what do you think caused the roots and tribe to
change their tones of their music with these albums?
Illadelph was definitely a departure from the playful vibe of dywm
as was Br&l in comparison to the 3 previous albums
You guys are a little older than me so i think you
guys can give a little more perspective on it

at the moment "BR&L it my fav tribe album
"Get a Hold" "The Hop" and esp "Wordplay"...
wordplay has always been a top 5 tribe song for me

it always bounces from that and "Midnight Marauders"
i like the vibe of it, its a little darker than the first 3
but soundwise its a little cleaner, though i like
the sound of low end theory ALOT...

But frm what i see ppl really weren't feeling BR&L
like that? Explain

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I think all those later albums showed the artist become a little more mature, cynical, no longer just happy to be here and kind of eager to shed their playful image.

I think it's a natural maturation (though I think De La treaded on the edge of being too bitter by Bullon Mind State).

I think even Kanye experienced the same thing by Late Registration.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

i felt like the first three ye albums
were on the lighter side soundwise
in my opinion 808's was the start of dark ye
then on mdtbf he waswhere i first heard traces of
that cathedral sound that good music has at times

but i agree with you with de la

i always thought the east v west shit made alot
of these light hearted guys "toughen up a bit
because tip even mentions "beef" with westside connection
on BR@L...

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had somewhat of a strange dark tone to it. "Drive slow" did a bit too.

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>had somewhat of a strange dark tone to it. "Drive slow" did a
>bit too.
We even seen more of kanye's humor on LR

even though Gold digger was about what it was Kanye
made it a kinda humorous song

i felt that the dark songs were just part of the journey
but they didn't set the tone for album

"Drive Slow" felt like driving a dusk...introspective vibe

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Drive slow really does feel like some reflective type shit

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**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

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of Rap and even R&B seemed to go through some huge changes.

For Tribe, the sound they helped to usher in, which was more Jazzy, melodic, and "happy" was basically dead by 95-96. All of the East Coast Boom Bap was much darker, which could be traced back to Wu-Tang's dominance, but someone else who was there may know better than I would. 95-96 had the Mobb Deep types making that darker sound that was a whole lot different from what Tribe made, so they had to adjust.

When I heard BR&L, it just felt more like "New York Undercover" to me than their previous work, and the lack of chemistry was almost blatant. It's where the first three albums, you could just feel the energy of them being happy in the studio, joking and clowning around. On this one, it just felt like the verses could have damn near been mailed in on a few songs. Also, the song topics were much darker....I mean, "Stressed out" as a song title alone is dark LOL.

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"Phony Rappers" "The Pressure" felt like typical tribe
"!nce again" had that typical Tip and phife flow
i mean Tip's presence was more visible on there
but otherwise i think the events of the era kinda shaped their
thoughts on this album...the east coast west shit had everyone
"justifying their thug" a little

and "Wordplay" is dope as hell
tip was laughin at the end it sounded like a dope organic cypher session a little

overall it feels like an autumn album to me

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cause they definitely mailed it in

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

now The Love Movement...yeah.

Beats,Rhymes, & Life, while not my fav, is still a solid album and probably my 3rd or 4th fav rap album from 1996.

You could tell they weren't getting along. Same with Pharcyde's Labcabin. It comes across that dudes weren't really friends with each other anymore.

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

he was on that shit.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

But the songs were just alot less fun. 'Everytime I step to the microphone I put my soul on two-inch reels that I don't even own'. Y'know....that Madden skit was really telling about the whole vibe of that album. Instead of a collection of different styles coming together they sounded like a bunch of fragments going in different directions.

And BRL.....phony rappers is probably the most negative and resentful Tip had ever sounded. They just generally sounded bored and not unified and not having fun. I can't even listen to 1nce again...it sounds like they're trying to hard to create that old magic and just can't pull it off.

