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Subject: "Hillary Clinton: "I'm very proud that I was a Goldwater Girl" (NPR)" Search result list | First match | Last match
Vex_id
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Sat Feb-27-16 08:30 AM

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"Hillary Clinton: "I'm very proud that I was a Goldwater Girl" (NPR)"
Sat Feb-27-16 08:33 AM by Vex_id

          

So let's collect more receipts.

In the 90's -- Clinton:
-called young blacks "super predators"
-said they needed to be brought "to heel"
-expressed pride in her conservative roots as a Goldwater Girl

So pragmatic!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h15-tiVWk-0

SCOTT SIMON: I mean, did you ever back in the ’60s, between when — I believe you were a Goldwater girl —
HILLARY CLINTON: That’s right.
SCOTT SIMON: — and whenever you became politically –
HILLARY CLINTON: That’s right. And I feel like my political beliefs are rooted in the conservatism that I was raised with. I am very proud that I was a Goldwater girl.

More failure:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dY77j6uBHI

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
TV Pundits Praise Hillary Clinton On Air, Fail to Disclose Financial
Feb 27th 2016
1
I really dislike this woman
Feb 27th 2016
2
the sad thing is that she is fucking brilliant. uses her powers for evil...
Feb 27th 2016
3
      RE: the sad thing is that she is fucking brilliant. uses her powers for ...
Feb 27th 2016
4
LOL @ the Clinton ad banners on OKP btw
Feb 27th 2016
5
she is one of the most politiciany politician that ever politicked
Feb 27th 2016
6
That is her blessing and her curse.
Feb 27th 2016
7
Might as well throw in her hatred of BDS...
Feb 27th 2016
8
This is actually one of the more disturbing elements to HRC's candidacy:
Feb 27th 2016
9
Libya and being married to Bill should have gotten her 0 black votes.
Feb 29th 2016
117
Flip timeline visualized
Feb 27th 2016
10
My god that's stupid.
Feb 27th 2016
11
      I'm not following, what are you saying is the "p.i."?
Feb 27th 2016
12
      Its means strav is a hillbot
Feb 27th 2016
13
      lol
Feb 27th 2016
14
      Do I really have to go through it line by line?
Feb 27th 2016
21
           your idea of 'nuance' is hilarious
Feb 27th 2016
24
           So now she had to vote for the Iraq War because of sexism?
Feb 27th 2016
27
           Those craven calculations did not cause the war.
Feb 27th 2016
28
                None of those excuses for her vote are going to fly
Feb 27th 2016
30
                     Thanks.
Feb 27th 2016
31
           You are shockingly unreasonable about this.
Feb 28th 2016
39
           What are you even talking about?
Feb 28th 2016
41
           Lots of words. I have just two in response: PLEAS COPPED!!!!
Feb 29th 2016
108
           Or as the grownups call it: sense.
Feb 29th 2016
112
                Damn, I thought you were considerably smarter than this
Mar 01st 2016
129
           This was really sad.
Feb 29th 2016
110
                Your revolution was a fad.
Feb 29th 2016
113
                     Your status quo is here to stay and that's exactly the problem
Mar 01st 2016
131
      Surprised they left out her flip-flops on NAFTA
Feb 27th 2016
15
      Can you refute anything on the timeline?
Feb 27th 2016
17
      look, I'm 100% gonna vote for a Democrat in the General Election
Feb 28th 2016
45
           Did she say she opposed it until 2013, though?
Feb 28th 2016
48
                i was ready to down folks for calling you a hillbot
Feb 29th 2016
83
                     Call me whatever you want as long as you vote for a Democrat.
Feb 29th 2016
114
                          What in the fuck are you talking about?
Mar 01st 2016
155
                               You're emotional.
Mar 01st 2016
156
i might not vote for this chick if she gets the nom bro.
Feb 27th 2016
16
Here is one of Goldwater's racist campaign ads....
Feb 27th 2016
18
that poster is wild
Feb 27th 2016
19
fam got the herman cain grin
Feb 27th 2016
20
Oh, you mean when she was seventeen years old.
Feb 27th 2016
22
      Stop
Feb 27th 2016
23
           Stop pointing out how ludicrous the political mythos in here is?
Feb 27th 2016
26
                I've pointed to dozens of indefensible things she's done recently
Feb 27th 2016
29
                     Yeah, I guess the issue is,
Feb 27th 2016
32
                          You're willing to rationalize everything she does
Feb 27th 2016
33
                               Neither Warren nor Reich finds her record "questionable."
Feb 28th 2016
35
                                    Robert Reich officially endorsed Bernie Sanders yesterday
Feb 28th 2016
36
                                    ^^^^^^^^^
Feb 28th 2016
38
                                    Disappointing. But again,
Feb 28th 2016
40
                                         He doubted her willingness to.change the status quo...
Feb 28th 2016
42
                                              By that standard, I've found specific decisions FDR made questionable,
Feb 28th 2016
43
                                                   Criticizing a long-dead president...
Feb 28th 2016
44
                                                        You mean to say there weren't decisions,
Feb 28th 2016
47
                                                             That's obvious. The Reich, Warren and Alexander criticisms...
Feb 28th 2016
49
                                                             them pleas is enormous
Feb 29th 2016
85
                                                                  The rationale is:
Feb 29th 2016
115
                                    Both have criticized her weak stance on Wall Street
Feb 28th 2016
37
Y'all gonna shit on Bern when he's out campaigning for her in 3 months?
Feb 27th 2016
25
None of these politicians (including Bernie) deserve a pass
Feb 28th 2016
34
RE: None of these politicians (including Bernie) deserve a pass
Feb 28th 2016
46
why wait? i have already started
Mar 01st 2016
130
https://twitter.com/Quinnae_Moon/status/703809513179254785
Feb 28th 2016
50
Despite what Clinton stans purport - it's not about Bernard Sanders
Feb 28th 2016
51
LOL@MOST of my campaign contributions are $100 or less...HAHA!
Feb 28th 2016
52
Exactly
Feb 28th 2016
53
Clearly not. Seeing how all Bern heads seem to do is talk about Hillary
Feb 28th 2016
54
      Political discourse in this country in general is too candidate-centered...
Feb 28th 2016
55
           fair points n/m
Feb 28th 2016
56
Yeah, put your celebratory pom-poms down https://imgur.com/Zfa5630
Feb 28th 2016
57
^^anyone have an actual source for this info?
Feb 28th 2016
58
      pledged delegates; HRC = 91, Bern = 65, it's right, good luck finding a
Feb 28th 2016
59
      thanks.
Feb 28th 2016
60
           Earned delegates should be what people are paying attention to right now
Feb 28th 2016
69
                RE: Earned delegates should be what people are paying attention to right...
Feb 28th 2016
71
                pure scare tactic, do people really think SDs would betray popular vote?
Mar 01st 2016
132
      Its simple math. Post count shouldn't matter numnut...
Feb 28th 2016
62
           LOL hurt ass. And your wiki link just proved my fucking point
Feb 28th 2016
65
                I literally cringe at how some of you weirdos communicate
Feb 28th 2016
68
                     still nothing huh?
Feb 28th 2016
70
Vice: Repugs Are Trying to Use Bernie to Undermine Hillary Clinton (SWIP...
Feb 28th 2016
61
Now they're using the "Sanders is a Republican stooge" gambit
Feb 28th 2016
63
      RE: Now they're using the "Sanders is a Republican stooge&q...
Feb 28th 2016
64
           Vice is libertarian and in favor of "small government"
Feb 28th 2016
66
                RE: Vice is libertarian and in favor of "small government"
Feb 28th 2016
67
                lol
Feb 28th 2016
77
                LOL
Feb 29th 2016
107
Hillary is an opportunist and flip flopper like Romney
Feb 28th 2016
72
And just to be clear, you'd say the same about Barack Obama, right?
Feb 28th 2016
73
RE: And just to be clear, you'd say the same about Barack Obama, right?
Feb 28th 2016
74
I'm not necessarily even accusing him of that.
Feb 28th 2016
75
      I can't believe you feel for that.
Feb 29th 2016
78
           RE: I can't believe you feel for that.
Feb 29th 2016
91
           real talk... Obama was great for US and what he represented
Feb 29th 2016
100
           RE: I can't believe you feel for that.
Feb 29th 2016
116
less so, although his foreign policy sucks
Feb 28th 2016
76
"she doesn't stand for anything but lining her own pocket"
Feb 29th 2016
98
      smh, you been wrong as fuck lately bruh... they are worth 100+ mill
Feb 29th 2016
101
im voting Bernie but a lot of this anti-Clinton rhetoric is ridiculous
Feb 29th 2016
79
RE: im voting Bernie but a lot of this anti-Clinton rhetoric is ridiculo...
Feb 29th 2016
80
      RE: im voting Bernie but a lot of this anti-Clinton rhetoric is ridiculo...
Feb 29th 2016
82
           RE: im voting Bernie but a lot of this anti-Clinton rhetoric is ridiculo...
Feb 29th 2016
86
                RE: im voting Bernie but a lot of this anti-Clinton rhetoric is ridiculo...
Feb 29th 2016
88
                     RE: im voting Bernie but a lot of this anti-Clinton rhetoric is ridiculo...
Feb 29th 2016
90
                          RE: im voting Bernie but a lot of this anti-Clinton rhetoric is ridiculo...
Feb 29th 2016
93
                               RE: im voting Bernie but a lot of this anti-Clinton rhetoric is ridiculo...
Feb 29th 2016
94
                                    RE: im voting Bernie but a lot of this anti-Clinton rhetoric is ridiculo...
Feb 29th 2016
95
Is Hilary being a flip-flopper a bad thing?
Feb 29th 2016
81
Yes
Feb 29th 2016
84
RE: Yes
Feb 29th 2016
89
Maybe. But the odds that's going to be a neo-con agenda is rare
Feb 29th 2016
92
      RE: Maybe. But the odds that's going to be a neo-con agenda is rare
Feb 29th 2016
96
yes
Feb 29th 2016
87
i get what you're saying but you're overlooking something critical
Feb 29th 2016
97
I am with you. in the 90s the prevailing winds were blowing rightward.
Feb 29th 2016
99
If that is the way the wind is blowing,let no one say I do not also blow...
Feb 29th 2016
102
      pardon my ignorance... i was real self involved during the clinton years
Feb 29th 2016
103
           RE: pardon my ignorance... i was real self involved during the clinton y...
Feb 29th 2016
104
           Clinton's worst crime, by far, was banking deregulation
Feb 29th 2016
105
           ^^^^^THIS x 1000^^^^
Mar 01st 2016
138
           he also deregulated banks and tried to fuck consumers.
Feb 29th 2016
109
                Yeah. His deregulation led straight to the subprime meltdown.
Feb 29th 2016
111
It would be really hard for a president with credibility/conviction to g...
Feb 29th 2016
106
Not for me.
Feb 29th 2016
118
      What makes it relevant is she continued to defend Goldwater...
Mar 01st 2016
119
      RE: What makes it relevant is she continued to defend Goldwater...
Mar 01st 2016
120
           That's not what I said. Read the last sentence again.
Mar 01st 2016
121
                If you had to choose between Goldwater and Robert W. Welch...
Mar 01st 2016
122
                     RE: If you had to choose between Goldwater and Robert W. Welch...
Mar 01st 2016
123
                          It's a lot bigger than crime, though
Mar 01st 2016
124
                               RE: It's a lot bigger than crime, though
Mar 01st 2016
126
                                    RE: It's a lot bigger than crime, though
Mar 01st 2016
128
                                         RE: It's a lot bigger than crime, though
Mar 01st 2016
133
      RE: the same conservative economic policies of Obama
Mar 01st 2016
125
           RE: the same conservative economic policies of Obama
Mar 01st 2016
127
Hey Hillary Haters, y'all going to be like this for the next 8 years?
Mar 01st 2016
134
LOL@unmitigated hate = her record, FOH
Mar 01st 2016
135
There is talking about her record and dissecting her every utterance
Mar 01st 2016
139
      the hate is based on her record and her lies bruh
Mar 01st 2016
142
      Look up how Malcolm X talked about JFK...
Mar 01st 2016
146
           I am all for being critical of candidate and keeping their feet to the f...
Mar 01st 2016
149
why would a Hillary Hater stop hating?
Mar 01st 2016
136
They could just move on. It was annoying AF all the hillary fan girls
Mar 01st 2016
137
      oh, im talking about hate based on actual policies/lies
Mar 01st 2016
141
           RE: oh, im talking about hate based on actual policies/lies
Mar 01st 2016
143
                cmon bruh.. she is the front runner
Mar 01st 2016
147
                     RE: cmon bruh.. she is the front runner
Mar 01st 2016
152
                          but the real race didn't start until SC remember?
Mar 01st 2016
157
She doesn't need an uncritical fanbase
Mar 01st 2016
140
lol
Mar 02nd 2016
159
i'm starting to think neither of the Dems can beat Trump
Mar 01st 2016
144
RE: i'm starting to think neither of the Dems can beat Trump
Mar 01st 2016
145
that dude sounds like he doesn't want to win though
Mar 01st 2016
148
      nah, he's smart as shit with this shit
Mar 01st 2016
150
           this could be true...
Mar 01st 2016
151
           That's a good comparison.
Mar 01st 2016
154
tape of her calling young blacks super predators?
Mar 01st 2016
153
smh
Mar 01st 2016
158

bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
16595 posts
Sat Feb-27-16 10:30 AM

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1. "TV Pundits Praise Hillary Clinton On Air, Fail to Disclose Financial "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Ties to Her Campaign

http://www.democracynow.org/2016/2/26/lee_fang_tv_pundits_praise_hillary

https://theintercept.com/2016/02/25/tv-pundits-praise-hillary-clinton-on-air-fail-to-disclose-financial-ties-to-her-campaign/

the media hasn't scratched the surface of HRC's BS, most of which we've been discussing since the beginning

I just want people to realize she's no different than the Reps that most have no problem opposing

I'm not sure what it will take for people to see it

the power of propaganda.

