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Subject: "The Internet Wayback Machine: Thoughts on Illmatic from 1994 " Previous topic | Next topic
Hitokiri
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Fri Jul-17-15 01:03 PM

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"The Internet Wayback Machine: Thoughts on Illmatic from 1994 "


  

          

I saw this posted on reddit a few weeks ago, and then yesterday it got posted by a relatively well known hip hop website. Biting and not crediting (turnabout is fair play). And so it seems in the earlier days of the internet there were hip hop discussions popping off on message boards and a few years ago google archived a lot of these boards. So now you can search and read (and even comment on) these discussions from way back.

So in '94, Illmatic could be polarizing in some ways, despite how we typically view it today.

•••Thoughts on Illmatic in 94 (“Album of the year? In April? Please...ya'll are trippin.'” ):

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.rap/ruppq7RUiCs

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!search/illmatic/alt.rap/FxfyFrqfxSI/wjHqxHajrP8J

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.rap/SHAE1nysAvg

•••Nas or AZ from 95

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.music.hip-hop/AZ$20is$20better$20than$20nas/rec.music.hip-hop/-ew9luLfwMg/XhVhwE2G1ioJ


•••Nas vs. Jay-Z from 97 & 98:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.hip-hop/tTJX4dDIC80

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!search/illmatic/rec.music.hip-hop/ChwiSinUBvU/-tFGzp7UQ68J


•••Bonus: Wu-Tang has many meanings from 97

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.hip-hop/9-W4_G0_eRY

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
RE: The Internet Wayback Machine: Thoughts on Illmatic from 1994
Jul 17th 2015
1
I dunno... I was too busy laughing at "it ain't ALL that and a bag of ch...
Jul 17th 2015
2
I think I remember that dude from the old message board days
Jul 17th 2015
4
WTF! Lmao I'm reading this now
Jul 20th 2015
19
lmmfao
Jul 17th 2015
3
O-Dub gotta be mad as hell this shit resurfaced.
Jul 17th 2015
5
lol
Jul 17th 2015
6
Lol!
Jul 17th 2015
8
he wrote about it. i'm dying:
Jul 17th 2015
7
Mostly, I regret that it’s still on the interwebs two decades later.
Jul 17th 2015
9
For me I immediately though it was a classic. But I'm younger than
Jul 17th 2015
10
"I really was a bit of a toy back then."
Jul 17th 2015
13
What's the story?
Jul 20th 2015
17
      Basic "Reaction to a mediocre review of their material" shit
Jul 20th 2015
18
This will be me in 2035 about Dirty Sprite 2
Jul 20th 2015
20
      RE: This will be me in 2035 about Dirty Sprite 2
Jul 20th 2015
21
      Nah fam, this will be those shitting on TPAB
Jul 20th 2015
22
Somebody smack dat O-Dub ninja.
Jul 17th 2015
11
I remember being mad that it was so short
Jul 17th 2015
12
Everyone in NYC was pretty much stupefied by "Illmatic"
Jul 17th 2015
14
showtime has a good documentary on illmatic...
Jul 18th 2015
15
Time is Illmatic?
Jul 20th 2015
16

double 0
Member since Nov 17th 2004
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Fri Jul-17-15 01:15 PM

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1. "RE: The Internet Wayback Machine: Thoughts on Illmatic from 1994 "
In response to Reply # 0


          

a.k.a The Live Abortion.....


wtf

Double 0
DJ/Producer/Artist
Producer in Kidz In The Hall
-------------------------------------------
twitter: @godouble0
IG: @godouble0
www.thinklikearapper.com

  

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Hitokiri
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Fri Jul-17-15 01:28 PM

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2. "I dunno... I was too busy laughing at "it ain't ALL that and a bag of ch..."
In response to Reply # 1
Fri Jul-17-15 01:28 PM by Hitokiri

  

          

Bwahahahaha!

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

  

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mrhood75
Member since Dec 06th 2004
44729 posts
Fri Jul-17-15 02:51 PM

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4. "I think I remember that dude from the old message board days"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

-----------------

www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

  

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-DJ R-Tistic-
Member since Nov 06th 2008
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Mon Jul-20-15 01:11 PM

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19. "WTF! Lmao I'm reading this now"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

------------------------------

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Dr Claw
Member since Jun 25th 2003
132214 posts
Fri Jul-17-15 02:07 PM

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3. "lmmfao"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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IkeMoses
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70875 posts
Fri Jul-17-15 03:08 PM

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5. "O-Dub gotta be mad as hell this shit resurfaced."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

-30-
You know it's drama, but it sound real good.

  

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T Reynolds
Member since Apr 16th 2007
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Fri Jul-17-15 03:12 PM

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6. "lol"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

  

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Hitokiri
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Fri Jul-17-15 03:55 PM

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8. "Lol!"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

no APAthy!