I agree, but I also think a lot of follow up albums in hip hop had a darker tone because they got a taste of the other side of the biz.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

yes, the friction was real on Labincab, but they were also PURPOSEFULLY going in a different direction with their sound. Fatlip wanted to go Wu Tang-y with the beats, but the others wanted to follow the Dilla lead. All member have spoken that even if they stayed cool during Labincab, it wasn't gunna be BR2P. They were 3 years older and focused on different life experiences

the Tribe shit is all your own feelings. The album is just darker, alongside less Phife and Consequences' appearance.

Phony Rappers just felt like an extension of the sentiment that was running through so much of rap as Puff's Shiny Suite was about to take off, and Death Row had made rap the landscape of psychotic mashismo it was at the time.

95-96 were prolly frustrating times to live in if you were from that early 90's happy-go-lucky hip hop wave. Pharcyde still harmonized their asses off and had fun (The end of "She Said" for example) in their songs.

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

Blazing blunts to city lights on sunset and crescent heights

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

it was obvious something changed...

thus, the sound was off and it sounds mailed in to anyone who grew up in Tribe and heard the first 3 albums.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

>it was obvious something changed...
>
>thus, the sound was off and it sounds mailed in to anyone who
>grew up in Tribe and heard the first 3 albums.

just felt like they weren't in sync on that album

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

They sounded so basic compared to their previous work. Like skeletons or demoes rather than the fully fleshed out, lush sound of MM and LET. They sound like songs that were made in a couple hours rather than songs that were worked on tirelessly. Plus the drum sounds are really different. There was so much more frequency disparity between instruments. So many high pass/low pass eq'ing. The snares have no body. Alot of the samples are hi-pass filtered to hell.

I like some of the songs. The Hop. Get a Hold. The Jam. But even those songs just don't sound finished or something.

time or some shit. They weren't vibin (no pun) during that album.

...I'm from the era when A.I. was the answer, now they think ai is the answer - Marlon Craft

Tribe left gems off that album. Practice Sessions, Weekenz, Girl, wanting you... The final cut they put out was decent but what the left off sounded better to me.

crazy thing i actually bought
the first 3 tribe albums and the
college dropout at the same time

i played them all in the the order the dropped
Midnight Marauders grabbed me alot at first
because when it dropped i was in maybe 3rd grade
and id seen and heard ward tour on "the box"
and not to mention "electric relaxation"

but i dont know with me alot songs i like arent dope lyrically
but if i like the beat im in. I really liked the sound of BR&L

and also when their debut came out i was 4 maybe
i think that like you said growing up on tribe and seeing their
impact on the game in real time makes the difference
i can respect that

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they were always ahead of the game with their sound so I can see how BR&L would be the one you gravitate to because it had a polished sound that was created for 96. But back in 89 when Peoples dropped. BLOWN AWAY!!!

Those first 3 albums.. MAN LISTEN!!!

It's like people who grew up with Stillmatic being their introduction to Nas. They go back and hear Illmatic and think the sound is dated or say it doesn't connect because they have mature ears that are used to a more polished sound.

All the ol heads are like NAHHHH.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

see like 95-96 was when i was REALLY starting
like have favorite rappers and stuff like around 4th grade
so yeah i get it

like for tribe to still garner interest from young kids
at this point is amazing so i can imagine what it was like when they dropped

Beats Rhymes and Life will be 20 this year and we are still talking
about it...how crazy is that

_____________________________

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He def didn't mail it in. Phife, on the other hand...

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>All of the East Coast Boom Bap was much darker, which could be
>traced back to Wu-Tang's dominance, but someone else who was
>there may know better than I would. 95-96 had the Mobb Deep
>types making that darker sound that was a whole lot different
>from what Tribe made, so they had to adjust.

This was my first thought as well. Mobb Deep was cold and clinical sounding...and I think it influenced both Q-Tip and ?uestlove (he can correct me if I'm wrong). His drumming on Illadelph sounded like a metronome, some of least 'live' sounding drumming he's done. And the drums sound a lot like The Infamous- crisp rim shots and pretty straightforward drum patterns. It's also an album that Q-Tip worked on, BTW. So the influence on BR&L makes sense.

I just think the pendulum swings- as someone said elsewhere. A lot of groups went from the jazzy, warm, and organic aesthetic to something a lot colder and more sterile. At least temporarily.