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
79594 posts
Sat Feb-27-16 10:52 AM

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2. "I really dislike this woman"
In response to Reply # 0


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
71387 posts
Sat Feb-27-16 11:51 AM

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3. "the sad thing is that she is fucking brilliant. uses her powers for evil..."
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

did you see elizabeth warren talking to bill moyers about HRC and the bankruptcy bill? i won't ruin it for you if not. three-minute clip and the anecdote(s) *perfectly* encapsulate what is wrong with clinton and a clinton presidency, and also what is wrong with american politics as a whole

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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Vex_id
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65616 posts
Sat Feb-27-16 11:56 AM

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4. "RE: the sad thing is that she is fucking brilliant. uses her powers for ..."
In response to Reply # 3


          

>did you see elizabeth warren talking to bill moyers about HRC
>and the bankruptcy bill?

Warren brought that fire.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RokOLdsZLgQ


-->

  

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Vex_id
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Sat Feb-27-16 12:15 PM

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5. "LOL @ the Clinton ad banners on OKP btw"
In response to Reply # 0


          


-->

  

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GriftyMcgrift
Member since May 22nd 2002
20414 posts
Sat Feb-27-16 12:36 PM

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6. "she is one of the most politiciany politician that ever politicked"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

the clintons are like seasoned vets when it comes to this game.



  

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Castro
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50749 posts
Sat Feb-27-16 01:13 PM

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7. "That is her blessing and her curse."
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

------------------
One Hundred.

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
382 posts
Sat Feb-27-16 01:17 PM

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8. "Might as well throw in her hatred of BDS..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

...and her promises to AIPAC to support Netanyahu in "obliterating" Iran, her vote to approve cluster bombs in civilian areas (like the West Bank). Plus her lobbying to veto a UN resolution condemning Israel's theft of Palestinian land.

Bernie could be better on Palestine, but as with literally every single other issue (with the slight, partial exception of gun control) she is a hundred times worse.

Hillary 2016: She'll make you puke, but not as much as Trump.

  

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Vex_id
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Sat Feb-27-16 01:45 PM

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9. "This is actually one of the more disturbing elements to HRC's candidacy:"
In response to Reply # 8


          

>...and her promises to AIPAC to support Netanyahu in
>"obliterating" Iran, her vote to approve cluster bombs in
>civilian areas (like the West Bank). Plus her lobbying to veto
>a UN resolution condemning Israel's theft of Palestinian
>land.

She has been indistinguishable from AIPAC pawns like Rubio when it comes to "defending Israel no matter what" Recently - when asked who she was most proud of being an enemy of - she actually said..."the Iranians":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOzfdG1BCS8

Mind you that this was precisely during the time that we are negotiating with Iran to restore diplomatic relations - yet she's the one to carry the Obama legacy forward? lol


-->

  

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BlassFemur
Member since Mar 26th 2008
10309 posts
Mon Feb-29-16 11:48 PM

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117. "Libya and being married to Bill should have gotten her 0 black votes."
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

not to mention she's a known liar.

https://banafrit.com/
http://middlebrainmedia.com/

  

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MEAT
Member since Feb 08th 2008
22257 posts
Sat Feb-27-16 04:44 PM

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10. "Flip timeline visualized "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://imgur.com/gallery/yZ0LZDP/new

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
12698 posts
Sat Feb-27-16 05:01 PM

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11. "My god that's stupid. "
In response to Reply # 10


          


This pseudo intellectualism is probably the thing that offends me most about the Sanders movement.

  

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MEAT
Member since Feb 08th 2008
22257 posts
Sat Feb-27-16 05:15 PM

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12. "I'm not following, what are you saying is the "p.i."?"
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
79594 posts
Sat Feb-27-16 06:02 PM

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13. "Its means strav is a hillbot"
In response to Reply # 12


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Vex_id
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Sat Feb-27-16 07:51 PM

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14. "lol "
In response to Reply # 13


          

bruh been going so hard for the Hill that he abandoned the scientific method.

-->

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
12698 posts
Sat Feb-27-16 10:31 PM

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21. "Do I really have to go through it line by line?"
In response to Reply # 12


          

The reason I call it pseudo intellectual is because it's painted as an attempt at communicating information. It's constructed as an infographic, when in fact it's naive, childish propaganda, peddling opinions at best, insinuating misinformation more often.

I'll get to that in a second, but I also want to point out that this is getting to be a pattern both among the campaign and its supporters. There's the Sanders TV ads where they draw graphs, don't explain what (if any) data is being shown, then wipe it all away and replace it with a cartoon of somebody handing somebody else a bag of cash, at which point the old sage says "the system is rigged", as if that constitutes a plan for anything (if he really thinks the system is rigged, why is he even trying to work within it?). Or there's the way they always trot out head-to-head general election polls, directly implying that Sanders's leads in those polls indicate he'd be a stronger candidate, when any Poli-sci 101 student could explain why those polls at best mean nothing, at worst imply very bad news for Sanders once you make reasonable assumptions about what happens in the course of a general election. Or there's the entire economic plan, spelled out with little to no empirical support. Instead the campaign repeatedly points to the single economic analysis that roundly (and not very plausibly) supports Sanders's views. Then when the people who really know what they're talking about point out that this beloved analysis contains even more fairy-dust than many Republican economic proposals, even tracking the problem down to a very specific mathematical error (accurately modeling a stimulative effect from government spending, but then neglecting to end the stimulus when that spending comes to an end), the campaign doesn't take the time to carry out their own, more serious economic analysis, they just go quiet on the subject. And the supporters: at best they deflect, at worst they accuse the entire field of macroeconomics of either being the domain of "Hillbots", or of not being a science at all.

So, to the "flip timeline." First of all, this whole idea of accusing a candidate of "flip flopping" should be offensive to anyone who saw John Kerry raked over the coals for it. There's nothing wrong with seeing nuance in issues, there's nothing wrong with changing your positions as you learn from your mistakes. And no, there's nothing wrong with adapting to the mood of the country to maximize the likelihood of getting elected to actually do some good.

I'm also annoyed at how they draw the lines in red and blue, to insinuate that she's been taking Republican positions. Every one of the positions mentioned here has been well within the mainstream of the Democratic party.

Now, line by line:

Gay marriage: The line drawn here would apply just as well to Barack Obama as to Hillary Clinton. And we all like Barack Obama right? Right? As a matter of fact, those of us who remember the 2008 campaign will remember her generally being to the left of Obama on the issue. She supported civil unions at the federal level, as Barack Obama and all sane Democrats did at the time, but she called for real marriage on a state-by-state basis, and for legalizing gay marriage in New York.

Iraq: She took the same position as a lot of Democrats, despite voicing strong reservations. Yes, one can infer that she was thinking about running for President and was trying to avoid sexist pigeonholing of her as weak on Defense. And yes, in 2008, she stated the obvious and said the war was a mistake. That flip was not a bad thing by any means. And while people will harp on her judgement on this point, let's not forget that Barack Obama (who we all like, right?) trusted her judgement on these matters enough to name her Secretary of State.

Universal Health Coverage: I just love it how Obamacare is drawn in red here. Also, it's lovely how they say she "backtracked" by supporting the public option. She never opposed the public option.

Criminal Justice: Wait, it's bad that she supported strict sentences for hate crimes?

TPP: First of all, I love how they go to the trouble of explaining that the TPP would "displace certain jobs to/from US." I guess they're assuming their readers are too simple to know what TPP even stands for, let alone what it does, so they imply an interpretation far afield from mainstream economic analysis. It's a shame that she's been forced to claim opposition to TPP. The TPP is one of the great achievements of Obama's second term (and we all like Obama right?). It would be nice if Sanders and his supporters would take the time to understand WHY the TPP is so uniformly regarded as good for the American economy, rather than falling back on naive tropes from the Nader campaign.

Keystone pipeline: The one thing we know for sure about the Keystone pipeline is that it never deserved the attention it got. The Republicans claim it would create a lot of jobs. That's bullshit, of course -- it would produce a tiny number of jobs, which would largely disappear as soon as the pipeline is done. The Democratic base thinks it would severely harm the environment. That's bullshit too! Nobody on this board has argued harder on environmental issues, particularly global warming, than me. But the standard lefty interpretation of the Keystone pipeline is hopelessly naive. Yes, leaks would cause environmental damage, but more leaks, and more overall damage, would be caused by transporting the oil by truck or train, which is what would happen without Keystone. As for whether making it easier for Canada to extract oil would cause the world to use more oil: is anybody really naive enough to believe that?

Cuban Embargo: All along that line, she's either equal, or to the left, of mainstream Democratic party positions. Was any electable politician calling for an end to the Cuban embargo before 2008?

NCLB: So Ted Kennedy's position gets drawn in red?

DNC ban on lobbyist fundraising: It was a nice, high-minded idea that the party tried out for a while, hoping that a holier-than-thou stance would outweigh the enormous disadvantage it would put them in against the Republicans. It failed. Just like Bernie Sanders's opposition to superpacs would be a catastrophe in a general election.

"Free stuff": Okay, now they're joking.

"Wall Street stance": This somehow neglects to mention that everyone who knows how the modern banking system works agrees that her proposals on banking reform are stronger than Bernie's. Glass-Steagal, however satisfying it might be to employ, would have made essentially no difference in how the financial crisis unfolded. Banking does not work the same way it did in the 1930s.


People will nitpick, or completely dismiss, individual arguments here, but the real problem with the infographic is the complete lack of any semblance of nuance, historical understanding, or willingness to understand how policy actually works. It's not a God-given fact that liberals will always have the intellectual high-ground. We have to fight to uphold that reputation, often in the face of extreme stupidity (which we see from OKP liberals all the time, inside and outside of politics). Obama was never a revolutionary. He was pragmatic, and he was a technocrat. His legacy is the willingness to learn from experience and understand how the world really works. The way the Sanders campaign is being run is a complete withdrawal from that legacy, and it's sickening to see.

  

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AZ
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24. "your idea of 'nuance' is hilarious"
In response to Reply # 21


          

and your attempts to explain her extreme policy shifts, while laudable, are nonsense. The more obvious and reasonable explanation is that she changes her position when it become politically expedient.

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Sat Feb-27-16 11:06 PM

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27. "So now she had to vote for the Iraq War because of sexism? "
In response to Reply # 21


          

I'm sure that women whose countries have been devastated with her complicity take a lot of comfort in her craven calculations.

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Sat Feb-27-16 11:12 PM

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28. "Those craven calculations did not cause the war."
In response to Reply # 27


          


The authorization would have passed just as easily without her. So let's get past the holier-than-thou bullshit. Blaming her for Bush's war is utterly ludicrous.

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Sat Feb-27-16 11:22 PM

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30. "None of those excuses for her vote are going to fly"
In response to Reply # 28


          

She was complicit in the worst foreign-policy decision in a generation, period.

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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31. "Thanks."
In response to Reply # 30


          


We've heard it before.

  

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RaFromQueens
Member since Apr 18th 2006
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Sun Feb-28-16 12:33 AM

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39. "You are shockingly unreasonable about this. "
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

Hypocrisy doesn't play well. Neither does opportunism. Saying that it's okay doesn't make it so. Stop it.

---
"People that need positivity around them all the time are weak individuals in my book" - @lilduval

  

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stravinskian
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41. "What are you even talking about? "
In response to Reply # 39


          


She's a mainstream Democrat. That's not hypocrisy or opportunism. And buying into those right-wing tropes only helps elect President Trump.

  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
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108. "Lots of words. I have just two in response: PLEAS COPPED!!!!"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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stravinskian
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112. "Or as the grownups call it: sense."
In response to Reply # 108


          


You can call it copping pleas, you can call her a flip-flopper. I really don't give much of a fuck. What I care about is stopping President Trump (or in some bizarre turn Cruz or Rubio, who would be just as harmful, possibly worse since we know they believe what they say).

I care about putting liberals on the court, vetoing Obamacare repeals, vetoing Dodd/Frank repeals, upholding DACA, DAPA, the Iran deal. If this requires me to support someone who knows how work in the system, then I'm happy to have such a candidate. Bernie's only plan for anything, this or anything else, is: let's get a hell of a lot of votes -- something he's utterly failed to do.

  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
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129. "Damn, I thought you were considerably smarter than this"
In response to Reply # 112
Tue Mar-01-16 10:35 AM by ConcreteCharlie

  

          

Towing the establishment line? Putting politics over principles at every turn? This has been disheartening. *Some* of the points you made were valid and the graphic *is* cheesy, but the point-by-point refutation and the gloating about her not becoming the Buffalo Bills of the DNC is pathetic, pure Stan stuff. More to the point, this is not merely an assessment of her in isolation, it's an assessment of her relative to Sanders, who has absolutely been out in front of issues, WAY out in front. While the Clintons were blowing the lid off the prison industrial complex, he was already condemning it. When the DNC was too fucking spineless to oppose unjust and unjustified wars, he wasn't.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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Vex_id
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110. "This was really sad."
In response to Reply # 21


          



-->

  

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stravinskian
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113. "Your revolution was a fad."
In response to Reply # 110


          


And it's already gone out of style.

I look forward to his endorsement.

  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
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131. "Your status quo is here to stay and that's exactly the problem"
In response to Reply # 113


  

          

Of course he will endorse her, what choice does he have? Meanwhile she had considerably more money, fame and media coverage behind her and it turned into a squeaker. She already flopped hard as fuck in one primary she should have won, I don't think it's any great feat to win against a weaker opponent with a bigger advantage. You're in here gloating like she just slew Goliath. She IS Goliath.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Sat Feb-27-16 08:50 PM

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15. "Surprised they left out her flip-flops on NAFTA "
In response to Reply # 11
Sat Feb-27-16 08:52 PM by Mansa Musa

          

She's more dishonest than this list makes her out to be.

