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"What ISIS really wants (long swipe)"


  

          

http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/02/what-isis-really-wants/384980/


What ISIS Really Wants

The Islamic State is no mere collection of psychopaths. It is a religious group with carefully considered beliefs, among them that it is a key agent of the coming apocalypse. Here’s what that means for its strategy—and for how to stop it.

Graeme Wood
MARCH 2015

What is the Islamic State?

Where did it come from, and what are its intentions? The simplicity of these questions can be deceiving, and few Western leaders seem to know the answers. In December, The New York Times published confidential comments by Major General Michael K. Nagata, the Special Operations commander for the United States in the Middle East, admitting that he had hardly begun figuring out the Islamic State’s appeal. “We have not defeated the idea,” he said. “We do not even understand the idea.” In the past year, President Obama has referred to the Islamic State, variously, as “not Islamic” and as al-Qaeda’s “jayvee team,” statements that reflected confusion about the group, and may have contributed to significant strategic errors.

The group seized Mosul, Iraq, last June, and already rules an area larger than the United Kingdom. Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi has been its leader since May 2010, but until last summer, his most recent known appearance on film was a grainy mug shot from a stay in U.S. captivity at Camp Bucca during the occupation of Iraq. Then, on July 5 of last year, he stepped into the pulpit of the Great Mosque of al-Nuri in Mosul, to deliver a Ramadan sermon as the first caliph in generations—upgrading his resolution from grainy to high-definition, and his position from hunted guerrilla to commander of all Muslims. The inflow of jihadists that followed, from around the world, was unprecedented in its pace and volume, and is continuing.

Our ignorance of the Islamic State is in some ways understandable: It is a hermit kingdom; few have gone there and returned. Baghdadi has spoken on camera only once. But his address, and the Islamic State’s countless other propaganda videos and encyclicals, are online, and the caliphate’s supporters have toiled mightily to make their project knowable. We can gather that their state rejects peace as a matter of principle; that it hungers for genocide; that its religious views make it constitutionally incapable of certain types of change, even if that change might ensure its survival; and that it considers itself a harbinger of—and headline player in—the imminent end of the world.

The Islamic State, also known as the Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham (ISIS), follows a distinctive variety of Islam whose beliefs about the path to the Day of Judgment matter to its strategy, and can help the West know its enemy and predict its behavior. Its rise to power is less like the triumph of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt (a group whose leaders the Islamic State considers apostates) than like the realization of a dystopian alternate reality in which David Koresh or Jim Jones survived to wield absolute power over not just a few hundred people, but some 8 million.

We have misunderstood the nature of the Islamic State in at least two ways. First, we tend to see jihadism as monolithic, and to apply the logic of al‑Qaeda to an organization that has decisively eclipsed it. The Islamic State supporters I spoke with still refer to Osama bin Laden as “Sheikh Osama,” a title of honor. But jihadism has evolved since al-Qaeda’s heyday, from about 1998 to 2003, and many jihadists disdain the group’s priorities and current leadership.

Bin Laden viewed his terrorism as a prologue to a caliphate he did not expect to see in his lifetime. His organization was flexible, operating as a geographically diffuse network of autonomous cells. The Islamic State, by contrast, requires territory to remain legitimate, and a top-down structure to rule it. (Its bureaucracy is divided into civil and military arms, and its territory into provinces.)

We are misled in a second way, by a well-intentioned but dishonest campaign to deny the Islamic State’s medieval religious nature. Peter Bergen, who produced the first interview with bin Laden in 1997, titled his first book Holy War, Inc. in part to acknowledge bin Laden as a creature of the modern secular world. Bin Laden corporatized terror and franchised it out. He requested specific political concessions, such as the withdrawal of U.S. forces from Saudi Arabia. His foot soldiers navigated the modern world confidently. On Mohammad Atta’s last full day of life, he shopped at Walmart and ate dinner at Pizza Hut.

There is a temptation to rehearse this observation—that jihadists are modern secular people, with modern political concerns, wearing medieval religious disguise—and make it fit the Islamic State. In fact, much of what the group does looks nonsensical except in light of a sincere, carefully considered commitment to returning civilization to a seventh-century legal environment, and ultimately to bringing about the apocalypse.

The most-articulate spokesmen for that position are the Islamic State’s officials and supporters themselves. They refer derisively to “moderns.” In conversation, they insist that they will not—cannot—waver from governing precepts that were embedded in Islam by the Prophet Muhammad and his earliest followers. They often speak in codes and allusions that sound odd or old-fashioned to non-Muslims, but refer to specific traditions and texts of early Islam.

To take one example: In September, Sheikh Abu Muhammad al-Adnani, the Islamic State’s chief spokesman, called on Muslims in Western countries such as France and Canada to find an infidel and “smash his head with a rock,” poison him, run him over with a car, or “destroy his crops.” To Western ears, the biblical-sounding punishments—the stoning and crop destruction—juxtaposed strangely with his more modern-sounding call to vehicular homicide. (As if to show that he could terrorize by imagery alone, Adnani also referred to Secretary of State John Kerry as an “uncircumcised geezer.”)

But Adnani was not merely talking trash. His speech was laced with theological and legal discussion, and his exhortation to attack crops directly echoed orders from Muhammad to leave well water and crops alone—unless the armies of Islam were in a defensive position, in which case Muslims in the lands of kuffar, or infidels, should be unmerciful, and poison away.

The reality is that the Islamic State is Islamic. Very Islamic. Yes, it has attracted psychopaths and adventure seekers, drawn largely from the disaffected populations of the Middle East and Europe. But the religion preached by its most ardent followers derives from coherent and even learned interpretations of Islam.

Virtually every major decision and law promulgated by the Islamic State adheres to what it calls, in its press and pronouncements, and on its billboards, license plates, stationery, and coins, “the Prophetic methodology,” which means following the prophecy and example of Muhammad, in punctilious detail. Muslims can reject the Islamic State; nearly all do. But pretending that it isn’t actually a religious, millenarian group, with theology that must be understood to be combatted, has already led the United States to underestimate it and back foolish schemes to counter it. We’ll need to get acquainted with the Islamic State’s intellectual genealogy if we are to react in a way that will not strengthen it, but instead help it self-immolate in its own excessive zeal.


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I. Devotion

In November, the Islamic State released an infomercial-like video tracing its origins to bin Laden. It acknowledged Abu Musa’b al Zarqawi, the brutal head of al‑Qaeda in Iraq from roughly 2003 until his killing in 2006, as a more immediate progenitor, followed sequentially by two other guerrilla leaders before Baghdadi, the caliph. Notably unmentioned: bin Laden’s successor, Ayman al Zawahiri, the owlish Egyptian eye surgeon who currently heads al‑Qaeda. Zawahiri has not pledged allegiance to Baghdadi, and he is increasingly hated by his fellow jihadists. His isolation is not helped by his lack of charisma; in videos he comes across as squinty and annoyed. But the split between al-Qaeda and the Islamic State has been long in the making, and begins to explain, at least in part, the outsize bloodlust of the latter.

Zawahiri’s companion in isolation is a Jordanian cleric named Abu Muhammad al Maqdisi, 55, who has a fair claim to being al-Qaeda’s intellectual architect and the most important jihadist unknown to the average American newspaper reader. On most matters of doctrine, Maqdisi and the Islamic State agree. Both are closely identified with the jihadist wing of a branch of Sunnism called Salafism, after the Arabic al salaf al salih, the “pious forefathers.” These forefathers are the Prophet himself and his earliest adherents, whom Salafis honor and emulate as the models for all behavior, including warfare, couture, family life, even dentistry.

Maqdisi taught Zarqawi, who went to war in Iraq with the older man’s advice in mind. In time, though, Zarqawi surpassed his mentor in fanaticism, and eventually earned his rebuke. At issue was Zarqawi’s penchant for bloody spectacle—and, as a matter of doctrine, his hatred of other Muslims, to the point of excommunicating and killing them. In Islam, the practice of takfir, or excommunication, is theologically perilous. “If a man says to his brother, ‘You are an infidel,’ ” the Prophet said, “then one of them is right.” If the accuser is wrong, he himself has committed apostasy by making a false accusation. The punishment for apostasy is death. And yet Zarqawi heedlessly expanded the range of behavior that could make Muslims infidels.

Maqdisi wrote to his former pupil that he needed to exercise caution and “not issue sweeping proclamations of takfir” or “proclaim people to be apostates because of their sins.” The distinction between apostate and sinner may appear subtle, but it is a key point of contention between al-Qaeda and the Islamic State.

Denying the holiness of the Koran or the prophecies of Muhammad is straightforward apostasy. But Zarqawi and the state he spawned take the position that many other acts can remove a Muslim from Islam. These include, in certain cases, selling alcohol or drugs, wearing Western clothes or shaving one’s beard, voting in an election—even for a Muslim candidate—and being lax about calling other people apostates. Being a Shiite, as most Iraqi Arabs are, meets the standard as well, because the Islamic State regards Shiism as innovation, and to innovate on the Koran is to deny its initial perfection. (The Islamic State claims that common Shiite practices, such as worship at the graves of imams and public self-flagellation, have no basis in the Koran or in the example of the Prophet.) That means roughly 200 million Shia are marked for death. So too are the heads of state of every Muslim country, who have elevated man-made law above Sharia by running for office or enforcing laws not made by God.

Following takfiri doctrine, the Islamic State is committed to purifying the world by killing vast numbers of people. The lack of objective reporting from its territory makes the true extent of the slaughter unknowable, but social-media posts from the region suggest that individual executions happen more or less continually, and mass executions every few weeks. Muslim “apostates” are the most common victims. Exempted from automatic execution, it appears, are Christians who do not resist their new government. Baghdadi permits them to live, as long as they pay a special tax, known as the jizya, and acknowledge their subjugation. The Koranic authority for this practice is not in dispute.

Centuries have passed since the wars of religion ceased in Europe, and since men stopped dying in large numbers because of arcane theological disputes. Hence, perhaps, the incredulity and denial with which Westerners have greeted news of the theology and practices of the Islamic State. Many refuse to believe that this group is as devout as it claims to be, or as backward-looking or apocalyptic as its actions and statements suggest.

Their skepticism is comprehensible. In the past, Westerners who accused Muslims of blindly following ancient scriptures came to deserved grief from academics—notably the late Edward Said—who pointed out that calling Muslims “ancient” was usually just another way to denigrate them. Look instead, these scholars urged, to the conditions in which these ideologies arose—the bad governance, the shifting social mores, the humiliation of living in lands valued only for their oil.

Without acknowledgment of these factors, no explanation of the rise of the Islamic State could be complete. But focusing on them to the exclusion of ideology reflects another kind of Western bias: that if religious ideology doesn’t matter much in Washington or Berlin, surely it must be equally irrelevant in Raqqa or Mosul. When a masked executioner says Allahu akbar while beheading an apostate, sometimes he’s doing so for religious reasons.

Many mainstream Muslim organizations have gone so far as to say the Islamic State is, in fact, un-Islamic. It is, of course, reassuring to know that the vast majority of Muslims have zero interest in replacing Hollywood movies with public executions as evening entertainment. But Muslims who call the Islamic State un-Islamic are typically, as the Princeton scholar Bernard Haykel, the leading expert on the group’s theology, told me, “embarrassed and politically correct, with a cotton-candy view of their own religion” that neglects “what their religion has historically and legally required.” Many denials of the Islamic State’s religious nature, he said, are rooted in an “interfaith-Christian-nonsense tradition.”

Every academic I asked about the Islamic State’s ideology sent me to Haykel. Of partial Lebanese descent, Haykel grew up in Lebanon and the United States, and when he talks through his Mephistophelian goatee, there is a hint of an unplaceable foreign accent.

According to Haykel, the ranks of the Islamic State are deeply infused with religious vigor. Koranic quotations are ubiquitous. “Even the foot soldiers spout this stuff constantly,” Haykel said. “They mug for their cameras and repeat their basic doctrines in formulaic fashion, and they do it all the time.” He regards the claim that the Islamic State has distorted the texts of Islam as preposterous, sustainable only through willful ignorance. “People want to absolve Islam,” he said. “It’s this ‘Islam is a religion of peace’ mantra. As if there is such a thing as ‘Islam’! It’s what Muslims do, and how they interpret their texts.” Those texts are shared by all Sunni Muslims, not just the Islamic State. “And these guys have just as much legitimacy as anyone else.”

All Muslims acknowledge that Muhammad’s earliest conquests were not tidy affairs, and that the laws of war passed down in the Koran and in the narrations of the Prophet’s rule were calibrated to fit a turbulent and violent time. In Haykel’s estimation, the fighters of the Islamic State are authentic throwbacks to early Islam and are faithfully reproducing its norms of war. This behavior includes a number of practices that modern Muslims tend to prefer not to acknowledge as integral to their sacred texts. “Slavery, crucifixion, and beheadings are not something that freakish are cherry-picking from the medieval tradition,” Haykel said. Islamic State fighters “are smack in the middle of the medieval tradition and are bringing it wholesale into the present day.”

The Koran specifies crucifixion as one of the only punishments permitted for enemies of Islam. The tax on Christians finds clear endorsement in the Surah Al-Tawba, the Koran’s ninth chapter, which instructs Muslims to fight Christians and Jews “until they pay the jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” The Prophet, whom all Muslims consider exemplary, imposed these rules and owned slaves.

Leaders of the Islamic State have taken emulation of Muhammad as strict duty, and have revived traditions that have been dormant for hundreds of years. “What’s striking about them is not just the literalism, but also the seriousness with which they read these texts,” Haykel said. “There is an assiduous, obsessive seriousness that Muslims don’t normally have.”

Before the rise of the Islamic State, no group in the past few centuries had attempted more-radical fidelity to the Prophetic model than the Wahhabis of 18th‑century Arabia. They conquered most of what is now Saudi Arabia, and their strict practices survive in a diluted version of Sharia there. Haykel sees an important distinction between the groups, though: “The Wahhabis were not wanton in their violence.” They were surrounded by Muslims, and they conquered lands that were already Islamic; this stayed their hand. “ISIS, by contrast, is really reliving the early period.” Early Muslims were surrounded by non-Muslims, and the Islamic State, because of its takfiri tendencies, considers itself to be in the same situation.

If al-Qaeda wanted to revive slavery, it never said so. And why would it? Silence on slavery probably reflected strategic thinking, with public sympathies in mind: when the Islamic State began enslaving people, even some of its supporters balked. Nonetheless, the caliphate has continued to embrace slavery and crucifixion without apology. “We will conquer your Rome, break your crosses, and enslave your women,” Adnani, the spokesman, promised in one of his periodic valentines to the West. “If we do not reach that time, then our children and grandchildren will reach it, and they will sell your sons as slaves at the slave market.”

In October, Dabiq, the magazine of the Islamic State, published “The Revival of Slavery Before the Hour,” an article that took up the question of whether Yazidis (the members of an ancient Kurdish sect that borrows elements of Islam, and had come under attack from Islamic State forces in northern Iraq) are lapsed Muslims, and therefore marked for death, or merely pagans and therefore fair game for enslavement. A study group of Islamic State scholars had convened, on government orders, to resolve this issue. If they are pagans, the article’s anonymous author wrote,

Yazidi women and children divided according to the Shariah amongst the fighters of the Islamic State who participated in the Sinjar operations … Enslaving the families of the kuffar and taking their women as concubines is a firmly established aspect of the Shariah that if one were to deny or mock, he would be denying or mocking the verses of the Koran and the narrations of the Prophet … and thereby apostatizing from Islam.


II. Territory

Tens of thousands of foreign Muslims are thought to have immigrated to the Islamic State. Recruits hail from France, the United Kingdom, Belgium, Germany, Holland, Australia, Indonesia, the United States, and many other places. Many have come to fight, and many intend to die.

Peter R. Neumann, a professor at King’s College London, told me that online voices have been essential to spreading propaganda and ensuring that newcomers know what to believe. Online recruitment has also widened the demographics of the jihadist community, by allowing conservative Muslim women—physically isolated in their homes—to reach out to recruiters, radicalize, and arrange passage to Syria. Through its appeals to both genders, the Islamic State hopes to build a complete society.

In November, I traveled to Australia to meet Musa Cerantonio, a 30-year-old man whom Neumann and other researchers had identified as one of the two most important “new spiritual authorities” guiding foreigners to join the Islamic State. For three years he was a televangelist on Iqraa TV in Cairo, but he left after the station objected to his frequent calls to establish a caliphate. Now he preaches on Facebook and Twitter.

