paid to give seminars in med schools and claimed oxycontin
>wasn't addictive. All expenses paid conference weekends for
>thousands of practitioners. Free samples for doctors to try
>on patients. Sales grew from $48 million in 1996 to almost
>$1.1 billion in 2000. An unprecedented, aggressive marketing
>campaign.


Have you not seen the recent RUSH of commercials for Opdivo?
Yeah, I got a hand in that.
Them commercials for Neulasta?
Yea, I ran them numbers.


How else are the docs supposed to Rx your drug if they don't know it exists?
Why would a MD waste an hour or two of their time listening to your sales pitch about your drug when they have better things to do?
So, you throw in a $80 steak dinner and talk while they eat, so if at the end of it all they don't like your drug they still have a belly full of $80 angus and only spent the hour eating it as they normally would have anyway.


How will the docs know if the drug actually works if they don't have any samples?
What they do is give maybe 5-10 of their patients samples and see how it works on them, if cool they may increase the Rx ratae
if it's bunk and has too many side effects or payor reimbursement issues then they trash it and go back to penicillin.

****
pink toes: http://i.imgur.com/WN7DPL1

>Have you not seen the recent RUSH of commercials for Opdivo?
>Yeah, I got a hand in that.
>Them commercials for Neulasta?
>Yea, I ran them numbers.


and it way past time to band direct to consumer advertising of prescription drugs

btw, this is not how medicine should work
where its lightweight bribing doctors to use the drugs you market
there's a reason for clinical studies and results being available publicly
if this system were working, there should be approved first and second line medicines
to guide doctors on prescribing
this should not be pharmaceuticals pill-pushing.

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

FDA fast tracked BMS application for this drug because it GREATLY outperformed other options in the market already

so, in order for BMS to get the name out they FLOODED the market with ads

but any and all oncologists already knew the praises of Opdivo
what BMS wanted to do is to get the PUBLIC to know about it so the PATIENTS could start asking their docs about it and thus increase awareness/sales



that's just how it goes when you gamble $800M on developing a drug that might flop
have to get as much return as quickly as you can

****
pink toes: http://i.imgur.com/WN7DPL1

>what BMS wanted to do is to get the PUBLIC to know about it so
>the PATIENTS could start asking their docs about it and thus
>increase awareness/sales

i think the u.s is one of the only countries where this shit is legal

and i wasnt speaking specifically to the drugs you mentioned
when trials are ended early due to promising results
what should typically be the case is that they are available to doctors to prescribe
(this is thanks to the hiv activists, btw)
but it doesnt preclude the need to monitor closely patients
because we all know clinical trials are not ideal 'real world' situations
and sometimes when drugs go to market, results are not as in the trials

but pharma cozying up to drs as much as it happens here?
does not compute

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

>>what BMS wanted to do is to get the PUBLIC to know about it
>so
>>the PATIENTS could start asking their docs about it and thus
>>increase awareness/sales
>
>i think the u.s is one of the only countries where this shit
>is legal

Yeah.
Only USA, Brazil and New Zealand allow direct to consumer drug advertising

I don't see it as a bad thing
If there is a drug out there that could be better for me I want to know
Otherwise, we're just dependent upon our docs to relay any information about what drugs are out there.
Let's say I had mutliple myeloma and my doc was just being old school (or racist) and not keeping up with the latest drugs or just down right restricting certain drugs from me.
I'd want to know that Opdivo existed and that it MIGHT be an option instead of just totally being blind to it.






>and i wasnt speaking specifically to the drugs you mentioned
>when trials are ended early due to promising results
>what should typically be the case is that they are available
>to doctors to prescribe
>(this is thanks to the hiv activists, btw)
>but it doesnt preclude the need to monitor closely patients
>because we all know clinical trials are not ideal 'real world'
>situations
>and sometimes when drugs go to market, results are not as in
>the trials


HIV/AIDS clinical trials are different from oncology clinical trials.
oncology clinical trials are very much 'real world' situations
not saying you'll see the results in 100,000 'real' patients that you saw in 1,500 CT patients but they the same drug and same situations


it's kind of weird
do you think the govt should take over the creation of all drugs for all ailments?
do you think companies should be able to profit off life saving drugs such as a cure for cancer or whatever HIV drugs Magic was on?

