5. "Basically that there's more nuance than just racism to the result" In response to Reply # 1
Of the PP shooter not being shot by police and that police acting heroically isn't evidence of racism just because a) the suspect is white and b) other police regularly are racist and don't do their jobs well.
Basically it was a plea to view the incident with a little nuance and not just strictly on race lines, but I used a little bit of invective (I'd been drinking and there was a serious shooting in my city, cut me some slack) so now I'm a dirty racist.
6. "The DC Sniper and OJ survived." In response to Reply # 5
That right there is proof that not ALL Black violent suspects die at the hands of police.
Anyway, the 'if he was Black' meme being thrown around in response to cases like this is tired and insensitive. We don't have to beat that drum in response to every fucking thing.
7. "that's pretty much all i've been trying to say" In response to Reply # 6
and i think it's a pretty low way to make your point, especially given what seems like pretty obvious heroism in the case of the officers yesterday.
i'm 100% all for accountability when police fuck up, but using their lack of fuck ups as further evidence of racism is more divisive than helpful as far as i can tell.
a lot of people in that Tim Wise post actually took that point and either agreed or disagreed in a way that could be positive though, so overall it was more positive than i really expected.
legsdiamond Member since May 05th 2011 79594 posts
Sat Nov-28-15 10:34 AM
13. "DC snipers were asleep when they were caught" In response to Reply # 6 Sat Nov-28-15 10:52 AM by legsdiamond
If they popped 5 cops in a shootout those men would have been shreaded by bullets..
No need to address OJ...
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
legsdiamond Member since May 05th 2011 79594 posts
Sat Nov-28-15 11:40 AM
23. "Yup... horrible examples" In response to Reply # 20
and this PP shooting is another poor example
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
legsdiamond Member since May 05th 2011 79594 posts
Sat Nov-28-15 01:29 PM
60. "RE: Laquan was shot 14x while on the ground bleeding out." In response to Reply # 26
and too caught up in contradicting >me to see the point.
Lmao.. oh the irony
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
29. "Lol" In response to Reply # 25 Sat Nov-28-15 12:07 PM by SoWhat
I'm not at all interested in this tasteless, vapid conversation. I was being dismissive on purpose. I only wanted to point out that bringing up the 'If he was Black' bullshit is unnecessary and insensitive and poorly-thought and offbase in the context of the Springs/PP case. So use whichever surviving Black violent suspect you want - the point stands.
>I'm not at all interested in this tasteless conversation. I >was being dismissive on purpose. I only wanted to point out >that bringing up the 'If he was Black' bullshit is unnecessary >and insensitive and poorly-thought and offbase in the context >of the Springs/PP case. So use whichever surviving Black >violent suspect you want - the point stands.
Nah dog...I'm not about that one size fits all shit in this case....U know me better than that....
Yeah...it's racial.....But after that it gets a bit muddled....Economics come into play....
The shooting of unarmed black people usually happens in economically deprived 'hoods...It usually happens in black communities.......Environment plays just as much as an important role as race....
Basically, using OJ Simpson would be the same thing as using the Juice as an example that the judicial system is NOT systematically racist in its sentencing of black people compared to whites because he won his case....
OJ got off because he was rich.....U better believe that the PP shooter was able to survive not only because of his race, BUT because of the economics of where the said shooting took place.....I'm sure if that Planned Parenthood fire fight would have taken place in say Compton, the outcome would have been much different...
GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....
82. "Who was going to kill OJ? The folks he was selling dope to?" In response to Reply # 6
And the DC Sniper had to be caught alive so they could parade him through the media as if to say, "WE AIN'T THE ONLY ONES WITH THREE NAME HAVING SERIAL KILLAS"
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
11. "hahaha aight, you can call me a dirty racist too:" In response to Reply # 9
Tim Wise's post:
Ask yourself why Laquan McDonald was shot 16 times for holding a knife, having attacked no one, but the white guy at the Planned Parenthood with the gun who had shot multiple COPS was taken alive... Then note, if your answer is anything other than racism/white privilege you are not paying attention. Feel free to start over...
My reply:
This is just cheap political rhetoric. He was armed with an AK-47 and the officers exchanged fire with him. Had there been the right opportunity they would have shot him, which was clear if you were listening to the police scanner. The reason the shooter today wasn't killed was because skilled professionals did their jobs. Other police failing to do their jobs had no bearing on what happened today.
The guy shot five police and killed one. If you think any part of the equation was "oh he's white, let's take him alive" you're just being reactionary.