Cerantonio—a big, friendly man with a bookish demeanor—told me he blanches at beheading videos. He hates seeing the violence, even though supporters of the Islamic State are required to endorse it. (He speaks out, controversially among jihadists, against suicide bombing, on the grounds that God forbids suicide; he differs from the Islamic State on a few other points as well.) He has the kind of unkempt facial hair one sees on certain overgrown fans of The Lord of the Rings, and his obsession with Islamic apocalypticism felt familiar. He seemed to be living out a drama that looks, from an outsider’s perspective, like a medieval fantasy novel, only with real blood.

Last June, Cerantonio and his wife tried to emigrate—he wouldn’t say to where (“It’s illegal to go to Syria,” he said cagily)—but they were caught en route, in the Philippines, and he was deported back to Australia for overstaying his visa. Australia has criminalized attempts to join or travel to the Islamic State, and has confiscated Cerantonio’s passport. He is stuck in Melbourne, where he is well known to the local constabulary. If Cerantonio were caught facilitating the movement of individuals to the Islamic State, he would be imprisoned. So far, though, he is free—a technically unaffiliated ideologue who nonetheless speaks with what other jihadists have taken to be a reliable voice on matters of the Islamic State’s doctrine.

We met for lunch in Footscray, a dense, multicultural Melbourne suburb that’s home to Lonely Planet, the travel-guide publisher. Cerantonio grew up there in a half-Irish, half-Calabrian family. On a typical street one can find African restaurants, Vietnamese shops, and young Arabs walking around in the Salafi uniform of scraggly beard, long shirt, and trousers ending halfway down the calves.

Cerantonio explained the joy he felt when Baghdadi was declared the caliph on June 29—and the sudden, magnetic attraction that Mesopotamia began to exert on him and his friends. “I was in a hotel , and I saw the declaration on television,” he told me. “And I was just amazed, and I’m like, Why am I stuck here in this bloody room?”

The last caliphate was the Ottoman empire, which reached its peak in the 16th century and then experienced a long decline, until the founder of the Republic of Turkey, Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, euthanized it in 1924. But Cerantonio, like many supporters of the Islamic State, doesn’t acknowledge that caliphate as legitimate, because it didn’t fully enforce Islamic law, which requires stonings and slavery and amputations, and because its caliphs were not descended from the tribe of the Prophet, the Quraysh.

Baghdadi spoke at length of the importance of the caliphate in his Mosul sermon. He said that to revive the institution of the caliphate—which had not functioned except in name for about 1,000 years—was a communal obligation. He and his loyalists had “hastened to declare the caliphate and place an imam” at its head, he said. “This is a duty upon the Muslims—a duty that has been lost for centuries … The Muslims sin by losing it, and they must always seek to establish it.” Like bin Laden before him, Baghdadi spoke floridly, with frequent scriptural allusion and command of classical rhetoric. Unlike bin Laden, and unlike those false caliphs of the Ottoman empire, he is Qurayshi.

The caliphate, Cerantonio told me, is not just a political entity but also a vehicle for salvation. Islamic State propaganda regularly reports the pledges of baya’a (allegiance) rolling in from jihadist groups across the Muslim world. Cerantonio quoted a Prophetic saying, that to die without pledging allegiance is to die jahil (ignorant) and therefore die a “death of disbelief.” Consider how Muslims (or, for that matter, Christians) imagine God deals with the souls of people who die without learning about the one true religion. They are neither obviously saved nor definitively condemned. Similarly, Cerantonio said, the Muslim who acknowledges one omnipotent god and prays, but who dies without pledging himself to a valid caliph and incurring the obligations of that oath, has failed to live a fully Islamic life. I pointed out that this means the vast majority of Muslims in history, and all who passed away between 1924 and 2014, died a death of disbelief. Cerantonio nodded gravely. “I would go so far as to say that Islam has been reestablished” by the caliphate.

I asked him about his own baya’a, and he quickly corrected me: “I didn’t say that I’d pledged allegiance.” Under Australian law, he reminded me, giving baya’a to the Islamic State was illegal. “But I agree that fulfills the requirements,” he continued. “I’m just going to wink at you, and you take that to mean whatever you want.”

To be the caliph, one must meet conditions outlined in Sunni law—being a Muslim adult man of Quraysh descent; exhibiting moral probity and physical and mental integrity; and having ’amr, or authority. This last criterion, Cerantonio said, is the hardest to fulfill, and requires that the caliph have territory in which he can enforce Islamic law. Baghdadi’s Islamic State achieved that long before June 29, Cerantonio said, and as soon as it did, a Western convert within the group’s ranks—Cerantonio described him as “something of a leader”—began murmuring about the religious obligation to declare a caliphate. He and others spoke quietly to those in power and told them that further delay would be sinful.

Cerantonio said a faction arose that was prepared to make war on Baghdadi’s group if it delayed any further. They prepared a letter to various powerful members of ISIS, airing their displeasure at the failure to appoint a caliph, but were pacified by Adnani, the spokesman, who let them in on a secret—that a caliphate had already been declared, long before the public announcement. They had their legitimate caliph, and at that point there was only one option. “If he’s legitimate,” Cerantonio said, “you must give him the baya’a.”

After Baghdadi’s July sermon, a stream of jihadists began flowing daily into Syria with renewed motivation. Jürgen Todenhöfer, a German author and former politician who visited the Islamic State in December, reported the arrival of 100 fighters at one Turkish-border recruitment station in just two days. His report, among others, suggests a still-steady inflow of foreigners, ready to give up everything at home for a shot at paradise in the worst place on Earth.

In London, a week before my meal with Cerantonio, I met with three ex-members of a banned Islamist group called Al Muhajiroun (The Emigrants): Anjem Choudary, Abu Baraa, and Abdul Muhid. They all expressed desire to emigrate to the Islamic State, as many of their colleagues already had, but the authorities had confiscated their passports. Like Cerantonio, they regarded the caliphate as the only righteous government on Earth, though none would confess having pledged allegiance. Their principal goal in meeting me was to explain what the Islamic State stands for, and how its policies reflect God’s law.

Choudary, 48, is the group’s former leader. He frequently appears on cable news, as one of the few people producers can book who will defend the Islamic State vociferously, until his mike is cut. He has a reputation in the United Kingdom as a loathsome blowhard, but he and his disciples sincerely believe in the Islamic State and, on matters of doctrine, speak in its voice. Choudary and the others feature prominently in the Twitter feeds of Islamic State residents, and Abu Baraa maintains a YouTube channel to answer questions about Sharia.

Since September, authorities have been investigating the three men on suspicion of supporting terrorism. Because of this investigation, they had to meet me separately: communication among them would have violated the terms of their bail. But speaking with them felt like speaking with the same person wearing different masks. Choudary met me in a candy shop in the East London suburb of Ilford. He was dressed smartly, in a crisp blue tunic reaching nearly to his ankles, and sipped a Red Bull while we talked.

Before the caliphate, “maybe 85 percent of the Sharia was absent from our lives,” Choudary told me. “These laws are in abeyance until we have khilafa”—a caliphate—“and now we have one.” Without a caliphate, for example, individual vigilantes are not obliged to amputate the hands of thieves they catch in the act. But create a caliphate, and this law, along with a huge body of other jurisprudence, suddenly awakens. In theory, all Muslims are obliged to immigrate to the territory where the caliph is applying these laws. One of Choudary’s prize students, a convert from Hinduism named Abu Rumaysah, evaded police to bring his family of five from London to Syria in November. On the day I met Choudary, Abu Rumaysah tweeted out a picture of himself with a Kalashnikov in one arm and his newborn son in the other. Hashtag: #GenerationKhilafah.

The caliph is required to implement Sharia. Any deviation will compel those who have pledged allegiance to inform the caliph in private of his error and, in extreme cases, to excommunicate and replace him if he persists. (“I have been plagued with this great matter, plagued with this responsibility, and it is a heavy responsibility,” Baghdadi said in his sermon.) In return, the caliph commands obedience—and those who persist in supporting non-Muslim governments, after being duly warned and educated about their sin, are considered apostates.

Choudary said Sharia has been misunderstood because of its incomplete application by regimes such as Saudi Arabia, which does behead murderers and cut off thieves’ hands. “The problem,” he explained, “is that when places like Saudi Arabia just implement the penal code, and don’t provide the social and economic justice of the Sharia—the whole package—they simply engender hatred toward the Sharia.” That whole package, he said, would include free housing, food, and clothing for all, though of course anyone who wished to enrich himself with work could do so.

Abdul Muhid, 32, continued along these lines. He was dressed in mujahideen chic when I met him at a local restaurant: scruffy beard, Afghan cap, and a wallet outside of his clothes, attached with what looked like a shoulder holster. When we sat down, he was eager to discuss welfare. The Islamic State may have medieval-style punishments for moral crimes (lashes for boozing or fornication, stoning for adultery), but its social-welfare program is, at least in some aspects, progressive to a degree that would please an MSNBC pundit. Health care, he said, is free. (“Isn’t it free in Britain, too?,” I asked. “Not really,” he said. “Some procedures aren’t covered, such as vision.”) This provision of social welfare was not, he said, a policy choice of the Islamic State, but a policy obligation inherent in God’s law.

III. The Apocalypse

All Muslims acknowledge that God is the only one who knows the future. But they also agree that he has offered us a peek at it, in the Koran and in narrations of the Prophet. The Islamic State differs from nearly every other current jihadist movement in believing that it is written into God’s script as a central character. It is in this casting that the Islamic State is most boldly distinctive from its predecessors, and clearest in the religious nature of its mission.

In broad strokes, al-Qaeda acts like an underground political movement, with worldly goals in sight at all times—the expulsion of non-Muslims from the Arabian peninsula, the abolishment of the state of Israel, the end of support for dictatorships in Muslim lands. The Islamic State has its share of worldly concerns (including, in the places it controls, collecting garbage and keeping the water running), but the End of Days is a leitmotif of its propaganda. Bin Laden rarely mentioned the apocalypse, and when he did, he seemed to presume that he would be long dead when the glorious moment of divine comeuppance finally arrived. “Bin Laden and Zawahiri are from elite Sunni families who look down on this kind of speculation and think it’s something the masses engage in,” says Will McCants of the Brookings Institution, who is writing a book about the Islamic State’s apocalyptic thought.

During the last years of the U.S. occupation of Iraq, the Islamic State’s immediate founding fathers, by contrast, saw signs of the end times everywhere. They were anticipating, within a year, the arrival of the Mahdi—a messianic figure destined to lead the Muslims to victory before the end of the world. McCants says a prominent Islamist in Iraq approached bin Laden in 2008 to warn him that the group was being led by millenarians who were “talking all the time about the Mahdi and making strategic decisions” based on when they thought the Mahdi was going to arrive. “Al-Qaeda had to write to to say ‘Cut it out.’ ”

For certain true believers—the kind who long for epic good-versus-evil battles—visions of apocalyptic bloodbaths fulfill a deep psychological need. Of the Islamic State supporters I met, Musa Cerantonio, the Australian, expressed the deepest interest in the apocalypse and how the remaining days of the Islamic State—and the world—might look. Parts of that prediction are original to him, and do not yet have the status of doctrine. But other parts are based on mainstream Sunni sources and appear all over the Islamic State’s propaganda. These include the belief that there will be only 12 legitimate caliphs, and Baghdadi is the eighth; that the armies of Rome will mass to meet the armies of Islam in northern Syria; and that Islam’s final showdown with an anti-Messiah will occur in Jerusalem after a period of renewed Islamic conquest.

The Islamic State has attached great importance to the Syrian city of Dabiq, near Aleppo. It named its propaganda magazine after the town, and celebrated madly when (at great cost) it conquered Dabiq’s strategically unimportant plains. It is here, the Prophet reportedly said, that the armies of Rome will set up their camp. The armies of Islam will meet them, and Dabiq will be Rome’s Waterloo or its Antietam.

“Dabiq is basically all farmland,” one Islamic State supporter recently tweeted. “You could imagine large battles taking place there.” The Islamic State’s propagandists drool with anticipation of this event, and constantly imply that it will come soon. The state’s magazine quotes Zarqawi as saying, “The spark has been lit here in Iraq, and its heat will continue to intensify … until it burns the crusader armies in Dabiq.” A recent propaganda video shows clips from Hollywood war movies set in medieval times—perhaps because many of the prophecies specify that the armies will be on horseback or carrying ancient weapons.

Now that it has taken Dabiq, the Islamic State awaits the arrival of an enemy army there, whose defeat will initiate the countdown to the apocalypse. Western media frequently miss references to Dabiq in the Islamic State’s videos, and focus instead on lurid scenes of beheading. “Here we are, burying the first American crusader in Dabiq, eagerly waiting for the remainder of your armies to arrive,” said a masked executioner in a November video, showing the severed head of Peter (Abdul Rahman) Kassig, the aid worker who’d been held captive for more than a year. During fighting in Iraq in December, after mujahideen (perhaps inaccurately) reported having seen American soldiers in battle, Islamic State Twitter accounts erupted in spasms of pleasure, like overenthusiastic hosts or hostesses upon the arrival of the first guests at a party.

The Prophetic narration that foretells the Dabiq battle refers to the enemy as Rome. Who “Rome” is, now that the pope has no army, remains a matter of debate. But Cerantonio makes a case that Rome meant the Eastern Roman empire, which had its capital in what is now Istanbul. We should think of Rome as the Republic of Turkey—the same republic that ended the last self-identified caliphate, 90 years ago. Other Islamic State sources suggest that Rome might mean any infidel army, and the Americans will do nicely.

After its battle in Dabiq, Cerantonio said, the caliphate will expand and sack Istanbul. Some believe it will then cover the entire Earth, but Cerantonio suggested its tide may never reach beyond the Bosporus. An anti-Messiah, known in Muslim apocalyptic literature as Dajjal, will come from the Khorasan region of eastern Iran and kill a vast number of the caliphate’s fighters, until just 5,000 remain, cornered in Jerusalem. Just as Dajjal prepares to finish them off, Jesus—the second-most-revered prophet in Islam—will return to Earth, spear Dajjal, and lead the Muslims to victory.

“Only God knows” whether the Islamic State’s armies are the ones foretold, Cerantonio said. But he is hopeful. “The Prophet said that one sign of the imminent arrival of the End of Days is that people will for a long while stop talking about the End of Days,” he said. “If you go to the mosques now, you’ll find the preachers are silent about this subject.” On this theory, even setbacks dealt to the Islamic State mean nothing, since God has preordained the near-destruction of his people anyway. The Islamic State has its best and worst days ahead of it.

IV. The Fight

The ideological purity of the Islamic State has one compensating virtue: it allows us to predict some of the group’s actions. Osama bin Laden was seldom predictable. He ended his first television interview cryptically. CNN’s Peter Arnett asked him, “What are your future plans?” Bin Laden replied, “You’ll see them and hear about them in the media, God willing.” By contrast, the Islamic State boasts openly about its plans—not all of them, but enough so that by listening carefully, we can deduce how it intends to govern and expand.

In London, Choudary and his students provided detailed descriptions of how the Islamic State must conduct its foreign policy, now that it is a caliphate. It has already taken up what Islamic law refers to as “offensive jihad,” the forcible expansion into countries that are ruled by non-Muslims. “Hitherto, we were just defending ourselves,” Choudary said; without a caliphate, offensive jihad is an inapplicable concept. But the waging of war to expand the caliphate is an essential duty of the caliph.

Choudary took pains to present the laws of war under which the Islamic State operates as policies of mercy rather than of brutality. He told me the state has an obligation to terrorize its enemies—a holy order to scare the shit out of them with beheadings and crucifixions and enslavement of women and children, because doing so hastens victory and avoids prolonged conflict.

Choudary’s colleague Abu Baraa explained that Islamic law permits only temporary peace treaties, lasting no longer than a decade. Similarly, accepting any border is anathema, as stated by the Prophet and echoed in the Islamic State’s propaganda videos. If the caliph consents to a longer-term peace or permanent border, he will be in error. Temporary peace treaties are renewable, but may not be applied to all enemies at once: the caliph must wage jihad at least once a year. He may not rest, or he will fall into a state of sin.

One comparison to the Islamic State is the Khmer Rouge, which killed about a third of the population of Cambodia. But the Khmer Rouge occupied Cambodia’s seat at the United Nations. “This is not permitted,” Abu Baraa said. “To send an ambassador to the UN is to recognize an authority other than God’s.” This form of diplomacy is shirk, or polytheism, he argued, and would be immediate cause to hereticize and replace Baghdadi. Even to hasten the arrival of a caliphate by democratic means—for example by voting for political candidates who favor a caliphate—is shirk.