****
pink toes: http://i.imgur.com/WN7DPL1

>I don't see it as a bad thing
>If there is a drug out there that could be better for me I
>want to know

In the middle of the game though? No it should be told to you by your doc after its been vetted and understood based on your condition and medical history. People are dumb and so when they are informed about something they suddenly think they know it. better than anyone, and when it comes to perscription drugs that is just wrong.

What's worse is when they (used to?) pre-advertise before it hit the market. FDA said they couldn't advertise the drug, so they'd come up with ways to get around it by doing advertsisments that don't mention the drug but just the condition and possible new forms of treatment. They'd seesd the intersts to get them asking doctors. Doctors in turn start estimating need and before the drug is even on the market the demand has been created.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

>>I don't see it as a bad thing
>>If there is a drug out there that could be better for me I
>>want to know
>
>In the middle of the game though? No it should be told to you
>by your doc after its been vetted and understood based on your
>condition and medical history. People are dumb and so when
>they are informed about something they suddenly think they
>know it. better than anyone, and when it comes to perscription
>drugs that is just wrong.


It's still up to the doc to write the script
Doc shoulnd't be writing scripts for patients that aren't most beneficial for the patient
that's unethical and criminal

Say you have hypertension
no matter how hard you pine for that Norvasc or Hyvaar the doc might say medically you CAN'T have those other class of drugs and you have to stay with ACE inhibitors so I'm going to keep you on this Prinivil for now.

It's all up to the doc.
Patient can't walk in the pharmacy and get what they want



As far as demand,
If every man in the world died there would be no more demand for Viagra or Cialis.

****
pink toes: http://i.imgur.com/WN7DPL1

at work, and the only way to really deal with it is to alleviate the stress. Those pills you popping work in the moment but then Q4 rolls around and it's not enough, so you pop more and pop more, change perscriptions pop more pop more. Never dealing with the real problem. Meanwhile $$$$$$.

Let's not pretend that drugmakers are altruistically making the pills that people need.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

>at work, and the only way to really deal with it is to
>alleviate the stress. Those pills you popping work in the
>moment but then Q4 rolls around and it's not enough, so you
>pop more and pop more, change perscriptions pop more pop more.
>Never dealing with the real problem. Meanwhile $$$$$$.
>
>Let's not pretend that drugmakers are altruistically making
>the pills that people need.



I really do.
I'm on Lisinopril.
I fought for over a decade not to take it.
But my diet is great and I work out (run marathons) but yet and still I'm still pre-hypertensive/hypertensive
basically, my mother gifted me with this hypertension gene
she got it
my sisters got it
it's just that "Black ppl" curse

so, since I had a kid and I want to be around for her I relented and began taking it

Although, I DO work in a high stress environment that's when I'm hypertensive
even with no stress i'm still pre-hypertensive

shit sucks man,
i'm not obese by any means
and i'm under 40
it bees like that sometime

but yeah my docs would tell me if i didnt wanna take pills for the rest of my life i need to do X, Y, DASH diet, Z
did all that and still no dice

so, here i am



but again, the situation you presented did not address the unethicalness of the pharma companies
they just providing info

i'm not a physician
my PCP is fairly young so if i come in and ask about a hypertension med I seen on TV she needs to be able to break it down for me and why we're going to stay with this 5mg of Lisinopril
(5mg is a baby/intro strength just to test the waters)

****
pink toes: http://i.imgur.com/WN7DPL1

Not the content but the fact you tangent more than me, and I'm a tangential motherfucker.

At any rate wife hipped me to this this week

https://www.scienceandnonduality.com/an-excerpt-from-it-didnt-start-with-you-how-inherited-family-trauma-shapes-who-we-are-and-how-to-end-the-cycle-viking-april-2016-by-mark-wolynn/

Now take hereditary trauma, through in modern stresses, and rather than deal with either throw a pharma cocktail at it. Yeah that's gonna work.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

Thanks for this.
No.
Really, THANKS!!!!!
I just ordered this on Prime for $17

Maaaaaannnnnnn my family got some historical isht like a MUTHA!

****
pink toes: http://i.imgur.com/WN7DPL1

>I don't see it as a bad thing

i do.
it presumes that lay persons are much better informed than medically trained personnel
this is rarely, if ever the case
instead what you have is patients presurring doctors to prescribe
meds based on an advertisement
where the side effects are very quickly run through
its a form of advertising that is pretty much enethical
given that the u.s has one of the most inefficient health systems
drug costs play a huge role in driving up the cost of medical care
without the benefits being greater than you would in more managed settings.


