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Olu
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Mon May-02-05 12:02 AM

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"Greta article on race and comics (swipe)"


  

          

I got this from Dwayne Mcduffie's message board

http://dailyburn.blogspot.com/2005/04/give-me-nazi-hero-dammit.html

Give me a Nazi hero, dammit
Finally, the paper on black male superheroes is over. Once again, I've proven what a bastard I am in comparison to other students. Unlike my classmates, who by and large will be busy the night before the paper is due finding subtly HUMUNGOUS fonts and testing whether or not the professor will notice that their paper is triple-spaced, not only did I decrease the font, but I formatted it single-spaced in order to get under the maximum seven pages. Here's to hoping my professor admires my hard work rather than resenting the comparative thick paper she has to read.

I settled on the title "Badass Heroes: Black Men in Superhero Comics." Basically, my thesis was that black superheroes represent a safe harbor to fans and creators for ultraviolence and hypersexuality. In other words, you can't have Spider-Man or Superman assfuck a retired superheroine because they need to remain the moral beacons they've always been. Apparently, however, there is a demand among fandon for retired-heroine-assfucking, so someone needs to do it. Since Luke Cage is black, and is therefore already regarded as being ultraviolent and hypersexual, no problem. Just another day at work for the HERO FOR HIRE!

One thing I wanted to mention but just didn't have time to was the MAX series. Well, I did mention U.S. War Machine and Cage, but I didn't mention the relative absence of black superheroes in mainstream Marvel vs. the number of ultraviolent black superheroes in the MAX books. One minute, Black Panther is the only non-white hero to be found, and suddenly MAX comes out, promises to be grittier and dirtier, and subsequently Blade, War Machine, Cage, and Supreme Power's Nighthawk get center stage (on a sidenote, I never read enough X-books to despise Chuck Austen's work: I read the first three issues of U.S. War Machine in preparation for this paper and my mind changed pretty fucking fast).

Supreme Power was something I definitely wanted to talk about a lot more. I did mention Nighthawk as an example of how black heroes tend to be more violent, and I also mentioned the Blur as an example of how black heroes tend to be less altruistic (remember, he only reveals his powers to the world when he's spurred to action by a pair of booking agents). But what I really wanted to talk about was the idea of Nighthawk as a bigoted superhero.

I think the idea of an overtly bigoted superhero has promise, and it's something that hasn't been explored a lot (outside of Watchmen). Racial supremacists can be quite extreme people obviously, and the idea that it's perfectly acceptable to wear funny clothes and beat up criminals can only be defined as, likewise, an extremist view. The idea of a bigot and a crimefighter finding a home in one body is not only feasible, not only inevitable, but pretty fucking likely.

What bothers me is that in a society where whites are the dominant group, where most racial prejudice and its ill and sometimes violent effects are perpetrated by whites upon racial minorities, and in a medium--superhero comics--where most of the leading characters are white men, we choose to look at the idea of bigotry...

...in a black man.

On one hand, I understand why it's done that way. Nighthawk, the bigot, is black because we wouldn't tolerate a white bigot superhero (at least not an overtly bigoted one), because our thin PC values tell us we shouldn't feel sympathetic for such a character, and if we did feel sympathy for the character, that would mean there was a problem with us.

Newsflash: there IS a problem with us.

I don't like admitting what I'm about to admit, but here it goes.

For anyone who's managed to catch the film American History X, you know the genius of the film. You probably don't admit it, as I'm about to (not because I'm any more courageous than you, but because I'm an argumentative asshole and I want to prove my point). It has nothing to do with the non-shock of the ultimate fate of Ed Norton's younger brother. You knew it was going to happen as soon as I did. It isn't because of any self-righteous message found in the story, and it isn't because you find it in any way revealing about the skinhead subculture.

The genius of the film lies in one brief scene. Ed Norton's character and his skinhead compatriots place a bet with a group of young black men at a basketball court. One game. The skinheads win, the black guys leave the court for good. The black guys win, the skinheads abandon it. The skinheads eventually win. They jump up and down, give a big group hug, and the whole thing is accompanied with some "yay we won" type music stuff.

And when you see it, if you're white, you cheer for them.

I did.

I cheered because I've been programmed to think that blacks have conspired to (paraphrasing the words of Bill Nunn's character in Canadian Bacon) "slowly take over every single sport." Blacks are dribbling as soon as they pop free of the womb, or so we're led to believe. So, cheering for the skinheads doesn't feel that bad. It feels like they're giving us back some of our manhood. It feels like they're winning one for the home team. God help me, it feels like they're breaking down racial barriers instead of building them.

