It turns out Hip Hop didn't start out in the Bronx... http://youtu.be/1G13bR0B0-8

Gonna watch this when I get home from work.

one for the nostalgia but also because it gives voice to the pioneers
who have been overlooked and makes explicit the seemingly loose
connections between jazz singers and the earliest rappers

damn. they gettin nerdy af talking about these speakers. audiophiles should love this

It seems like Herc, Bam, Flash and them have been living a huge lie for decades. But...why? Was it desperation? Why did they lie about starting hip hop for all those years?

I'm loving this man. Hard for me to do my work but I can't turn it off. The soundtrack is crazy.

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damn.

"at the fantasia? you know they be rockin they asssss off out there" (c) tom browne / jamaica funk


peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
** i move away from the mic to breathe in

Seriously though, thanks for this link.

________________________________
There are dozens of us! Dozens!

Good looking. I always wondered where Dip Dip Die So Socialize came from.

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mind
--------
matter

---------------------------------------
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peace & blessings,

x.

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=========================================
** i move away from the mic to breathe in

fuck you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tqQQ89JuyU
1:23

fuck you.

________________________________________

"A Slew Of Empty Gas In My Tank" (C) Khujo Goodie

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in any setting


music, books, gaming sports whatever


this is some amazing shit

it kinda primed your brain to get blessed with some info

fuck you.

It hurts because this will probably never happen again. The city has changed so much that you can't play music that loud anymore.

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> The
>city has changed so much that you can't play music that loud
>anymore.


it made perfect sense, but that kind of leeway seems rare today

seriously though, they were so understaffed and dealing with so much loud music was the least of their concerns.

Id argue it was that way until the "Quality of Life Crimes" Guiliani era

I remember in high school when the block parties started having curfews. Before then I would go to sleep to all those hustle jams. Stuff like that kept the neighborhood together in a way.

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peace in the streets.

peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
** i move away from the mic to breathe in

-30-
You know it's drama, but it sound real good.

around the whole 40th commemoration of Hip hop talking about connections and roots that pre-dated herc and others especially out west.

i love Boots, but don't try to make this no West Coast shit.

we had our funk culture poppin in Cali, but that's a whole different tradition.

-30-
You know it's drama, but it sound real good.

this is great.

intellectualism had yet to pervade the culture.

i loved the touch of the computer graphic rendering of the berthas and all the other speakers. that shit was great.


peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
** i move away from the mic to breathe in

kinda weakens the whole thing.

it don't invalidate it.

and it's fascinating for an outsider, like myself. i learned a lot from this. i had heard of DJ Hollywood and the Disco Twins before, but i ain't know shit about Grandmaster Flowers and these other cats.

i totally accept hip-hop wasn't created in a vacuum and had precedent around the city, but come on, though.

it comes off like Bronx bashing.

-30-
You know it's drama, but it sound real good.

At least I thought he was a Manhattan guy.

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-30-
You know it's drama, but it sound real good.

most of these cats before. enough to know that shit ain't spring from a vacuum.

herc was part of sound system culture / jamaican ish. so of course he wasn't the only one.

and i've heard lots of cats big up pete 'dj' jones. clubs like the fantasia was bigged up in songs. i had NO idea that east elmhurst was popping like that, tho. many times as i been through there, i'd have taken a sight seeing tour.



>kinda weakens the whole thing.
>
>it don't invalidate it.
>
>and it's fascinating for an outsider, like myself. i learned a
>lot from this. i had heard of DJ Hollywood and the Disco Twins
>before, but i ain't know shit about Grandmaster Flowers and
>these other cats.

i ain't know about grandmaster flowers -- might have heard the name, but not understood his position. all them dudes was doing it back then, man.

i got mad nostalgic. i remember we had a few park jams in nj (south jersey, not up in the bricks, which was basically same shit as nyc). those was good days.

and they showed the one dj w/ the P.A.L. t-shirt. man.


>
>i totally accept hip-hop wasn't created in a vacuum and had
>precedent around the city, but come on, though.
>
>it comes off like Bronx bashing.

the one cat (lightskinnt dude) was salty as fuck on queens' behalf.



peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
** i move away from the mic to breathe in

I loved when Kid said Brooklyn was like Planet of the Apes. Cats didn't just go to any neighborhood like it was all good. Those were the end of the gang days.

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than others

If someone stole your historical right, especially being a integral part of something that is such a major force like hip hop is, wouldn't you be salty?