_______________________________________________________________________________________

. . .that he was TRYING to sound like a drum machine during the illadelph halflife sessions. He said he wanted people to argue over whether or not it was a live drummer.



"You have to laugh at the things that hurt you just to keep yourself in balance."
—Ken Kesey

http://austinato.bandcamp.com

http://www.discogs.com/lists/Favorites-of-2016/269401

that's what i always thought

like they had developed this highly specialized, niche thing with the first 2 albums

something celebrated, but othered also

with illadelph they were looking to share the same stage, get mentioned in the same breath as their more 'serious' or straightforward rap contemporaries and icons

__

fairweather

i'm sure you could dig up his response somewhere

my memory is something along the lines of thats the art they were making at that time, nothing really more to it. thats just how things felt, and also access to more "production"

__

fairweather

Illadelph was ?uest's attempt at being extra aggressive

that the songs on the pre-IH albums were nearly impossible for hip hop DJs to blend into their mixes due to the live, un-quantized drum sounds/programming.

This was a specific motivator for the more "on the grid" sounding drums on IH (not that they were getting played in the Tunnel after that as a result, but still).

www.twitter.com/seandammit

Only problem was how wack Phife had gotten and the addition of Consequence. Other than that, shit was on point. Tip, Dilla and Ali did their thang. Not as good as the first three LPs of course.

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To me, it's hard comparing Instinctive Travels to BR&L or even Love Movement.

I feel like the Inst. Travels was the most groundbreaking, and compared to most 1990 albums, it sounds pretty damm good from start to finish. With BR&L, it's more polished, but just lacks the same energy and charisma to me. With The Love Movement, I actually enjoy listening to this more than the other two, mainly because that production was just amazing to me on "Find a way" and "Like it like that," along with some other great productions.

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i mean their verses were cool but it made
it feel like compilation album to me


but i definitely agree on the polished sound of
BR&L...i liked the clarity

but then i feel like the first 3 texture wise had a different
as more bassy heavier feel which i really dug
feel i know that Bob Power engineered those i dont know if he was on the personnel of BR&L

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than Phife. If tribe was tip, Ali and consequence from day 1 themail group wouldn't have missed a step.

Dude was just hated for being an unasked for addition.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

now lemme be honest. BR&L is hot garbage juice compared to their first 3 albums. I was real disappointed with that album.

Illadelph on the other hand was amazing. I loved that album and I don't think there is anyone who was a Roots fan who didn't love that album. Malik B was in a zone on that album.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

Cons then is not the Cons I dug during the aughts. Dude worked on his craft and got much better. On BR&L, nah fam.

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of course phife is can be an aggressive rhymer
but consequence flow was a little more edgy
i liked the contrast of him rhymes on those smooth ass beats

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in terms of tone and tempo, whereas Phife provided a nice contrast in both.

No dis to Cons but I can't recall anything from him on BR&L that's classic the way some Phife lines or verses are classic.

"Went to Carvel to get a milkshake..."

peace

J305
___________________

People of color are NOT a minority. Think Global.

Don't Let Hollywood fool you.

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I recall Quest saying IH was meant to be an answer to NY boom bap or something along those lines. I’m very much paraphrasing here but the jist of what I remember was there was some label pressure to match the tone some of the harder edged albums at the time.

Aside from that I think it’s right in line with the overall pattern of The Roots, with each album treated as a n entirely new animal from top to bottom.

I think there are certain tracks over the years that revisit the soul of the DYWM sound, like Rising Up, How I Got Over, etc. There are points where some albums were essentially production porn (in a good way, lol) with TFA being the best example alongside GT and RD, with other albums that are a response to current trends and I think IH and TTP are the two albums in this mold.

wanting to sound like a hip hop band instead of a live band that played hip hop. They wanted to sound like they were sampling instead of playing instruments. Less jammy, more focused. I thought it was a great move.

How many artist have you heard claiming that they don't want to be pigeon holed into a specific type of artist. They want to "develop & grow as an artist".....