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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17. "Can you refute anything on the timeline?"
In response to Reply # 11
Sat Feb-27-16 09:11 PM by Mansa Musa

          

How is it "pseudo-intellectual" to point out that Clinton has been wrong (and switched sides) on Iraq, trade agreements, gay marriage, Cuba, No Child Left Behind, and the Keystone XL pipeline? Are you denying she was wrong on those things, or are you just claiming that it doesn't matter?

  

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Dr Claw
Member since Jun 25th 2003
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45. "look, I'm 100% gonna vote for a Democrat in the General Election"
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

because fuck all of the right wing.
libertarian, conservative, Republican, Trumpian... fuck it all.

but I wouldn't limit this to "Sanders fandom"

waiting until 2013 to flip on gay marriage is ridiculous.

I thought it was ridiculous when Obama was talking that "traditional marriage" shit because voters are horrible

NO ONE believed him when he said that.

but that was after Obama's flip. 2013, dogg?

Obama has made much of her clinging to a certain brand of centrism unnecessary.

if you're wondering why there's this kind of fire on her seat, that's why.

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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48. "Did she say she opposed it until 2013, though?"
In response to Reply # 45
Sun Feb-28-16 09:42 AM by stravinskian

          

Of course not. That's just the date of the particular quote this guy found. She wasn't giving regular interviews at the time, especially on domestic policy.

This is another problem with drawing this as a timeline. There isn't nearly as much information out there as this thing claims to present.

Someone find a recording of her saying the President shouldn't have "evolved" on the issue, and I'll eat my hat.

  

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MiracleRic
Member since Oct 21st 2002
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83. "i was ready to down folks for calling you a hillbot"
In response to Reply # 48


  

          

not after this post though

the whole point of Bernie fans is that he isn't just another Dem that you keep reminding us that Hillary is...

exactly the fucking point of supporting Bernie

the amount of pleas you cop over the gay marriage stance, iraq, and criminal justice policy "flip-flops" is just plain old shitty...it shows she has shitty foresight...plain and simple

some of the other stuff you're talking about i'd likely concede if i knew more about in depth but cmon yo

Let me sport my Air Hyperbole 2010s in peace. (c) ansomble

Building repetoires (c) spm since 1983

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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114. "Call me whatever you want as long as you vote for a Democrat."
In response to Reply # 83


          


If you don't vote for the Democrat in November, then you will have made the world a worse place.

And if you vote for Bernie in the primary, I'll forgive you, but you will have severely miscalculated.

We're here to think with our heads, not our emotions.

  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
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Tue Mar-01-16 03:45 PM

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155. "What in the fuck are you talking about?"
In response to Reply # 114


  

          

Do you honestly think someone who supported Bernie Sanders will be so butthurt that they turn around and vote for Trump? Or are you speaking to the possibility of a non-vote or independent vote?

I have, of course, never voted Republican in anything but at this point the field of candidates is so full of shit that I am not even sure that degree matters. Trump will not do even 10% of the crazy fucking things he is promising. They would only be possible in an outright dictatorship and one that was in upheaval at that. We have an oligarchy and a relatively strong semblance of a constitution still.

The most egregious manipulations that go on, largely but not entirely from the right, happen at the local and state levels with no fanfare anyway. And if we are concerned about a majority right legislature, well, what did Bill do to reign them in last time around? Generally speaking they treated him as they pleased and for what little resistance he offered they tried to ruin him. Hillary played an immense role in his presidency, obviously. Her time as Secretary of State hardly makes me think she will make us a less bellicose, less hated and less hateful country.

In short this "take one for team" attitude is a bunch of bullshit, and guilting people into the lesser of two evils is not going to "make the world a better place."

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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156. "You're emotional."
In response to Reply # 155


          

>Do you honestly think someone who supported Bernie Sanders
>will be so butthurt that they turn around and vote for Trump?
>Or are you speaking to the possibility of a non-vote or
>independent vote?

Obviously the latter.

There is a certain amount of polling showing people whose first and second choices, in one order or another, are Trump and Sanders. These are people who don't actually care about issues, obviously (though they may think they do). They just want to see an "outsider" who's "not beholden" or whatever stupid shit. But no, I wasn't referring to that.


So yes, if you fail to support the Democrat in November, then you will have made the world a worse place. I'm sorry if you feel shamed by that, but when you cool down I think you'll agree.

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
16347 posts
Sat Feb-27-16 08:51 PM

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16. "i might not vote for this chick if she gets the nom bro."
In response to Reply # 0


          

i cant think of any dem prez candidate in the past
that i ever felt like i was going against my good conscience
to vote for.
like i just dont want this chick to win ANYTHING lol.

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
382 posts
Sat Feb-27-16 09:28 PM

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18. "Here is one of Goldwater's racist campaign ads...."
In response to Reply # 0
Sat Feb-27-16 09:35 PM by Mansa Musa

          

...from 1964, the year Hillary campaigned for him:

http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/img/photos/2013/04/11/79/30/civilrights.jpg

Also, here is Goldwater attacking the Civil Rights Act of 1964:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tacJtYPHKiE

  

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rawsouthpaw
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Sat Feb-27-16 09:45 PM

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19. "that poster is wild"
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

  

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mikediggz
Member since Dec 02nd 2003
10145 posts
Sat Feb-27-16 10:10 PM

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20. "fam got the herman cain grin"
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Sat Feb-27-16 10:33 PM

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22. "Oh, you mean when she was seventeen years old."
In response to Reply # 18


          

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
79594 posts
Sat Feb-27-16 10:38 PM

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23. "Stop"
In response to Reply # 22


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Sat Feb-27-16 11:02 PM

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26. "Stop pointing out how ludicrous the political mythos in here is?"
In response to Reply # 23


          

No.

Are the Bernie fans gonna go digging for scandals in her high-school essays now?

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Sat Feb-27-16 11:19 PM

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29. "I've pointed to dozens of indefensible things she's done recently"
In response to Reply # 26
Sat Feb-27-16 11:20 PM by Mansa Musa

          

...from her role in lobbying to veto a UN resolution condemning Israel's illegal settlements, to her role in arms deals to regimes that donate to the Clinton Foundation, to her role in the 2009 Honduras coup, to her coziness with predatory lenders, and on and on and on.

The reason for bringing up her early volunteering for Goldwater is that she has ALWAYS been a military hawk, an opportunist on racial issues, and a rightward-tilting centrist on economic policy. That's the common thread running through her entire political history.

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Sat Feb-27-16 11:28 PM

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32. "Yeah, I guess the issue is,"
In response to Reply # 29


          


I don't have any reason to take anything you say seriously.

Your arguments in here remind me of all the time I've spent arguing with 9/11 truthers, global warming deniers, or evolution deniers. So unfortunately you and I will probably never see eye to eye. I'm okay with that.

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Sat Feb-27-16 11:49 PM

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33. "You're willing to rationalize everything she does"
In response to Reply # 32
Sun Feb-28-16 12:06 AM by Mansa Musa

          

Claiming the mantle of rationality while making excuses for countless exercises in poor judgment is bizarre.

But I guess only kooks like Elizabeth Warren, Michelle Alexander, and Robert Reich would find Hillary's record questionable.

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Sun Feb-28-16 12:17 AM

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35. "Neither Warren nor Reich finds her record "questionable." "
In response to Reply # 33


          


And neither of them has endorsed Bernie Sanders over her. Reich has said positive things about Bernie, but he's never said negative things about Hillary, and these days he corrects people when they say he's endorsed Bernie. Warren has said positive and mildly negative things about both of them over the years, but she's scrupulously avoided taking sides in the primary.

So I don't know if your assertion is just characteristic bernie-bro exaggeration, or if you're just too ensconced in the echo chamber to know that you were wrong. Probably one feeds the other.

  

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Jekyll_Hyde
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36. "Robert Reich officially endorsed Bernie Sanders yesterday"
In response to Reply # 35


          

He said if Hillay won the nomination, he would actively help her win the presidency but believes that Bernie Sanders is the agent of true change in the country.

Direct quote:

I endorse Bernie Sanders for President of the United States. He’s leading a movement to reclaim America for the many, not the few. And such a political mobilization – a “political revolution,” as he puts it -- is the only means by which we can get the nation back from the moneyed interests that now control so much of our economy and democracy.

This extraordinary concentration of income, wealth, and political power at the very top imperils all else – our economy, our democracy, the revival of the American middle class, the prospects for the poor and for people of color, the necessity of slowing and reversing climate change, and a sensible foreign policy not influenced by the “military-industrial complex,” as President Dwight Eisenhower once called it. It is the fundamental prerequisite: We have little hope of achieving positive change on any front unless the American people are once again in control.

I have the deepest respect and admiration for Hillary Clinton, and if she wins the Democratic primary I’ll work my heart out to help her become president. But I believe Bernie Sanders is the agent of change this nation so desperately needs.

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Sun Feb-28-16 12:29 AM

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38. "^^^^^^^^^"
In response to Reply # 36


          

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Sun Feb-28-16 12:57 AM

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40. "Disappointing. But again, "
In response to Reply # 36


          


he didn't claim her positions are "questionable" or insinuate that she's working for the banks.

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
382 posts
Sun Feb-28-16 01:16 AM

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42. "He doubted her willingness to.change the status quo..."
In response to Reply # 40


          

...and he also doubted the wisdom of her stance on Glass Steagall. I never said Reich accused Hillary of being a shill, although Warren did suggest lobbyists influenced her change of mind on the bankruptcy bill. So, you're attacking positions I never took. I also never said the three people I listed used the exact phrasing I did, which is why the word was not in quotes. It is a fact that all three found specific decisions she has made questionable, according to any reasonable definition of that word.

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Sun Feb-28-16 01:26 AM

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43. "By that standard, I've found specific decisions FDR made questionable, "
In response to Reply # 42


          


and I'm sure you have as well.

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Sun Feb-28-16 01:46 AM

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44. "Criticizing a long-dead president..."
In response to Reply # 43
Sun Feb-28-16 01:48 AM by Mansa Musa

          

...is nothing at all like publicly criticizing a politician while they are in office. Your analogy is absurd.

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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47. "You mean to say there weren't decisions, "
In response to Reply # 44


          


from the FDR administration, that a reasonable observer AT THE TIME would have found morally repugnant, politically expedient, and generally questionable? I can certainly think of a few.

  

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Mansa Musa
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49. "That's obvious. The Reich, Warren and Alexander criticisms..."
In response to Reply # 47


          

...of Clinton all had their equivalents at the time. If a Wilkie supporter had written during the 1940 election that X, Y,and Z public figure found Roosevelt's 1937 "court packing" plan or whatever questionable, the analogy would work better. (Never mind that the candidates and contexts are profoundly different.) But you seem to be suggesting that these contemporary criticisms of a public official, by prominent figures, don't hold political weight. But they do--they are strategically timed interventions in a live debate about someone in office.

  

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MiracleRic
Member since Oct 21st 2002
45200 posts
Mon Feb-29-16 09:57 AM

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85. "them pleas is enormous"
In response to Reply # 47


  

          

foresight is far too big a burden for politicians is basically what you are saying and that if they are cool in all those other areas...we might still love them later

that's a very shitty rationale

Let me sport my Air Hyperbole 2010s in peace. (c) ansomble

Building repetoires (c) spm since 1983

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Mon Feb-29-16 11:02 PM

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115. "The rationale is:"
In response to Reply # 85


          


Politics is brutal, and it's not the place for heroes. The people who change the world are not politicians. The politicians just steer the ship. But that doesn't mean they don't matter.

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Sun Feb-28-16 12:28 AM

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37. "Both have criticized her weak stance on Wall Street"
In response to Reply # 35
Sun Feb-28-16 12:28 AM by Mansa Musa

          

Reich says she's wrong on Glass-Steagall, and Warren publicly criticized her flip flop on the bankruptcy bill. She also criticized her closeness to Wall Street lobbyists. I never said they endorsed Sanders, although neither has endorsed Clinton either; you're putting words in my mouth.

  

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Mynoriti
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25. "Y'all gonna shit on Bern when he's out campaigning for her in 3 months?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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34. "None of these politicians (including Bernie) deserve a pass"
In response to Reply # 25
Sun Feb-28-16 12:12 AM by Mansa Musa

          

The problem is, we are being told to fall in line and not question the lesser evil. That's fundamentally anti-democratic, and encourages unjustified quiescence.

I agree with Bruce Dixon's critique of Bernie's potential "sheepdog" role in bringing in people who wouldn't otherwise vote for Hillary. He deserves critique insofar as he plays that role. But we shouldn't give Hillary a pass on her record or agenda out of fear of Trump. The most successful social movements have been harshly critical of whoever is in the White House:

Labor movement and FDR.

Civil rights movement and Eisenhower, Kennedy, and LBJ.

Environmental movement and Tricky Dick.

Yes, tactical alliances are necessary, but nothing changes when people are afraid of harming the lesser evil.

  

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Deacon Blues
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46. "RE: None of these politicians (including Bernie) deserve a pass"
In response to Reply # 34
Sun Feb-28-16 08:51 AM by Deacon Blues

  

          

>The problem is, we are being told to fall in line and not
>question the lesser evil. That's fundamentally
>anti-democratic, and encourages unjustified quiescence.
>
>I agree with Bruce Dixon's critique of Bernie's potential
>"sheepdog" role in bringing in people who wouldn't otherwise
>vote for Hillary. He deserves critique insofar as he plays
>that role. But we shouldn't give Hillary a pass on her record
>or agenda out of fear of Trump. The most successful social
>movements have been harshly critical of whoever is in the
>White House:
>
>Labor movement and FDR.
>
>Civil rights movement and Eisenhower, Kennedy, and LBJ.
>
>Environmental movement and Tricky Dick.
>
>Yes, tactical alliances are necessary, but nothing changes
>when people are afraid of harming the lesser evil.