And talked about how Pete DJ Jones inspired him. 36 minute mark.

DJ Hollywood too


www.wadeoradio.com
www.twitter.com/wadeoradio
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Lies been accepted as the truth.

+
+
+
+
+
Everything's turning out perfectly

All the Bronx dudes would have done is continue to lie like they've been doing for decades. This documentary exposes the absolute truth of where hip hop began.

Look at how many documentaries Flash, Bam, Herc and them have been in over the decades lying their ass off, purposely omitting How Grandmaster Flowers started it all in Brooklyn.

The Disco Twins from Queens created turntablism. I could never trust those Bronx dudes for their word after watching this. Them dudes are frauds. KRS-1 probably knew all along which makes it even more sickening.

When I think about it, I never met an honest person from the Bx. It must be their water supply or something.

>When I think about it, I never met an honest person from the
>Bx. It must be their water supply or something.

-30-
You know it's drama, but it sound real good.

>When I think about it, I never met an honest person from the
>Bx. It must be their water supply or something.

>When I think about it, I never met an honest person from the
>Bx. It must be their water supply or something.

nah too young

_______________________
"Arm Leg Leg Arm Hate." c/o desus
_______________________
Divine Ruler
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__gigs__
__stuff__

+
+
+
+
+
Everything's turning out perfectly

...loved watching how Brooklyn paved the way.

"The more a country produces..the richer it is...the better it should take care of it's people. - Dr. Aleida Guevara"

@GetoutTheroom
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if for no other reason that i think it's dope. Starts off with Kool Herc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDjcHMq4p9U

--sig--
n/a

(sorry I don't have the 90min to spare at the moment but I will come back to it)

From what I've seen this is all stuff that's already been well documented. It's been well known that all the boroughs had their thing going on. Grandmaster Flowers has been acknowledged as an influence on a grip of folk. Everyone knows Herc didn't throw the first party ever. Rapping roots have been traced back to the 20s if not before then.

Now is there a grand mythology about the Bronx and the inception of hip-hop? Absolutely. But does that mean that the form which we know today did not become codified through what happened in the bronx? Nope. It's funny I stopped (just cause I don't have the time at the moment to watch the whole thing) with Fab 5 Freddy talking. Now he's from Brooklyn and I can quote him as referring to seeing everything that was happening in BK but still *needing* to see what was popping uptown cause that's where it was all coming together. Why didn't he take Ahern to Brooklyn to make Wild Style. Shit the amphitheater was in the LES.

There's the notion of All-City. Meaning that the shit was popping throughout the city. There wasn't no internet then. The DJs were the internet. Folk had to travel. If the buzz was hot, that's where people were going to be. That's how folk became Grandmasters, by earning that All-City reputation. But then there was just buzz. The buzz was uptown. It was a hub. It all still came together in the bronx. And everyone then knew it. Again going back to Fab, who was in part responsible for spreading the gospel outside of the culture, he was sending everyone to the Bronx. If the rest of the movie does something to dispute that let me know.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

its really well done to me, as someone who only has a cursory knowledge of late 70's early 80's hip hop and its roots,


this seems to tie the disco/party scene of the 70's to the early hip hop sound of the 80's

also the fact that it includes this evolution of the MC and the technological side of djing it is very interesting


there is some talk about this guy first and that but it doesnt seem to be anythign other than this guy was doing it in this year then so and so came next


i guess it seemed more historical


ya i take that back couple those dudes seem a little heated lol

the early 70s scene is not well-known outside the area

hip hop history is told to death, and I've seen so much of it since moving to NY and messing with the older hip hop crowd

but a lot of this stuff is brand new to my ears

Flowers is a sidenote so many times, good to see him as a foundational focal point and a to hear a fuller description of the pre-Flash Disco scene

on a bx vs. everybody else argument.

wright brothers were born in ohio. they flew the plane in NC. NC claims 'first in flight'. ohio still mad about that shit.

i'm not gonna get my full hip hop academic on, but i thought that it was well known that hip hop had many antecedents:

-- disco culture, dj culture (ie, personality jocks -- shit, that was even the subtitle of king tim III, which was on wax before rapper's delight),
-- jamaican sound system / sound clash culture,
-- african lyrical and oratorical culture (mythic stagger lee swag and trickster tales, toasting, scatting, call and response preaching)

i don't think that cats who big up the bronx argue that queens or bklyn was on some polka shit. i think that the boroughs, parts of LI, and new jersey was all on some proto-hip hop shit.