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

  

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IkeMoses
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Fri Jul-17-15 03:16 PM

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7. "he wrote about it. i'm dying:"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://www.waxpoetics.com/features/guest-blog/rap-journalist-oliver-wang-denied-illmatic-classic-twenty-years-ago-regrets/

Rap journalist Oliver Wang denied that Illmatic was a classic twenty years ago. We all have our regrets.
Twenty years later, Nas's masterpiece still stands the test of time

by Oliver Wang

Back in the primordial days of the Internet, even before “WWW” had become a household term, there were message boards. On one of them, alt.rap, I wrote this on 4/20/94:

“Look, is NOT the second coming…please get off the Source’s jock!!! This is a good album. This is a great album. This is probably the best debut to come out of New York since Black Moon’s Enta Da Stage. BUT, this is not the classic everybody’s been calling… Naw man. Like Criminal Minded or Paid in Full? C’mon.”

A few points:

Yes, I actually wrote that twenty years ago.
Yes, I regret that I wrote it. Mostly, I regret that it’s still on the interwebs two decades later.
Yes, I completely got this one wrong. Wasn’t the first, sure as hell wasn’t the last.
In my defense, I was… Actually, I can’t mount a credible defense. I was young, overly opinionated, and worst of all: a close-minded listener. My initial reaction to Illmatic was that it didn’t sound like I thought it might and I was so self-centered then that I processed that surprise as a shortcoming of the album instead of a product of my narrow expectations. (I probably shouldn’t admit this but I felt the same way about Low End Theory on first listen too: I didn’t get why it was so bass heavy, thus completely missing the point of the album title. I really was a bit of a toy back then.)

The irony is that, of course, Illmatic would eventually become one of my favorite albums ever—and yes, a classic—though that transformation didn’t happen overnight. It’s more like it unfolded in stages, where I gradually became more attuned into its transcendent qualities. Obviously, there’s been much ink spilled over Illmatic’s importance and you don’t need me to build a case for its canonization (least of all since I already gutted my credibility with that 1994 post). However, by way of paying penance for my previous foolishness, and in celebration of the album’s twentieth anniversary (accompanied by the new Illmatic XX release), let me highlight a few qualities that have continued to stand out the most to me (and that I should have caught back then).

First of all, while Nas’s cinematic storytelling on Illmatic is rightfully lauded (especially on “One Love”), what impresses me even more is the sublimity of his flow. When he first broke out, on guest spots like “Live at the BBQ” and “Back to the Grill,” people would talk about his imaginative, bugged-out lines: “kidnap the President’s wife without a plan” or “pointing automatic guns at nuns.” However, more than any single line off the album—and Illmatic has notable quotables for days—it’s Nas’s delivery that continues to be a thing of utter, devastating beauty. This may be too obvious, but come back to how he opens “NY State of Mind,” after telling us he doesn’t know how to start this (yo):

Rappers, I monkey flip ’em with the funky rhythm I be kickin’
Musician, inflictin’ composition
Of pain, I’m like Scarface sniffin’ cocaine
Holding an M-16, see with the pen I’m extreme, now

Not only does he cram over fifty syllables in those four bars, but the rhyme scheme is as precise as the imagery is wild. Most rappers would feel triumphant to just get that far, but then Nas races ahead and drops forty bars worth in that opening set of verses, seemingly exhaling everything out in one breath. Those verses instantly clarified the difference between possessing style vs. trying to be stylized (think tongue-twiggety gimmicks or weird tonal inflections, both of which Jay Z was guilty of back then). Every time I listen to “NY State of Mind,” I never failed to be awed, wondering in what fever dream did Nas manifest those lines and the alacrity necessary to corral them. He’s hit that stride again and again throughout his career (most recently on “The Don”), but Nas was nineteen/twenty years old when he penned “NY State of Mind.” Just sit with that for a moment.

His age is actually relevant for the other dimension to Illmatic that continues to haunt me. I probably didn’t start listening to the album again—end to end—until the late ’90s, when I had gotten to the point where I felt the tug of nostalgia towards it (cue: “jiggy era rant”) and what I was struck by in making that return was how deeply nostalgic Illmatic itself is despite it being a debut album by a rapper barely out of his teens. Yet Nas wants to play elder statesman here, dispensing counsel from project benches, mentoring gun-happy QB shorties when he’s not cutting songs literally called “Memory Lane.” No rappers like to be thought of as old, but Nas wants the listener to know that he’s wise beyond his years, dropping that “ancient manifested hip-hop straight off the block.” Then again, it would take a young man’s moxie for Nas to dare sell himself as an old soul, but it’s hard to argue with how convincingly he pulls it off.