I don't quite buy the sheepdog theory because what's the alternative run as a third party/ independent like Ralph Nader, how did that work out

Bernie has been consistent his whole life and he's playing a vital role of representing the liberal agenda

This shit ain't zero sum

With her problems Hillary is still better than anyone on the potential repug ticket

dude

  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
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130. "why wait? i have already started"
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

dude could make a difference and become an outside but he won't. he will tow the party line. it doesn't make a lot of sense to me because he is secure where he is and too old (among other things) to have serious ambition about cabinet positions or future runs.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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Amritsar
Member since Jan 18th 2008
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Sun Feb-28-16 10:31 AM

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50. "https://twitter.com/Quinnae_Moon/status/703809513179254785"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://twitter.com/Quinnae_Moon/status/703809513179254785

  

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Vex_id
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51. "Despite what Clinton stans purport - it's not about Bernard Sanders"
In response to Reply # 0
Sun Feb-28-16 10:44 AM by Vex_id

          

Many of those who support Sanders the most intensely are people who are just becoming aware of Sanders and his empowering message; an electorate which never really paid attention before 2008 - and now feel that their civic participation can actually matter. I've followed Sanders for decades as he's been a champion of widening the celebration of abundance and human rights in the North since he became mayor of Burlington - but it's not about him.

Even if Sanders loses the primary - his message has already won. It is the Sanders campaign that has harnessed the same energy that galvanized progressives in 2008 to defeat the Clinton machine and elect Obama (who has had an extraordinary and whole presidency) - and it is the energy surrounding the Sanders campaign that has the ability to take the baton and push the progressive boundaries even further, because of the foundation laid by the Obama Administration (particularly in its second term).

The problem in America right now is that the most energized voters are those on the hard-line right wing. They've been sold damaged goods and are convinced that beefing up the military-industrial complex will save them from "terrorists" and that immigrants are taking their jobs/resources --- they've been sold the scarcity model. The Sanders campaign is promoting an abundance model that while ambitious - is absolutely achievable if the political will is potent among the people. Clinton is built to keep the current status quo intact - and that's simply not good enough for a new wave of the electorate that is losing patience with the older generation and their failure to lead us into the abundant model of governance.

-->

  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
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Sun Feb-28-16 01:29 PM

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52. "LOL@MOST of my campaign contributions are $100 or less...HAHA!"
In response to Reply # 51


  

          

her SC victory speech was almost Bern verbatim.

if Bern loses, it's a small victory that he pushed her so far to the left

sadly, I don't expect her to follow through on anything she's saying

to her, they're just words.

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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AZ
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53. "Exactly"
In response to Reply # 52


          


>sadly, I don't expect her to follow through on anything she's
>saying
>
>to her, they're just words.

Just look at the Hilbot rationalizing in this post. There is nothing they are not ready to explain away. Policy and positions don't matter, only the candidate does for the Clinton supporters.

  

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Mynoriti
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54. "Clearly not. Seeing how all Bern heads seem to do is talk about Hillary"
In response to Reply # 51


  

          

Or react to any criticism of a Bernie proposal or difference in opinion with shit like "Oh you must be a Hillary stan!"

I think he has the right idea for change, and how government should actually operate and I hope it has legs and continues as well, but somewhere along the line the revolution has just turned into a bitch-fest, where it became less about his vision, and practically all about her. And i'm not only talking about this board. shit's gotten ridiculous.

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Sun Feb-28-16 03:31 PM

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55. "Political discourse in this country in general is too candidate-centered..."
In response to Reply # 54
Sun Feb-28-16 03:41 PM by Mansa Musa

          

...which plays into the personality-focused superficiality of our money-driven electoral system. Insofar as Sanders supporters play into that dynamic, I agree. But I'm not convinced that they have been any more focused on the rival candidate than their adversaries, given the endless deluge of anti-Bernie articles over the last six months (which mostly focus on Bernie supporters, but accuse Bernie of not being hard enough on them, etc.). The transparent pro-Clinton bias of outlets like the New York Times (just today the front page glorifies her role in Libya, with an absence of critical voices), contributes to defensiveness, particularly among those with principled objections to her foreign and domestic policies.

But I do agree that the Sanders vs. Hillary discourse is often petty, and tends to personalize debates that should be about structural issues, and what would be required to make progress on them. The absence of large-scale social movements, combined with social media, encourages people to substitute electronic debates for the organizing work required to pressure whoever is in office.

I don't think we should shut down criticism of the presumptive Democratic candidate's record and agenda, and I don't think pointing out real problems consistutes a "bitchfest," any more than the writing on Obama by people like Margaret Kimberley since 2008 constitutes that. We need a radical left that doesn't make excuses for Democrats. But I do I think you're absolutely right that we are dealing with structural problems, of which the candidates' flaws are symptoms rather than causes.

  

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Mynoriti
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56. "fair points n/m"
In response to Reply # 55


  

          

>...which plays into the personality-focused superficiality of
>our money-driven electoral system. Insofar as Sanders
>supporters play into that dynamic, I agree. But I'm not
>convinced that they have been any more focused on the rival
>candidate than their adversaries, given the endless deluge of
>anti-Bernie articles over the last six months (which mostly
>focus on Bernie supporters, but accuse Bernie of not being
>hard enough on them, etc.). The transparent pro-Clinton bias
>of outlets like the New York Times (just today the front page
>glorifies her role in Libya, with an absence of critical
>voices), contributes to defensiveness, particularly among
>those with principled objections to her foreign and domestic
>policies.
>
>But I do agree that the Sanders vs. Hillary discourse is often
>petty, and tends to personalize debates that should be about
>structural issues, and what would be required to make progress
>on them. The absence of large-scale social movements, combined
>with social media, encourages people to substitute electronic
>debates for the organizing work required to pressure whoever
>is in office.
>
>I don't think we should shut down criticism of the presumptive
>Democratic candidate's record and agenda, and I don't think
>pointing out real problems consistutes a "bitchfest," any more
>than the writing on Obama by people like Margaret Kimberley
>since 2008 constitutes that. We need a radical left that
>doesn't make excuses for Democrats. But I do I think you're
>absolutely right that we are dealing with structural problems,
>of which the candidates' flaws are symptoms rather than
>causes.

  

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tourgasm
Member since Sep 06th 2014
365 posts
Sun Feb-28-16 04:31 PM

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57. "Yeah, put your celebratory pom-poms down https://imgur.com/Zfa5630"
In response to Reply # 0


          

https://imgur.com/Zfa5630

  

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Mynoriti
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58. "^^anyone have an actual source for this info?"
In response to Reply # 57


  

          

>https://imgur.com/Zfa5630

besides a chart someone with 16 posts pulled off of reddit?


  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
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59. "pledged delegates; HRC = 91, Bern = 65, it's right, good luck finding a"
In response to Reply # 58
Sun Feb-28-16 05:21 PM by bentagain

  

          

a source only reporting pledged delegates though

not sure where the exact discrepancy is for those couple of delegates...? Maybe all of the SC results weren't in yet when the meme was generated...? Right sentiment though.

Iowa

Clinton: 23

Sanders: 21

New Hampshire

Clinton: 9

Sanders: 15

Nevada

Clinton: 20

Sanders: 15

South Carolina

Clinton: 39

Sanders: 14

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/us/elections/primary-calendar-and-results.html

they were tied at 51 going into SC

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/22/us/politics/delegate-count-leaving-bernie-sanders-with-steep-climb.html

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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Mynoriti
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60. "thanks. "
In response to Reply # 59


  

          

You'd think there'd be some kid of official source instead of a bunch of articles. Maybe there is but i couldn't find one.
i had only found this but it was from a week ago

http://heavy.com/news/2016/02/democratic-primary-caucus-results-delegate-standings-leaders-president-whos-ahead/

Delegate Count 2,382 Needed to Win
HIllary Clinton 500
Bernie Sanders 70

Here’s a look at the state of the race:
Pledged Delegates: Race Tied, But Clinton Favored
Pledged Delegates
Hillary Clinton 51
Bernie Sanders 51

Clinton and Sanders are tied in the count of “pledged” delegates, or those required to vote for a candidate as a result of their state primary or caucus. Here’s how it got that way:
Iowa Popular Vote Delegates
Hillary Clinton 49.9% 23
Bernie Sanders 49.6% 21

  

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Vex_id
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69. "Earned delegates should be what people are paying attention to right now"
In response to Reply # 60
Sun Feb-28-16 06:21 PM by Vex_id

          

but of course - the delegate math has widely been reported in lopsided fashion (much to the DNC's pleasure) to account for pledged delegates while widely discounting the earned delegate process.

After Nevada - both Sanders & Clinton were tied at 51 (as you correctly pointed out). Clinton now leads in the earned delegate count - but with the way it was being reported, you would've thought that Clinton was blowing Sanders out of the water with earned delegates - which is not happening.

-->

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Sun Feb-28-16 06:48 PM

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71. "RE: Earned delegates should be what people are paying attention to right..."
In response to Reply # 69


          


>After Nevada - both Sanders & Clinton were tied at 51 (as you
>correctly pointed out). Clinton now leads in the earned
>delegate count - but with the way it was being reported, you
>would've thought that Clinton was blowing Sanders out of the
>water with earned delegates - which is not happening.


It will though....


From FiveThirtyEight

"What’s worse for Sanders — of the 865 delegates up for grabs Tuesday, 66 percent come from these six states. An average of polls in each state1 gives Clinton at least a 23 percentage point lead in all of them. These include the two biggest prizes of Super Tuesday: Georgia (102 delegates) where Clinton is up by 39 percentage points and Texas (222 delegates) where Clinton is up by 29 percentage points. If the delegates from these states broke perfectly proportionally based on the polling average, Clinton would end up with a 369 to 202 delegate lead.

In the other six Super Tuesday contests, Sanders has a clear lead in only Vermont, and the candidates are likely to split the delegates in the other five contests fairly evenly. That means that on Super Tuesday, Clinton is likely to win around 508 delegates and Sanders 357.

It’s difficult to oversell how big that lead is. Not only will media be filled with “Clinton Wins Big” headlines, but the way that delegates are awarded in Democratic primaries (proportionally) makes it a tall task to come back from a 100+ delegate deficit. You can’t just win; you have to win big. No one knows this better than Clinton herself; she barely touched Barack Obama’s delegate lead in March and April 2008, even after winning in big states like Ohio, Pennsylvania and Texas. So even if Sanders were to win in states like Wisconsin by a few percentage points, it wouldn’t be enough."

link: http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/south-carolina-primary-results-2016-democrat-clinton-sanders/

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
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Tue Mar-01-16 10:38 AM

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132. "pure scare tactic, do people really think SDs would betray popular vote?"
In response to Reply # 69


  

          

like, OK, the people have spoken and now we are telling them to shut the fuck up. it would be unprecedented and totally damning to the credibility of a party. but the prospect of such an unlikely event served its purpose.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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tourgasm
Member since Sep 06th 2014
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Sun Feb-28-16 05:47 PM

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62. "Its simple math. Post count shouldn't matter numnut..."
In response to Reply # 58


          

But you know, its easier being lazy and attacking instead of researching on your own.

You voting for Hillary or Trump?

Moron.

Here's a wiki for you instead.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries,_2016

  

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Mynoriti
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65. "LOL hurt ass. And your wiki link just proved my fucking point"
In response to Reply # 62


  

          

The chart you shared conveniently cuts off at pledged delegates to make it look like all things are equal

here's another chart. do you believe this one too?
http://tinyurl.com/olooaf3
someone made it a chart so it must be true, right?

Thanks for finally sharing an actual souce tho

  

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tourgasm
Member since Sep 06th 2014
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Sun Feb-28-16 06:18 PM

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68. "I literally cringe at how some of you weirdos communicate"
In response to Reply # 65


          

Hurt ass? seriously?

Sour human being, you had no point

  

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Mynoriti
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70. "still nothing huh?"
In response to Reply # 68


  

          

thanks again for the link.

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Sun Feb-28-16 05:30 PM

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61. "Vice: Repugs Are Trying to Use Bernie to Undermine Hillary Clinton (SWIP..."
In response to Reply # 0
Sun Feb-28-16 05:56 PM by murph71

          




VICE
Republicans Are Trying to Use Bernie Sanders to Undermine Hillary Clinton
By Liz Fields


February 28, 2016 | 1:35 pm
What do democratic socialists and right-wing conservatives have in common in 2016? They both want Bernie Sanders to win his party's presidential nomination, even if the likelihood of that outcome is diminishing by day.

Sanders, a 74-year-old senator from Vermont, has surprised pundits on both the left and right with his insurgent campaign. In recent weeks, conservatives have been as enthusiastic about touting Sanders as they have been about vilifying his rival Hillary Clinton, who last night swept the South Carolina Democratic primary with more than 73 percent of the vote.

This week on the campaign trail, Republican presidential contenders and their surrogates separately complimented Sanders at events held within 30 hours of the Nevada GOP caucuses on Wednesday evening. Three days earlier, Sanders lost the Democratic caucuses in the Silver State, but conservatives appeared to appreciate his populist appeal during their stump speeches, and are still hoping the senator can capture just enough support from Clinton to hurt the frontrunner in a general election against the ultimate GOP nominee.

After the Democratic caucuses in Nevada, Republican National Committee (RNC) Chairman Reince Priebus released a statement that referenced Sanders undermining Clinton.

Related: Cornel West Says Civil Rights Leaders That Support Hillary Clinton Have Lost Their Way

"A prolonged nominating contest where Hillary Clinton is forced to outflank a self-avowed socialist will only make it easier for Republicans to recapture the White House," Priebus said.