bx creationists are positing that it took that evolutionary leap from proto-hip hop to the current form around that time, and with those well known cats as pioneers.

again, as imcvspl pointed out, fab five freddy is cited by everyone as being at ground zero, and he was taking ahearn an nem to the bx. now, he coulda took 'em to fantasia and 127 park... to be fair, we should ask him. was it the confluence of the other elements (in particular the art scene -- i need someone with history on the origins of writing to weigh in on that) that led to the perception, at least, of the bx as an epicenter?

like i said, i've heard numerous rappers big up many of the cats in those videos. kool keith mentions the disco twins and the D1's turntables.

i ain't a bx apologist, i just don't like unnecessary conflict. it is at least possible that everything in this documentary was true AND hip hop, as we know it, was still born (or 'codified' as imcvspl said, which i like) in the bx. there coulda been labor pains all over the city, but the water broke and the baby came out in bx.


peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
** i move away from the mic to breathe in

These dudes from Brooklyn and Queens where doing exactly what the Bronx claimed to have been doing at least 7 years before Herc and them came on the scene. Dudes from the Bx revised the history in their favor in the media.

Fab 5 Freddy was into the downtown art scene in SOHO where Bronx acts like Flash and the Furious 5 was doing performances. The true pioneers in BK and QU wasn't really fucking with that scene. They played the parks, community centers and block parties

So if you a Black kid from Brooklyn and you're in the mix with some Black dudes from the Bronx and some White dude with a camera says he wants shoot these guys in their natural element, you're gonna roll the dudes you're mixing it up with.

Shit when I was in my early 20's You would have sworn I was from Boston or Philly because I was partying in those two cities all the time. I'm a born and raised Flatbush head, but I got friends as far as ATL I used to party with.

Freddy being a mover and shaker he is probably did the same thing. Puffy did that too. He was from Harlem but he was in DC and B'More heavy.

>These dudes from Brooklyn and Queens where doing exactly what
>the Bronx claimed to have been doing at least 7 years before
>Herc and them came on the scene. Dudes from the Bx revised the
>history in their favor in the media.

now we got to apply scientific methods to this shit.

where was herc on the timeline. (actually, i know when the herculoids cartoon came out, and that was the name of his crew, although they coulda been older than that).

what are the bx creationists citing as the seminal traits of hip hop which originated in the boogie down?

-- scratching and cutting? haven't heard anyone dispute flash (theodore discovered it and flash made it an artform)

-- bboying? having crews who rushed the 'floor' when break beats was played? i can see that arguably happening any and everywhere there was a party

-- extending the breaks? i don't know. i could see this happening anywhere. and djs learn from each other. plus you could have parallel evolution. at its simplest, you could just play doubles of one jam back to back. (i used to do that w/ rodney franklin's 'The Groove' on pause tapes because of how the beat would drop, and because that was such a dope song and it was only like 3min long). anyone could really lay claim to that. same with the eclecticism of the playlists, which many of the djs in the documentary laid claim to

-- emceeing in its present form. everyone knows that rapping originated from the dj doing his thing to hype the crowd, and then the call and response. but when it crossed over from that to the actual routines (in the early days, w/ the harmonizing, and multiple crew members rhyming to the beat)... that is unique enough that it could be traced to a particular spot, or ground zero type crew.


>Fab 5 Freddy was into the downtown art scene in SOHO where
>Bronx acts like Flash and the Furious 5 was doing
>performances.

point taken.

The true pioneers in BK and QU wasn't really
>fucking with that scene. They played the parks, community
>centers and block parties

not necessarily the soho shit, but if one considers the presence of all the elements as a precondition or even signifier for the birth of hip hop, maybe that would be the basis of singling out the bronx.

>
>So if you a Black kid from Brooklyn and you're in the mix with
>some Black dudes from the Bronx and some White dude with a
>camera says he wants shoot these guys in their natural
>element, you're gonna roll the dudes you're mixing it up
>with.
>
>Shit when I was in my early 20's You would have sworn I was
>from Boston or Philly because I was partying in those two
>cities all the time. I'm a born and raised Flatbush head, but
>I got friends as far as ATL I used to party with.

likewise. wherever nj transit went, till i got a car.