That's what makes the film so disturbing, that and the times you listen to Ed Norton's eloquently hateful tirades and find yourself nodding. It isn't the jail rape or the murder or anything else that turns your stomach when you watch it: it's the fact that they're just showing you a fucking mirror, whether or not you want to admit it. It's not as simple as "he's racist, but I'm not." It's just not that fucking simple. It's not that--forgive me--black and white. We're all a bunch of racist bastards because that's who we've been programmed to be. Of course YOU are too much of an INDIVIDUAL to succumb to society's programming, but the rest of us just have to suffer it like the stupid sheep we are.

Of course if you believe that, and you have no problem with the only overtly bigoted superhero of note being a black man, and you have no problem with James Rhodes telling Nick Fury in U.S. War Machine that he failed to MURDER a criminal because he was a black man, while you would similarly reject such portrayals of white superheroes, then your programming is pretty fucking naked, because it means the only racial bias you are willing to accept exists is that which can be found in minorities.

So, give me a fucking nazi hero so I can see what I am, so it can turn my stomach, and I can do something to change it. Don't give me more black superheroes with "Badass Motherfucker" wallets. There are currently only two black male superheroes--Firestorm and Black Panther--with their own titles at DC and Marvel, and really thank God for that. Take all the Blades and Bishops and Nighthawks and Deathloks and Spawns and flush them down the toilet. Or, better yet, make them white, and make the traditional supermen black, and give the white fans of comicdom something in the mirror worth looking at.

http://www.last.fm/user/Olu/
http://ghanageek.wordpress.com/

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
RE: thanks
May 02nd 2005
1
who wrote this?
May 02nd 2005
2
As far as I can tell
May 02nd 2005
3
      how do you feel about the revitalization of Luke Cage?
May 02nd 2005
4
           Mixed feelings
May 02nd 2005
5
           i hear you...
May 02nd 2005
6
           RE: i hear you...
May 02nd 2005
7
           Bendis did that too
May 02nd 2005
12
           for real?
May 03rd 2005
19
                LMAO!
May 03rd 2005
56
           buy up to issue #50, read 50 then go back and read the rest...
May 03rd 2005
18
           oh yeah?
May 03rd 2005
20
                if you want me to give you a run down of what's going on...
May 03rd 2005
64
                     haha i'll give it a go on my own first
May 04th 2005
67
           Azzarello's a problem for me
May 03rd 2005
35
                Like I said, it feels a lot like the same mindset that created Cage to b...
May 03rd 2005
46
                     I feel you...
May 03rd 2005
47
                          I'm still picking up back issues
May 03rd 2005
54
           the language in 100 Bullets used to really bother me too...
May 02nd 2005
9
                RE: the language in 100 Bullets used to really bother me too...
May 03rd 2005
15
                Azzerelo pays as much attention to his black and latino characters....
May 03rd 2005
21
                     true
May 03rd 2005
53
                LOL
May 03rd 2005
22
                     hardly, dude seems like a mouse...
May 03rd 2005
63
           He would also throw a fit..
May 02nd 2005
14
                RE: He would also throw a fit..
May 03rd 2005
23
                     He's ever said publicly
May 03rd 2005
26
                          personally, i always thought he called himself 'Jim'
May 03rd 2005
27
                               RE: personally, i always thought he called himself 'Jim'
May 03rd 2005
31
                                    yeah, it's been a while since i went to his site
May 03rd 2005
32
                                    RE: yeah, it's been a while since i went to his site
May 03rd 2005
33
                                         link?
May 03rd 2005
41
                                              here you go
May 03rd 2005
42
                                                   this is fantastic...THANKS
May 03rd 2005
57
                                                   check out his rants on black popular culture
May 03rd 2005
58
                                                        Likewise.
May 03rd 2005
59
                                                   where can I get the Priest entire run of Black Panther fo Cheap?
May 06th 2005
80
                                                        The first year of Black panther is out on TPB
May 07th 2005
81
                                    nevermind...
May 03rd 2005
65
Another cool article, this time from Nalo Hopkinson's blog
May 02nd 2005
8
nice read...thank you
May 02nd 2005
10
Its not that simple
May 03rd 2005
16
      oh I agree totally
May 03rd 2005
17
           The easiest way to fix that
May 03rd 2005
45
                very true
May 03rd 2005
49
                     RE: very true
May 03rd 2005
50
                          Devin Grayson too n/m
May 03rd 2005
51
                               Devin Grayson's a woman?
May 03rd 2005
52
good points
May 02nd 2005
11
Interesting
May 02nd 2005
13
me and my friend made a comic about 12 years ago
May 03rd 2005
24
      That could maybe get a pass with a black writer
May 03rd 2005
29
           they'd have to put my face in the corner of the cover
May 03rd 2005
30
                haha, "DISCLAIMER"
May 03rd 2005
36
                i won't take too much credit for the forward thinking, though
May 03rd 2005
38
                     see? outsiders ARE good for the industry
May 03rd 2005
40
                          true, very true
May 03rd 2005
43
                               hmm... what do you think about the Batman: War on Crime book?
May 05th 2005
74
                                    i've never even heard of it
May 06th 2005
77
                                         Batman's own version of the war on drugs
May 06th 2005
78
                And just wait until the mainstream press finds out about it
May 03rd 2005
39
                     you can't BUY publicity like that!
May 03rd 2005
44
                     almost as good as an Oprah Book Club recommendation
May 03rd 2005
48
another interesting (if a bit academic) article
May 03rd 2005
25
Good piece
May 03rd 2005
55
what's a nubian?
May 03rd 2005
28
That's why in my book , "White Hating Coon", you don't see none of that
May 03rd 2005
34
      can't wait for the movie
May 03rd 2005
37
Damn good Article
May 03rd 2005
60
Speaking of race and comics...
May 03rd 2005
61
Byrne is an idiot
May 03rd 2005
62
but ti so upsetting to see one of the greats turn into the...
May 03rd 2005
66
i fucking LOVE John Byrne!
May 04th 2005
68
      RE: i fucking LOVE John Byrne!
May 04th 2005
69
           LOL
May 04th 2005
70
X-men
May 05th 2005
71
i've always found the whole mutant/civil rights metaphor
May 05th 2005
72
interesting take, but the symptoms aren't unique to X-Men
May 05th 2005
73
      No one is claiming that X-men is unique
May 05th 2005
75
My take on it
May 05th 2005
76
      they have touched on that a bit actually
May 06th 2005
79