**Kanye is a modern day example**

WHAT'S GOOD *****? What's REALLY good?!?!????!!! Ha HA!
http://40.media.tumblr.com/d8e2daf9f3f37244cd05436bcdf05973/tumblr_mt4qibKq4c1rgam01o1_1280.png

people went from their peers being X-Clan and Public Enemy to Digable Planets and the BoogieMonsters to Nas, Biggie, Raekwon and Mobb Deep

Tribe had to change their sound for the sake of innovation, The Roots had to get away from jazz rap altogether

and tried to make a few radio cuts.

I wish they never made those last 2 albums.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

YOU hate BRL and Love Movement

I don't think I hear your position clearly yet

LOFL

both of those albums are the goodness.

Tribe does not have a wack album.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

you still seem upset tho

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

Listened to it a lot. It's disjointed and not as strong as any of their earlier albums.

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

but to each his own

.

...I'm from the era when A.I. was the answer, now they think ai is the answer - Marlon Craft

Or at least my perception. People were REALLY excited about BRL cause there was a timelag after MM....but it was generally a bit of a let-down. By the time TLM came out....expectations had dropped.

There's not a doubt in my mind that for listeners from the era....the group is defined by the first 3 albums.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

Jam had that funky bossa nova thing going. A whole album of that what was we were hoping for. But the other songs were just not as musical as their previous output. Maybe they wanted to save on sampling? I don't know.

More synths. Less organic. Bitter lyrics. Sparse sound rather than the lush one that MM was characterized as. Less fun. You could sense that it wasn't a few guys hanging out and having fun. Sounded like punch-clock work to me. I always got the feeling Consequence needed to be there so that Fife wouldn't strangle Tip or something like that. The beatles did that with billy Preston.

love them the most for.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

but yes, even on the critical side Source, Rap Pages, etc. they were not loved like the other two/three (depending on who you talking to)

i mean but if they listen to them now and still don't like it, whatevs

this shit better than 90% of Tribe's songs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMzCafMm4ws

and this shit, is vintage tribe on some next level future shit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSR1R_HuMTc

LET and MM shit all over that cut...

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

That beat is friggin horrible. Shit's not even on time....the bass drum is rushing. This song in particular stood out. The whole thing is a mess. The mix...the drum sounds....the faulty loop point. I remember momentarily wondering if it was a joke cause the Jungle brothers were rumored to have done that too.

the flow is wack, the lyrics are snooze fest and thr snare is loud as fuck on most of that album.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

There's less artifacts from layering samples over top each other which I guess sounds cleaner. That probably IS it. Fact is...the sample based music that we loved from that time probly sounds muddy to people from outside that paradigm.

And yah...the snare drums on that whole album. A friend of mine dubbed it the cringe snare. Everytime that shit hits you have to raise your shoulders to cover your ears. It's not just too loud....the high frequencies have been boosted unnecessarily. Each individual drum set piece sounds like it's in it's own box. I don't know.....not for me.

and yes, we were used to the sample based production where they threw a thick bass line and a kick drum and called it a day.

Not sure if dusty is the right word, muddy is probably a better description.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

about Dilla the gawd's production

how bout you go read Quest piece in the Source, from their Tribe break up issue, on exatly why THAT song, is the bizness

you and legscubiczirconia tryin way to hard up in here

also check the post, two other posters talked about how much they love that song

FACE

but keep posting washed yall

im sure if they put out another
album like a yr or so after MM
BR&L album wouldnt be looked at so crazy

it was like there was a step missing in the evolution
if that makes sense

_____________________________

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it does a great job showing their need and how it effected the music

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

and they kinda glossed over BR&L
they were like phife in atlanta
and then they added cons...

and also what rle did Ali really play in the group?
apparently Tip was really the producer pre the ummah

but the documentary was dope
i really wanted an in depth discussion about eah album
hell they could make 5 documenataries of that alone lol

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****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

>and also what rle did Ali really play in the group?