>
>Freddy being a mover and shaker he is probably did the same
>thing. Puffy did that too. He was from Harlem but he was in DC
>and B'More heavy.

well, puff was in dc b/c he went to howard for a semester, and made a name, and made bank throwing parties. i was at maryland. LOT of cats from up the way was at schools in the area, between howard, umcp, morgan, etc. so you could make a name doing your thing down there, and your rep would spread back to wherever you was from. like dudes i knew that first started djing parties down there and ended up doing clubs back home.

peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
** i move away from the mic to breathe in

I'm sorry your high school crush got scooped up by Bronx dude, but you're doing waayyyyy too much.

Again everyone will say that the seeds of hip-hop were happening all over the city. ALL OVER THE CITY!! Shit one of the biggest early dissemenators of the culture was the World Famous Supreme Team out of Jersey. You gonna dismiss them too because McClauren scooped helped them score a hit record?

What you're trying to do is attribute the birth of hip-hop to isolated things which the folk in the documentary are claiming they did first. But the first person to do it is not what birthed it. Even at the point when Herc through his party it wasn't a complete thing, it was still just forming, but that was a documentable event that was important in the wave of what was happening.

Graffiti was a big player in the whole thing, because the graf artists were traveling both virtually via there art and literally (to go all city) before the DJ's. They were the ones that were able to see how the shit was starting to pop off all over the city and start connecting the dots. Once there started being the venues catering to the emerging culture, the DJ's (and with them the MC's and b-boys) started traveling.

Fab wasn't a soho sociallite, he was a teenage graf artist from brooklyn who was hip to the underground railroad that connected the burgeoning culture in the city. Shit Fab himself was a bridge to the jazz culture via Max Roach. He talks about the scene in brooklyn and how all those early DJ's around there were influencing him. But he talks about the buzz of the scene uptown, and how he had to peep that out for himself. There were parties happening all over the place but there were bonafide events happening in the bronx. And because of the state of teh borough at the time it was happening in a more concentrated fashion.

But again I'll say it. There was no person or persons responsible for the birth of hip-hop, because it was cultural. To birth the cultural you need more than just some singular aspects, you need the culmination of them all.

If you were to ask me the event that allowed for that to happen it wasn't Herc or anything before that. Everything before that was proto. What really brought it all together if you ask me wasn't until 1977. July 13th to be exact, which was the day of the blackout. During the blackout folks started looting, and one of the targets were sound system equipment and spray paint. Caz said, before that there were handfuls of crews, but after that there were hundreds. That created the critical mass to really keep the sway of all the proto stuff that was happening alive to become this thing that we call hip-hop.

Coincidentally I dedicated a mix to that earlier this year - http://shocklee.com/2014/01/ultimate-break-beats-the-canon-concrete-sound-system/

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

fab5freddy's understanding od what culture was/is was limited. what he did know is that cultures tend to have a complex musical expression, art and dance. in an effort to give this movement legitimacy the whole cultural presentation was made. but when's the last time you heard of anyone talk about the 4 elements of any culture besides "hip-hop?

the whole thing is a reach. no anthropologist signs off on it. certain agents of this "culture" are the only ones that benefit from keeping the myths alive.

for graff to have even been an element (based on the prevailing theory) it would have needed to have begun in the bronx or at least in nyc. the early graff heads were listening to pink floyd and more closely associated with skaters.

if you are still on that bx ish you need to watch the piece again.

I'm pretty much acknowledging everything yall are trying to posit but putting it in a context for a broader picture.

>fab5freddy's understanding od what culture was/is was
>limited.

tangent: i'm on record in these boards (well the lesson) of questioning whether hip-hop was/is actually a culture. I carefully worded my previous post to not say it was but rather that it was 'cultural'.

>what he did know is that cultures tend to have a
>complex musical expression, art and dance.

from my perspective those are things that make cultures they are just the things that can come out of a culture. and it's part of the reason that i say hip-hop isn't a culture because while you can attribute those things to it, a lot of the other key signifiers (which are more important) are harder to pin down in a hip-hop context (example being food, though playing da there's ways to argue that one).

>in an effort to
>give this movement legitimacy the whole cultural presentation
>was made. but when's the last time you heard of anyone talk
>about the 4 elements of any culture besides "hip-hop?

don't disagree with you. but this thing that hip-hop is even if its not a culture in and of itself can still be codified by the activities of these 'elements' and their evolution within the cultural environment of new york city from the late sixties to the mid to late seventies.

>the whole thing is a reach. no anthropologist signs off on it.