Toothpick
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Mon May-02-05 12:17 AM

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1. "RE: thanks"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

i would have loved to read his actual essay.

peace.

----------------------------------------------

http://fivedeadlyeverythings.wordpress.com
bamf.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Mon May-02-05 07:36 AM

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2. "who wrote this?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

pretty good essay... and i have to admit that i like the fact it's written by a white guy

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Olu
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Mon May-02-05 12:54 PM

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3. "As far as I can tell"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

He's just some guy who reads lots of comics and reviews them for a website.
I'm also really happy that this came from a white comic fan. Lots of black fans and creators have made similar complaints but this will be a little harder for people to ignore, I hope.

http://www.last.fm/user/Olu/
http://ghanageek.wordpress.com/

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Mon May-02-05 01:03 PM

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4. "how do you feel about the revitalization of Luke Cage?"
In response to Reply # 3
Mon May-02-05 01:03 PM by AFKAP_of_Darkness

  

          

i dunno... i liked Azzarello's Cage series, even though Luke didn't have much of a personality in it. maybe it's because i'm such a Richard Corben junkie, though. i remember Chris Priest throwing a fit over it, though.

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Olu
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Mon May-02-05 01:42 PM

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5. "Mixed feelings"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

I have been avoiding reading Azarello's cage ever since it was announced. Mostly because I remember a bunch of white fanboys talking about how he was perfect for the job because he could actually write 'black' people as opposed to characters like Priest's panther, who apparently sounded 'white' to them. That's also a large part of the reason why I never got into '100 Bullets'.
The only place I've read Power Man recently has been in the new Avengers. On one hand, I'm happy to see the yellow shirt, headband and 'sweet christmas' are gone. On the other hand, I don't see how the mindset behind his current image, i.e. popular culture's depiction of black men, is any different from the mindset behind his original image

http://www.last.fm/user/Olu/
http://ghanageek.wordpress.com/

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Mon May-02-05 01:52 PM

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6. "i hear you..."
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

>I have been avoiding reading Azarello's cage ever since it
>was announced. Mostly because I remember a bunch of white
>fanboys talking about how he was perfect for the job because
>he could actually write 'black' people as opposed to
>characters like Priest's panther, who apparently sounded
>'white' to them.