At a small Ted Cruz event at a northern Las Vegas YMCA the day before the Nevada caucus, two speakers who spoke ahead of Cruz both nodded toward the Sanders campaign. Conservative talk show host Glenn Beck gave a particularly meandering, sermon-like spiel to open the event. At one point, when Beck remarked that Sanders was right to push for equal justice, many in the audience appeared to be perplexed. Later, the crowd relaxed into nervous laughter when Beck finally said he did not agree with Sanders's plan to fix the country.

"Bernie Sanders is connecting with a lot of people because he has diagnosed the problem," Beck said. "His solution is poppycock, but what he says is the problem is exactly right. When they talk about fairness what they're really saying to America is equal justice.

"I want to know that if I'm at the bottom of the ladder, I have the same chance to make it as the guy at the top of the ladder," he added.

Cruz's second speaker, Adam Laxalt, Nevada's attorney general, recognized that "even Bernie Sanders is tapping that same sentiment" of anti-establishment politics. That sentiment has helped propel frontrunner Donald Trump to win three of four early voting states in Republican contests.

link: https://news.vice.com/article/republicans-are-trying-to-use-bernie-sanders-to-undermine-hillary-clinton

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Sun Feb-28-16 05:53 PM

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63. "Now they're using the "Sanders is a Republican stooge" gambit"
In response to Reply # 61
Sun Feb-28-16 05:55 PM by Mansa Musa

          

Clinton also has many Republican fans (hello, Mr. Kissinger). It's easy to cherry-pick examples of Republicans hoping that either Clinton or Sanders get the nomination, and then to come up with wild theories. Matt Taibbi and others have expressed concern that a lot of Dems will stay home when Hillary gets the nomination; this is no less plausible than the "Sanders will be red-baited into oblivion" narrative. Hillary will almost certainly get the nomination, but I suspect a lot of Republicans fear her less than her supporters think.

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Sun Feb-28-16 06:04 PM

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64. "RE: Now they're using the "Sanders is a Republican stooge&q..."
In response to Reply # 63
Sun Feb-28-16 06:07 PM by murph71

          

Nah...don't think it's that simple. THEY r not using anything...VICE is a more liberal leaning outlet that has been more open to Bernie in its coverage...They usually fuck with Bernie over Clinton....

It would sort of be comparable to FOX News reporting that Trump has been unfairly tagged with the criticism over not releasing his taxes (never happened, but u get my point...)...FOX is not the biggest fan of Trump (to put it mildly)...So if u see FOX making such a comment it would speak volumes...

Well, same with VICE.....

BTW...Clinton has scarce fans on the GOP side....She's been public enemy no. 1 for the last 20 plus years....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Sun Feb-28-16 06:10 PM

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66. "Vice is libertarian and in favor of "small government""
In response to Reply # 64


          

Like libertarians in general, VICE appears "liberal" on issues like the drug war, abortion, and prostitution, but they're close to the GOP on government regulations, taxes, and social programs. In other words, they're like a Williamsburg hipster who doesn't want the government to tax and regulate his after-hours speakeasy, and doesn't want conservatives to judge his cocaine and hookers.

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Sun Feb-28-16 06:15 PM

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67. "RE: Vice is libertarian and in favor of "small government""
In response to Reply # 66


          

>Like libertarians in general, VICE appears "liberal" on
>issues like the drug war, abortion, and prostitution, but
>they're close to the GOP on government regulations, taxes, and
>social programs.


I go by their coverage...They have been a lot more favorable to Bernie than Clinton....That's all I'm saying....

>In other words, they're like a Williamsburg
>hipster who doesn't want the government to tax and regulate
>his after-hours speakeasy, and doesn't want conservatives to
>judge his cocaine and hookers.

This ^^^^^ fits with MOST liberals I know...lol

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Sun Feb-28-16 10:58 PM

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77. "lol"
In response to Reply # 66


          

you are on a ROLL

  

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Shaun Tha Don
Member since Nov 19th 2005
18289 posts
Mon Feb-29-16 08:06 PM

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107. "LOL"
In response to Reply # 66


          

Rest In Peace, Bad News Brown

  

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DeepAztheRoot
Member since Dec 19th 2003
13992 posts
Sun Feb-28-16 09:39 PM

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72. "Hillary is an opportunist and flip flopper like Romney"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Dick Cheney in a pantsuit when it comes to foreign policy

and a crony corporate shill as much as Bush ever was

she doesn't stand for anything but lining her own pocket

<-Fear Ameer

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Sun Feb-28-16 09:46 PM

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73. "And just to be clear, you'd say the same about Barack Obama, right? "
In response to Reply # 72


          

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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74. "RE: And just to be clear, you'd say the same about Barack Obama, right? "
In response to Reply # 73


          




It's amazing....Its almost like folks forget that ALL these people are politicians....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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75. "I'm not necessarily even accusing him of that. "
In response to Reply # 74


          


A lot of people around here really WOULD say the same about Barack Obama. I just wanna clarify for the scorecards.

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Mon Feb-29-16 01:43 AM

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78. "I can't believe you feel for that."
In response to Reply # 75
Mon Feb-29-16 01:45 AM by denny

          

Any critique of Hillary is also a critique of Obama.
I'll try to meet you head on.....

Of course Obama is a corporate shill. The reality of current America is that it's impossible to be elected president WITHOUT being a corporate shill. That's the problem. Maybe he's 'less' of a corporate shill than Mitt Romney but that just shows that the goal posts aren't where they're supposed to be.

I don't know what kinda definition of 'corporate shill' you have that doesn't involve taking money from corporations in exchange for preferential treatment in policy....but I'm sure you have one. lol You think they gave him millions of dollars for the fun of it?

The system is corrupt. Obama is part of the system. We're all gonna be better off if we change the system. But you insist on invoking Obama's name in defence of the system and then lumping any critique of him into the race-based attacks we're all familiar with. Thereby dismissing them from the get-go. 'Obama took corporate money too'. It frusterates me endlessly that this actually worked. Instead of imagining a world where Obama wouldn't HAVE TO....we defend the status quo and dismiss any new ideas as being 'anti-obama'.

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Mon Feb-29-16 10:25 AM

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91. "RE: I can't believe you feel for that."
In response to Reply # 78
Mon Feb-29-16 10:26 AM by murph71

          


If that's the case, if u were in the States, you wouldn't vote for ANYONE, Denny...lol

Real revolutions are bloody. Unless folks are not prepared to truly go out in these streets, march in DC and on the lawn of the White House, then what r we talking about here....?

There's change (working from within the system and picking up gains over the course of decades) and then there's revolution (civil rights era protest, sit-ins, church bombings, death, etc...)...

Also, Bernie doesn't get a pass. When he voted for that corporate fueled crime bill he did so because he couldn't go home to his mostly white voters in Vermont without backing that bill....Bernie is a politician just like everyone else. And I'm fine with that....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Mon Feb-29-16 01:32 PM

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100. "real talk... Obama was great for US and what he represented"
In response to Reply # 78
Mon Feb-29-16 01:34 PM by legsdiamond

          

but at the same time, there is a lot of shit WE don't like about Obama.

Wall St. wasn't prosecuted properly, banks weren't held accountable, income gap is wider than ever, drones, endless wars, lobbyist, lack of transparency, etc.

all that being said, what he represented to black folks IMO trumps all the shit he failed at getting done or didn't even attempt to get done.

So for Hillary, those who want her to be the first woman or continue Obama's policies... I get it.

However, for me... if I'm being completely honest I think Black folk will prolly do no better or maybe even worse under Clinton.

For those who think being the first woman is worth all that I say more power to them.

For those who say they don't want a Repub in the WH... I get that too.

I feel like after 8 years of Obama ain't shit getting done with Clinton and I expect her to compromise on a lot of stuff due to the GOP owning the House and causing gridlock in the Senate.

Besides the Supreme Court I really see the Pres as a figurehead right now.

...and honestly, I don't like Hillary, she is a liar and has a history of shitting on Black people. But whatever, I will love regardless of who wins the WH.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Mon Feb-29-16 11:15 PM

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116. "RE: I can't believe you feel for that."
In response to Reply # 78


          

>Any critique of Hillary is also a critique of Obama.
>I'll try to meet you head on.....
>
>Of course Obama is a corporate shill.

*updates database*, as they say.

>The reality of current
>America is that it's impossible to be elected president
>WITHOUT being a corporate shill.

Pause for a second, please, and realize that this means one of two things about Bernie Sanders.


>That's the problem. Maybe
>he's 'less' of a corporate shill than Mitt Romney

And I hope you agree that's a good thing, and a good reason to vote for him over Mitt Romney.

>but that
>just shows that the goal posts aren't where they're supposed
>to be.

Then do something about it. This idea of electing a Republican for President doesn't seem to be working.

>I don't know what kinda definition of 'corporate shill' you
>have that doesn't involve taking money from corporations in
>exchange for preferential treatment in policy....but I'm sure
>you have one. lol You think they gave him millions of dollars
>for the fun of it?
>
>The system is corrupt. Obama is part of the system. We're
>all gonna be better off if we change the system. But you
>insist on invoking Obama's name in defence of the system and
>then lumping any critique of him into the race-based attacks
>we're all familiar with.

I'm not lumping shit. I really do think Barack Obama has been one of the greatest Presidents of modern American history, and I would have thought, considering what the mood was like around here in 2008, or considering the issues that OKPs generally care about, that this wouldn't be such a controversial position. The fact that you want to call him a corporate shill, even a not-so-bad corporate shill, sounds really fucking childish to me. And the fact that you think we should act out that kind of tantrum by electing a Republican is frankly disturbing.

  

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DeepAztheRoot
Member since Dec 19th 2003
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Sun Feb-28-16 10:33 PM

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76. "less so, although his foreign policy sucks"
In response to Reply # 73
Sun Feb-28-16 10:42 PM by DeepAztheRoot

  

          

not that it matters, Dems only care about war when a Republican is in office

I would say it even less about Bernie or Gary Johnson

I believe the Romney comparison is a good one, she is the one that is chosen but it's a mediocre, lukewarm, uninspiring one to the voting masses

It's almost a "Do we have to vote for her? Well I suppose it's better than the other side" ...much like Repubs were when the RNC wanted people to rally around Mittens

they know that nothing will change and it's just another in a long line of shitty corporate puppets

<-Fear Ameer

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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98. ""she doesn't stand for anything but lining her own pocket""
In response to Reply # 72


  

          

I don't agree with this simply because, she just isn't that rich.

I don't think either of the Clinton's made that much money until after they left the whitehouse and though they did make some money and they did become rich they didn't become THAT rich.

That is, they could have parlayed "Being Clintons" into being worth half a billion dollars easily. Now I think they are in the 20M~ range. Not chump change but peanuts compared to your average hedgefund cat.



Same goes for the Dick Cheney in Pants suit. How the comparison?



I think the Clinton's are left leaning opportunist who don't fight losing battles are ride the wave of public sentiments. The 90s the winds were blowing rightwards. In the 2010s the winds are blowing leftward.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Mon Feb-29-16 01:40 PM

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101. "smh, you been wrong as fuck lately bruh... they are worth 100+ mill"
In response to Reply # 98


          

Hillary is worth 31 mill and Bill is worth 80 mill...

and who knows how much they have hidden in their "charity"

I swear, some of y'all have no idea Wtf is going on.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Government Name
Member since Dec 16th 2005
23190 posts
Mon Feb-29-16 09:18 AM

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79. "im voting Bernie but a lot of this anti-Clinton rhetoric is ridiculous"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

there are obvious criticisms and legit reasons not to support her, but when some of this things are positioned like "tear-downs" it just looks almost naive and unfamiliar w/ politics in general.

________
http://twitter.com/aehorton
http://instagram.com/aehorton

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Mon Feb-29-16 09:36 AM

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80. "RE: im voting Bernie but a lot of this anti-Clinton rhetoric is ridiculo..."
In response to Reply # 79
Mon Feb-29-16 09:45 AM by murph71

          

>there are obvious criticisms and legit reasons not to support
>her, but when some of this things are positioned like
>"tear-downs" it just looks almost naive and unfamiliar w/
>politics in general.


Just let them get it out of their system...There's a lot of stuff I could say about Bernie...A lot of real issues that no one is bringing up that would hurt him in a general election....Hell, some of the same criticism people are throwing Clinton's way I said about her in 2008 when she was running against Obeezy...

But she showed me that she was 'bout it when she told her followers to support Obama's general run (people don't remember...Clinton's followers were saying a lot of the same shit BernieBros/Girls are saying now: NOT GOING TO VOTE FOR HIM; HE CAN'T WIN THE GENERAL; DON'T LIKE THE WAY OBAMA'S TEAM TREATED HILLARY....Clinton could have easily taken the ball home and sulked like a bitch....)

Clinton swallowed her pride and joined Obama's team when HE put in that call. That's good enough for me. When u got a loudmouth running around afraid to distance himself from the Klan, for me, I know who I'm voting for in the general...



GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Lurkmode
Member since May 07th 2011
5187 posts
Mon Feb-29-16 09:51 AM

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82. "RE: im voting Bernie but a lot of this anti-Clinton rhetoric is ridiculo..."
In response to Reply # 80


  

          


>
>But she showed me that she was 'bout it when she told her
>followers to support Obama's general run (people don't
>remember...Clinton's followers were saying a lot of the same
>shit BernieBros/Girls are saying now: NOT GOING TO VOTE FOR
>HIM; HE CAN'T WIN THE GENERAL; DON'T LIKE THE WAY OBAMA'S TEAM
>TREATED HILLARY....Clinton could have easily taken the ball
>home and sulked like a bitch....)
>
>Clinton swallowed her pride and joined Obama's team when HE
>put in that call. That's good enough for me. When u got a
>loudmouth running around afraid to distance himself from the
>Klan, for me, I know who I'm voting for in the general...
>
>
>

Obamas donors paid her campaign debt.