>HIV/AIDS clinical trials are different from oncology clinical
>trials.
>oncology clinical trials are very much 'real world'
>situations
>not saying you'll see the results in 100,000 'real' patients
>that you saw in 1,500 CT patients but they the same drug and
>same situations

no they are not
the selection of patients is not based on an 'average' patient
but on very restricted enrollment criteria
this is true of all clinical trials (unless the trial is more of a pragmatic RCT <- these are much more expensive than regular RCTs and require a larger clinical sample.
so typically drugs are released for public use based on safety and efficacy
but also with the knowledge that the first few years of use will need careful follow up because we dont quite know how well they translate to the 'average' aptient
who will most likely have other conditions and be taking other drugs as well.

and no, i dont think govt should be the one coming up with new drug discoveries
the role the govt plays is one of regulation
the u.s pharma market is not well regulated.

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

>>HIV/AIDS clinical trials are different from oncology
>clinical
>>trials.
>>oncology clinical trials are very much 'real world'
>>situations
>>not saying you'll see the results in 100,000 'real' patients
>>that you saw in 1,500 CT patients but they the same drug and
>>same situations
>
>no they are not
>the selection of patients is not based on an 'average'
>patient
>but on very restricted enrollment criteria
>this is true of all clinical trials (unless the trial is more
>of a pragmatic RCT <- these are much more expensive than
>regular RCTs and require a larger clinical sample.
>so typically drugs are released for public use based on safety
>and efficacy
>but also with the knowledge that the first few years of use
>will need careful follow up because we dont quite know how
>well they translate to the 'average' aptient
>who will most likely have other conditions and be taking other
>drugs as well.


I don't know what kinda oncology CT you work on but I've created/run a couple dozen in the past year and they are all based on "regular" patients
of course if my drug is dealing with HER2+ breast cancer patients I'm going to ensure that all patients are HER2+ or else the study would be a dud.

Certain drugs only work on ER+/PR+ breast cancer patients so you need to ensure they meet this criterion before enrolling them in the study.
But that's it.
other than that it's GAME ON!

I've worked in all phases/stages of clinical trials.
I've worked post-production/marketing
I've worked in post-post production such as reimbursement issues with the payors.
I've worked helping drug companies secure their continued patent to keep that market share up

If it has to do with money and drugs i've dealt with it.

Again, prescribing issues land soley in the physicians laps and not of the marketer nor patient

****
pink toes: http://i.imgur.com/WN7DPL1

in a clinical setting to ensure that it has high internal validity
ie the sample population is selected based on inclusion and exclusion criteria
to ensure that the trial can basically address the question, is the drug efficacious
this limits the external validity- i.e. how would it work on the general population
which would address the question, is it effective (and applicable in a real world population-
which includes patients with comorbidities, differential adherence, etc
and this is where things get interesting.

there are very few clinical trials that address the issue of external validity
and id wager even the trials you have been involved in
(and i am assuming you are talking about the design, selection of study participants, randomization process etc
its a different story if you are coming in after there are study results

>I don't know what kinda oncology CT you work on but I've
>created/run a couple dozen in the past year and they are all
>based on "regular" patients

what do you mean by 'regular' patients?

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

>btw, this is not how medicine should work
>where its lightweight bribing doctors to use the drugs you
>market
>there's a reason for clinical studies and results being
>available publicly
>if this system were working, there should be approved first
>and second line medicines
>to guide doctors on prescribing
>this should not be pharmaceuticals pill-pushing.




In oncology and HIV/AIDS there ARE "rcommended" regimens and lines of therapy depending upon the diagnosis and severity (staging) of diag.

check out Takeda's Ninlaro
that's not given (nor paid for) in 1st LOT

****
pink toes: http://i.imgur.com/WN7DPL1

I mean....I think they lied. But in the very least...they provided inaccurate information on THEIR drug. They've even admitted as much.


Not sure if those other examples you've provided involve actively lying (or as they would argue, unfortunately inaccurate data). But that's the distinction that makes Purdue's oxycontin particularly unethical.

We can't forget....in the late 90's and 00's....patients were being TOLD that this oxycontin they were being prescribed had very low levels of addiction risk. Shouldn't someone be legally responsible for the well-documented and overwhelming fall-out?