I gives a fuck about anthropologists.

>certain agents of this "culture" are the only ones that
>benefit from keeping the myths alive.

"man once you get that publicity..." LOL!!! yall trying to expose fab for the fraud he played in the movie. its laughable. because it's very clear that even he understood that. what isn't clear is how you can deny that without that we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

>for graff to have even been an element (based on the
>prevailing theory) it would have needed to have begun in the
>bronx or at least in nyc. the early graff heads were listening
>to pink floyd and more closely associated with skaters.

Talk about a fucking reach. Yes there was a huge rock/punk side to graf, that's how Fab got into the Soho scene in the first place. No the first graf artist wasn't a 'hip-hop' head. But did you ever see teh fucking trains in the late 70's and 80's? Like I'm not even talking in person, just like peeping them out. Shit was hip-hop expression, from quoting the phrases from the parties, to presenting the looks coming out of them.

Taking it a step further, hip-hop was listening to Pink Floyd and a bunch of other shit. That was part of the culture. It was a culture of appropriation which is the thing which links all of those elements together. They were all art forms which were appropriating from outside of the culture as an expression of what was happening inside of it.

>if you are still on that bx ish you need to watch the piece
>again.

If you're still on that BX bashing shit you need a perspective beyond one documentary.

Again I'm not denying the inception of hip-hop as a myth. Clearly it is, but it being one does not create a need for denying the work that was done in the BX. Because no matter how you try to spin it, if it wasn't for the Bronx, this rap shit probably never would be going on... PERIOD. Not because it birthed any singular thing, but because it kept pushing to make sure the shit stuck around.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

The point isn't really to bash the Bronx or discredit their contributions, but to tell a side of hip hop history that has been denied or dismissed.

If it wasn't for those Brooklyn and Queens DJs and MC's NONE of this hip hop music shit would exist PERIOD!

The fact that the pioneers from the Bx omitted this very important information is a lie in it's self because they took the rightful credit from those that were doing it long before them.

The myth of the Bronx starting it all has been commercialized in newspapers, magazines, books, television and film for decades and false idols like Bam, Herc and Flash and even Brooklyn's own Fab 5 Freddy benefited off retelling the Bronx fable.

In the end of it all, hip hop will always be a NYC claim, but to omit, discredit and deny Grandmaster Flowers as the true Father of all this is not only morally corrupt, but criminal.

Later for arguing with a Bronx dude in denial, I gotta get ready to clock out and catch the iron horse back to hip hop's true birthplace:
Brooklyn.

that's what you're missing. These cats have been known and acknowledged prior to this doc.

And since we're acknowledging, you are Pete aren't you?

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

Or show me where GW Theodore spoke about The Disco Twins. And no I'm not whoever you think I am.

it was mentioned briefly when they were talking about not being able to cue records and not having mixers.

whoever did that first created the aesthetic of hip-hop music as we know it.

to me, that's always been the genesis of the form. the singular feature that made it no longer funk or disco.

how much the Bronx does or does not get credit for that innovation is crucial to know.

-30-
You know it's drama, but it sound real good.

and needle drops an shit. did you ever see the youtube video w/ qtip basically looping a beat on one turntable w/ just needle drops? it was pretty insane.

>it was mentioned briefly when they were talking about not
>being able to cue records and not having mixers.
>
>whoever did that first created the aesthetic of hip-hop music
>as we know it.

i still kinda distinguish between club and hip hop deejaying, although clearly there was not so much of a distinction in the early days. people was just playing jams. in the wake of frankie knuckles passing, its even more important to point out the paradise garage as named among the clubs where some of these pioneer park djs were either in attendance, or spinning.

>to me, that's always been the genesis of the form. the
>singular feature that made it no longer funk or disco.

as a house music head, i don't know if i concur. unless i'm mistaking your definition. if we just talking about extending the break and transitioning to a new song, i'd say the club djs were doing that, too. and often with the same records (i love the soundtrack to this documentary).

honing in on the 'beat breaks' and eschewing large parts of a song for just its percussive or rhythmic or funky elements, i'd agree, is hip hop.