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
23113 posts
Mon Feb-29-16 10:01 AM

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86. "RE: im voting Bernie but a lot of this anti-Clinton rhetoric is ridiculo..."
In response to Reply # 82


          

>
>>
>>But she showed me that she was 'bout it when she told her
>>followers to support Obama's general run (people don't
>>remember...Clinton's followers were saying a lot of the same
>>shit BernieBros/Girls are saying now: NOT GOING TO VOTE FOR
>>HIM; HE CAN'T WIN THE GENERAL; DON'T LIKE THE WAY OBAMA'S
>TEAM
>>TREATED HILLARY....Clinton could have easily taken the ball
>>home and sulked like a bitch....)
>>
>>Clinton swallowed her pride and joined Obama's team when HE
>>put in that call. That's good enough for me. When u got a
>>loudmouth running around afraid to distance himself from the
>>Klan, for me, I know who I'm voting for in the general...
>>
>>
>>
>
>Obamas donors paid her campaign debt.


Gotta love them conspiracies.....I guess that's why she joined his team...Yeah...that makes sense....lol

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Lurkmode
Member since May 07th 2011
5187 posts
Mon Feb-29-16 10:06 AM

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88. "RE: im voting Bernie but a lot of this anti-Clinton rhetoric is ridiculo..."
In response to Reply # 86


  

          

Not a conspiracy, just saying she had a reason to join his team. That and her future Prez run.

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Mon Feb-29-16 10:17 AM

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90. "RE: im voting Bernie but a lot of this anti-Clinton rhetoric is ridiculo..."
In response to Reply # 88


          

>Not a conspiracy, just saying she had a reason to join his
>team. That and her future Prez run.

Clinton joined Obeezy because 1) she wanted to bring her supporters to the Obama coalition to ensure a Democratic win and 2) she had her eye on the bigger picture....

This is chess not checkers....Of course Hillary Clinton's wheels were spinning for a future Presidential run...Clinton is a politician....Just like Obama (who only started to support gay marriage when it became convenient)....THEY ARE ALL FLIP FLOPPERS AND POLITICIANS...If Joe Biden was running I would be pushing for him too.

The question is do you trust a candidate to stay with the Obama doctrine, make some tweaks and get a left leaning/moderate Supreme Court justice judge in there or someone who seems to say the first thing that comes to his head (Trump) and is so shook to not piss off his racist ass base....?

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Lurkmode
Member since May 07th 2011
5187 posts
Mon Feb-29-16 10:59 AM

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93. "RE: im voting Bernie but a lot of this anti-Clinton rhetoric is ridiculo..."
In response to Reply # 90


  

          

>>Not a conspiracy, just saying she had a reason to join his
>>team. That and her future Prez run.
>
>Clinton joined Obeezy because 1) she wanted to bring her
>supporters to the Obama coalition to ensure a Democratic win
>and 2) she had her eye on the bigger picture....
>

and 3) They cut a Obama donors pay off her campaign debt.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/06/25/obama.clinton.debt/index.html

>This is chess not checkers....Of course Hillary Clinton's
>wheels were spinning for a future Presidential run...Clinton
>is a politician....Just like Obama (who only started to
>support gay marriage when it became convenient)....THEY ARE
>ALL FLIP FLOPPERS AND POLITICIANS...If Joe Biden was running I
>would be pushing for him too.
>

This is politics not chess, rules constantly changing.
The Clintons and Trump are on another level of flip flopping.

>The question is do you trust a candidate to stay with the
>Obama doctrine, make some tweaks and get a left
>leaning/moderate Supreme Court justice judge in there or
>someone who seems to say the first thing that comes to his
>head (Trump) and is so shook to not piss off his racist ass
>base....?
>

I doubt she will do any of that but she will do better than Trump.

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Mon Feb-29-16 11:03 AM

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94. "RE: im voting Bernie but a lot of this anti-Clinton rhetoric is ridiculo..."
In response to Reply # 93


          


>I doubt she will do any of that but she will do better than
>Trump.

Gee...Ya think?

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Lurkmode
Member since May 07th 2011
5187 posts
Mon Feb-29-16 11:09 AM

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95. "RE: im voting Bernie but a lot of this anti-Clinton rhetoric is ridiculo..."
In response to Reply # 94


  

          

>
>>I doubt she will do any of that but she will do better than
>>Trump.
>
>Gee...Ya think?


Ask Bill Clinton

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BigReg
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Mon Feb-29-16 09:42 AM

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81. "Is Hilary being a flip-flopper a bad thing?"
In response to Reply # 0
Mon Feb-29-16 10:37 AM by BigReg

  

          

considering her base is now the most galvanized group in the Democratic party; true progressive liberals (not that anti-gay, I have some hispanic friends but she better bring one home, its a damn shame those police are beating those darkies moderate democrats) she's pretty much forced to pander to them solely.

Obama was a good symbol for the right to trot out, but while they were frustrated there wasn't that virulent H-A-T-E that Hilary has. There's no where for her to flip flop, she's forced to ride this progressive train because this is it for her...if she wants the Clinton dynasty and legacy to play out this is the side she has to be on despite whatever she may personally believe


Long story short; we have her where we want her.

  

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Lurkmode
Member since May 07th 2011
5187 posts
Mon Feb-29-16 09:55 AM

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84. "Yes"
In response to Reply # 81


  

          

>considering her base is now the most galvanized group in the
>Democratic party is actual progressive liberals (not that
>anti-gay, I have some hispanic friends but she better bring
>one home, its a damn shame those police are beating those
>darkies moderate democrats) she's pretty much forced to pander
>to them solely.
>
>Obama was a good symbol for the right to trot out, but while
>they were frustrated there wasn't that virulent H-A-T-E that
>Hilary has. There's no where for her to flip flop, she's
>forced to ride this progressive train because this is it for
>her...if she wants the Clinton dynasty and legacy to play out
>this is the side she has to be on despite whatever she may
>personally believe
>
>
>Long story short; we have her where we want her. Arguably
>more hated in the right then Obama was, she's all but forced
>to downplay
>

Could end up with a Bill Clinton where she signs anything to get a 2nd term.

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
23113 posts
Mon Feb-29-16 10:07 AM

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89. "RE: Yes"
In response to Reply # 84


          


>Could end up with a Bill Clinton where she signs anything to
>get a 2nd term.


With the diverse, minority heavy demographics we have now in the US that's not going to happen....

Bernie has done his job...He has pushed Clinton further left...There's no flip flopping from that because there's more of US than there is of them....She would not win a second term doing that....

But let's worry about the Dems winning this general election...That is, for folks who are voting Democrat....


GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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BigReg
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Mon Feb-29-16 10:49 AM

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92. "Maybe. But the odds that's going to be a neo-con agenda is rare"
In response to Reply # 84


  

          

She's forced to be the face of the left because they are the only ones that will support her.

Obama felt he could 'bridge the gap' his first four years and found push back on even conservative leaning legislation just because his name is on it. There is no such naivete on her end.

It's like if politics have gotten so cynical and divided; isn't she the best person for the job?

  

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Lurkmode
Member since May 07th 2011
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Mon Feb-29-16 11:14 AM

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96. "RE: Maybe. But the odds that's going to be a neo-con agenda is rare"
In response to Reply # 92


  

          

>She's forced to be the face of the left because they are the
>only ones that will support her.
>

Maybe

>Obama felt he could 'bridge the gap' his first four years and
>found push back on even conservative leaning legislation just
>because his name is on it. There is no such naivete on her
>end.
>

True

>It's like if politics have gotten so cynical and divided;
>isn't she the best person for the job?
>

Depends on who she is running against for that second term.

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MiracleRic
Member since Oct 21st 2002
45200 posts
Mon Feb-29-16 10:06 AM

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87. "yes"
In response to Reply # 81


  

          

Let me sport my Air Hyperbole 2010s in peace. (c) ansomble

Building repetoires (c) spm since 1983

  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
71387 posts
Mon Feb-29-16 12:02 PM

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97. "i get what you're saying but you're overlooking something critical"
In response to Reply # 81
Mon Feb-29-16 12:03 PM by ConcreteCharlie

  

          

now more than ever, policy is insulated from politics. we can control what she says, but not what she does, so this ostensible leverage over her by her base means absolutely fucking nothing. Even vis-a-vis a second term, what could she as the incumbent that would swing far-left lefties toward a fucking Republican in 2020? What you're saying makes sense on the surface but in reality it means nothing, not a knock on you, just saying as a casual observation it's great but it lacks impact/substance.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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Mon Feb-29-16 01:01 PM

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99. "I am with you. in the 90s the prevailing winds were blowing rightward. "
In response to Reply # 81


  

          

Folks forget how big of a deal it was for a democrat to win the whitehouse, and the Clinton's believed they had to lurch Rightward to do it (which was probably true). Bill Didn't disavow being the Southern Bubba.

I think in their hearts they are left leaning but they will ride the wave and the wave is currently leftward.

I don't know how long that will last but I think folks have a point that if those winds change in 4 years...



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
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Mon Feb-29-16 02:13 PM

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102. "If that is the way the wind is blowing,let no one say I do not also blow..."
In response to Reply # 99
Mon Feb-29-16 02:13 PM by ConcreteCharlie

  

          

(c) Diamond Joe Quimby.

Bill Clinton had to compromise left and right with the very aggressive Gingrich gang but he did a pretty shitty job of it in the end. He lost way more ground than it appeared, to the point where in hindsight I question anything more than the accidental successes of his presidency (tech boom, Republicans' over-zealousness that redeemed his image, etc). Certainly I question Hillary given her pedigree and also given her record as a senator in what were important years for ideological battles in the U.S.

I just can't see being fickle, venal and unprincipled as redeeming qualities, sorry.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
79594 posts
Mon Feb-29-16 03:52 PM

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103. "pardon my ignorance... i was real self involved during the clinton years"
In response to Reply # 102


          

what exactly did Clinton do besides play the sax, fuck and throw mad Niggas in jail, pass Nafta and cut back on welfare?

I know he balanced the budget but you have to give the GOP some credit for that.

what exactly did Clinton do for Black people that make us love them so much?

I know he was slick and a great politician but man, it really feels like we got the shaft during his time in office but somehow he was our guy.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Mon Feb-29-16 04:28 PM

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104. "RE: pardon my ignorance... i was real self involved during the clinton y..."
In response to Reply # 103
Mon Feb-29-16 04:38 PM by murph71

          



>what exactly did Clinton do for Black people that make us love them so much?

Jobs...

B. Clinton was able to get the unemployment rate down for black folk from 13 percent to 8 percent (I believe that might by the lowest rate since that stat was recorded...Somebody check that info out for me....I read it some years ago, but I might be wrong...)...

That's the main reason Clinton got away with that bullshit crime bill and welfare reform as he was trying to scoop up votes from the right and win the White House for the Dems for the first time in over a decade...Because the black middle class actually expanded. And there is always that I-got-mine, not-worried-about-yours frame of mind.......So for a lot of folks it didn't matter that some poorer blacks got shitted on. Human nature...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Mon Feb-29-16 05:31 PM

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105. "Clinton's worst crime, by far, was banking deregulation "
In response to Reply # 103


          

Clinton's signing signing of the Financial Services Modernization Act in 1999, which critics called the "Citigroup Authorization Act," repealed the Depression-era firewall between commercial and investment banks. This enabled the consolidation of eight "too big to fail" mega-banks, which could crash the global economy.

In 2000, Clinton signed the Commodity Futures Modernization Act, which deregulated the swaps and derivatives market. This opened the door for the mega-banks to mass-market predatory, adjustable-rate subprime mortgages that led to mass home foreclosures in low-income communities from Detroit to Sacramento and Stockton.

Worse, the CFMA allowed banks to sell fraudulent "credit default" swaps to municipalities to finance their pensions and other obligations. When the market crashed in 2008, these bad swap deals led to a massive increase in debt service from municipalities to the banks. This played a direct role in the bankruptcy of Detroit and other cities.

Clinton did all this at the urging by his Treasury Secretary, Robert E. Rubin, who spent 26 years at Goldman Sachs, and who proceeded to make a killing off deregulation at Citigroup in the Bush years. He was also egged on by Larry Summers, who suceeded Rubin at Treasury, and who also made a killing as a hedge funder operator (and in speaking fees) after leaving office. Then Summers became one of Obama's top economic advisors.

Yes, Bush made things worse. But Clinton opened the door wide open for these thieves. The larger problem is that we have a revolving door between Wall Street and the White House, which enables these thieves to enrich themselves and escape punishment. This revolving door is why, while the mega-banks got bailed out (and are now bigger than ever), there was no real prosecution or assistance to low-income people losing their homes in the Obama years. Dodd-Frank is full of holes punched by their lobbyists, and they are very likely to crash the global economy again, and keep getting bailed out while the rest of us see austerity, budget cuts, and school closings.

  

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MiracleRic
Member since Oct 21st 2002
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Tue Mar-01-16 11:43 AM

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138. "^^^^^THIS x 1000^^^^"
In response to Reply # 105


  

          

Let me sport my Air Hyperbole 2010s in peace. (c) ansomble

Building repetoires (c) spm since 1983

  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
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Mon Feb-29-16 09:09 PM

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109. "he also deregulated banks and tried to fuck consumers."
In response to Reply # 103


  

          

again this was a group effort and occasionally he did veto some fucked-up shit but nahhhhh, dude is one of the most overrated presidents but certainly not overrated as a politician. dude had a way of looking at you and delivering his line that was just smooth as fuck.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Mon Feb-29-16 09:33 PM

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111. "Yeah. His deregulation led straight to the subprime meltdown."
In response to Reply # 109


          

And he did it all because he was advised by people like Robert Rubin and Larry Summers, who got fabulously wealthy as a result of their time at Treasury.

