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>You see, we tend not to like when black filmmakers go "outside
>the box" and create work that is out of the norm,
>unconventional, or obtuse.
Which black filmmakers are you talking about besides Spike? And who is this phantom "we" that do not like them? Basically, what black-directed movies are you talking about and who are the critics that are bashing them. Shouldn't be too hard to answer.
>This is retarded because we routinely pardon, if not outright
>laud, similar work from white filmakers, all the time.
>
>That is why Spike Lee's most respected works, all fabulous
>films, are all films that hit their issues SQUARELY on the
>nose -- 'Do The Right Thing', 'Malcom X' and a host of others.
>Spike Lee started to suffer with the critics the second his
>films started to push the envelope, the second he tried to
>experiment a little bit, which is a natural progression for
>any artist.
Again -- this "we" that is routinely pardoning white directors -- I don't know who that is. You're going to have to name names.
And just because the critics don't get Spike has nothing to do with many of the posters in this thread. A lot of people (myself included) are in here saying they love Spike's whole body of work, but they're going to call a spade a spade and say SHM was a bad film. So don't argue with racist critics, argue with the OKPs posting in this thread.
>Among his most inconsistently and poorly reviewed films are:
>
>'Get on the Bus' -- A film that is a metaphor for black
>manhood, where every instrument and individual is symbollic in
>some fashion. This was relatively unprecedented for black
>filmmakers and especially for Spike Lee, and so critics pasted
>it. This is despite the fact that the film is well...fucking
>brilliant.
Haven't seen it, fully intend to. I'll watch anything Spike makes because I honestly think he's probably the greatest filmmaker of the last 20 years.
>'Summer of Sam' - In my top 5 Spike Lee joints ever.
>Absolutely brilliant. Problem was, white people and their
>black friends don't like the idea of Spike Lee, Mr."Race movie
>director" actually directing a movie where race is not the
>centerpiece of the film....it bugged them.
Again, haven't seen it, but everyone I've ever talked to said it was great. And I thought "25th Hour" was amazing, and the best picture of the year when it came out, so it's not like I'm getting upset when Spike isn't railing on race issues.
>And others in this brand of lame-o criticisms, criticisms that
>are completely unfair, given that no one says anything similar
>when Spielberg makes his periodic piles of shit(see:Minority
>Report, AI, The Flinstones...many others).
>
>When Spielberg and company make bad films...we simply say:
>"Steven, you made a bad film."
I think Spielberg is one of the most overrated directors in the history of director-dom. Private Ryan and Schindler's List were good, but not that good -- nowhere near Spike's films, in my book.
And just because the majority of Americans have horrible taste in film and fall all over themselves for a happy ending doesn't mean that the posters in this thread do. Again, who are you talking to? Mainstream white critics or the actual posters in this thread?
>When Spike makes a film that we don't like, not only do we
>say:
>"Spike, you made a bad film"
>
>We say:
>"Spike...what are you trying to do?....Spike has lost
>it....."
I've never said this, and I haven't seen this expressed once in this thread in regards to SHM. Everyone is saying that this film was bad for any number of reasons. Nobody is saying "Spike lost it." They're just saying that no director hits a home run every time out, and Spike struck out with SHM.
>This explains the 'Bamboozled' debacle.
>
>Though 'Bamboozled' attacked its race issues head on, it did
>so in a decidely unconvential matter...awkward plot, awkward
>development and storyline. I dug it, thought it was cool and
>profound in its own way.
>
>White people, their friends, and toms said:
>
>"who does Spike think he is?"
>
>"That was too offbeat for me"
What white people are you referring to? I'm white, and this might be my second favorite Spike film after Do The Right Thing. Every white person I know and who I've recommended it to enjoyed it as well. My DVD copy has gotten plenty of play in my town. Again, who are you attacking, mainstream white critics or the posters in this thread?