It’s hard to overstate how hamstrung the Islamic State will be by its radicalism. The modern international system, born of the 1648 Peace of Westphalia, relies on each state’s willingness to recognize borders, however grudgingly. For the Islamic State, that recognition is ideological suicide. Other Islamist groups, such as the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas, have succumbed to the blandishments of democracy and the potential for an invitation to the community of nations, complete with a UN seat. Negotiation and accommodation have worked, at times, for the Taliban as well. (Under Taliban rule, Afghanistan exchanged ambassadors with Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and the United Arab Emirates, an act that invalidated the Taliban’s authority in the Islamic State’s eyes.) To the Islamic State these are not options, but acts of apostasy.

The United States and its allies have reacted to the Islamic State belatedly and in an apparent daze. The group’s ambitions and rough strategic blueprints were evident in its pronouncements and in social-media chatter as far back as 2011, when it was just one of many terrorist groups in Syria and Iraq and hadn’t yet committed mass atrocities. Adnani, the spokesman, told followers then that the group’s ambition was to “restore the Islamic caliphate,” and he evoked the apocalypse, saying, “There are but a few days left.” Baghdadi had already styled himself “commander of the faithful,” a title ordinarily reserved for caliphs, in 2011. In April 2013, Adnani declared the movement “ready to redraw the world upon the Prophetic methodology of the caliphate.” In August 2013, he said, “Our goal is to establish an Islamic state that doesn’t recognize borders, on the Prophetic methodology.” By then, the group had taken Raqqa, a Syrian provincial capital of perhaps 500,000 people, and was drawing in substantial numbers of foreign fighters who’d heard its message.

If we had identified the Islamic State’s intentions early, and realized that the vacuum in Syria and Iraq would give it ample space to carry them out, we might, at a minimum, have pushed Iraq to harden its border with Syria and preemptively make deals with its Sunnis. That would at least have avoided the electrifying propaganda effect created by the declaration of a caliphate just after the conquest of Iraq’s third-largest city. Yet, just over a year ago, Obama told The New Yorker that he considered ISIS to be al-Qaeda’s weaker partner. “If a jayvee team puts on Lakers uniforms that doesn’t make them Kobe Bryant,” the president said.

Our failure to appreciate the split between the Islamic State and al-Qaeda, and the essential differences between the two, has led to dangerous decisions. Last fall, to take one example, the U.S. government consented to a desperate plan to save Peter Kassig’s life. The plan facilitated—indeed, required—the interaction of some of the founding figures of the Islamic State and al-Qaeda, and could hardly have looked more hastily improvised.

It entailed the enlistment of Abu Muhammad al Maqdisi, the Zarqawi mentor and al-Qaeda grandee, to approach Turki al-Binali, the Islamic State’s chief ideologue and a former student of Maqdisi’s, even though the two men had fallen out due to Maqdisi’s criticism of the Islamic State. Maqdisi had already called for the state to extend mercy to Alan Henning, the British cabbie who had entered Syria to deliver aid to children. In December, The Guardian reported that the U.S. government, through an intermediary, had asked Maqdisi to intercede with the Islamic State on Kassig’s behalf.

Maqdisi was living freely in Jordan, but had been banned from communicating with terrorists abroad, and was being monitored closely. After Jordan granted the United States permission to reintroduce Maqdisi to Binali, Maqdisi bought a phone with American money and was allowed to correspond merrily with his former student for a few days, before the Jordanian government stopped the chats and used them as a pretext to jail Maqdisi. Kassig’s severed head appeared in the Dabiq video a few days later.

Maqdisi gets mocked roundly on Twitter by the Islamic State’s fans, and al‑Qaeda is held in great contempt for refusing to acknowledge the caliphate. Cole Bunzel, a scholar who studies Islamic State ideology, read Maqdisi’s opinion on Henning’s status and thought it would hasten his and other captives’ death. “If I were held captive by the Islamic State and Maqdisi said I shouldn’t be killed,” he told me, “I’d kiss my ass goodbye.”

Kassig’s death was a tragedy, but the plan’s success would have been a bigger one. A reconciliation between Maqdisi and Binali would have begun to heal the main rift between the world’s two largest jihadist organizations. It’s possible that the government wanted only to draw out Binali for intelligence purposes or assassination. (Multiple attempts to elicit comment from the FBI were unsuccessful.) Regardless, the decision to play matchmaker for America’s two main terrorist antagonists reveals astonishingly poor judgment.

Chastened by our earlier indifference, we are now meeting the Islamic State via Kurdish and Iraqi proxy on the battlefield, and with regular air assaults. Those strategies haven’t dislodged the Islamic State from any of its major territorial possessions, although they’ve kept it from directly assaulting Baghdad and Erbil and slaughtering Shia and Kurds there.

Some observers have called for escalation, including several predictable voices from the interventionist right (Max Boot, Frederick Kagan), who have urged the deployment of tens of thousands of American soldiers. These calls should not be dismissed too quickly: an avowedly genocidal organization is on its potential victims’ front lawn, and it is committing daily atrocities in the territory it already controls.

One way to un-cast the Islamic State’s spell over its adherents would be to overpower it militarily and occupy the parts of Syria and Iraq now under caliphate rule. Al‑Qaeda is ineradicable because it can survive, cockroach-like, by going underground. The Islamic State cannot. If it loses its grip on its territory in Syria and Iraq, it will cease to be a caliphate. Caliphates cannot exist as underground movements, because territorial authority is a requirement: take away its command of territory, and all those oaths of allegiance are no longer binding. Former pledges could of course continue to attack the West and behead their enemies, as freelancers. But the propaganda value of the caliphate would disappear, and with it the supposed religious duty to immigrate and serve it. If the United States were to invade, the Islamic State’s obsession with battle at Dabiq suggests that it might send vast resources there, as if in a conventional battle. If the state musters at Dabiq in full force, only to be routed, it might never recover.

And yet the risks of escalation are enormous. The biggest proponent of an American invasion is the Islamic State itself. The provocative videos, in which a black-hooded executioner addresses President Obama by name, are clearly made to draw America into the fight. An invasion would be a huge propaganda victory for jihadists worldwide: irrespective of whether they have given baya’a to the caliph, they all believe that the United States wants to embark on a modern-day Crusade and kill Muslims. Yet another invasion and occupation would confirm that suspicion, and bolster recruitment. Add the incompetence of our previous efforts as occupiers, and we have reason for reluctance. The rise of ISIS, after all, happened only because our previous occupation created space for Zarqawi and his followers. Who knows the consequences of another botched job?

Given everything we know about the Islamic State, continuing to slowly bleed it, through air strikes and proxy warfare, appears the best of bad military options. Neither the Kurds nor the Shia will ever subdue and control the whole Sunni heartland of Syria and Iraq—they are hated there, and have no appetite for such an adventure anyway. But they can keep the Islamic State from fulfilling its duty to expand. And with every month that it fails to expand, it resembles less the conquering state of the Prophet Muhammad than yet another Middle Eastern government failing to bring prosperity to its people.

The humanitarian cost of the Islamic State’s existence is high. But its threat to the United States is smaller than its all too frequent conflation with al-Qaeda would suggest. Al-Qaeda’s core is rare among jihadist groups for its focus on the “far enemy” (the West); most jihadist groups’ main concerns lie closer to home. That’s especially true of the Islamic State, precisely because of its ideology. It sees enemies everywhere around it, and while its leadership wishes ill on the United States, the application of Sharia in the caliphate and the expansion to contiguous lands are paramount. Baghdadi has said as much directly: in November he told his Saudi agents to “deal with the rafida first … then al-Sulul … before the crusaders and their bases.”

The foreign fighters (and their wives and children) have been traveling to the caliphate on one-way tickets: they want to live under true Sharia, and many want martyrdom. Doctrine, recall, requires believers to reside in the caliphate if it is at all possible for them to do so. One of the Islamic State’s less bloody videos shows a group of jihadists burning their French, British, and Australian passports. This would be an eccentric act for someone intending to return to blow himself up in line at the Louvre or to hold another chocolate shop hostage in Sydney.

A few “lone wolf” supporters of the Islamic State have attacked Western targets, and more attacks will come. But most of the attackers have been frustrated amateurs, unable to immigrate to the caliphate because of confiscated passports or other problems. Even if the Islamic State cheers these attacks—and it does in its propaganda—it hasn’t yet planned and financed one. (The Charlie Hebdo attack in Paris in January was principally an al‑Qaeda operation.) During his visit to Mosul in December, Jürgen Todenhöfer interviewed a portly German jihadist and asked whether any of his comrades had returned to Europe to carry out attacks. The jihadist seemed to regard returnees not as soldiers but as dropouts. “The fact is that the returnees from the Islamic State should repent from their return,” he said. “I hope they review their religion.”

Properly contained, the Islamic State is likely to be its own undoing. No country is its ally, and its ideology ensures that this will remain the case. The land it controls, while expansive, is mostly uninhabited and poor. As it stagnates or slowly shrinks, its claim that it is the engine of God’s will and the agent of apocalypse will weaken, and fewer believers will arrive. And as more reports of misery within it leak out, radical Islamist movements elsewhere will be discredited: No one has tried harder to implement strict Sharia by violence. This is what it looks like.

Even so, the death of the Islamic State is unlikely to be quick, and things could still go badly wrong: if the Islamic State obtained the allegiance of al‑Qaeda—increasing, in one swoop, the unity of its base—it could wax into a worse foe than we’ve yet seen. The rift between the Islamic State and al-Qaeda has, if anything, grown in the past few months; the December issue of Dabiq featured a long account of an al‑Qaeda defector who described his old group as corrupt and ineffectual, and Zawahiri as a distant and unfit leader. But we should watch carefully for a rapprochement.

Without a catastrophe such as this, however, or perhaps the threat of the Islamic State’s storming Erbil, a vast ground invasion would certainly make the situation worse.

V. Dissuasion

It would be facile, even exculpatory, to call the problem of the Islamic State “a problem with Islam.” The religion allows many interpretations, and Islamic State supporters are morally on the hook for the one they choose. And yet simply denouncing the Islamic State as un-Islamic can be counterproductive, especially if those who hear the message have read the holy texts and seen the endorsement of many of the caliphate’s practices written plainly within them.

Muslims can say that slavery is not legitimate now, and that crucifixion is wrong at this historical juncture. Many say precisely this. But they cannot condemn slavery or crucifixion outright without contradicting the Koran and the example of the Prophet. “The only principled ground that the Islamic State’s opponents could take is to say that certain core texts and traditional teachings of Islam are no longer valid,” Bernard Haykel says. That really would be an act of apostasy.

The Islamic State’s ideology exerts powerful sway over a certain subset of the population. Life’s hypocrisies and inconsistencies vanish in its face. Musa Cerantonio and the Salafis I met in London are unstumpable: no question I posed left them stuttering. They lectured me garrulously and, if one accepts their premises, convincingly. To call them un-Islamic appears, to me, to invite them into an argument that they would win. If they had been froth-spewing maniacs, I might be able to predict that their movement would burn out as the psychopaths detonated themselves or became drone-splats, one by one. But these men spoke with an academic precision that put me in mind of a good graduate seminar. I even enjoyed their company, and that frightened me as much as anything else.

Non-muslims cannot tell Muslims how to practice their religion properly. But Muslims have long since begun this debate within their own ranks. “You have to have standards,” Anjem Choudary told me. “Somebody could claim to be a Muslim, but if he believes in homosexuality or drinking alcohol, then he is not a Muslim. There is no such thing as a nonpracticing vegetarian.”

There is, however, another strand of Islam that offers a hard-line alternative to the Islamic State—just as uncompromising, but with opposite conclusions. This strand has proved appealing to many Muslims cursed or blessed with a psychological longing to see every jot and tittle of the holy texts implemented as they were in the earliest days of Islam. Islamic State supporters know how to react to Muslims who ignore parts of the Koran: with takfir and ridicule. But they also know that some other Muslims read the Koran as assiduously as they do, and pose a real ideological threat.

Baghdadi is Salafi. The term Salafi has been villainized, in part because authentic villains have ridden into battle waving the Salafi banner. But most Salafis are not jihadists, and most adhere to sects that reject the Islamic State. They are, as Haykel notes, committed to expanding Dar al-Islam, the land of Islam, even, perhaps, with the implementation of monstrous practices such as slavery and amputation—but at some future point. Their first priority is personal purification and religious observance, and they believe anything that thwarts those goals—such as causing war or unrest that would disrupt lives and prayer and scholarship—is forbidden.

They live among us. Last fall, I visited the Philadelphia mosque of Breton Pocius, 28, a Salafi imam who goes by the name Abdullah. His mosque is on the border between the crime-ridden Northern Liberties neighborhood and a gentrifying area that one might call Dar al-Hipster; his beard allows him to pass in the latter zone almost unnoticed.

Pocius converted 15 years ago after a Polish Catholic upbringing in Chicago. Like Cerantonio, he talks like an old soul, exhibiting deep familiarity with ancient texts, and a commitment to them motivated by curiosity and scholarship, and by a conviction that they are the only way to escape hellfire. When I met him at a local coffee shop, he carried a work of Koranic scholarship in Arabic and a book for teaching himself Japanese. He was preparing a sermon on the obligations of fatherhood for the 150 or so worshipers in his Friday congregation.

Pocius said his main goal is to encourage a halal life for worshipers in his mosque. But the rise of the Islamic State has forced him to consider political questions that are usually very far from the minds of Salafis. “Most of what they’ll say about how to pray and how to dress is exactly what I’ll say in my masjid . But when they get to questions about social upheaval, they sound like Che Guevara.”

When Baghdadi showed up, Pocius adopted the slogan “Not my khalifa.” “The times of the Prophet were a time of great bloodshed,” he told me, “and he knew that the worst possible condition for all people was chaos, especially within the umma .” Accordingly, Pocius said, the correct attitude for Salafis is not to sow discord by factionalizing and declaring fellow Muslims apostates.

Instead, Pocius—like a majority of Salafis—believes that Muslims should remove themselves from politics. These quietist Salafis, as they are known, agree with the Islamic State that God’s law is the only law, and they eschew practices like voting and the creation of political parties. But they interpret the Koran’s hatred of discord and chaos as requiring them to fall into line with just about any leader, including some manifestly sinful ones. “The Prophet said: as long as the ruler does not enter into clear kufr , give him general obedience,” Pocius told me, and the classic “books of creed” all warn against causing social upheaval. Quietist Salafis are strictly forbidden from dividing Muslims from one another—for example, by mass excommunication. Living without baya’a, Pocius said, does indeed make one ignorant, or benighted. But baya’a need not mean direct allegiance to a caliph, and certainly not to Abu Bakr al‑Baghdadi. It can mean, more broadly, allegiance to a religious social contract and commitment to a society of Muslims, whether ruled by a caliph or not.

Quietist Salafis believe that Muslims should direct their energies toward perfecting their personal life, including prayer, ritual, and hygiene. Much in the same way ultra-Orthodox Jews debate whether it’s kosher to tear off squares of toilet paper on the Sabbath (does that count as “rending cloth”?), they spend an inordinate amount of time ensuring that their trousers are not too long, that their beards are trimmed in some areas and shaggy in others. Through this fastidious observance, they believe, God will favor them with strength and numbers, and perhaps a caliphate will arise. At that moment, Muslims will take vengeance and, yes, achieve glorious victory at Dabiq. But Pocius cites a slew of modern Salafi theologians who argue that a caliphate cannot come into being in a righteous way except through the unmistakable will of God.

The Islamic State, of course, would agree, and say that God has anointed Baghdadi. Pocius’s retort amounts to a call to humility. He cites Abdullah Ibn Abbas, one of the Prophet’s companions, who sat down with dissenters and asked them how they had the gall, as a minority, to tell the majority that it was wrong. Dissent itself, to the point of bloodshed or splitting the umma, was forbidden. Even the manner of the establishment of Baghdadi’s caliphate runs contrary to expectation, he said. “The khilafa is something that Allah is going to establish,” he told me, “and it will involve a consensus of scholars from Mecca and Medina. That is not what happened. ISIS came out of nowhere.”

The Islamic State loathes this talk, and its fanboys tweet derisively about quietist Salafis. They mock them as “Salafis of menstruation,” for their obscure judgments about when women are and aren’t clean, and other low-priority aspects of life. “What we need now is fatwa about how it’s haram to ride a bike on Jupiter,” one tweeted drily. “That’s what scholars should focus on. More pressing than state of Ummah.” Anjem Choudary, for his part, says that no sin merits more vigorous opposition than the usurpation of God’s law, and that extremism in defense of monotheism is no vice.

Pocius doesn’t court any kind of official support from the United States, as a counterweight to jihadism. Indeed, official support would tend to discredit him, and in any case he is bitter toward America for treating him, in his words, as “less than a citizen.” (He alleges that the government paid spies to infiltrate his mosque and harassed his mother at work with questions about his being a potential terrorist.)