yeah, i was out of the fandom scene during that period but i remember reading about fanboys saying things like that. i think that’s the reason that Priest was so mad about it… apparently, someone (it might have been a fan or even a fellow professional) told him that the new Cage series was so great because Luke actually looked and sounded like “a real ghetto black guy” or something

That's also a large part of the reason why I
>never got into '100 Bullets'.

i bought 100 Bullets every month from the beginning up until issue #47 or so. i only read like the first 10 issues. recently i’ve been trying to catch up on it, but i still don’t completely get it… i only bought it in the first place because in the first year it was heavily hyped by the likes of Ennis, Ellis and Siekenwicsz, but i’ve never really connected with it in that way. i believe what kept me was Eduardo Risso’s artwork, though

i have to say that Azzarello CAN write “urban” dialogue better than most other writers (white AND black) even though he makes it a bit too “dialect”-heavy sometimes. one thing i found funny about him is the way that they took a kind of 50 Cent marketing strategy for him early in his career. like, “this dude is REAL! he’s a white comic book writer, but he’s actually been to JAIL!”

>The only place I've read Power Man recently has been in the
>new Avengers. On one hand, I'm happy to see the yellow shirt,
>headband and 'sweet christmas' are gone. On the other hand, I
>don't see how the mindset behind his current image, i.e.
>popular culture's depiction of black men, is any different
>from the mindset behind his original image

that’s what i never quite understood: people complaining about the stereotypical update of characters like Cage as if they weren’t stereotypical from jump street. i mean, i clearly remember being kinda embarrassed by Power Man even back in the 80s (i was embarrassed by Iron Fist, too… mainly his costume. but make no mistake: it was one of my favorite books in the 80s, and i wasn’t even feeling Marvel much at all during that decade. i just thought Jim Owlsley’s shit was so great…)

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Olu
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Mon May-02-05 03:34 PM

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7. "RE: i hear you..."
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

>yeah, i was out of the fandom scene during that period but i
>remember reading about fanboys saying things like that. i
>think that’s the reason that Priest was so mad about it…
>apparently, someone (it might have been a fan or even a fellow
>professional) told him that the new Cage series was so great
>because Luke actually looked and sounded like “a real ghetto
>black guy” or something

I have a feeling that pat ofPriest's issue is also the fact that back when he was writing Power Man and Iron Fist he used to hear shit from fans and Marvel staffers for not making Cage 'black' enough because he would actually speak proper english most of the time

> one thing i found
>funny about him is the way that they took a kind of 50 Cent
>marketing strategy for him early in his career. like, “this
>dude is REAL! he’s a white comic book writer, but he’s
>actually been to JAIL!”

Yeah, I always found the irony of that more than a little funny. The sad thing is that I'm sure there are young black writers out there who could write more balanced black characters but fanboys would rather have their white guy who 'knows black people'. Incidentally, Priest can write pretty decent 'urban' dialogue when he wants to. check out his work in The Crew and the 'Black and White' and 'Initiation' story arcs in Black Panther.

>that’s what i never quite understood: people complaining about
>the stereotypical update of characters like Cage as if they
>weren’t stereotypical from jump street.

Probably the best parody of this I ever saw was a character Dwayne McDuffie created in Icon called Buck Wild who was almost an exact duplicate of Power man. In Icon though, everything about him was treated as a joke and then he was killed off and his funeral was used to satirize both Marvel and DC's treatment of black heroes.

http://www.last.fm/user/Olu/
http://ghanageek.wordpress.com/

  

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KangolLove
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Mon May-02-05 11:26 PM

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12. "Bendis did that too"
In response to Reply # 6


          

>one thing i found
>funny about him is the way that they took a kind of 50 Cent
>marketing strategy for him early in his career. like, “this
>dude is REAL! he’s a white comic book writer, but he’s
>actually been to JAIL!”

He said he was in the city doing research for his writing & someone put a gun to his head. He was like "top that, Frank Miller!" I actually thought he might be kind of hard-edged until I saw how goofy he was on that Daredevil DVD.

And am I the only one who liked Power Man & Iron Fist's absurd costumes?