I spent the whole 90's thinking Ali was the mastermind behind the Tribe beats. He obviously had his role for the live shows. But I wonder what exactly he did in the studio. I've read that Jarobi contributed by digging for records. Maybe Ali did that too? Obviously he did the cuts. But beyond that....I STILL don't know what his role was. Some of the drum programming perhaps?

The only member who makes clear statements about it is Tip. He claims to have produced all the albums. Fife has contested this...but I've never been able to find him saying something concrete to that effect. Something like 'Ali made the beat for 'Oh my God' and 'Bonita Applebaum'. The fact that they don't seem to contradict Tip with any actual claims makes me assume that Tip is telling the truth and basically did everything. Or maybe they just have more class? Can't call it. But I'm dying to know more about it. The documentary was disappointing for me cause I wanted more nuts and bolts talk. MM needs an episode on that 'classic albums' show.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hE9NqfIc50o


Dude showed the fuck out on Mos Def's debut and Brown Sugar. Regardless of what he did (or didnt do) on Tribe's albums, he's legit.

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

Multiple sources on the net saying so at least.

I liked the Lucy Pearl stuff too. But Ali Shaheed man....He's got to be the only artist that I LOVE whilst not really knowing what he actually does. lol I'm a music nerd with this shit....when I like something I seek out a lot of the information and details about my favorite artists. I don't know ANYTHING about him or what he does. It's just weird to me.

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

I think with BR&L we all knew it was the beginning of the end. It was just a different vibe on that album.

"We don't make mistakes, we just have happy little accidents" - Bob Ross

"I'm wearing a MSU Tshirt because I went to MSU, you are wearing a UM Tshirt because you went to Walmart!" -unknown.

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Not so much for the more mediocre boring and uninspired songs on most of the album, but more the fact that introduced that bland sound that would haunt them until they disbanded. Phife was wack as shit on that record, too.

Kev

Marauders is god level to me, my favorite piece of art ever. but Beats Rhymes & Life was the first CD I owned (along with All Eyez On Me and One Day It'll All Make Sense) so maybe I hold it in extra high regard

it was a very different album. Sung hooks, Consequence rapped like a kid, they added Jay Dee and all of a sudden didnt sound “old school” anymore, hood chicks were at the beginning of "The Jam" talking about getting fly, there were drunken interludes, Q-Tip confronted the east coast/west coast beef, became Muslim and shot his friend over a girl. but it was still Tribe, just dealing with being grown up and how much Hip Hop had changed since 1993

I just played the album and rated each song

Phony Rappers - 8/10
Get A Hold 10/10
Motivators 8/10
The Jam - 11/10
Crew - 10/10
The Pressure* - 10/10 *maybe Im biased but this is the most "Tribe" sounding song on there
1nce Again - 9/10
Mind Power - 10/10
The Hop - 10/10
Keep It Moving - 11/10
Baby Phife’s Return - 9/10
Separate/Together - 7/10
What Really Goes On - I hate this song
Wordplay - 15/10
Stressed Out - 10/10

....I've always felt "1nce Again" sounded the closest to vintage Tribe sans hook.



Since 1976

Those look like Midnight Marauder ratings to me. I know you'd probably say that MM would rate all songs at 20/10 but that doesn't make sense. 10/10 should be the highest for actual logic and honesty.

With that said, BR&L was my second Tribe album and I enjoyed it a lot when it dropped. Not as much as MM but perhaps since MM was my first album and I didn't have 3 albums of being a fan to work off of, I wasn't as let down because Tribe was just another dope group to me and not the bulletproof 3 classic album group to others.

I can definitely see where and why people were let down but I think taking the album for what it is, it's still a quality 3.75-4 mic album.

Problem is, when people compare that to, in some minds, 3 5 mic albums, they look at a 3.75-4 mic album as a let down and in turn rate it more like a 2.75-3 mic album.

I loved 1nce Again when it came out. I thought it was a well done single.

Q-Tip was also killing shit lyrically even if Phife and Cons were average at best.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

Phife was extra wack on that album. The last thing I wanna hear is a Phife solo.

******************************************
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I don't care how dope that beat is, the horrible verses ruin any listening pleasure.

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