Lastly—and this is something that I undoubtedly couldn’t have fully appreciated back in 1994—there is an incredible simplicity and purity to the album with its ten tracks and forty-minute run time. That kind of economy was rare even then, let alone by decade’s end where it seemed like everyone needed to drop a double album (Nas included). Maybe that’s why the two “anniversary” editions—the Platinum Series (2004) and the new XX set—don’t add much to the album’s luster or legacy; their “bonus” material (remixes, unreleased songs) do little to change, let alone improve our impressions of the album or the artist.1

Perhaps the most potent gem slipped into the XX edition is the liner notes’ centerfold photo: Premier, Q-Tip, and Large Professor standing in the studio. There’s a few folks MIA (Pete Rock, AZ, L.E.S.), but the image of those four men says enough for a platoon. An elite handful of hip-hop’s greatest talents got together and created themselves a classic. I was too short-sighted to properly perceive that accomplishment in ’94, but I’ve spent the last twenty years, and probably will spend the next twenty years, gazing into that brilliance.

Oliver Wang still writes silly things on the Internet, usually for his site, Soul-Sides.com.

-30-
You know it's drama, but it sound real good.

  

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Hitokiri
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Fri Jul-17-15 03:58 PM

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9. "Mostly, I regret that it’s still on the interwebs two decades later."
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

lmao!
Good find.

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

  

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T Reynolds
Member since Apr 16th 2007
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Fri Jul-17-15 04:00 PM

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10. "For me I immediately though it was a classic. But I'm younger than"
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

O-Dub

  

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mrhood75
Member since Dec 06th 2004
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Fri Jul-17-15 04:56 PM

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13. ""I really was a bit of a toy back then.""
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

I wonder if him and Jean Grae or Louis Logic ever squashed their beef.

-----------------

www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

  

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Hitokiri
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Mon Jul-20-15 12:26 PM

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17. "What's the story?"
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

nm

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

  

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mrhood75
Member since Dec 06th 2004
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Mon Jul-20-15 12:41 PM

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18. "Basic "Reaction to a mediocre review of their material" shit"
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

O-Dub gave one or a couple of their 12"s either bad or so-so reviews (it's been so long that I can't even remember) and they didn't appreciate it. Each dissed him on record; Louis Logic spent a verse dissing him on "Fair Weather Fan" and Jean Grae had a fairly vicious dis during one of "freestyle" bonus tracks at the end of her "Bootleg of a Bootleg" EP.

O-Dub addressed it in an editorial he wrote once, and said he'd tried to talk it out with both of them (plus Double K from PUTS, but I believe they've actually squashed it by now), but to no avail. If I recall, Louis Logic essentially told him, "I just don't like you."

O-Dub was fairly merciless with his critques back then, which a lot of underground MCs/groups weren't used to. I didn't always agree with him, but I at least respected him taking and stance and sticking to it.

By today's Twitter/trolling standards, the stuff he said back then is comparatively tame.

-----------------

www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

  

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-DJ R-Tistic-
Member since Nov 06th 2008
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Mon Jul-20-15 01:19 PM

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20. "This will be me in 2035 about Dirty Sprite 2"
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

Because I'm not at allllllllllll understanding the hype right now.

------------------------------

50+ FREE Mixes on www.DJR-Tistic.com!

Twitter and Instagram - @DJ_RTistic

  

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double 0
Member since Nov 17th 2004
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Mon Jul-20-15 01:25 PM

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21. "RE: This will be me in 2035 about Dirty Sprite 2"
In response to Reply # 20


          

Ha..

The hype is for the tapes... he is being rewarded for the work he already put in..

Double 0
DJ/Producer/Artist
Producer in Kidz In The Hall
-------------------------------------------
twitter: @godouble0
IG: @godouble0
www.thinklikearapper.com

  

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Hitokiri
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Mon Jul-20-15 01:28 PM

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22. "Nah fam, this will be those shitting on TPAB"
In response to Reply # 20


  

          

I didn't wanna be the one to say it, but I believe it.

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

  

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NoDrawls McGraw
Member since Jun 24th 2007
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Fri Jul-17-15 04:48 PM

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11. "Somebody smack dat O-Dub ninja."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://chriswind.bandcamp.com/track/massage

"You can take an African out of Africa, but you can't take Africa out of the African"
Afro-Americana/Afro-Caribbana/Afro-Latino unite. We are ALL Black!

  

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j.
Member since Feb 24th 2009
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Fri Jul-17-15 04:54 PM

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12. "I remember being mad that it was so short"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

That's it? no more incredible beats and rhymes? WTF? fuck it, turn the tape over, play it again and again.

  

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micMajestic
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Fri Jul-17-15 06:07 PM

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14. "Everyone in NYC was pretty much stupefied by "Illmatic""
In response to Reply # 0


          

The complaints were usually about it's length, and if "One Time 4 Ya Mind" was on the same level as the rest of the album.

Let my love slide in and never slip out

  

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esb225
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Sat Jul-18-15 10:05 AM

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15. "showtime has a good documentary on illmatic... "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

and I am not a fan of Nas but this was pretty good.

I got a good life man

  

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Hitokiri
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Mon Jul-20-15 11:36 AM

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16. "Time is Illmatic?"
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

Yeah it's pretty good.
Except that they kinda act like Illmatic was created in a vacuum.

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

  

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