I'm all for preventing violence by police and the horrid sorts of murders we've seen in the case of Laquan McDonald, Jeremy Mardis and countless others, but to pretend all police are monolithic and all end results of violent police interactions can be reduced to nothing but race is disingenuous bullshit not meant to help the problem of police violence in this country (which is absolutely disproportionately directed at racial minorities and thats a serious problem worth serious dialogue not this bullshit) but meant to aggrandize yourself as a warrior in some perceived race war.
Get your head of your ass. A police and at least two other innocent people were murdered today apparent for nothing other than being at the wrong doctor's office. Nobody wanted to not kill that piece of shit because he's white.
(like i said, i'd been drinking so there was a little invective...)
legsdiamond Member since May 05th 2011 79594 posts
Sat Nov-28-15 10:31 AM
12. "This is bullshit IMO... dude shot 5 cops" In response to Reply # 11
killed 3 people and police acted peofessionally and captured him alive and race had nothing to do with it?
LMAO... ok.
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
14. "not even white people agree with him..." In response to Reply # 12
he got thoroughly eviscerated on facebook. i have better things to do than argue back and forth with him. they already told him it was about looking at the pattern of what happens, they already told him they've tested police in a lab and police shoot black people faster. they've explained that bias is often subconscious, so no nobody thinks the police went in thinking he's white let's save his life. he's completely clueless and in denial. he's posting here for approval. i don't care if he gets it or not.
legsdiamond Member since May 05th 2011 79594 posts
Sat Nov-28-15 10:51 AM
16. "Well, he will get the chosen few on his side...lol" In response to Reply # 14
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
Atillah Moor Member since Sep 05th 2013 13825 posts
Mon Nov-30-15 05:44 PM
79. "your head is actually up your ass on this one " In response to Reply # 11
If the cops can bring a military grade arsenal to deal with protesters then they can do the same for a man with an AK who was actually killing cops. LaQuan didn't have to be killed if this man didn't. It may not be just about race but of the few sides to this scenario it's okay to call it what it is.
______________________________________
Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days
66. "i mean i didn't count, it's probably between 50/50 and 80/20 though" In response to Reply # 58
i figured any reasoned response at all would be a win, so the people screaming on me or arguing against points i never made (and never would) are just sort of amusing to me.
i don't usually fuck with famous people's facebook like this so just watching the whole thing continue to go and go and go is pretty amusing to me.
legsdiamond Member since May 05th 2011 79594 posts
Sat Nov-28-15 08:37 AM
3. "Does somewhat mean totally " In response to Reply # 0
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
21. "Tim Wise is selling his product, and selling it very well." In response to Reply # 0
He's basically made a living off of viewing every single issue under a singular lens. I've yet to hear him have any insight about anything outside of his perception on race - and he's basically become the default 'share' on Facebook as the white guy who 'gets it' -- I thought it was played out 10 years ago. Guess not.
74. "sounds about right" In response to Reply # 21
and there are plenty of things he says that i agree with 200% but sometimes i wonder if he's capable of talking about anything else or viewing anything outside the scope of #whiteprivilege.
and i feel bad because I'll read his shit and be like PREAC... oh fuck, this guy again? lol
>He's basically made a living off of viewing every single >issue under a singular lens. I've yet to hear him have any >insight about anything outside of his perception on race - and >he's basically become the default 'share' on Facebook as the >white guy who 'gets it' -- I thought it was played out 10 >years ago. Guess not. > >-->
Atillah Moor Member since Sep 05th 2013 13825 posts
Mon Nov-30-15 05:38 PM
78. "funny thing is he's doing exactly what white folks who care should" In response to Reply # 21
i.e. sharing this perspective with white folks who will listen. I wouldn't knock him. There needs to be more Time Wises and fewer "insert name of cop who kills black folks".
______________________________________
Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days
22. "This kinda goes to my issue with the word privilege" In response to Reply # 0 Sat Nov-28-15 11:42 AM by Jon
The actual concept that the term "white privilege" or "(something) privilege" refers to is an important one, but using the word "privilege" I believe imparts a certain subliminal (or even overt) mindset that these basics of respect and dignity are somehow extra shit that ppl don't deserve and the true norm that everyone ought to be at is the way an oppressed group is treated.
It gives off the impression that people don't have a right to be treated better, that the worst-treated group only really deserve that and the treatment of the better-treated group is some extra bonus that should be removed.