  

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rob
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Mon Feb-29-16 05:51 PM

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106. "It would be really hard for a president with credibility/conviction to g..."
In response to Reply # 81


  

          

She's going to have a really rough time when both are in doubt.

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Mon Feb-29-16 11:56 PM

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118. "Not for me."
In response to Reply # 81


          

Frankly, I don't agree with the majority of the attacks that have been levied against her in the past couple weeks. I really don't care what she did when she was a teenager. I acknowledge that my preference for Bernie IS a single-issue thing. The ONLY reason I don't support her in the nomination is because she will carry on with the same conservative economic policies of Obama. The quality of life is dropping pretty fast and I think something drastic has to happen. Specifically, more socialism.

But obviously, she will be LESS conservative in regards to economic policy than any GOP candidate so I will stand firmly behind her when that time comes. All of these accusations of flip-flopping are irrelevant to me to be honest. I supported Obama and I'll support Clinton too. I don't think there's that much substantially different between the two. Neither come even close to serving up as much socialism I think is needed. Hopefully Bernie has cleared some space for a viable candidate to run on a socialist platform next time around.

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Tue Mar-01-16 12:16 AM

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119. "What makes it relevant is she continued to defend Goldwater..."
In response to Reply # 118
Tue Mar-01-16 12:46 AM by Mansa Musa

          

...in the 1990s. She suggests in the NPR interview that Goldwater was a reasonable conservative, but that the GOP moved to the right later. But Goldwater was a racist, wanted to dismantle welfare, stoked racialized fears about crime, and was an adventurist military hawk. And, well, guess what? Although she has recently learned to say the right things on race, her record on welfare, criminal justice, and military intervention would have made Goldwater very happy. He could only have dreamed of playing a role in dismantling welfare, the 1990s prison explosion, or moving NATO to the east. Her aversion to tax increases on the upper middle class, and to New Deal banking regulations, also would have pleased the old conservative. In that sense, she has helped to complete certain key features of Goldwater's ideological project.

That's what the whole political spectrum moving to the right means: we're asked to choose between a Democrat Goldwater would love, and a demagogue reminiscent of the John Birch Society.

  

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Deacon Blues
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Tue Mar-01-16 03:09 AM

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120. "RE: What makes it relevant is she continued to defend Goldwater..."
In response to Reply # 119


  

          


So you see no difference between her and any potential republican nominee?

dude

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Tue Mar-01-16 06:27 AM

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121. "That's not what I said. Read the last sentence again."
In response to Reply # 120


          

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Tue Mar-01-16 07:33 AM

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122. "If you had to choose between Goldwater and Robert W. Welch..."
In response to Reply # 121
Tue Mar-01-16 08:02 AM by Mansa Musa

          

...in 1964, I could understand voting for Goldwater to keep Welch out. But I could also understand refusing to vote for Goldwater, on the grounds that his positions disgusted you on too many things you cared about.

That's where we are. If Goldwater was alive today, he'd be happy, because he'd realize that although the left won the culture wars, the right won on military intervention, taxes, welfare, unions, prisons, banking regulations, and campaign finance. The fact that Hillary can espouse (in essence, rhetoric aside) Goldwater's positions on many issues, while passing for a liberal, says a lot about how much the right has won.

I don't at all fault people for voting for Hillary. What I hate is the denial and rationalization of positions once associated with the Republican Party. I wonder whether there is a limit to this moving of the goalposts of lesser-evilism closer and closer to the old GOP.

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Tue Mar-01-16 08:20 AM

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123. "RE: If you had to choose between Goldwater and Robert W. Welch..."
In response to Reply # 122
Tue Mar-01-16 08:30 AM by murph71

          

Yeah....I get that...

But the '90s was a totally different world. This was a time where damn near all Democrats were struggling to get pass their loopy, bleeding heart, soft on crime Liberal tag that haunted them for much of the late '70s and '80s....We all know why the Dems (including Bill and Hillary) were doing that bullshit....

In other words, it was pure politics. The same way it was pure politics when u had members of the congressional black caucus vote for the the '94 crime bill (link: https://twitter.com/goldietaylor/status/703689626549153800)...The same way it was pure politics when Bernie was voting against the Brady gun Bill; or the same way he voted for in support of legislation, funding and re-auths that also contributed increasing mass incarceration...

In the '90s there were no clean hands....

And the reason why all this was happening? Because the Dems needed that white working class and suburban base. Decades later though, the Obama coalition has essentially wiped that all out. There is no longer a need to shout out Barry Goldwater to the cheap seats like Hilldawg or vote for a harmful bill because your people back in Vermont would have not re-elected u (Bernie) didn't....

So yeah...making Clinton out to be the ultimate lying ass, pandering politician is silly at this point in time...They were all playing that game in the early '90s....

Trump is leading the Republican party. I'm wide awake, homie....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Tue Mar-01-16 08:32 AM

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124. "It's a lot bigger than crime, though"
In response to Reply # 123
Tue Mar-01-16 08:35 AM by Mansa Musa

          

My point is that Democrats are where mainstream Republicans used to be on military intervention, taxes, welfare, unions, college tuition, banking regulations, and campaign finance. When someone points out that the Democrats have gotten worse on all those issues (even if they got better on a few issues, like gay marriage), they can always say, "but the Republicans have gotten worse faster." And they'll be right. But the problem is that we are locked into a very destructive dynamic, which is driven by the control of both parties by the 1%.

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Tue Mar-01-16 09:45 AM

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126. "RE: It's a lot bigger than crime, though"
In response to Reply # 124
Tue Mar-01-16 09:56 AM by murph71

          

>My point is that Democrats are where mainstream Republicans
>used to be on military intervention, taxes, welfare, unions,
>college tuition, banking regulations, and campaign finance.
>When someone points out that the Democrats have gotten worse
>on all those issues (even if they got better on a few issues,
>like gay marriage), they can always say, "but the Republicans
>have gotten worse faster." And they'll be right. But the
>problem is that we are locked into a very destructive dynamic,
>which is driven by the control of both parties by the 1%.


Yeah...But some of those issues that u point out are not as cut and dry....Unions? They are being destroyed LOCALLY mostly in states being ran by Republicans...And truth be told, union jobs are a dying breed because union fueled jobs are being broken up and sent overseas...As tech jobs continue to grow at a record rate and manufacturing and machine-based jobs slowing up, unions are basically on their death bed...

Military intervention? Obama pulled out...he's being called soft by Republicans. He's being blamed for the rise of Isis....There's a reason why the US hasn't put boots in the ground in Syria...U have Republican candidates talking about lighting the Middle East up....Hardcore anti-war Liberals can scream bloody murder about Drones all day. But most folks would rather have drones than boots on the ground...

Welfare reform? The Dems have been battling the Repugs over the last 8 years over cutting food stamps and squashing free lunch and daycare for kids. When you see a spending bill go through, both sides are taking a haircut...Dems believe in government. Repubs demonize government.

So really, on these three subjects, the Repubs and Dems are NOT the same...

I think where your argument has credence is on the banking side of things. I think there's too much money being spread around for politicians to REALLY go after the banks....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
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Tue Mar-01-16 10:20 AM

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128. "RE: It's a lot bigger than crime, though"
In response to Reply # 126
Tue Mar-01-16 10:25 AM by Mansa Musa

          

The Dems betrayed unions on labor law reform, and their support for charter schools is bad for teachers' unions. As for manufacturing, the debate on trade is distorted by the false framing of pro- vs. anti-globalization. The real issue is that NAFTA and TPP were largely written by corporate lawyers to enable the Monsantos, GMs, and Wal-Marts of the world to increase profits while undermining labor and environmental regulations. NAFTA allows corporations to sue governments that try to control prices, or ban toxic chemicals, or protect domestic producers (including clean energy companies). They are really investors' rights agreements, not "free trade" agreements. They have accelerated the death of the private sector labor unions. I live in Michigan, and NAFTA drove a stake through the heart of the UAW here. GM can now exploit teenage girls in maquiladoras outside Nuevo Laredo for peanuts, and freely dump toxic chemicals in the Rio Grande. NAFTA was crafted to make all that easier, and TPP gives corporations even more power.

As for foreign policy, the Dems have a sorry imperial record, but Hillary pushes the envelope. She is palling around with Kissinger, advocating confrontation with Russia, promoting pre-emptive wars left and right, and perfectly aligned with Netanyahu on what do about the Palestinians. LBJ was a hawk, and Goldwater was a super-hawk. Hillary is closer to Goldwater.

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
23113 posts
Tue Mar-01-16 10:41 AM

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133. "RE: It's a lot bigger than crime, though"
In response to Reply # 128
Tue Mar-01-16 10:42 AM by murph71

          

>The Dems betrayed unions on labor law reform, and their
>support for charter schools is bad for teachers' unions. As
>for manufacturing, the debate on trade is distorted by the
>false framing of pro- vs. anti-globalization. The real issue
>is that NAFTA and TPP were largely written by corporate
>lawyers to enable the Monsantos, GMs, and Wal-Marts of the
>world to increase profits while undermining labor and
>environmental regulations.

To me the issue is very complex...Sure, Dems didn't do all they should have done to support unions...But they saw the handwriting on the wall. Corporations were always going to push for paying lower taxes and lower wages...And no one, not the Dems or Repugs (who now find themselves in the same boat as the Dems having to deal with a voting block angered over jobs leaving this country) were going to stop them....Companies want to make money. Even during W's era when they significantly lowered tax rates for businesses they still shipped jobs overseas....


>As for foreign policy, the Dems have a sorry imperial record,
>but Hillary pushes the envelope. She is palling around with
>Kissinger, advocating confrontation with Russia, promoting
>pre-emptive wars left and right, and perfectly aligned with
>Netanyahu on what do about the Palestinians. LBJ was a hawk,
>and Goldwater was a super-hawk. Hillary is closer to
>Goldwater.

I'm going to use history as my guide....When a political party tips heavy left or right, the Presidential candidate follows that route.....Hillary is too much on that Obama train to channel that past Goldwater swag....

It's Trump vs. Clinton....U can vote for that green party candidate if u want to, dog....I'm voting for that vastly LESS reckless as fuck candidate who doesn't re-tweets White nationalists and calls out a judge for being an Hispanic....

Not the same, homie...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
16595 posts
Tue Mar-01-16 08:48 AM

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125. "RE: the same conservative economic policies of Obama"
In response to Reply # 118
Tue Mar-01-16 08:51 AM by bentagain

  

          

my thoughts on this

it was an interesting, and by the looks of the SC primary results, successful choice for HRC to bury herself so deeply in BHO's ass

I'm assuming that direct association was a conscious choice to gain the black vote

but IRT to a GE (assuming she wins the D nomination) I think it's a losing strategy for 2 reasons

domestically = the economy

as has been pointed out by Bern, income inequality is at an all time high

one meme that I always go back to for POTUS elections is, are you better off now than you were 8 years ago

I think most would say no

BHO did keep the economy from completely collapsing

which would be the best spin I can come up with for him, and after 8 years, I don't think you can still fall back on the W plea cop

most of the other metrics IRT the economy for citizens, I would think illustrate the continued inequality under BHO

the bank bailout made them bigger now
new income funnelled to top 1%, etc...

internationally = foreign policy

regime change

drones

rise of Isis

again, after 8 years, I don't think you can fall back on the W plea cop

sure, he got us into Iraq, but that shit show has continued for 8 years under BHO

Egypt, Libya, Syria = BHO's FaiLs

and that's w/o even talking about Yemen, and wherever else we're fucking shit up

BHO has successes to point to of course

but for most voters, I'm going to assume those are the 2 most important issues

the economy
endless war

and I don't think anybody would argue BHO gets gold stars in those areas

so if she continues to play that card in a GE, it's a Loser

if she flip flops, and tries to come up for air by removing her head from his ass, she'll end up looking like Romney 12'

$.02

if she's pitching herself as BHO 2.0, the R nominee can just look in the camera and ask 'murica

are you better off now than you were 8 years ago?

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Tue Mar-01-16 09:52 AM

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127. "RE: the same conservative economic policies of Obama"
In response to Reply # 125
Tue Mar-01-16 10:00 AM by murph71

          

>my thoughts on this
>
>it was an interesting, and by the looks of the SC primary
>results, successful choice for HRC to bury herself so deeply
>in BHO's ass
>
>I'm assuming that direct association was a conscious choice to
>gain the black vote


Or maybe to take advantage of the fact that Clinton was in Obama's cabinet...that she was in HIS administration....?

I got no beef with anyone who has issues with Clinton's various platforms or worldview.....But I think its a bit naive (no diss) to think that a candidate that served as Secretary of State in the administration of President who is still highly popular in the black community would not remind voters that she was on Obeezy's team and supported him...

That would be political malpractice to do so.....If y'all think H. Clinton is shady as fuck on the issues, it's all good...But come on....lol....Let's use common sense here...

(*BTW, those Obama L's? Some of them r L's in that Republican echo chamber...Hell, I'm willing to give u Syria...But when you don't see the steady stream of dead American bodies being flown back to the States and wounded soldiers struggling to have normal lives, that matters too....*)

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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Tue Mar-01-16 11:26 AM

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134. "Hey Hillary Haters, y'all going to be like this for the next 8 years?"
In response to Reply # 0
Tue Mar-01-16 11:27 AM by Buddy_Gilapagos

  

          

If she wins that is ( I am acutally thinking she may be a one termer. I can't see one party having the white house for 4 straight terms)

The constant unmitigated hate. Will she be on George Bush levels for y'all or somewhere a little lower?