__________________________________________

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Tue May-03-05 06:43 AM

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19. "for real?"
In response to Reply # 12
Tue May-03-05 06:43 AM by AFKAP_of_Darkness

  

          

>He said he was in the city doing research for his writing &
>someone put a gun to his head. He was like "top that, Frank
>Miller!"

hahaha... something about that picture is just so funny to me. "research"?

that being said, i think that Bendis writes some pretty decent "urban" dialogue and i like his portrayal of Luke Cage a lot, even though he's still a bit too much of a Sam Jackson-style badass

I actually thought he might be kind of hard-edged
>until I saw how goofy he was on that Daredevil DVD.

i always thought he was a tough guy too... he looks a bit like a lightweight Michael Chiklis to me, but i heard he has a funny voice

>And am I the only one who liked Power Man & Iron Fist's absurd
>costumes?

maaaaan... i can appreciate the absurdity of them in hindsight, but at the time... i thought that shit was "gay" even before i really knew what gay was.

i mean, by the 80s Power Man just looked outdated to me, though i'm sure that shit was cool as hell in 1973. but then again, i was used to black characters looking a bit outdated... like Misty Knight with her big-ass afro in 1987 and all that.

Iron Fist's costume i actually thought was pretty cool... it was just those damn yellow slippers that messed me up.

which kinda reminds me of an exchange from a Daredevil comic a while back:

Spider-Man: I don't have to deal with this. I have a hot wife at home.
Luke Cage: Does he really have a hot wife?
Iron Fist: I'd always assumed he was gay.
Daredevil: Says the guy who wears little yellow booties.
Iron Fist: They were a GIFT.
Daredevil: From a guy.

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Olu
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Tue May-03-05 01:40 PM

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56. "LMAO!"
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

someone needed to say that.

While we're talking about Iron Fist, Am I the only person who finds it strange that white people in comics constantly keep getting powers from non-white sources (Iron Fist, Dr. Fate, Dr. Strange, Bwana Beast etc.) but you never hear of the reverse happening? where's the asian guy gaining powers from asgard or the african whose powers come from the Greek gods? Its only fair

http://www.last.fm/user/Olu/
http://ghanageek.wordpress.com/

  

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Mr Mech
Member since Jul 02nd 2002
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Tue May-03-05 06:39 AM

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18. "buy up to issue #50, read 50 then go back and read the rest..."
In response to Reply # 6


          

It will ruin the big revelation in #50 but it clarifies everything that's going on in the book up until that point.

Mech

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Tue May-03-05 06:44 AM

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20. "oh yeah?"
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

let's hope so... because i am confused as hell with that shit

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Mr Mech
Member since Jul 02nd 2002
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Tue May-03-05 07:48 PM

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64. "if you want me to give you a run down of what's going on..."
In response to Reply # 20


          

...meaning I'll tell you why you can't trace the murders, then I could inbox you.

Mech

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Wed May-04-05 06:47 AM

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67. "haha i'll give it a go on my own first"
In response to Reply # 64


  

          

then if i still can't figure it out, i'll ask for help!

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Eff That
Member since Mar 26th 2003
1069 posts
Tue May-03-05 10:49 AM

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35. "Azzarello's a problem for me"
In response to Reply # 6


  

          


>yeah, i was out of the fandom scene during that period but i
>remember reading about fanboys saying things like that. i
>think that’s the reason that Priest was so mad about it…
>apparently, someone (it might have been a fan or even a fellow
>professional) told him that the new Cage series was so great
>because Luke actually looked and sounded like “a real ghetto
>black guy” or something


Azzarello thinks this too. There was some noise made about someone applauding how he wrote Cage as "more black" He said "Yeah, I tried" or something like that. So he believes the gold front wearing, stripper boning Cage is authentic black. That's why I have a tough time buying his stuff. Separating artist from art and all that, I guess.

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Olu
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46. "Like I said, it feels a lot like the same mindset that created Cage to b..."
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

Back then, blacksploitation movies were providing the most visible archetype of the hyperviolent, hypersexual black male so thats what Cage was based on. Now its hip hop so he's merely been updated to the new definition of violent, dumb black manhood. I'm supposed to be grateful for that?

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http://ghanageek.wordpress.com/

  

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Eff That
Member since Mar 26th 2003
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Tue May-03-05 12:31 PM

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47. "I feel you..."
In response to Reply # 46


  

          

I was just surprised that Azzarello was so open about it. It's like he thinks he's presenting journalistic accuracy.

By the way, I love your avatar. I remember trying to save up to get some ridiculous foil variant cover of Static #1 back in '93. Never shelled out my $35 or whatever it was. I copped the whole run about a year or two back and still read them from time to time.