Having a cab driver actually stop and let you in or a cop not shoot your son for walking away shouldn't be seen as a special privilege, it should be expected. It should be a basic right of dignified human existence. When there's a group of people who are denied these basics, the basics need to still be seen as basics and the vernacular needs to reflect that, otherwise people start getting confused to the point of being upset at the fact that a white person didn't get killed rather than say "that's how it should always be for everyone."
(I'll save the fact that plenty of white ppl do get murdered and brutalized by cops that never make the news and plenty of black ppl are taken alive for another time, because the reality is there's still a giant discrepancy between the way whited and blacks are treated and that discrepancy needs to be adjusted upward not downward)
I'm not sure what the right word would be, but it should be more like "nonwhite disprivilege" (but catchier), because the goal should be fewer blacks being treated like shit so we're all doing well, not more whites being treated like shit so we're all doing bad.
35. "RE: This kinda goes to my issue with the word privilege" In response to Reply # 22
You really believe this ?
>The actual concept that the term "white privilege" or >"(something) privilege" refers to is an important one, but >using the word "privilege" I believe imparts a certain >subliminal (or even overt) mindset that these basics of >respect and dignity are somehow extra shit that ppl don't >deserve and the true norm that everyone ought to be at is the >way an oppressed group is treated. >
47. "Yeah, a privilege is an extra benefit. While a large amount " In response to Reply # 35 Sat Nov-28-15 12:42 PM by Jon
(not all but id venture to say most) of the things we call "white privilege" or "(insert) privilege" are things that should be considered basics of a dignified existence, not privileges at all, and the fact that certain people are denied some of those basics is the issue we should focus on.
It's not a privilege to be able to assert yourself (within reason) to a cop without getting killed on the spot. It's a basic right. It shouldnt be seen as some bonus extra. The fact that a black person (or a poor white person) could never get away with talking smart to Officer Jimbob is the problem, not the fact that Bradley Uppercrust can.
There's a million examples I'm just picking one out a hat to make my point
57. "RE: Yeah, a privilege is an extra benefit. While a large amount " In response to Reply # 47
>(not all but id venture to say most) of the things we call >"white privilege" or "(insert) privilege" are things that >should be considered basics of a dignified existence, not >privileges at all, and the fact that certain people are denied >some of those basics is the issue we should focus on. > >It's not a privilege to be able to assert yourself (within >reason) to a cop without getting killed on the spot. It's a >basic right. It shouldnt be seen as some bonus extra. The fact >that a black person (or a poor white person) could never get >away with talking smart to Officer Jimbob is the problem, not >the fact that Bradley Uppercrust can. > >There's a million examples I'm just picking one out a hat to >make my point > >
The problem with your strict technical interpretation of white privilege, is the limits you place on. It sounds like you are saying people want to lower the bar instead of raisin it. Do you really believe people who use white privilege, are calling for more murder and death spread out equally ?
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
27. "I don't understand why these arguments are made with isolated cases." In response to Reply # 0 Sat Nov-28-15 12:01 PM by denny
It's not like there's not macro-level statistics that prove there is racism in law enforcement.
The fact that you can find black man x who was murdered by police and white man y who was captured alive proves nothing. And it's such an inane argument to make because it can easily be refuted (in logical terms) by finding a white man a who was murdered by police and a black man b who was captured alive. So now what? The argument necessarily has to refer back to macro trends in the end anyways in order to disregard deviations from the mean.
Macro statistics should be the basis of these arguments. It's not like they don't exist in abundance in regards to race and policing. People say that the public needs personal, isolated stories to mobilize. They tend to weaken arguments in the long run imo because then the particulars of isolated incidents become escape hatches/gotya moments for apologists and deniers of these social problems. Contrasting seperate, isolated incidents really plays to the advantage of the other side because we can all sit here all day long and selectively choose which incidents to focus on to argue any and everything.
I'm not spending any more time debating isolated incidents as a symbol for a larger trend. Whether or not Michael Brown attacked that cop is completely irrelevant to the larger, more quantifiable issue....that black people are criminalized by police and are disproportionately represented as the victims of police brutality. As long as we're arguing about ONE incident the other side will have a chance....and sometimes they will even WIN the debate when evidence is uncovered about the particular circumstances of that incident.
I'm not interested in losing any debates with deniers of racism in law enforcement so I don't see the benefit in placing the legitimacy of my arguments on details and circumstances of particular incidents that I'm not even privy to ....hoping that they line up/coincide with whatever agenda I have. Because even when they don't.....the greater issue remains.