Still, his quietist Salafism offers an Islamic antidote to Baghdadi-style jihadism. The people who arrive at the faith spoiling for a fight cannot all be stopped from jihadism, but those whose main motivation is to find an ultraconservative, uncompromising version of Islam have an alternative here. It is not moderate Islam; most Muslims would consider it extreme. It is, however, a form of Islam that the literal-minded would not instantly find hypocritical, or blasphemously purged of its inconveniences. Hypocrisy is not a sin that ideologically minded young men tolerate well.

Western officials would probably do best to refrain from weighing in on matters of Islamic theological debate altogether. Barack Obama himself drifted into takfiri waters when he claimed that the Islamic State was “not Islamic”—the irony being that he, as the non-Muslim son of a Muslim, may himself be classified as an apostate, and yet is now practicing takfir against Muslims. Non-Muslims’ practicing takfir elicits chuckles from jihadists (“Like a pig covered in feces giving hygiene advice to others,” one tweeted).

I suspect that most Muslims appreciated Obama’s sentiment: the president was standing with them against both Baghdadi and non-Muslim chauvinists trying to implicate them in crimes. But most Muslims aren’t susceptible to joining jihad. The ones who are susceptible will only have had their suspicions confirmed: the United States lies about religion to serve its purposes.

Within the narrow bounds of its theology, the Islamic State hums with energy, even creativity. Outside those bounds, it could hardly be more arid and silent: a vision of life as obedience, order, and destiny. Musa Cerantonio and Anjem Cho

------------------------------------
2019 CABG Survivor

2016 OK Survivor Champion

be about it or be without it

RIP GOATs

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
they need a new name, nothing islamic about it
Feb 19th 2015
1
we only call them ISIS or ISIL in english
Feb 19th 2015
3
that is an acronym, not an arabic word
Feb 19th 2015
4
      ah ok cool thanks for that
Feb 19th 2015
7
           a derogatory term created by Western Media
Feb 19th 2015
8
                really,...
Feb 19th 2015
9
                     peep
Feb 19th 2015
10
It's strict, fundamentalist Islam
Feb 19th 2015
5
Not At All
Feb 19th 2015
6
      well TECHNICALLY
Feb 19th 2015
13
      RE: well TECHNICALLY
Feb 19th 2015
15
      lol... they've killed far more muslims than non-muslims, dude
Feb 20th 2015
68
      RE: Not At All
Feb 19th 2015
19
           you are just being rude
Feb 19th 2015
24
                no rudeness, just stating facts
Feb 20th 2015
46
                     kun fayah kun walayu deen
Feb 20th 2015
57
RE: they need a new name, nothing islamic about it
Feb 19th 2015
17
RE: they need a new name, nothing islamic about it
Feb 19th 2015
25
      RE: they need a new name, nothing islamic about it
Feb 20th 2015
53
           RE: they need a new name, nothing islamic about it
Feb 20th 2015
63
CIA was already taken
Feb 19th 2015
20
People say that - but Sharia/blasphemy laws are Islamic
Feb 19th 2015
32
      RE: People say that - but Sharia/blasphemy laws are Islamic
Feb 19th 2015
33
you cant out kill motherfuckers who are willing & want to die.
Feb 19th 2015
2
RE: you cant out kill motherfuckers who are willing & want to die.
Feb 19th 2015
16
To do the bidding of their creators (CIA/MI6)
Feb 19th 2015
11
^^^this^^^
Feb 19th 2015
12
stamped
Feb 19th 2015
14
Proof?
Feb 19th 2015
38
Y'all got to be the dumbest and or laziest
Feb 20th 2015
41
      so you make an unsubstantiated claim and its on *us* to confirm?
Feb 20th 2015
67
           Blah blah blah its been substantiated
Feb 20th 2015
74
                LOL...bless your heart
Feb 21st 2015
78
                this is just as lazy
Feb 22nd 2015
107
                     Naw y'all just late
Feb 22nd 2015
130
                          yea that's deep.
Feb 23rd 2015
144
RE: To do the bidding of their creators (CIA/MI6)
Feb 22nd 2015
99
      You probably believe Brian Williams
Feb 22nd 2015
106
           https://markosun.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/geek2.jpg
Feb 22nd 2015
113
Under the Banner of Heaven is a great book about millenarianism
Feb 19th 2015
18
This was a fascinating read. Not a comfortable one too.
Feb 19th 2015
21
well that's the "extreme" in extremist islam
Feb 19th 2015
22
RE: well that's the "extreme" in extremist islam
Feb 19th 2015
27
      "Mohammed is God's apostle.
Feb 20th 2015
55
RE: This was a fascinating read. Not a comfortable one too.
Feb 19th 2015
34
      the Klu Klux Klan of Islam
Feb 19th 2015
35
           they are basically the westboro baptist church
Feb 21st 2015
87
how would you interpret "Smite the neck of unbelievers"
Feb 19th 2015
23
I would look in what context it was said
Feb 19th 2015
26
Your patience with these OKP-fools is impressive to say the least.
Feb 19th 2015
28
its been a while, i'm an old head now
Feb 19th 2015
29
      I'm good brother, headed to Berlin soon. How are you?
Feb 20th 2015
42
           headed back to Cali
Feb 20th 2015
43
RE: I would look in what context it was said
Feb 19th 2015
30
      False flag or not, these groups are successfully recruiting real muslims...
Feb 19th 2015
31
      RE: False flag or not, these groups are successfully recruiting real mus...
Feb 19th 2015
40
      RE: I would look in what context it was said
Feb 19th 2015
36
RE: how would you interpret "Smite the neck of unbelievers"
Feb 19th 2015
37
      Fam, did you read the article?
Feb 19th 2015
39
           RE: Fam, did you read the article?
Feb 20th 2015
48
Anderson Cooper last night
Feb 20th 2015
44
What was your point with the video?
Feb 20th 2015
45
      just sharing a video homie
Feb 20th 2015
52
I greatly appreciated this, thanks for posting
Feb 20th 2015
47
RE: I greatly appreciated this, thanks for posting
Feb 20th 2015
49
well that apocalypse part is already here
Feb 20th 2015
60
RE: well that apocalypse part is already here
Feb 20th 2015
64
RE: I greatly appreciated this, thanks for posting
Feb 20th 2015
61
After reading, it seems they're the muslim equivalent of more catholic
Feb 20th 2015
50
General Wesley Clark: ISIS Got Started Through Funding From Our Friends ...
Feb 20th 2015
51
this article seems to make some statements that aren't as solid
Feb 20th 2015
54
RE: this article seems to make some statements that aren't as solid
Feb 20th 2015
56
      click the link dude
Feb 20th 2015
59
           haters gonna hate
Feb 20th 2015
62
           RE: click the link dude
Feb 20th 2015
66
All of these opinions on what Islam is but
Feb 20th 2015
58
this part:
Feb 20th 2015
65
this is what muslim apologists do
Feb 20th 2015
69
      you'dont have the knowledge or authority to label me
Feb 20th 2015
73
           i know that you worship the same god
Feb 21st 2015
76
                the religion of CIA and Mossad operatives?
Feb 22nd 2015
91
                     allah's the head of the CIA?!!
Feb 22nd 2015
92
                          its called a False Flag Operation
Feb 23rd 2015
136
what an intellectually dishonest and offensive
Feb 20th 2015
70
another pointless article from an islam apologist
Feb 20th 2015
71
      RE: another pointless article from an islam apologist
Feb 20th 2015
72
      nah, it's just a poorly written article
Feb 24th 2015
146
           ...by a guy called Murtaza Hussain
Feb 24th 2015
150
Non-Muslims defining what is or isn't true Islam. Lol
Feb 21st 2015
75
Malcolm X said it best
Feb 22nd 2015
90
The responses here further prove religion is a crock of shit
Feb 21st 2015
77
Well, yeah...
Feb 21st 2015
79
      This is pretty much where I'm at.
Feb 21st 2015
80
      RE: Well, yeah...
Feb 21st 2015
81
           So no religion = no ISIS ??
Feb 21st 2015
82
                RE: So no religion = no ISIS ??
Feb 21st 2015
83
                the religion not the people(individuals)?
Feb 21st 2015
84
                     ?
Feb 21st 2015
85
                          Well you're blaming religion whereas I blame the people
Feb 21st 2015
86
                               RE: Well you're blaming religion whereas I blame the people
Feb 21st 2015
88
                                    exactly
Feb 21st 2015
89
                                    that's like blaming the constitution for political extremist
Feb 22nd 2015
96
                                         no it's not
Feb 22nd 2015
98
                                              when did I say political extremist cut off heads?
Feb 22nd 2015
105
                                    I believe man is to blame...
Feb 22nd 2015
94
                                         well, yeah...
Feb 22nd 2015
97
                                              if you believe man created religion... game, set, match.
Feb 22nd 2015
102
                                                   ????
Feb 22nd 2015
103
                                                        you are saying Islam is partly responsible for ISIS or nah?
Feb 22nd 2015
104
                                                             islam is to blame, yes
Feb 22nd 2015
114
                                                                  and yet, 99% of muslims are peaceful...
Feb 22nd 2015
118
                                                                       #81
Feb 22nd 2015
125
                                                                            100% wrong bruh...
Feb 22nd 2015
127
                if your examples are from 800 years ago...
Feb 22nd 2015
93
                     lol, that's what i thought
Feb 22nd 2015
95
                     you guys are really trying to convince us man wouldn't kill
Feb 22nd 2015
100
                     slow down there, player
Feb 22nd 2015
101
                     Religious leaders plotted to kill Jesus so no-- not really
Feb 22nd 2015
111
                     Do you not see humans that are still as barbaric as 800 years ago?
Feb 22nd 2015
110
                          RE: Do you not see humans that are still as barbaric as 800 years ago?
Feb 22nd 2015
115
                          Cool-- didn't know you were speaking for Cog now.
Feb 22nd 2015
119
                               *nods towards the bench*
Feb 22nd 2015
121
                          its not that
Feb 22nd 2015
120
                               Sheeeeit
Feb 22nd 2015
122
ISIS is a creation of USA, Israel and UK (links)
Feb 22nd 2015
108
RE: ISIS is a creation of USA, Israel and UK (links)
Feb 22nd 2015
109
the article about there being rumours in iraq mentions it
Feb 22nd 2015
117
They don't hear you though
Feb 22nd 2015
112
The only evidence you have to support your claim...
Feb 22nd 2015
116
      no CIA does jacked up shit post?
Feb 22nd 2015
123
           look man...
Feb 22nd 2015
124
                RE: look man...
Feb 22nd 2015
126
                are you three the same person or something?
Feb 22nd 2015
128
                     That's why they are called conspiracies
Feb 22nd 2015
131
                          ok, now i know you're all the same person
Feb 23rd 2015
132
                               you all disagree with me so you must be the same person...lol
Feb 23rd 2015
137
                I'm just saying where there is smoke there is fire
Feb 24th 2015
148
The religion angle doesn't make it worse for me.
Feb 22nd 2015
129
RE: The religion angle doesn't make it worse for me.
Feb 23rd 2015
133
all this power yet they haven't moved on Israel?
Feb 23rd 2015
134
something doesn't smell right about this...
Feb 23rd 2015
135
just a question...
Feb 23rd 2015
138
Is this a serious question?
Feb 23rd 2015
139
See how easy it is to subtract the bullish
Feb 23rd 2015
140
lol
Feb 23rd 2015
141
What for? The article states clearly what their aims are.
Feb 23rd 2015
142
      Yup.
Feb 23rd 2015
145
      it states its version of what their aims are
Feb 24th 2015
147
IARAOT
Feb 23rd 2015
143
anybody notice...
Feb 24th 2015
149

AbdulJaleel
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Thu Feb-19-15 01:58 PM

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1. "they need a new name, nothing islamic about it"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

"The reality is that the Islamic State is Islamic. Very Islamic. Yes, it has attracted psychopaths and adventure seekers, drawn largely from the disaffected populations of the Middle East and Europe. But the religion preached by its most ardent followers derives from coherent and even learned interpretations of Islam."

I still feel its a false flag op but I a sure I am seen as biased.

www.instagram.com/schemeofthings

  

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GriftyMcgrift
Member since May 22nd 2002
20414 posts
Thu Feb-19-15 02:14 PM

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3. "we only call them ISIS or ISIL in english"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

they are daesh or something in arabic

  

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AbdulJaleel
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Thu Feb-19-15 02:19 PM

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4. "that is an acronym, not an arabic word"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

د = Dawlat (Nation)
ا = (al-) Islāmiyya
ع= (fī’l-) ‘Irāq
ش = (wa’s-) Shām (Greater Syria or the Levant)

www.instagram.com/schemeofthings

  

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GriftyMcgrift
Member since May 22nd 2002
20414 posts
Thu Feb-19-15 02:34 PM

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7. "ah ok cool thanks for that"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

wasnt sure on where that came from

  

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AbdulJaleel
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Thu Feb-19-15 02:36 PM

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8. "a derogatory term created by Western Media"
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

pretty much

www.instagram.com/schemeofthings

  

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GriftyMcgrift
Member since May 22nd 2002
20414 posts
Thu Feb-19-15 02:54 PM

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9. "really,..."
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

i feel like i had only read that in context of referring to themselves. I guess it was just arabic people referring to them(not necessarily friendly to isis)

thanks for the clarification!

  

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AbdulJaleel
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Thu Feb-19-15 02:56 PM

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10. "peep"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

https://pietervanostaeyen.wordpress.com/2014/02/18/on-the-origin-of-the-name-daesh-the-islamic-state-in-iraq-and-as-sham/

www.instagram.com/schemeofthings

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
15894 posts
Thu Feb-19-15 02:21 PM

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5. "It's strict, fundamentalist Islam"
In response to Reply # 1
Thu Feb-19-15 02:24 PM by PimpTrickGangstaClik

          

If the following the Qur'an very literally, with all it's medieval glory. It seems like like reject any attempts at interpreting and contextualizing anything in the Qur'an.
I don't know how you could call them anything but Islamic.

They are not following modern interpretations of Islam. And their beliefs and actions are at odds with a large majority of practicing Muslims in the world today.
But they are Muslims nonetheless.

You wouldn't call someone who is a Bible literalist (i.e Earth is 6000 years old, believes Jonah and the Whale really happened, etc.) not a Christian, would you?


_______________________________________

  

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AbdulJaleel
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Thu Feb-19-15 02:31 PM

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6. "Not At All"
In response to Reply # 5
Thu Feb-19-15 02:35 PM by AbdulJaleel

  

          

>If the following the Qur'an very literally, with all it's
>medieval glory. It seems like like reject any attempts at
>interpreting and contextualizing anything in the Qur'an.


-No where in the Qur'an does it sanction the killing of non-combatant civilians by beheading or any other means.


>I don't know how you could call them anything but Islamic.

- Easy, I am Musim and I know the tenants of my faith.

>They are not following modern interpretations of Islam. And
>their beliefs and actions are at odds with a large majority of
>practicing Muslims in the world today.

- During the time of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and his Companions did they ever act a fool like these dudes.

>But they are Muslims nonetheless.

- That is debatable, I think they are the Israeli Secret Intelligence Service but hey, we are gonna differ.

>You wouldn't call someone who is a Bible literalist (i.e Earth
>is 6000 years old, believes Jonah and the Whale really
>happened, etc.) not a Christian, would you?

- Actions determine what you are, not the labels the media and deviant place on you. Please show me in the Qur'an where it says to behead Muslims?

www.instagram.com/schemeofthings

  

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Binlahab
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Thu Feb-19-15 03:06 PM

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13. "well TECHNICALLY"
In response to Reply # 6


  

          


>- Actions determine what you are, not the labels the media and
>deviant place on you. Please show me in the Qur'an where it
>says to behead Muslims?

they arent beheading muslims...now are they? they beheading everyone who is NOT a muslim. so...yeah. if we you know...gonna get technical.



does it really matter?

wonder what bin's doing?
http://i.imgur.com/phECCMp.jpg

  

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AbdulJaleel
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Thu Feb-19-15 03:09 PM

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15. "RE: well TECHNICALLY"
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

since you want to go there:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4d3_1396222259

www.instagram.com/schemeofthings

  

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pelicanz
Member since Jul 07th 2005
5028 posts
Fri Feb-20-15 02:33 PM

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68. "lol... they've killed far more muslims than non-muslims, dude"
In response to Reply # 13
Fri Feb-20-15 02:42 PM by pelicanz

  

          

it would be in bad taste to compare, but the muslim death-toll is clearly disproportionate.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/10/07/isis-s-gruesome-muslim-death-toll.html

  

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Tommy-B
Member since Mar 03rd 2013
524 posts
Thu Feb-19-15 04:43 PM

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19. "RE: Not At All"
In response to Reply # 6
Thu Feb-19-15 04:46 PM by Tommy-B

  

          

>
>-No where in the Qur'an does it sanction the killing of
>non-combatant civilians by beheading or any other means.
>

yes it does.