The number one thing that I don't look forward to with Clinton winning (besides having two families run the country for 20+) is hearing the constant 1998-like Clinton Hate. Towards the end of Bill's second term I definitely suffered from Clinton Fatigue. Not because I was hating them but I just got tired of everyone else hating them. Poor Al bore the brunt of that.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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bentagain
Member since Mar 19th 2008
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Tue Mar-01-16 11:36 AM

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135. "LOL@unmitigated hate = her record, FOH"
In response to Reply # 134
Tue Mar-01-16 11:37 AM by bentagain

  

          

to answer your question, yes, we're going to keep talking about her record

in case you didn't know, she's running for POTUS and there is a better option IMO.

what will be the plea cop when she's actually being smeared/attacked/hated by the Repubs (assuming she wins the nomination)

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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Tue Mar-01-16 11:46 AM

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139. "There is talking about her record and dissecting her every utterance "
In response to Reply # 135


  

          

and also holding her to a standard that is different from everyone else.

Quick questions without researching: Do you know if the CBC supported the Clinton Crime Bill or Welfare Reform?


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
79594 posts
Tue Mar-01-16 11:53 AM

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142. "the hate is based on her record and her lies bruh"
In response to Reply # 139
Tue Mar-01-16 11:55 AM by legsdiamond

          

and without researching I would think the CBC supported the bill and fuck em if they did.

and why is it so bad to hold her feet to the fire for her record? All of them should be better to the fullest.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
382 posts
Tue Mar-01-16 12:43 PM

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146. "Look up how Malcolm X talked about JFK..."
In response to Reply # 139
Tue Mar-01-16 12:44 PM by Mansa Musa

          

...or how Frederick Douglass talked about Lincoln, or how Eugene Debs talked about Wilson, or how Angela Davis talked about Nixon.

People of conscience have been blasting the hypocrisy and mendacity of those in power THROUGHOUT the history of this country.

Hillary isn't being held to a higher standard at all. If you look at media coverage of her as a whole, she's gotten a free ride on a lot of wack shit she's done.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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Tue Mar-01-16 01:07 PM

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149. "I am all for being critical of candidate and keeping their feet to the f..."
In response to Reply # 146


  

          

But have never been a fan of Clinton Derangement Syndrome or Obama Derangement Syndrome.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Tue Mar-01-16 11:36 AM

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136. "why would a Hillary Hater stop hating? "
In response to Reply # 134


          



****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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Tue Mar-01-16 11:40 AM

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137. "They could just move on. It was annoying AF all the hillary fan girls "
In response to Reply # 136


  

          

who couldn't get over BHO beating her in the primaries and complained about it for years.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
79594 posts
Tue Mar-01-16 11:50 AM

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141. "oh, im talking about hate based on actual policies/lies"
In response to Reply # 137


          

not just because she won.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Tue Mar-01-16 12:01 PM

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143. "RE: oh, im talking about hate based on actual policies/lies"
In response to Reply # 141


          



Yeah...but a lot of those same policies that people bring up happened WHEN HER HUSBAND WAS PRESIDENT....lol

For every real legit reason to get at Clinton (her Super Predator comment was FUCKED UP....) there are many that's just bullshit (White Water, Benghazi)....Even something as legit like that bullshit crime bill her husband signed and she supported gets murky as fuck when u realize who else voted for that same bill....

Nah dog...Part of the criticism Clinton gets is real...She has been a political opportunist at times during her run....And she should be called out for it...

But so should everybody else....

It just seems like at times people act like Clinton created politicking and flip flopping....lol

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
79594 posts
Tue Mar-01-16 12:59 PM

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147. "cmon bruh.. she is the front runner"
In response to Reply # 143


          

this is how it works.

and yes, if at any other time a spouse tries to run for Pres after their SO was President that record is fair game, ESPECIALLY if she was out on the trail pushing the agenda with speeches.

You can't expect or even ask people to ignore Bill's 2 terms because Hillary has no problem taking credit for shit done during his presidency.

we are in uncharted territory in regarding Hillary. Stop acting like she shouldn't be put through the ringer just like the rest of the front runners in the past.

Obama had to talk about Rev. Wright, being a muslim, Bill Ayers...

come the fuck on Murph, stop treating Hillary like she can't get that work other politicians got when they were favored to win.



****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
23113 posts
Tue Mar-01-16 01:24 PM

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152. "RE: cmon bruh.. she is the front runner"
In response to Reply # 147


          




There was a time when Bernie was the frontrunner, dog...And u didn't hear a peep about how he played the political game until people started painting Clinton out to be a political plague by some folks (on the hardcore left)...No talk about his Brady Bill vote or his Crime bill votes (plural)...It was Saint Bernie...lol

All I'm saying is this: These folks are ALL politicians....

I get it..After decades of the Hilldawg getting beat up by that Right Wing some of those critiques and hammering seeps over to the mainstream and paints her a certain way...I've been on record of being shook that this email shit will blow up in Clinton's face....I get it...

That broad ain't no saint...But she ain't the political devil like some folk are making her out to be...lol...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Tue Mar-01-16 04:28 PM

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157. "but the real race didn't start until SC remember?"
In response to Reply # 152


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Mansa Musa
Member since Feb 16th 2009
382 posts
Tue Mar-01-16 11:46 AM

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140. "She doesn't need an uncritical fanbase"
In response to Reply # 134
Tue Mar-01-16 11:52 AM by Mansa Musa

          

If she hadn't been challenged by Sanders, her whole platform would be further to the right in this campaign.

When she gets the nomination, if she thinks she can take the left for granted in November, she'll swiftly move back to the right, while her supporters wave the Trump Card ("If you criticize her, you're helping him win"). And if she gets into the White House, she won't do anything more progressive than she is forced to by organized social movements.

The biggest problem with the Obama years was that the left didn't pressure the Democrats effectively. The anti-war movement largely disappeared, and Occupy failed to formulate concrete demands or actually put pressure on politicians. BLM has been a lot more strategic, and they've pushed both Sanders and Hillary in constructive ways.

We can't buy in to the idea that Democrats are above criticism, for fear of helping Republicans, because that just allows the Democrats to behave more like Republicans. The problem is when the criticism becomes disconnected from political activity that forces politicians to respond.

  

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DeepAztheRoot
Member since Dec 19th 2003
13992 posts
Wed Mar-02-16 04:04 AM

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159. "lol"
In response to Reply # 134


  

          

and you get to pretend she is different from the lying crony corporate cum guzzlers on the Republican side you are supposed to loathe

the only reason people vote for Hillary is because they are afraid Bernie won't beat the (R) opponent, have a fondness for Bill (see the Black vote) because she sure the hell isn't progressive or a liberal

DNC knows it with all the bullshit stunts with super delegates, the debates, media coverage

RNC did the same to Ron Paul in 2012 with their "weather problems" in Maine, delegate intimidation, media blackouts, and changing the rules as they go crap because Romney was a stinking turd as well and needed propped up


"He (Bernie) is in a party that has a track record for basically sabotaging its rebels. It has done a good job of doing that in the past from Dennis Kucinich to Jesse Jackson to Howard Dean, whether they use a PR campaign like the ‘Dean’s scream’ to bring down the Dean candidacy. Also Jesse Jackson was sabotaged by a PR by the DNC. The Democratic Party has its ways of reigning people in if they try to rebel. The bottom line is that we are in political system in the U.S., which is funded by predatory banks and fossil fueled giants and war profiteers. So, we really need to reject that system, we say to reject the lesser evil so we can stand up and really fight for the greater good.”...“What’s been happening in the Democratic Party is you’ll have a good candidate who will run, but then the candidate gets reabsorbed and the campaign becomes reabsorbed back into the Democratic Party. So it’s kind of a fake left while the party becomes more corporatist, more militarist, and continues to march to the right.” -Jill Stein-





<-Fear Ameer

  

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MiracleRic
Member since Oct 21st 2002
45200 posts
Tue Mar-01-16 12:13 PM

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144. "i'm starting to think neither of the Dems can beat Trump"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

i'm also starting to think that Trump is trolling us all

not sure why polls are saying Bernie has a better chance that Hilldog but yea...doesn't seem like that's going to come to fruition

the last time we've had more than 2 democrat term was FDR and Truman and shit

it's Trump's to lose at this point...Middle 'Murrica FTW

Let me sport my Air Hyperbole 2010s in peace. (c) ansomble

Building repetoires (c) spm since 1983

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
23113 posts
Tue Mar-01-16 12:20 PM

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145. "RE: i'm starting to think neither of the Dems can beat Trump"
In response to Reply # 144


          




CNN
National poll: Clinton, Sanders both top Trump

By Jennifer Agiesta, CNN Polling Director

Washington (CNN)Both of the remaining Democratic candidates for president easily top Republican front-runner Donald Trump in hypothetical general election match-ups, according to a new CNN/ORC Poll.

But Hillary Clinton, who is well ahead in the Democratic race for the presidency, would likely face a stronger challenge should Florida Sen. Marco Rubio or Texas Sen. Ted Cruz capture the Republican nomination for president.

In the scenario that appears most likely to emerge from the primary contests, Clinton tops Trump 52% to 44% among registered voters. That result has tilted in Clinton's favor since the last CNN/ORC Poll on the match-up in January.

But when the former secretary of state faces off with either of the other two top Republicans, things are much tighter and roughly the same as they were in January. Clinton trails against Rubio, with 50% choosing the Florida senator compared to 47% for Clinton, identical to the results in January. Against Cruz, Clinton holds 48% to his 49%, a slight tightening from a 3-point race in January to a 1-point match-up now.

Sanders -- who enjoys the most positive favorable rating of any presidential candidate in the field, according to the poll -- tops all three Republicans by wide margins: 57% to 40% against Cruz, 55% to 43% against Trump, and 53% to 45% against Rubio. Sanders fares better than Clinton in each match-up among men, younger voters and independents.

The race for the presidency hits its primary season peak as 78% of voters, including almost the same share among Democrats, Republicans and independents, who say that the nation is more deeply divided on major issues facing the country than it has been in the past.

The survey asked voters to choose which of all the remaining top candidates, regardless of party, they trust most to handle seven top issues. Trump tops the list on the economy, terrorism and immigration, while Clinton is the top choice when it comes to health care, race relations and foreign policy. Voters are about evenly split between Trump and Clinton on gun policy.

Adding up all the candidates from each party, Republicans have the edge on the economy, terrorism, immigration and gun policy, while more voters choose one of the Democrats' candidates on race relations and health care, with about an even split between the two parties on foreign policy.

Voters' choices broken out by party provide an interesting window into areas where Trump might hold cross-party appeal. Though the share of leaned Republicans choosing Clinton on any of the tested issues tops out at 8% on health care, Trump is the most trusted for 15% of leaned Democrats on terrorism, 14% on the economy and 13% on immigration.

As noted above, Sanders holds the most positive favorability rating of any of the top candidates for president: 60% of registered voters view him positively, 33% negatively. He is the only candidate seen favorably by a majority of voters, and one of four who are seen more positively than negatively.

The two front-runners, Clinton and Trump, are seen unfavorably by majorities of voters. Almost 6-in-10 have a negative view of Trump, 59% with 38% favorable, and 53% have a negative view of Clinton, 44% see her positively.

Cruz also has a net negative rating, while impressions of Carson, Rubio and Kasich tilt positive.

Clinton's husband, former president Bill Clinton, has a broadly positive favorability rating. Melania Trump, wife of the billionaire GOP front-runner, is broadly unknown, but among those who do express an opinion, more have a negative one than a positive one.

The economy remains far and away the country's top concern as the election campaign rolls on, with 47% calling it most important as they decide how to vote for president, followed by 19% citing health care, 14% terrorism, 10% foreign policy and 8% illegal immigration.

Should Michael Bloomberg, the independent former mayor of New York City, throw his hat into the ring as an independent candidate, his candidacy would do more harm to Clinton's bid to beat Trump than it would to Sanders' effort.

All told though, few say they would consider backing Bloomberg if he did run. Interest is strongest among political independents, and just 49% of them say they would definitely or probably consider voting Bloomberg for president.

The CNN/ORC Poll was conducted by telephone February 24-27 among a random national sample of 1,001 adults. Results among the sample of 920 registered voters have a margin of sampling error of plus or minus 3 percentage points.

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
79594 posts
Tue Mar-01-16 01:01 PM

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148. "that dude sounds like he doesn't want to win though"
In response to Reply # 144


          

shit still feels like he is going to make every wrong move to lose voters AND STILL gain them.

It's some Brewsters Millions shit for real. He wouldn't shit on David Duke... I swear he is trying to throw this thing and every move brings him more voters.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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MiracleRic
Member since Oct 21st 2002
45200 posts
Tue Mar-01-16 01:12 PM

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150. "nah, he's smart as shit with this shit"
In response to Reply # 148
Tue Mar-01-16 01:13 PM by MiracleRic

  

          

he's just appealing to the rabid anti-PC/anti-intellectual folks

he's basically being a sane and calculated white Kanye (which Ye may be doing as well, too)

but yea, he's saying what seems like all the wrong things to reasonable people bc he realizes that unreasonable people are very passionate about their social retardation

u like ye bc he makes yt mad

yt like trump cause he makes niggers, spics, and EVERYONE mad

same principle but premeditated

Let me sport my Air Hyperbole 2010s in peace. (c) ansomble

Building repetoires (c) spm since 1983

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
79594 posts
Tue Mar-01-16 01:14 PM

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151. "this could be true..."
In response to Reply # 150


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
11281 posts
Tue Mar-01-16 02:45 PM

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154. "That's a good comparison."
In response to Reply # 150


          

Even beyond the racial context. Kanye's whole persona and image is based on anti-intellectualism.

  

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ndibs
Member since Aug 06th 2012
12715 posts
Tue Mar-01-16 02:38 PM

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153. "tape of her calling young blacks super predators?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

she might have called criminals super predators. I doubt she used the word black, african american, inner city or any other code word in that statement.

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
79594 posts
Tue Mar-01-16 04:28 PM

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158. "smh"
In response to Reply # 153


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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