>This again, despite the fact that we not only pardon, but
>outright laud and dickride Jim Jaramusch, Richard
>Linklater(who I like), Quentin Tarantino, the cat who directs
>those trainwreck bad movies that all y'all love like
>'Happiness' and 'Palindromes(both of those movies fucking
>suck, thank you very much). '
Well -- here I can't say too much for the posters in this thread, but I think Jim Jarmusch is criminally overrated and I have yet to solve what the appeal in any of his films is. Richard Linklater is interesting, but he's no Spike Lee. QT makes some good popcorn movies. And I hate Todd Solondz' movies with a hatred only reserved for a select group of truly deserving people.
>Take Jaramusch and a film like...'Ghost Dog'. I thought it was
>dope. Its sort of cultish. Lots of people, many of them white,
>dug it. Problem is, if Spike Lee directed 'Ghost Dog', put out
>the exact same film, the same people who liked it would say:
>
>"What was Spike's point?"
>
>"What was Spike trying to do?"
>
>"Spike over-stepped his boundaries with this one"
This is pure conjecture. Pure hyperbole. It means nothing. But to play along, I'll tell you what I'd say if Spike made that movie, "Goddamn, it was slow, boring, visually unappealing, intentionally esoteric so indy kids could jock it, and a complete waste of an otherwise interesting character." That's because that's exactly what I said when Jim Jarmusch made it.
>Let *ANY* black filmmaker make a film like...say...'Life
>Aquatic'. We'd bitch and moan about how the film was too
>offbeat and esoteric.
>
>Let the Hughes Brothers have done 'A History of
>Violence'....it would have gotten none of the praise. It would
>been called, at best a "brave, but misguided attempt by the
>Hughes Brothers" instead of a film generating Oscar
>buzz(strange because it fucking sucks and was really weird, in
>a non cool way).
Again, pure conjecture. I can't say you're wrong, but you can't say you're right. You're just making stuff up here. Do better.
>My problem with 'Black and White' was that well...it really
>wasn't very good.
This is all I've ever heard about the film. Actually, I usually hear much stronger word against among those few who bother to watch it. I haven't bothered to watch it due to overwhelming bad word of mouth coming back to me. So what the fuck is your point? As the other poster already pointed out, to say it was "universally praised" is just ridiculous. You're going to need a better example.
>'She Hate Me' is unconventional. 'SHM' is obtuse. 'SHM' is
>different. Not standard. unusual plotline. Ridden with social
>commentaries and messages. Sexaully suggestive.
And I can stomach all of these things if I feel that they're incorporated into a GOOD movie (For example Bamboozled or He Got Game). The only thing I liked about the film was the ideas behind it, but they weren't developed or supported well enough for me to really get into them. The entertainment of the ethical debate -- sexuality v. business ethics -- got old after about 15 minutes, because the film didn't do enough to complicate them. I wanted it to succeed, but it just didn't.
>I don't quite see a solution to the problem I'm pointing out,
>as long as white people don't like black people. As long as
>those white people have a following of black people who tries
>to act like them(like a lot of negro film critics, and guys
>with Okayplayer.com accounts), this will continue.
>
>Its a damn shame really, because black fillmakers and writers
>should be able to be different and obtuse just like white
>filmmakers. I fear they'll never get the chance.
I fear you're making a straw man and railing on that instead of the actual debate that's occuring in this thread. Here -- I'll agree that the majority of white America, that the majority of asshole film critics, and a majority of yahoos working in Hollywood might fall prey to your criticism -- they're racist, dumb, short-sighted, and have difficulty look past the color of the skin of the director. They won't let black filmmakers experiment.
But what the fuck does that have to do with the debate going on in this thread? Or the fact that many people, who are otherwise Spike's fans and supporters, didn't like She Hate Me? If you want to argue the film's merits, you're going to have to argue about the film and not the racism of middle America.
You liked it -- cool. I'm glad the film succeeded for someone. But don't try and say everyone who didn't enjoy the film is a racist. That's just fucking dumb.
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