>
>- During the time of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)
>and his Companions did they ever act a fool like these dudes.
>

yes. muhammad slaughtered many people and was a paedophile

>
>- That is debatable, I think they are the Israeli Secret
>Intelligence Service but hey, we are gonna differ.
>

lol. say that to one of their faces and they'd behead you on the spot, muslim or no muslim.

in fact, they wouldn't consider you muslim at all, as you have been corrupted by western ideals

If you're innocent, be cool.
Only the guilty's catchin' offence.

  

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AbdulJaleel
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Thu Feb-19-15 05:50 PM

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24. "you are just being rude"
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

>>
>>-No where in the Qur'an does it sanction the killing of
>>non-combatant civilians by beheading or any other means.
>>
>
>yes it does.

- provide proof please


>>- During the time of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon
>him)
>>and his Companions did they ever act a fool like these
>dudes.
>>
>
>yes. muhammad slaughtered many people and was a paedophile

- provide your proof that the Prophet Muhammad slaughtered people. Your other accusation has nothing to do with my point.

>>- That is debatable, I think they are the Israeli Secret
>>Intelligence Service but hey, we are gonna differ.


>lol. say that to one of their faces and they'd behead you on
>the spot, muslim or no muslim.

- perhaps, but no Muslim I know would agree to beheading another muslim.

>in fact, they wouldn't consider you muslim at all, as you have
>been corrupted by western ideals
>

- you know them very well it seems, whats your source Fox News?

www.instagram.com/schemeofthings

  

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Tommy-B
Member since Mar 03rd 2013
524 posts
Fri Feb-20-15 09:52 AM

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46. "no rudeness, just stating facts"
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

the koran is littered with violent verses aimed at many people - from unbelievers to gays to flirty women. i'm not gonna highlight every verse that promotes such things, because you already know about them, hence why you're using selective words when asking for "proof."

the prophet muhammad - if he actually existed - was an illiterate, violent, paedophile warlord who enslaved and massacred hundreds of people. again, no lies here. the only "proof" i can provide of this are any of the hundred verses in the koran or hadith which detail his brutal battles and pillages as well as his barbaric instructions to other muslims.

(if you want to see the actual verses look here: http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/ten_reasons.htm or here: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm)

again, i understand that you have a lot invested in your religion and you will do all you can to deflect any criticism of it, but there is simply no denying what i am saying. the koran and hadith directly promote and encourage violence to infidels, and as long as some people vehemently believe this there will always be groups like isis

If you're innocent, be cool.
Only the guilty's catchin' offence.

  

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AbdulJaleel
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Fri Feb-20-15 01:21 PM

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57. "kun fayah kun walayu deen"
In response to Reply # 46


  

          

>the koran is littered with violent verses aimed at many
>people - from unbelievers to gays to flirty women. i'm not
>gonna highlight every verse that promotes such things, because
>you already know about them, hence why you're using selective
>words when asking for "proof."

- whatever make you feel better about yourself


>the prophet muhammad - if he actually existed - was an
>illiterate, violent, paedophile warlord who enslaved and
>massacred hundreds of people. again, no lies here. the only
>"proof" i can provide of this are any of the hundred verses in
>the koran or hadith which detail his brutal battles and
>pillages as well as his barbaric instructions to other
>muslims.

- Hundreds? I bet you can't find three instances. For you to have so much hatred towards a man who never existed in your eyes is mind boggling.


>(if you want to see the actual verses look here:
>http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/ten_reasons.htm
>or here:
>http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm)
>

- James M Anderson? Are you for real?

>again, i understand that you have a lot invested in your
>religion and you will do all you can to deflect any criticism
>of it, but there is simply no denying what i am saying. the
>koran and hadith directly promote and encourage violence to
>infidels, and as long as some people vehemently believe this
>there will always be groups like isis

- From a man who doesn't even know if the Prophet Muhammad existed using well documented Islamophobe as reference, all I can do is deny you.

you are welcome to your opinion, but if you really want to know about Islam read the Qur'an for yourself.

www.instagram.com/schemeofthings

  

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Tommy-B
Member since Mar 03rd 2013
524 posts
Thu Feb-19-15 04:29 PM

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17. "RE: they need a new name, nothing islamic about it"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          


>
>I still feel its a false flag op but I a sure I am seen as
>biased.

yeah you are seen as biased because you are being biased, lol.

i appreciate that as a muslim this topic means more to you than simply losing an argument, but you couldn't be more wrong in this case. isis are directly following the teachings of the koran and the hadith and all of their followers quote directly from islamic scriptures.

they are looking to establish one state - an islamic one - and to rule it with sharia. all infidels who oppose this must be killed - as is stated in islam's fundamental texts.

there's simply no denying that islamic state are islamic. the article completely blows that argument out of the water, but you obviously didn't read it because you want to believe that your religion is one of peace

If you're innocent, be cool.
Only the guilty's catchin' offence.

  

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AbdulJaleel
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Thu Feb-19-15 05:59 PM

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25. "RE: they need a new name, nothing islamic about it"
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

>
>>
>>I still feel its a false flag op but I a sure I am seen as
>>biased.
>
>yeah you are seen as biased because you are being biased, lol.
>

- and you are being a troll, whats your agenda following me around?


>i appreciate that as a muslim this topic means more to you
>than simply losing an argument, but you couldn't be more wrong
>in this case. isis are directly following the teachings of the
>koran and the hadith and all of their followers quote directly
>from islamic scriptures.

- what argument is there to loose? ISIS is not following any teachings from Qur'an or Hadith and you have no proof of this.

>they are looking to establish one state - an islamic one - and
>to rule it with sharia. all infidels who oppose this must be
>killed - as is stated in islam's fundamental texts.

- where in sharia law does it sanction the murder of civilians?

>there's simply no denying that islamic state are islamic. the
>article completely blows that argument out of the water, but
>you obviously didn't read it because you want to believe that
>your religion is one of peace

- its just like any other religion. you got Buddhist and Christians and Athiest killing in the name of their warped sense of belief as well. Its easy to take this stance over the internet but do you even know a Muslim in real life to ask them what they believe or has your myopic view with the internet made you an expert on what over one sixth of the planet believes?

www.instagram.com/schemeofthings

  

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Tommy-B
Member since Mar 03rd 2013
524 posts
Fri Feb-20-15 01:06 PM

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53. "RE: they need a new name, nothing islamic about it"
In response to Reply # 25
Fri Feb-20-15 01:07 PM by Tommy-B

  

          

my 'agenda' is to let people know that isis are - despite what many people say - a radical islamic organisation that takes its instruction directly from the sacred texts of islam: the koran and hadith. they could not be more clear about this.

you just don't want to believe that this is the case, which i completely understand. but there's only so long you can hide the ball before people start to see what's really going on

If you're innocent, be cool.
Only the guilty's catchin' offence.

  

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AbdulJaleel
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Fri Feb-20-15 01:39 PM

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63. "RE: they need a new name, nothing islamic about it"
In response to Reply # 53


  

          

>my 'agenda' is to let people know that isis are - despite
>what many people say - a radical islamic organisation that
>takes its instruction directly from the sacred texts of islam:
>the koran and hadith. they could not be more clear about this.

- you said a lot more than that using known islamophobes to back your stance.

>you just don't want to believe that this is the case, which i
>completely understand. but there's only so long you can hide
>the ball before people start to see what's really going on

- sincerity is not what you say, but how you say it. You have a problem with Islam and you are blaming it on ISIS.

www.instagram.com/schemeofthings

  

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Atillah Moor
Member since Sep 05th 2013
13825 posts
Thu Feb-19-15 04:54 PM

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20. "CIA was already taken"
In response to Reply # 1
Thu Feb-19-15 04:55 PM by Atillah Moor

  

          

also tl;dr ??

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

  

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Vex_id
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Thu Feb-19-15 07:36 PM

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32. "People say that - but Sharia/blasphemy laws are Islamic"
In response to Reply # 1


          

And a (slight) majority of muslims in the middle east support executing
woman for having sex before marriage (or ex-marital sex).

Also, Muhammad forcibly had sex w/ teen (and even pre-teen) women and
did advocate violence in certain situations - so while it's absolutely imperative
to echo the President's well-articulated stance explaining that we aren't at war with
Islam (absurd that it even has to be said) - let's not act like Islamic nations (culturally and
societally) don't need to progress and advance into the modern world as it pertains to universal human rights.

>"The reality is that the Islamic State is Islamic. Very
>Islamic. Yes, it has attracted psychopaths and adventure
>seekers, drawn largely from the disaffected populations of the
>Middle East and Europe. But the religion preached by its most
>ardent followers derives from coherent and even learned
>interpretations of Islam."
>
>I still feel its a false flag op but I a sure I am seen as
>biased.

I think that absolutely needs to be continually investigated. There's a lot going on
behind the scenes that of course the general public isn't privy to.


-->

  

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AbdulJaleel
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Thu Feb-19-15 07:54 PM

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33. "RE: People say that - but Sharia/blasphemy laws are Islamic"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

>And a (slight) majority of muslims in the middle east support
>executing
>woman for having sex before marriage (or ex-marital sex).

- The "Middle East" is a minority when it comes to Islam on a global scale.

>Also, Muhammad forcibly had sex w/ teen (and even pre-teen)
>women and
>did advocate violence in certain situations

- please provide your proof he forced women into sex. Violence was advocated in battle, not against non-combatants.

>so while it's
>absolutely imperative
>to echo the President's well-articulated stance explaining
>that we aren't at war with
>Islam (absurd that it even has to be said) - let's not act
>like Islamic nations (culturally and
>societally) don't need to progress and advance into the modern
>world as it pertains to universal human rights.

- but so do Christians (D.R.C.) and Buddhists (Burma), so lets not single one group of people.

>>"The reality is that the Islamic State is Islamic. Very
>>Islamic. Yes, it has attracted psychopaths and adventure
>>seekers, drawn largely from the disaffected populations of
>the
>>Middle East and Europe.

- its is a minority and the are more Muslims against it than for it.

But the religion preached by its
>most
>>ardent followers derives from coherent and even learned
>>interpretations of Islam."

- and that "interpretation" is not based of the Ulema (scholars) so anything can be misinterpreted.

>>I still feel its a false flag op but I a sure I am seen as
>>biased.
>
>I think that absolutely needs to be continually investigated.
>There's a lot going on
>behind the scenes that of course the general public isn't
>privy to.

- agreed. Its weird how they control the flow of oil to Israel yet have not shut down production? You would think that would be their main objective, not terrorizing innocent Muslims?

Like Boko Haram, something doesn't add up.

www.instagram.com/schemeofthings

  

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Binlahab
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Thu Feb-19-15 02:02 PM

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2. "you cant out kill motherfuckers who are willing & want to die."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

that will literally never work

but it wont keep us from doing it over and over and over

tl;dr


does it really matter?

wonder what bin's doing?
http://i.imgur.com/phECCMp.jpg

  

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Tommy-B
Member since Mar 03rd 2013
524 posts
Thu Feb-19-15 04:17 PM

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16. "RE: you cant out kill motherfuckers who are willing & want to die."
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

so what would you suggest?

personally, i'm with this quote from the article: "Given everything we know about the Islamic State, continuing to slowly bleed it appears the best of bad military options."

it's not ideal, but sometimes the only way to win is to fight fire with more fire.

If you're innocent, be cool.
Only the guilty's catchin' offence.

  

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Musa
Member since Mar 08th 2006
15789 posts
Thu Feb-19-15 03:00 PM

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11. "To do the bidding of their creators (CIA/MI6)"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

.

<----

Soundcloud.com/aquil84

(HIP HOP)
http://aquil.bandcamp.com

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
79601 posts
Thu Feb-19-15 03:02 PM

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12. "^^^this^^^"
In response to Reply # 11


          

it gets Americans riled up enough to fund another endless war.

  

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AbdulJaleel
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14. "stamped"
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

www.instagram.com/schemeofthings

  

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SeV
Charter member
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Thu Feb-19-15 09:04 PM

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38. "Proof?"
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

Since we all about fact checking in this post


but im banned tho.
____________

Dallas Cavericks LETS GO!!

  

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Musa
Member since Mar 08th 2006
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Fri Feb-20-15 02:54 AM

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41. "Y'all got to be the dumbest and or laziest "
In response to Reply # 38


  

          

Sons of bitches on the planet. Look it up Google, bing, yahoo hell duckduckgo is your friend.

<----

Soundcloud.com/aquil84

(HIP HOP)
http://aquil.bandcamp.com

  

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cgonz00cc
Member since Aug 01st 2002
35256 posts
Fri Feb-20-15 01:52 PM

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67. "so you make an unsubstantiated claim and its on *us* to confirm?"
In response to Reply # 41


  

          

Lol

  

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Musa
Member since Mar 08th 2006
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Fri Feb-20-15 09:21 PM

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74. "Blah blah blah its been substantiated "
In response to Reply # 67


  

          

stop being lazy arguing lames and do your research.

<----

Soundcloud.com/aquil84

(HIP HOP)
http://aquil.bandcamp.com

  

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Stringer Bell
Member since Mar 15th 2004
3175 posts
Sat Feb-21-15 11:04 AM

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78. "LOL...bless your heart"
In response to Reply # 74


          

.

  

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Vex_id
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107. "this is just as lazy"
In response to Reply # 74


          

>stop being lazy arguing lames and do your research.

You don't have to necessarily go on cite-a-thon and post links, but you
should at least be able to explain how/why you came to that conclusion.

I'm actually readily investigating it myself and think that there's *way* more
at play w/ this situation than is what's being reported (which is no surprise
to many) - but to make such a claim, there needs to at least be an articulable
reason for it.

-->

  

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Musa
Member since Mar 08th 2006
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Sun Feb-22-15 08:40 PM

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130. "Naw y'all just late"
In response to Reply # 107


  

          

and white as usual.

<----

Soundcloud.com/aquil84

(HIP HOP)
http://aquil.bandcamp.com

  

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Vex_id
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144. "yea that's deep. "
In response to Reply # 130


          


-->

  

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Tommy-B
Member since Mar 03rd 2013
524 posts
Sun Feb-22-15 11:24 AM

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99. "RE: To do the bidding of their creators (CIA/MI6)"
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

http://levraigabroy.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/37138501.jpg

If you're innocent, be cool.
Only the guilty's catchin' offence.

  

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Musa
Member since Mar 08th 2006
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Sun Feb-22-15 01:34 PM

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106. "You probably believe Brian Williams"
In response to Reply # 99


  

          

had his helicopter shot down.

<----

Soundcloud.com/aquil84

(HIP HOP)
http://aquil.bandcamp.com

  

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Tommy-B
Member since Mar 03rd 2013
524 posts
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113. "https://markosun.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/geek2.jpg"
In response to Reply # 106


  

          

https://markosun.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/geek2.jpg

If you're innocent, be cool.
Only the guilty's catchin' offence.

  

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cgonz00cc
Member since Aug 01st 2002
35256 posts
Thu Feb-19-15 04:38 PM

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18. "Under the Banner of Heaven is a great book about millenarianism"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

The specific narrative is about American Mormons and not Muslims, but the theme of the book is the relationship between millenarianism and extreme violence

  

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kwez
Member since Aug 10th 2003
11776 posts
Thu Feb-19-15 05:09 PM

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21. "This was a fascinating read. Not a comfortable one too."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I especially like the fact that the author makes it unambiguously clear that ISIS is apologetically practicing Islam exactly as it was meant to be carried out according to the texts.

That's pretty crazy. Would love to hear practicing Muslims counter this.