I AM privy to statistics regarding black men and prison. Focusing on isolated circumstances distracts us from the real data which is quantifiable and irrefutable. Placing all our eggs in one basket....and then finding out that particular basket has a hole in it is the other side's okeydoke. These debates about Michael Brown's intentions/guilt/whatever are relevant to his family and friends and the cops directly involved. They are completely irrelevant to the larger issue because one person will never encapsulate, legitimize or de-legitimize, a society-wide phenomenon which can be quantified as fact.
46. "RE: I don't understand why these arguments are made with isolated cases." In response to Reply # 27
>It's not like there's not macro-level statistics that prove >there is racism in law enforcement. > >The fact that you can find black man x who was murdered by >police and white man y who was captured alive proves nothing. >And it's such an inane argument to make because it can easily >be refuted (in logical terms) by finding a white man a who was >murdered by police and a black man b who was captured alive. >So now what? The argument necessarily has to refer back to >macro trends in the end anyways in order to disregard >deviations from the mean. >
Not really, most will have to use an apples and oranges argument, to prove a black man was captured alive.
>Macro statistics should be the basis of these arguments. It's >not like they don't exist in abundance in regards to race and >policing. People say that the public needs personal, isolated >stories to mobilize. They tend to weaken arguments in the >long run imo because then the particulars of isolated >incidents become escape hatches/gotya moments for apologists >and deniers of these social problems. Contrasting seperate, >isolated incidents really plays to the advantage of the other >side because we can all sit here all day long and selectively >choose which incidents to focus on to argue any and >everything.
Those escape hatches/gotya moments help expose apologists and deniers.
Point for the slow and contrary among us: that dude broke into a home, killed a person, raped more than one person, surrendered to police and was captured alive. I posted it in response to your assumed passive-aggressive 'apples/oranges' comment in a previous reply.
it's just a message board. You're doing a good job proving how wrong the post about this board turning more white conservative was. First you give two horrible examples then you attack the wrong person not to mention linking to a nazi site, Keep going.
Did the Black guy in your example kill police officers ?
legsdiamond Member since May 05th 2011 79594 posts
Sat Nov-28-15 01:35 PM
65. "Smh... niggas be loud, wrong and hypocritical" In response to Reply # 59
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
**************** TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*
>They tend to weaken arguments in the >long run imo because then the particulars of isolated >incidents become escape hatches/gotya moments for apologists >and deniers of these social problems. Contrasting seperate, >isolated incidents really plays to the advantage of the other >side because we can all sit here all day long and selectively >choose which incidents to focus on to argue any and >everything.
Yeah, something like those ridiculous stats Trump posted last week could be easily refuted, but these types of direct cases contrasted are usually just countered with cut/paste jobs of incidents of blacks being violent towards whites along with "Will Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton speak for this child's family?" "Why won't Obama address the knock-out game?", and an attempt to make it look like it's all equal. This just kind of plays right into that.
68. "I take no pleasure in knowing that a lot of ppl agreeing with me" In response to Reply # 67
Are part of the "will Jesse and Al speak for this officer?" crowd, but it's not like I'm out to win their favor.
Some issues really don't need to be divided on political or racial lines.
If what seems to be true about this guy's motive is true there are a lot of political discussions that need to be had but making political hay out of the police response is unnecessary and disgusting to me.
there are just far too many examples of this type of outcome to deny there's a discrepancy. That doesn't mean black people don't get taken alive on occasion.
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Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days
84. "Which is exactly why we can't point to isolated incidents" In response to Reply # 81 Mon Nov-30-15 08:10 PM by denny
to make our arguments. Or at least shouldn't...lest we waste our time.
I guess I find myself watching a cnn debate about whether Michael Brown reached for a gun (or any other similar distraction) and I say to myself 'WHO CARES!' Are black people disproportionately represented in prison or not? Do black people suffer more police brutality or not? So what are we even arguing about. Why does the legitimacy of the argument rest on the Michael Brown case?
85. "In sum: Anecdotal evidence proves nothing" In response to Reply # 27
The example I always use is: the oldest lady on record (a French woman, do not recall the name) smoked every day from when she was 16. Should we all go light up now?
--------------------------------- <--The drought is over
"have fun reveling in your pettiness tho" (C) Dula summing up 98% of OKS
"I didnt finish a damn thing...matter of fact I jerked off after she left." -Kobe speaking to investigators
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