>
>how much the Bronx does or does not get credit for that
>innovation is crucial to know.

yeah. and i'd have to hear tapes for that. herc is bigged up for his sound system which, sounds like, had at least rivals in the disco twins and them other cats in queens and bk.

flash (really grand wizard theodore) is credited w/ the 'invention' of scratching. he also is credited with modifying a disco mixer with a pot (potentiometer) fader to create the first slide fader, allowing djs to gradually bring one sound source's level up in relation to another as opposed to just clicking between the two.

i've seen that cited in numerous places and attested to by flash and have never heard that disputed. but i was blowed by the reports of one of the dudes in the documentary basically creating the first mixer.

as a side note, when i wanted to create a school program based around using hip hop, this was something i was thinking of emphasizing. the pioneers of this art form, used to rummage through radio shack and basically do science projects on their own time.




peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
** i move away from the mic to breathe in

>honing in on the 'beat breaks' and eschewing large parts of a
>song for just its percussive or rhythmic or funky elements,
>i'd agree, is hip hop.

percussive breaks. i just wasn't being specific. that's where it becomes a genre, though. the decision to distill the funky drums is the revolution that makes the music a post-funk art form. WHO DID THAT FIRST?

>as a side note, when i wanted to create a school program based
>around using hip hop, this was something i was thinking of
>emphasizing. the pioneers of this art form, used to rummage
>through radio shack and basically do science projects on their
>own time.

this is the most important shit, though. the process and the mechanics of the craft. i hate how most academic approaches to hip-hop don't take the artistic process seriously and jump straight into the sociopolitical shit.

-30-
You know it's drama, but it sound real good.

what put the Bronx on the map. You had graffiti, break dancing, djs, and to some degree the emceeing all in at one spot


that's what probably did it..

From what I gather so far in this documentary (not done yet) it that it's more focused on what brought about/initiated/inspired those key elements in hip hop


my opinion of course, I'm not a hip hop historian.. but you definitely make make a point in the case of Fab Five Freddy approaching Charlie Ahearn..


@silentintellect

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streetlights, but stealing tweeters. that's hood genius.


peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

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hot to def

I wanted to dig even deeper after watching this and have been checking out a lot of interviews and clips from all the players. I came across what looks like a summit from maybe the late 90's that had EVERYONE there together, Herc, Pete DJ Jones, Flash, Bam, Hollywood etc.

Here is Pete's part:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6QcSajLWzc

Herc (1&2)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cotg9a1gfI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ug1coadxNs8

Hollywood (1&2)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1v6Lod_n81w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm-6OvFqal8

Here's a separate interview with Grandmaster Flowers reppin' disco hard:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7-8k6oiLO0

Pete DJ Jones does say that he extended breaks in 1969:

http://www.thafoundation.com/pete.htm

So if that is true it does sort of refute Herc as the first but then Pete himself in the first clip above says Herc took to the next level what he was doing. But then here Herc says he wasn't even familiar with Jones until 1975:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJkojOSppUE

It can get confusing because no one ever seems to really break it down but from watching and reading this stuff and a bunch of others I get the gist that what separates Herc and the Bronx from Jones and Hollywood and Flowers etc is that Herc played for and represented more of what a purist b-boy stereotype is now (younger, more rough, anti-commercial) whereas Jones and Hollywood played to the older crowds in the clubs (as opposed to the parks) who were more bourgeois and liked radio records etc. In fact it could almost be said that the never ending underground vs commercial battle started here and in this case the undergound won.

When it comes to emceeing Caz gives direct credit to Herc and Coke La Rock for introducing him to rap. Besides possibly some of Hollywood's chants it sounds like La Rock is pretty much undisputed when it comes to being the first hip hop MC, things then developed from there where Caz says: "The microphone was just used for making announcements, like when the next party was gonna be, or people's moms would come to the party looking for them, and you have to announce it on the mic. Different DJs started embellishing what they were saying. I would make an announcement this way, and somebody would hear that and they add a little bit to it. I'd hear it again and take it a little step further 'til it turned from lines to sentences to paragraphs to verses to rhymes."

In that Herc interview with Davey D above when Herc is asked who the first MC was that was the equivalent of what we know as a rapper today he said Melle Mel without hesitation. Intriguingly he noted that what Melle Mel did was take influence from Herc and La Rock but that him and Flash "organized" all the disparate things they were doing and that was the lift that shaped hip hop into it's more modern day equivalent.

Patrick

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hqi-_g894ss

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

Yeah, that's a good video. And I just read this, which is pretty much the definitive Coke La Rock interview (for some reason you have to change the background colour to read it)

http://www.thafoundation.com/coke.htm

He's quite the character, a long but fascinating read.

Patrick

good lessons in this piece.


peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

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