  

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southphillyman
Member since Oct 22nd 2003
90059 posts
Thu Feb-19-15 05:17 PM

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22. "well that's the "extreme" in extremist islam"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

> ISIS is apologetically practicing
>Islam exactly as it was meant to be carried out according to
>the texts.
>

the new thing is pretending that islam doesn't explicitly endorse the killing of it's "enemies"
at least Christianity came with the sequel in the new testament and cleaned some of the dumb shit up

Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:2

O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 3

~~~~~~

  

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AbdulJaleel
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Thu Feb-19-15 06:13 PM

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27. "RE: well that's the &amp;quot;extreme&amp;quot; in extremist islam"
In response to Reply # 22
Thu Feb-19-15 06:21 PM by AbdulJaleel

  

          

>> ISIS is apologetically practicing
>>Islam exactly as it was meant to be carried out according to
>>the texts.
>>
>
>the new thing is pretending that islam doesn't explicitly
>endorse the killing of it's "enemies"
>at least Christianity came with the sequel in the new
>testament and cleaned some of the dumb shit up

- Enemies in battle, not innocent people.

>Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's
>religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them
>until there is no persecution and the religion is God's
>entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39

- http://www.aboutjihad.com/terrorism/quran_misquote_part_2.php

- Surah 2:194 The prohibited month for the prohibited month,- and so for all things prohibited,- there is the law of equality. If then any one transgresses the prohibition against you, Transgress ye likewise against him. But fear Allah, and know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves.

- Surah 8:37 Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them).

Unbelievers as in the pagans who waged war on the Muslims.

>O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are
>friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends
>is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

- based off the comments in this post you don't see why?

>Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor
>what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor
>acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of
>the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. -
>9:2

- https://norasensation.wordpress.com/2008/10/16/misquoted-violent-verses-in-the-holy-quran/

>O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be
>harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless
>journey's end. - 9: 73

- 9: 74 They swear by Allah that they said nothing (evil), but indeed they uttered blasphemy, and they did it after accepting Islam; and they meditated a plot which they were unable to carry out: this revenge of theirs was (their) only return for the bounty with which Allah and His Messenger had enriched them! If they repent, it will be best for them; but if they turn back (to their evil ways), Allah will punish them with a grievous penalty in this life and in the Hereafter: They shall have none on earth to protect or help them.

www.instagram.com/schemeofthings

  

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Tommy-B
Member since Mar 03rd 2013
524 posts
Fri Feb-20-15 01:10 PM

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55. ""Mohammed is God's apostle."
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

Those who follow him are harsh
to the unbelievers but merciful to one another"
- Quran 48:29

If you're innocent, be cool.
Only the guilty's catchin' offence.

  

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pelicanz
Member since Jul 07th 2005
5028 posts
Thu Feb-19-15 07:59 PM

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34. "RE: This was a fascinating read. Not a comfortable one too."
In response to Reply # 21
Thu Feb-19-15 08:26 PM by pelicanz

  

          

>I especially like the fact that the author makes it
>unambiguously clear that ISIS is apologetically practicing
>Islam exactly as it was meant to be carried out according to
>the texts.

That's like Timothy McVeigh, or the Klan claiming their versions of Christianity to be correct.

  

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AbdulJaleel
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Thu Feb-19-15 08:05 PM

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35. "the Klu Klux Klan of Islam"
In response to Reply # 34


  

          

www.instagram.com/schemeofthings

  

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GriftyMcgrift
Member since May 22nd 2002
20414 posts
Sat Feb-21-15 04:09 PM

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87. "they are basically the westboro baptist church"
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

just even better funded and motivated

  

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dafriquan
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Thu Feb-19-15 05:37 PM

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23. "how would you interpret "Smite the neck of unbelievers""
In response to Reply # 0
Thu Feb-19-15 05:38 PM by dafriquan

  

          

A)Say a quick prayer and cut their head off
B)Give them a close shave with a good razor
Maybe somebody should try selling ISIS on the second one.

On a serious note, I have never been sold on the idea that ISIS/Boko Haram/Al Qaeda was unislamic. A different denomination? Maybe. Extreme? Oh no doubt. A tad too literal? Most Definitely. But rest assured in their minds they are the most muslim of all the muslims and they work pretty hard at keeping it to close to "the roots".

  

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AbdulJaleel
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Thu Feb-19-15 06:03 PM

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26. "I would look in what context it was said"
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

this sums it up pretty nicely

http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/surah8_12.htm

www.instagram.com/schemeofthings

  

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isaaaa
Member since May 10th 2007
30565 posts
Thu Feb-19-15 06:21 PM

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28. "Your patience with these OKP-fools is impressive to say the least."
In response to Reply # 26


          


Anti-gentrification, cheap alcohol & trying to look pretty in our twilight posting years (c) Big Reg


Get 25% off www.karmaloop.com w/ rep code JR9103 |
Nike, G-Star, Herschel, Adidas (Men's & Women's clothing)

  

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AbdulJaleel
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Thu Feb-19-15 06:22 PM

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29. "its been a while, i'm an old head now"
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

how you been Jay?

www.instagram.com/schemeofthings

  

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isaaaa
Member since May 10th 2007
30565 posts
Fri Feb-20-15 03:07 AM

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42. "I'm good brother, headed to Berlin soon. How are you?"
In response to Reply # 29


          


Anti-gentrification, cheap alcohol & trying to look pretty in our twilight posting years (c) Big Reg


Get 25% off www.karmaloop.com w/ rep code JR9103 |
Nike, G-Star, Herschel, Adidas (Men's & Women's clothing)

  

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AbdulJaleel
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Fri Feb-20-15 07:45 AM

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43. "headed back to Cali"
In response to Reply # 42


  

          

I'm in love with Pacifica / San Bruno

www.instagram.com/schemeofthings

  

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dafriquan
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Thu Feb-19-15 07:08 PM

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30. "RE: I would look in what context it was said"
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

>this sums it up pretty nicely
>
>http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/surah8_12.htm

You don't have to convince me.
I was not being serious just demonstrating that the idea to behead people while not in line with most islamic teachings, is still based on an interpretation of the koran. Albeit a MISinterpretation .

False flag or not, these groups are successfully recruiting real muslims.
And they turn to it in a misguided attempt to become more "devout" not less.
That's the uncomfortable part about all religious extremism that people tend to dance around.

  

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AbdulJaleel
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Thu Feb-19-15 07:12 PM

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31. "False flag or not, these groups are successfully recruiting real muslims..."
In response to Reply # 30


  

          

>>this sums it up pretty nicely
>>
>>http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/surah8_12.htm
>
>You don't have to convince me.
>I was not being serious just demonstrating that the idea to
>behead people while not in line with most islamic teachings,
>is still based on an interpretation of the koran. Albeit a
>MISinterpretation .
>
>False flag or not, these groups are successfully recruiting
>real muslims.
>And they turn to it in a misguided attempt to become more
>"devout" not less.
>That's the uncomfortable part about all religious extremism
>that people tend to dance around.

- I wont dance around it, yes people are becoming radicalized and looking for love in all the wrong places just like dudes who join the crips or bloods.

www.instagram.com/schemeofthings

  

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dafriquan
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Thu Feb-19-15 09:36 PM

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40. "RE: False flag or not, these groups are successfully recruiting real mus..."
In response to Reply # 31


  

          


>- I wont dance around it, yes people are becoming radicalized
>and looking for love in all the wrong places just like dudes
>who join the crips or bloods.
Precisely.
I recently read about a new initiative in Minnesota that would allow family to report their children if they felt they were getting radicalised. Instead of arresting them, authorities would connect them with help and counselling from with their own community. I think its an intervention that tries to rehabilitate instead of criminalising potential ISIS recruits.

  

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pelicanz
Member since Jul 07th 2005
5028 posts
Thu Feb-19-15 08:25 PM

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36. "RE: I would look in what context it was said"
In response to Reply # 30


  

          

>False flag or not, these groups are successfully recruiting
>real muslims.
>And they turn to it in a misguided attempt to become more
>"devout" not less.
>That's the uncomfortable part about all religious extremism
>that people tend to dance around.

Agreed. Brainwashing by offering martyrdom.

  

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pelicanz
Member since Jul 07th 2005
5028 posts
Thu Feb-19-15 08:42 PM

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37. "RE: how would you interpret "Smite the neck of unbelievers""
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

>On a serious note, I have never been sold on the idea that
>ISIS/Boko Haram/Al Qaeda was unislamic. A different
>denomination? Maybe. Extreme? Oh no doubt. A tad too literal?
>Most Definitely. But rest assured in their minds they are the
>most muslim of all the muslims and they work pretty hard at
>keeping it to close to "the roots".

Their beliefs and definitely their actions don't correlate with Islam though. At all.
Claiming association doesn't necessarily make it so.

The KKK justified their actions through their interpretation of bible passages.
But calling them a Christian denomination is somewhat irksome in my view.

  

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dafriquan
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Thu Feb-19-15 09:29 PM

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39. "Fam, did you read the article?"
In response to Reply # 37


  

          


>Their beliefs and definitely their actions don't correlate
>with Islam though. At all.
I think it would be more illuminating to counter directly some points raised in the article?
I agree with the heart of what you are saying but your defence is exactly the broadstroke dismissal that the article argues completely misses the point or misrepresents.
And when you say Islam, do you ignore the contemporary points of contention that has Islam split into different sects in the first place.

>Claiming association doesn't necessarily make it so.
So who makes the call?
Not just claiming association. Asserting association and unwaveringly seeking credibility within Islam and having minor success do it. I am not sure how knowledegable you are about the history of Christianity but most major denominations started out being dismissed as "unchristian". In fact at some point, they were outright illegal. The language is damn near identical. Apostate vs Heretic. Their recognition mostly came about because they reached a critical mass that could no longer be denied.

>The KKK justified their actions through their interpretation
>of bible passages.
I am sure you know that KKK and ISIS are two different monsters although they have wickedness in common. Sure. But at no point does the grand wizard try to assert his claim to divinity by tracing his lineage to Jesus Christ. The KKK did not attract people from across the world to join in their negro lynching because their word was so "true" and pure. ISIS is obsessed with Islam. It's not just that they are muslims. They are 100% convinced that the Koran can be read directly and does not need to be interpreted by scholars. There is a reason why it resonates with some people. They have strongly interwoven their aims with their belief.

All that said, I think like most extremist groups they had outside help. At this point that fact is no longer as important. Thousands of British Muslims are not leaving the UK to join a CIA/Mossad (or whatever conspiracy) operation. They genuinenly believe that have found salvation. Not outside their religion. But within.



  

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Tommy-B
Member since Mar 03rd 2013
524 posts
Fri Feb-20-15 10:12 AM

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48. "RE: Fam, did you read the article?"
In response to Reply # 39


  

          

of course he didn't.

If you're innocent, be cool.
Only the guilty's catchin' offence.

  

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AbdulJaleel
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Fri Feb-20-15 08:52 AM

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44. "Anderson Cooper last night"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2015/02/19/gk-graeme-wood-on-isis.cnn

www.instagram.com/schemeofthings

  

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ShawndmeSlanted
Member since Oct 30th 2004
43353 posts
Fri Feb-20-15 09:18 AM

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45. "What was your point with the video?"
In response to Reply # 44


  

          

It seems to sum up the article which you had issue with.

---
"though time has passed, im still the future" (c) black thought

  

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AbdulJaleel
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Fri Feb-20-15 01:04 PM

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52. "just sharing a video homie"
In response to Reply # 45


  

          

although 1:50 -2:30 mark is interesting

www.instagram.com/schemeofthings

  

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Tommy-B
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47. "I greatly appreciated this, thanks for posting"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Feb-20-15 10:10 AM by Tommy-B

  

          

after reading this there should be no doubt in anyone's mind that isis are a direct manifestation of the fundamentals of islam. even al-qaeda have distanced themselves from them because they go by the book too much.

i know muslims are gonna jump in like, "NOPE, THEY'RE NOT MUSLIMS! I'M MUSLIM AND I DON'T DO THE STUFF THEY'RE DOING, NOR DO MY MUSLIM FRIENDS!" but, thing is, in isis' eyes, YOU are not a muslim. and, to be fair to them, they may be right. isis follow the koran and hadith line by line. they don't cherry pick which rules they follow; they do everything that they are instructed to do in the texts: from pillaging towns and cities to enslaving, raping and murdering women and children.

obviously i understand that you do not want the reputation of your religion to be pinned on these people, but tough shit really. just because you want to put your fingers in your ears and tune out any criticism of your beliefs whilst screaming "Islamophobia!!", does not mean that there aren't people out there who take everything in the koran literally and will stop at nothing until the apocalypse comes

If you're innocent, be cool.
Only the guilty's catchin' offence.

  

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pelicanz
Member since Jul 07th 2005
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Fri Feb-20-15 11:22 AM

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49. "RE: I greatly appreciated this, thanks for posting"
In response to Reply # 47
Fri Feb-20-15 11:29 AM by pelicanz

  

          

...

  

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Atillah Moor
Member since Sep 05th 2013
13825 posts
Fri Feb-20-15 01:29 PM

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60. "well that apocalypse part is already here"
In response to Reply # 47


  

          

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

  

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Tommy-B
Member since Mar 03rd 2013
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64. "RE: well that apocalypse part is already here"
In response to Reply # 60


  

          

keep on praying for that day, partner!

If you're innocent, be cool.
Only the guilty's catchin' offence.

  

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AbdulJaleel
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61. "RE: I greatly appreciated this, thanks for posting"
In response to Reply # 47


  

          

>after reading this there should be no doubt in anyone's mind
>that isis are a direct manifestation of the fundamentals of
>islam. even al-qaeda have distanced themselves from them
>because they go by the book too much.

- These are extremists, they are not going by the book.

>i know muslims are gonna jump in like, "NOPE, THEY'RE NOT
>MUSLIMS! I'M MUSLIM AND I DON'T DO THE STUFF THEY'RE DOING,
>NOR DO MY MUSLIM FRIENDS!" but, thing is, in isis' eyes, YOU
>are not a muslim. and, to be fair to them, they may be right.

- I am not arrogant enough to say who is and who is not a Muslim. That is not my call and if ISIS did consider me not a Muslim, the sin is on them not me.

>isis follow the koran and hadith line by line. they don't
>cherry pick which rules they follow; they do everything that
>they are instructed to do in the texts: from pillaging towns
>and cities to enslaving, raping and murdering women and
>children.

- So you are basically agreeing that ISIS is the purist form of Islam and any Muslim who denounces their actions is not a Muslim?

>obviously i understand that you do not want the reputation of
>your religion to be pinned on these people, but tough shit
>really.

- So all White people are Racists then if we use that logic.

> just because you want to put your fingers in your ears
>and tune out any criticism of your beliefs whilst screaming
>"Islamophobia!!",

- If you don't know any Muslims personally, then yes it is Islamophobia.

does not mean that there aren't people out
>there who take everything in the koran literally and will stop
>at nothing until the apocalypse comes

- lol, ok dude.

www.instagram.com/schemeofthings

  

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j.
Member since Feb 24th 2009
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Fri Feb-20-15 11:35 AM

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50. "After reading, it seems they're the muslim equivalent of more catholic "
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Feb-20-15 11:36 AM by j.

  

          

than the pope
Super extreme literal line by line word for word type thing
Read about the khawarij also, they're the modern version
the khawarij made takfir on sinners, rebelled against the ruler, were/are extremely devout, etc

Quoting the hadith on jihad and slavery is all good
but there's also hadith on the khawarij and how they must be fought

http://www.faithinallah.org/dangers-of-the-khawarij-ideology-of-violence/

We (Americans) are only making it worse. I say it's an internal Muslim matter and let them be. We keep sending troops over there, applying the insanity definition over and over. Meanwhile our great ally Saudi Arabia also beheads people, but they're our guys so it's all good.

  

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rawsouthpaw
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Fri Feb-20-15 11:36 AM

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51. "General Wesley Clark: ISIS Got Started Through Funding From Our Friends ..."
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Feb-20-15 11:41 AM by rawsouthpaw

  

          

General Wesley Clark: "ISIS Got Started Through Funding From Our Friends & Allies"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHLqaSZPe98


Also

ISIS is forcing a 'moment of truth'
By Wesley Clark
updated 7:35 PM EDT, Tue August 26, 2014

STORY HIGHLIGHTS
Wesley Clark: U.S. must respond to ISIS threat, but with coordinated regional response
He says U.S. can support Islamic friends in region threatened by ISIS, but can't fight their war
He says ISIS has sights on states like Jordan, Lebanon; it could well seize Saudi Arabia
Clark: U.S. involvement only helps recruit jihadists. Mideast nations facing their moment of truth

Editor's note: Wesley K. Clark, a retired Army general and NATO's former supreme allied commander in Europe, is a senior fellow at the Burkle Center for International Relations at the University of California, Los Angeles. Clark consults and advises companies in the satellite communications, biotechnology and energy fields, some with government and Department of Defense contracts.


(CNN) -- America was rightly shocked by the brutal, videotaped murder of American journalist James Foley.
But we should not have been surprised. The Islamic State, as the jihadist group calls itself, has murdered, raped and savaged its way across borders in the Mideast and into the headlines as the latest terrorist foe from the region.
Foley's murder not only gives terrorist stature to ISIS but also, if it draws U.S. ground troops into the fight, will have given ISIS a recruiting bonanza. So the U.S. response requires, not just a set of airstrikes in revenge, but serious strategic calculation.

The U.S. must build a coordinated regional response -- diplomatic, economic and military -- with ground troops from our regional allies and friends, and with possible U.S. support with intelligence, logistics and airstrikes. But we cannot fight this war for our Islamic friends in the region.
Despite its pretensions, ISIS is not yet a state. It was initially a group of fighters funded, armed and assisted by groups or governments opposing Syrian President Bashar al-Assad. But its call for a caliphate governed by extremist interpretations of Sharia law precisely echoes Saudi Wahhabi teaching, and is magnetic to disaffected, vulnerable young people.
Thus far ISIS has perhaps 20,000 to 40,000 fighters or more, some heavy equipment, cash, oil, and a stunned, subdued population numbering perhaps a few million now suffering under extreme Sharia law. It is not, at this point, an existential military threat to an alerted Baghdad, backed by Iran (and the U.S.), or the Kurds, supported by U.S. airpower.

While it has challenged al-Assad's forces in Syria, it is more focused on carving out its territory in northern Syria, destabilizing Lebanon, and probably preparing for bolder moves against other states in the region, such as Jordan.
Who is the ISIS?
ISIS fighters, including perhaps a few thousand alienated young people from Europe, the Caucasus, or North America, do pose a terrorist threat far beyond the territory occupied by ISIS. Governments are anxiously screening travelers and seeking to block, intern, or otherwise isolate these potential terrorists when they depart Syria. This is difficult, but our homeland security is far stronger than it was a decade ago. The U.S., at least, should be able to handle this very serious threat
But if ISIS is allowed to consolidate its gains, build its forces, spread its tentacles of terror and subversion, then it will pose a serious threat to Lebanon, Jordan and the principal Sunni states in the region, particularly Saudi Arabia.
Map: Where is ISIS?
Saudi Arabia must recognize that it will eventually become the primary target of ISIS. It controls the most holy sites of Islam, and by its adherence to, promotion and export of extremist interpretations of Islam, Saudi Arabia is uniquely vulnerable to the ISIS's moral suasion.
Massive purchases of Western arms will help only if the Saudi armed forces and populace remain loyal to the Saudi government. For Saudi Arabia, this time, there's no safety in underwriting the services of others from outside the region. Ultimately, it will have to be the Saudi people themselves, their ruling family and their clergy who rally to defeat the threat of ISIS.
Will Obama hit ISIS in Syria? Who killed James Foley? U.S. considers containing ISIS in Syria U.S. prepared to strike ISIS in Syria
Make no mistake: The latent threat is that ISIS could seize control in Saudi Arabia, with all its oil, revenues, and modern weaponry.
Therefore, coordinated action against ISIS is urgent. But because ISIS's motive force is primarily religious, and because the U.S. armed forces are neither linguistically nor culturally best adapted for a sustained fight in the region, we should be wary of committing major land forces.
Opinion: How U.S. can help Syria drive out ISIS
The U.S. has learned the hard way that Western armies inflame extremists and serve as recruiting magnets for terrorists. Instead, other nations, and particularly Saudi Arabia and other Sunni states, must put their soldiers forward, and bear the brunt of the fighting.
The U.S. can use diplomacy and economic assistance, and it can strike using airpower, or special forces, to reinforce the efforts of our allies, but we cannot fight a religious war as proxies for our Islamic friends in the region.
5 key questions in the fight against ISIS
The Mideast is approaching its moment of truth, particularly for Saudi Arabia. Having exported and promoted extremist Sunni religious ideology, Saudi Arabia must face up to the threat posed by its own, even more extremist progeny. It must summon the courage to take a firm stand now, before ISIS becomes even stronger.
For the U.S. there is nothing to be gained by delay. We must work urgently, behind the scenes, to shape an effective regional response, in coordination with our friends and allies, now.

  

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Rjcc
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54. "this article seems to make some statements that aren't as solid"
In response to Reply # 0


          

as the writing suggests they are.

an alternative take worth reading is here

http://www.juancole.com/2015/02/todays-about-daesh.html

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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Tommy-B
Member since Mar 03rd 2013
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Fri Feb-20-15 01:20 PM

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56. "RE: this article seems to make some statements that aren't as solid"
In response to Reply # 54


  

          

>as the writing suggests they are.

such as?

If you're innocent, be cool.
Only the guilty's catchin' offence.

  

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Rjcc
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59. "click the link dude"
In response to Reply # 56


          

also, use reading comprehension. when someone is presented as an expert, what actual evidence is used?

when something is stated as fact, what is specifically being cited.

I recognized that when I read it the first time

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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AbdulJaleel
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62. "haters gonna hate"
In response to Reply # 59
Fri Feb-20-15 01:39 PM by AbdulJaleel

  

          

and feel the need to debate

www.instagram.com/schemeofthings

  

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Tommy-B
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Fri Feb-20-15 01:52 PM

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66. "RE: click the link dude"
In response to Reply # 59


  

          

i did.

i want to know what parts of the original article don't seem 'solid' to you

If you're innocent, be cool.
Only the guilty's catchin' offence.

  

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AbdulJaleel
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58. "All of these opinions on what Islam is but"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

have you ever picked up a Qur'an and read it?

do you know any Muslims?

www.instagram.com/schemeofthings

  

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AbdulJaleel
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65. "this part:"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

"Both are closely identified with the jihadist wing of a branch of Sunnism called Salafism, after the Arabic al salaf al salih, the “pious forefathers.” These forefathers are the Prophet himself and his earliest adherents, whom Salafis honor and emulate as the models for all behavior, including warfare, couture, family life, even dentistry."

so basically all them Philly Muslims is ISIS?


www.instagram.com/schemeofthings

  

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Tommy-B
Member since Mar 03rd 2013
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Fri Feb-20-15 03:49 PM

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69. "this is what muslim apologists do"
In response to Reply # 65
Fri Feb-20-15 03:50 PM by Tommy-B

  

          

you get defensive over the possibility that the radical jihadi group, Islamic State, may have a connection to islam and you bring out strawmen such as "OH, SO I GUESS THAT MEANS (insert large group of people) IS DOWN WITH ISIS AS WELL?!" or "WHAT ABOUT ALL THE OTHER PEOPLE WHO KILL IN (insert religion)'S NAME?!"

it's what got ben affleck so teary-eyed and hysterical on bill maher's show. because he was arguing from an emotional perspective, like you are.

i'm not saying that muslims such as yourself would do the horrific things isis are doing. nor would i suggest that you condone what they are doing - although research shows that many muslims do.

i'm saying that isis practice an extreme form of islam. maybe not the islam YOU practice, but a form of it nonetheless.

if you ask them, they'll tell you that they practice the truest form of islam, but it's not really relevant.

it's just ridiculous when you try to have a discussion on isis and people immediately jump in with, "BUT THEY'RE NOT MUSLIM! NOTHING TO DO WITH ISLAM! ISLAMOPHOBE!!" as if it's ludicrous to even conceive of such an idea.

but whatever. as i said before, this is more than just a matter of losing an argument to you. you don't want the 'good' name of your religion sullied by these mindless, psychopathic brutes, so you'll do all you can to deflect the criticism that comes its way.

If you're innocent, be cool.
Only the guilty's catchin' offence.

  

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AbdulJaleel
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73. "you'dont have the knowledge or authority to label me"
In response to Reply # 69


  

          

or my beliefs.

www.instagram.com/schemeofthings

  

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Tommy-B
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Sat Feb-21-15 09:32 AM

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76. "i know that you worship the same god"
In response to Reply # 73


  

          

and quote from the same holy books as them

If you're innocent, be cool.
Only the guilty's catchin' offence.

  

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AbdulJaleel
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91. "the religion of CIA and Mossad operatives?"
In response to Reply # 76


  

          

keep reaching dude

www.instagram.com/schemeofthings

  

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Tommy-B
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92. "allah's the head of the CIA?!!"
In response to Reply # 91
Sun Feb-22-15 10:08 AM by Tommy-B

  

          

as well as the head of the israeli secret service?!?!?!

this is getting deep.

it's good to have people like you, musa and attillah moor on here who can help us keep our eyes open to what's REALLY going on.

STAY WOKE!

If you're innocent, be cool.
Only the guilty's catchin' offence.

  

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AbdulJaleel
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136. "its called a False Flag Operation "
In response to Reply # 92


  

          

http://youtu.be/j5OYeBQdrFE

www.instagram.com/schemeofthings

  

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AZ
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70. "what an intellectually dishonest and offensive"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Feb-20-15 03:58 PM by AZ

          

article. I'm glad you swiped the entire thing because the Atlantic doesn't deserve the clicks.


https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/02/20/atlantic-defines-real-islam-says-isis/

  

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Tommy-B
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Fri Feb-20-15 04:19 PM

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71. "another pointless article from an islam apologist"
In response to Reply # 70


  

          

all he's saying in this is that a lot of muslims don't condone what isis are doing. cool.

a lot of muslims do though, and that's something we need to work on.

If you're innocent, be cool.
Only the guilty's catchin' offence.

  

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AZ
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72. "RE: another pointless article from an islam apologist"
In response to Reply # 71


          

Ok, you're trolling. Move along.

  

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Rjcc
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146. "nah, it's just a poorly written article"
In response to Reply # 71


          


www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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Tommy-B
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150. "...by a guy called Murtaza Hussain"
In response to Reply # 146


  

          

i wonder if he has any dog in this fight

If you're innocent, be cool.
Only the guilty's catchin' offence.

  

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AFRICAN
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75. "Non-Muslims defining what is or isn't true Islam. Lol"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

ISIS is Salafi theology on crack.
The vast majority of Muslims are not Salafi, let alone agree with chopping peoples head off.
But I'll let you guys explain the deen according to an article.

http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
instagram:@3rdworldview
Blessed be the Lord /who believe any mess they read up on the message board

  

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AbdulJaleel
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90. "Malcolm X said it best"
In response to Reply # 75


  

          

“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”

www.instagram.com/schemeofthings

  

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kwez
Member since Aug 10th 2003
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Sat Feb-21-15 09:35 AM

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77. "The responses here further prove religion is a crock of shit"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

So we have Muslims in here claiming ISIS is not practicing Islam as it was meant to be practiced.

Then we have ISIS claiming that these same people are the ones not practicing Islam as it was meant to be practiced.

And on top of that, neither side has a stronger claim than the other.

What a joke.

  

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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
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Sat Feb-21-15 11:06 AM

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79. "Well, yeah..."
In response to Reply # 77


          

There's IMO no point in talking about misinterpreting or using words as "true" and "real"; it's ALL interpretations when it comes to abstract stuff like this and to say that ISIS are interpreting it wrong when ISIS themselves will say that they are interpreting shit right and both sides pointing to various texts to validate their views... that's what I don't dig about religion, regardless of whatever type and it is that it gives a *possibility* to be interpreted in assholish manners. So does communism, capitalism, democracy etc. though so whatever...

HOWEVER, I also think it's fair to talk about a mainstream, modern interpretation vs. an extremist one and I just don't think it's fair to put Islam (or christianity or judaism or whatever) to blame for anything; I think it's safe to say that there are practically always more "practical" concerns involved in this shit than religion. That people chose to use religion as a scapegoat is really no difference than any other scapegoat people use for their extremism...

And this is coming from a stonecold, die-hard atheist; I just think the people arguing the "religion sucks" case (as evidenced by Tommy B in this post) come across as just as irrational and brainwashed as the religious...

As an outsider-I'm swedish and raised in an environment where *everyone* was atheist; furthermore, I don't think I've spend 10 seconds of my entire life pondering spiritual matters-I get the impression that atheism is becoming something of a "movement"/scene associated with group-think values in the US with everything that implies and I don't like that even if it doesn't affect me directly-that's not what atheism is about to me... It's very disappointing actually

  

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Backbone
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80. "This is pretty much where I'm at."
In response to Reply # 79


  

          

I keep a solid distance from a lot of the vocal atheists on this board, since their 'critical thinking' often doesn't extend beyond their peeves with religion (or really just Islam in a lot of cases).

___________________
"So this is what everybody's always talking about! Diablo! If only I'd known. The beauty! The beauty!"

  

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Tommy-B
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81. "RE: Well, yeah..."
In response to Reply # 79
Sat Feb-21-15 03:49 PM by Tommy-B

  

          

i appreciate that i'm going extra with this, but we're on an internet forum so i can let more shit fly than i would in real life.

i wasn't trying to turn this into a "religion sucks!" post either. it's just that the first comment in this thread was someone immediately jumping in to defend islam from the criticism that was obviously gonna come its way.

it's ridiculous how people won't even acknowledge that their religion promotes some pretty terrible things. some terrible things that people may believe in a little too seriously.

we're beating a dead horse, i know. true, religion does suck and some people will commit horrific acts in its name. but these are still important issues we're talking about, so why does it matter if i'm getting vocal about it?

it's cool that you want to build a harmonious bridge with all religions, but some of the shit they promote - islam especially - is not compatible with how decent human beings live.

just because in sweden you haven't had to deal with any problems regarding religion, doesn't mean other people aren't living in fear and misery each day because of it.

isis are murdering and raping people daily, all because they believe they have the divine right to do so. boko haram are destroying villages and enslaving children for the same reason.

i'm not saying that ALL religious people or ALL muslims should be condemned because of this. i'm not even saying that islam as a whole religion should be condemned for it.

isis are a small minority of muslims and i'd be a moron if i suggested that all muslims support what they do. however, a large number of people are simply being ignorant to what is happening here and are refusing to have a proper discussion on it because they're arguing from an emotional and personal perspective.

the sole root of this isis problem is religion, and i don't know how you can deny that

If you're innocent, be cool.
Only the guilty's catchin' offence.

  

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Atillah Moor
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82. "So no religion = no ISIS ??"
In response to Reply # 81


  

          

to be specific- if there was no such thing as religion then there wouldn't be groups like this? I think the Vikings and Mongols would probably disagree.

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

  

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Tommy-B
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83. "RE: So no religion = no ISIS ??"
In response to Reply # 82


  

          

>to be specific- if there was no such thing as religion then
>there wouldn't be groups like this? I think the Vikings and
>Mongols would probably disagree.

no. there'd still be groups like this even if religion didn't exist. however, in this particular instance religion is to blame

If you're innocent, be cool.
Only the guilty's catchin' offence.

  

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Atillah Moor
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84. "the religion not the people(individuals)?"
In response to Reply # 83


  

          

I mean-- I get you're argument. It just seem to absolve people of making bad decisions.

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

  

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Tommy-B
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85. "?"
In response to Reply # 84


  

          

no.

people are choosing to commit horrific acts because they believe wholeheartedly in their religion. not sure how anyone is getting absolved here

If you're innocent, be cool.
Only the guilty's catchin' offence.

  

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Atillah Moor
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86. "Well you're blaming religion whereas I blame the people "
In response to Reply # 85


  

          

Like if we were having the guns don't kill people debate it seems like you would be on the guns kill people side. I'm not saying your view is wrong it just seems like there is one more level to it-- if that makes sense.

______________________________________

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Sat Feb-21-15 04:36 PM

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88. "RE: Well you're blaming religion whereas I blame the people "
In response to Reply # 86


          




How about we blame both....?

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Tommy-B
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89. "exactly"
In response to Reply # 88


  

          

If you're innocent, be cool.
Only the guilty's catchin' offence.

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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96. "that's like blaming the constitution for political extremist"
In response to Reply # 89


          

on the right and left.

  

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Tommy-B
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98. "no it's not"
In response to Reply # 96


  

          

where in the constitution does it say that you should behead those who don't believe in the constitution?

the constitution is not a barbaric, medieval ideology that instructs people to commit violence and spread terror in its name.

If you're innocent, be cool.
Only the guilty's catchin' offence.

  

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legsdiamond
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105. "when did I say political extremist cut off heads? "
In response to Reply # 98


          

political extremist do shit like bomb buildings or start militias

  

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legsdiamond
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94. "I believe man is to blame... "
In response to Reply # 88


          

regardless of what is written on a tablet, parchment, etc... man always finds a way to revise, twist or manipulate it to serve their purpose.

  

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Tommy-B
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97. "well, yeah..."
In response to Reply # 94


  

          

that's because religion is man-made.

therefore, the man who created religion was wrong, the religion itself is wrong and the people who practice it are wrong.

there is no either or to this. BOTH man and man-created religion can be to blame.

If you're innocent, be cool.
Only the guilty's catchin' offence.

  

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legsdiamond
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102. "if you believe man created religion... game, set, match. "
In response to Reply # 97


          

because if man didn't create religion he damn sure would have created something else to create/accumulate power/order/law/rules....

  

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Tommy-B
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103. "????"
In response to Reply # 102


  

          

what are you even arguing here?

that men like power and wealth and will do stuff to get it?

ok?

we're in agreement, i guess?

If you're innocent, be cool.
Only the guilty's catchin' offence.

  

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legsdiamond
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104. "you are saying Islam is partly responsible for ISIS or nah?"
In response to Reply # 103


          

I think all the blame falls on man.

  

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Tommy-B
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114. "islam is to blame, yes"
In response to Reply # 104


  

          

and also to blame are the men who perpetuate and practice the bullshit spewed in the islamic texts.

two things can be blamed.

for example, nazism is wrong and nazis are ALSO wrong for following nazism. see how that works? it's not that complicated, give it a try!

If you're innocent, be cool.
Only the guilty's catchin' offence.

  

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legsdiamond
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118. "and yet, 99% of muslims are peaceful... "
In response to Reply # 114


          

  

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Tommy-B
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125. "#81"
In response to Reply # 118


  

          

If you're innocent, be cool.
Only the guilty's catchin' offence.

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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127. "100% wrong bruh... "
In response to Reply # 125


          

  

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cgonz00cc
Member since Aug 01st 2002
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93. "if your examples are from 800 years ago..."
In response to Reply # 82


  

          

  

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Tommy-B
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95. "lol, that's what i thought"
In response to Reply # 93


  

          

of all the non-religiously motivated acts of violence he could have picked, he chose the vikings to prove his point?! (a point i wasn't even arguing against?!)

plus, it doesn't make sense because the vikings DID hold deeply religious beliefs.

"It is true that almost the entire population of Scandinavia was pagan at the beginning of the Viking Age, but the Vikings had many gods, and it was no problem for them to accept the Christian god alongside their own."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/vikings/religion_01.shtml

but whatever, i wouldn't expect any less from him. he's shown plenty of times that he's willing to jump through as many hoops and take as many bullets as he can for religion.

If you're innocent, be cool.
Only the guilty's catchin' offence.

  

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legsdiamond
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100. "you guys are really trying to convince us man wouldn't kill"
In response to Reply # 95
Sun Feb-22-15 11:31 AM by legsdiamond

          

rape, pillage if not for religion?


LOL...you give man waaaaay too much credit.

  

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Tommy-B
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101. "slow down there, player"
In response to Reply # 100
Sun Feb-22-15 11:31 AM by Tommy-B

  

          

you're reading things i'm not actually saying

i have not once said that religion is the cause of all problems and that we wouldn't be raping and pillaging without it.

no. we'd still be doing that regardless of religion.

i'm saying that in THIS case, when discussing isis, religion IS to blame.

all these strawmen dying for nothing

If you're innocent, be cool.
Only the guilty's catchin' offence.

  

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Atillah Moor
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111. "Religious leaders plotted to kill Jesus so no-- not really"
In response to Reply # 95


  

          

I gave some other more recent examples of mans inhumanity to man. Pagan or not I'm sure they would have raided Ireland and other countries regardless. Christianity actually helped calm them down a bit or at least that's what folks like to argue.

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

  

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Atillah Moor
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110. "Do you not see humans that are still as barbaric as 800 years ago?"
In response to Reply # 93


  

          

800 years or 8 years it makes no difference. How long ago was the Rape of Nanking or Berlin or Stalingrad? Maybe I'm misunderstanding but sounds like you're saying people are less violent these days.

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

  

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Tommy-B
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115. "RE: Do you not see humans that are still as barbaric as 800 years ago?"
In response to Reply # 110


  

          

>
>Maybe I'm
>misunderstanding but sounds like you're saying people are less
>violent these days.
>

you're misunderstanding. maybe you should sit this one out

If you're innocent, be cool.
Only the guilty's catchin' offence.

  

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Atillah Moor
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119. "Cool-- didn't know you were speaking for Cog now."
In response to Reply # 115
Sun Feb-22-15 05:46 PM by Atillah Moor

  

          

Outsourced responses? That's pretty novel.

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

  

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Tommy-B
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121. "*nods towards the bench*"
In response to Reply # 119


  

          

it's waiting for you

If you're innocent, be cool.
Only the guilty's catchin' offence.

  

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cgonz00cc
Member since Aug 01st 2002
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120. "its not that"
In response to Reply # 110


  

          

It was just a bad example

  

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Atillah Moor
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122. "Sheeeeit"
In response to Reply # 120


  

          

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

  

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Musa
Member since Mar 08th 2006
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108. "ISIS is a creation of USA, Israel and UK (links)"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

(Arming Libyan rebels)
http://www.businessinsider.com/obama-admin-admits-to-covertly-sending-heavy-weapons-to-syrian-rebels-2012-12

(Arming Syrian rebels)
http://www.newsweek.com/iran-says-its-willing-fight-isis-price-273939

(A said Islamic militant head of Sudan calling out ISIS)
http://www.newsweek.com/iran-says-its-willing-fight-isis-price-273939

(Suspicion of CIA and ISIS link)
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/09/21/world/middleeast/suspicions-run-deep-in-iraq-that-cia-and-the-islamic-state-are-united.html?referrer=&_r=0


(A pattern of proxy wars in the so called middle east)
http://m.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/03/in-arming-libyan-rebels-the-us-would-follow-an-old-dark-path/73019/

(Why is Iran the leading force against ISIS)
http://www.newsweek.com/iran-says-its-willing-fight-isis-price-273939

<----

Soundcloud.com/aquil84

(HIP HOP)
http://aquil.bandcamp.com

  

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dafriquan
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109. "RE: ISIS is a creation of USA, Israel and UK (links)"
In response to Reply # 108


  

          


Which one of these links talks about the Israel connection?
Thanks

>http://www.businessinsider.com/obama-admin-admits-to-covertly-sending-heavy-weapons-to-syrian-rebels-2012-12
>
>(Arming Syrian rebels)
>http://www.newsweek.com/iran-says-its-willing-fight-isis-price-273939
>
>(A said Islamic militant head of Sudan calling out ISIS)
>http://www.newsweek.com/iran-says-its-willing-fight-isis-price-273939
>
>(Suspicion of CIA and ISIS link)
>http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/09/21/world/middleeast/suspicions-run-deep-in-iraq-that-cia-and-the-islamic-state-are-united.html?referrer=&_r=0
>
>
>(A pattern of proxy wars in the so called middle east)
>http://m.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/03/in-arming-libyan-rebels-the-us-would-follow-an-old-dark-path/73019/
>
>(Why is Iran the leading force against ISIS)
>http://www.newsweek.com/iran-says-its-willing-fight-isis-price-273939

  

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Tommy-B
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117. "the article about there being rumours in iraq mentions it"
In response to Reply # 109


  

          

Omar al-Jabouri, some guy who lives in iraq, said, "It is obvious to everyone that the Islamic State is a creation of the United States and Israel."

If you're innocent, be cool.
Only the guilty's catchin' offence.

  

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Atillah Moor
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112. "They don't hear you though "
In response to Reply # 108


  

          

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

  

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Tommy-B
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116. "The only evidence you have to support your claim..."
In response to Reply # 108
Sun Feb-22-15 04:35 PM by Tommy-B

  

          

...that the CIA is the secret mastermind behind isis, is an article about their being rumours and suspicion of it on the streets of iraq?!?

lol.

you might as well have written your own article about their being suspicion of it on okayplayer.

you didn't have to post those other links either. it's not news that the us and uk have armed rebels to help fight tyranny.

are you a muslim by any chance? because this is some hardcore deflecting

If you're innocent, be cool.
Only the guilty's catchin' offence.

  

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Atillah Moor
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123. "no CIA does jacked up shit post? "
In response to Reply # 116


  

          

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

  

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Tommy-B
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124. "look man..."
In response to Reply # 123
Sun Feb-22-15 08:07 PM by Tommy-B

  

          

i'm getting a bit tired of going back and forth with you on this.

i've argued against quite a few points in here - some that i didn't even make - and it's getting tedious having to clarify each time.

in all of my comments you've looked for the tiniest bit of string to pull on when you think you've got me on something - even if it's something i haven't said or implied.

i'm trying to be as careful as i can with my words - because some people on here will grind you to death on semantics *cough* bartek *cough*. so can you at least quote me next time or something? because you seem to be misunderstanding what i'm saying a lot.

i don't expect you to change your mind on this subject. i don't think i've ever seen you condemn religion, and that's cool. but, in this case, you may need to concede this one.

true, the US and UK have supplied guns to shady people. many shady people. this is not news at all.

they may even have supplied guns to the shady people who went on to form isis. i never denied that this could be true.

what i DID deny was true was musa claiming that the CIA and israel are the masterminds behind isis. because it's not true. in fact, it's a pretty fucking laughable idea.

if you believe it to be true, cool. i seriously doubt you'll be changing your mind any time soon so we'll leave it here

If you're innocent, be cool.
Only the guilty's catchin' offence.

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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126. "RE: look man..."
In response to Reply # 124


          


>
>true, the US and UK have supplied guns to shady people. many
>shady people. this is not news at all.
>
>they may even have supplied guns to the shady people who went
>on to form isis. i never denied that this could be true.
>
>what i DID deny was true was musa claiming that the CIA and
>israel are the masterminds behind isis. because it's not true.
>in fact, it's a pretty fucking laughable idea.
>

hmm.. I dont see how its laughable if you are willing to admit we supplied weapons to shady people who formed ISIS.

We put Saddam in power and then blamed him for 9/11. We let the Bin Ladens fly out AFTER we implemented a no fly zone. We still let the Saudi's do whatever they please...

Nothing should be laughed at IMO.

  

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Tommy-B
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128. "are you three the same person or something?"
In response to Reply # 126


  

          

regardless of your views on laughing at something, i will continue to do so.

if you can provide me with some hard, undeniable, solid evidence to suggest that the idea may not be so laughable, i will maybe reconsider my stance. until then i will carry on my hearty laughter in the face of anyone who spouts it as truth.

If you're innocent, be cool.
Only the guilty's catchin' offence.

  

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Musa
Member since Mar 08th 2006
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131. "That's why they are called conspiracies"
In response to Reply # 128
Sun Feb-22-15 09:02 PM by Musa

  

          

Dummy they are done in secrecy. But to blatantly deny the prior history of funding and supplying "rebels" is mighty convenient and white of you.

But I know you troll and don't add two plus two because that is too far a leap in logic for a message board troll.

<----

Soundcloud.com/aquil84

(HIP HOP)
http://aquil.bandcamp.com

  

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Tommy-B
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Mon Feb-23-15 10:15 AM

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132. "ok, now i know you're all the same person"
In response to Reply # 131


  

          

because you keep misunderstanding what i'm saying.

when did i say we didn't fund and support rebels?!?! i said it very clearly two posts ago that we DID.

you're clutching at straws now and it's becoming pretty clear that you're just another muslim jumping into the line of fire to defend his religion. thus, i will no longer attempt to persuade you that you are wrong as i severely doubt you will ever concede that islam is to blame.

i get it. you'll do all you can to try and deflect criticism or shift the blame onto something else other than your religion.

if you want to believe that the US and israel are masterminding isis, you're free to do that. if you believe that the reason there's no evidence to support this claim is because it's all been done in secret, again, you're free to do that.

as i am free to laugh at you froot loops for turning yourselves inside out to protect what you believe to be true.

If you're innocent, be cool.
Only the guilty's catchin' offence.

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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137. "you all disagree with me so you must be the same person...lol"
In response to Reply # 132


          

  

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Atillah Moor
Member since Sep 05th 2013
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Tue Feb-24-15 08:49 AM

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148. "I'm just saying where there is smoke there is fire "
In response to Reply # 124


  

          

We've already made our positions clear regarding Islam vs the individual.

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

  

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Lardlad95
Member since Jul 31st 2002
66340 posts
Sun Feb-22-15 08:39 PM

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129. "The religion angle doesn't make it worse for me. "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

If such close adherence to the prophet's life and deeds were tenable in an age after the prophet's death they wouldn't need to resurrect these practices in the first place. So I don't really care whether or not muslims have to admit that stuff is in the Koran any more than I care about the minutia of other holy texts.

Even where religion is involved the practical and the mundane will usually beat out the sacred but uncomfortable.




"All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players:
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts..." -The Bard

  

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Tommy-B
Member since Mar 03rd 2013
524 posts
Mon Feb-23-15 10:27 AM

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133. "RE: The religion angle doesn't make it worse for me. "
In response to Reply # 129
Mon Feb-23-15 10:30 AM by Tommy-B

  

          

it does for me. because it means that the people we're dealing with have messiah complexes and cannot be reasoned with.

they believe wholeheartedly in what is written in the koran and they are willing to cause as much chaos and destruction as they can to appease allah.

they don't have demands and they're not willing to negotiate. they're simply saying, "believe us or die." there's nothing to work around as they are not willing to concede anything nor back down in the face of islam's enemies.

look how hard it's been trying to reason with the devout believers in this thread. their religion comes first, and nothing will ever get them to consider an alternative, despite how warped their view of the world becomes.

granted, it doesn't matter how much isis' beliefs align with what is said in the koran. what DOES matter however is that they've got an unshakable belief in their destructive ideology and they are willing to stop at nothing until they achieve their goal of bringing upon the apocalypse.

If you're innocent, be cool.
Only the guilty's catchin' offence.

  

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AbdulJaleel
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23892 posts
Mon Feb-23-15 02:34 PM

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134. "all this power yet they haven't moved on Israel?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

false flag operation

www.instagram.com/schemeofthings

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
79601 posts
Mon Feb-23-15 02:35 PM

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135. "something doesn't smell right about this..."
In response to Reply # 134


          

  

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Tommy-B
Member since Mar 03rd 2013
524 posts
Mon Feb-23-15 03:33 PM

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138. "just a question..."
In response to Reply # 134


  

          

do you believe there has ever been islamic-motivated terrorism? or has it always been a conspiracy set up by the US, UK and israel?

If you're innocent, be cool.
Only the guilty's catchin' offence.

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
15894 posts
Mon Feb-23-15 04:08 PM

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139. "Is this a serious question?"
In response to Reply # 134


          

Think about who ISIS has been mostly fighting. An incompetent Iraqi army, under-armed Kurdish army, and Syrian rebel groups.

With that in mind, you wonder why they are not jumping at the bit to take on one of the strongest military in the world?
They know better.

_______________________________________

  

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Musa
Member since Mar 08th 2006
15789 posts
Mon Feb-23-15 04:08 PM

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140. "See how easy it is to subtract the bullish"
In response to Reply # 134


  

          

and add up the facts.

<----

Soundcloud.com/aquil84

(HIP HOP)
http://aquil.bandcamp.com

  

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Tommy-B
Member since Mar 03rd 2013
524 posts
Mon Feb-23-15 04:15 PM

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141. "lol"
In response to Reply # 140


  

          

If you're innocent, be cool.
Only the guilty's catchin' offence.

  

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kwez
Member since Aug 10th 2003
11776 posts
Mon Feb-23-15 04:39 PM

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142. "What for? The article states clearly what their aims are."
In response to Reply # 134


  

          


************************

  

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ShawndmeSlanted
Member since Oct 30th 2004
43353 posts
Mon Feb-23-15 09:20 PM

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145. "Yup."
In response to Reply # 142


  

          

And I don't necessarily disagree with them but in this case the supposed reason is in the article and this clown came through trying to crush buildings in a debate about the article when he didn't read the article.

Ok ma, and?

---
"though time has passed, im still the future" (c) black thought

  

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Rjcc
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Tue Feb-24-15 01:36 AM

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147. "it states its version of what their aims are"
In response to Reply # 142


          


www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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Allah
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Mon Feb-23-15 06:58 PM

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143. "IARAOT"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

_______________________
"Arm Leg Leg Arm Hate." c/o desus
_______________________
Divine Ruler
http://www.facebook.com/divineruler
__gigs__
__stuff__

  

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Tommy-B
Member since Mar 03rd 2013
524 posts
Tue Feb-24-15 11:02 AM

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149. "anybody notice..."
In response to Reply # 0
Tue Feb-24-15 11:09 AM by Tommy-B

  

          

how isis haven't attacked jay-z yet?

hmmm... something seems fishy about that. all that fire power and they still haven't moved on to one of the highest-ranking members of the illuminati?

hmmm.

there's no evidence to suggest that jay-z is behind isis - but why would there be? he's in the illuminati! it's all being done in secret of course!

there's too much smoke surrounding the large, burning, islamic-shaped crater for this to be a coincidence. anybody got any videos or speculative blog posts to back this up? i have a feeling we may be onto something.

perhaps attillah moor, musa, legsdiamond and abdul jaleel can put their collective third eyes together and share their visions with us?

jay-z can't get away with this!!

'LUMINATI

http://endoftheamericandream.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Jay-Z-Eye-Of-Horus.jpg

If you're innocent, be cool.
Only the guilty's catchin' offence.

  

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