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Olu
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54. "I'm still picking up back issues"
In response to Reply # 47


  

          

of all the old milestone comics. eventually I'll probably have all of them. For now, I'm concentrating on Static and Hardware

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Mr Mech
Member since Jul 02nd 2002
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Mon May-02-05 10:23 PM

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9. "the language in 100 Bullets used to really bother me too..."
In response to Reply # 5


          

I really liked the stories and characters but I couldn't shake the feeling that Azzerello was "playing" at being black and latino. I eventually forced myself to push by that and just enjoy the story for what it was and admit that the language came off fine and complimented the story and rounded out the characters; then I read a forward to one of the TPBs by Jim Lee. His excessive praise for Azzerello's use of slang and language in his forward really annoyed me. It made me see that regardless of what the writer actually accomplishes it's what the readers think that can be most problematic. There's a difference between saying "Our Song" is a great film about black American inner city life that has a white director and saying "Hey look, white people CAN write black characters". What's problematic is that there are people that now believe the door is open to something that really isn't; what's problematic is that readers think it's now okay to dabble freely in taboos disregarding the thin line between creativity, offensive material and masturbating.

Mech

PS - Azzerello is a pretty cool and laid back guy in person. I wanted to quiz him about the use of slang in his book but for whatever reason I think it would have made him depressed.

  

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Olu
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15. "RE: the language in 100 Bullets used to really bother me too..."
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

>There's
>a difference between saying "Our Song" is a great film about
>black American inner city life that has a white director and
>saying "Hey look, white people CAN write black characters".

That's a huge part of my problem with Azarello's work. He's being used as an excuse for the lack of diversity in comics because, after all, why hire actual black writers and deal with the diversity of images they would produce when you have a white guy who can write MTV style black people perfectly. That's not a slight on his talent, by the way, I'm sure '100 bullets' didn't get to be critically acclaimed purely because of the way he writes black people. However, I wonder if we'll ever get the equivalent of a 'Static' style character from him.

http://www.last.fm/user/Olu/
http://ghanageek.wordpress.com/

  

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Mr Mech
Member since Jul 02nd 2002
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21. "Azzerelo pays as much attention to his black and latino characters...."
In response to Reply # 15


          

...as much as he does any of his other characters but it's all over the top noir so none of the characters are really fleshed out and no social issues are really tackled and I'm not exclusively thinking of social issues about race.

Mech

  

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Olu
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53. "true"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

which is part of why its so dangerous to have him as the 'white voice of black america'. There will be writers who create well rounded white characters. That happens very rarely for black characters. The last thing we need is for comic companies to feel that MTV depictions of black characters are enough

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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22. "LOL"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          


>I wanted to quiz him about the use of slang in his book but
>for whatever reason I think it would have made him depressed.

so is he really a "tough guy" though?

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Mr Mech
Member since Jul 02nd 2002
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63. "hardly, dude seems like a mouse..."
In response to Reply # 22


          

Honestly, I think if you pushed him dude would snap on you. He's real researved; I was asking him all these questions and it was like pulling teeth to get a real answer. When he started talking, he had some interesting things to say about writing though, nothing in depth but he explained the process of working with an artist and what it's like working through email with Risso; they live several states away from each other. I'll tell you something real interesting I noticed; all us fan boys were way more interested in Azzerello than we were in Risso. A few years ago it was the artist who was king and now it's the writer.

Mech

  

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KangolLove
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14. "He would also throw a fit.."
In response to Reply # 4


          

at you calling him Chris.

>i'm such a Richard Corben junkie, though. i remember Chris
>Priest throwing a fit over it, though.

__________________________________________

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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23. "RE: He would also throw a fit.."
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

>at you calling him Chris.

ha. i do not doubt that.

why did he decide to adopt that name anyway?

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Eff That
Member since Mar 26th 2003
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Tue May-03-05 07:40 AM

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26. "He's ever said publicly"
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

Though his birth name is Christopher James Owsley. He adopted 'Jim' to emulate Jim Shooter when he went to Marvel.

So I guess that combined with the fact that he is a (baptist) priest...

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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27. "personally, i always thought he called himself 'Jim'"
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

in order to sound "white" LOL

i dunno... "Jim Owlsley" always sounded like such a white guy's name to me. and they NEVER showed any pictures of the guy... even in the occasional Bullpen Bulletins where they would feature drawings of the staff, they would put a picture of Galactus or something to represent Owlsley. it was like he was really invested in not being outed as a black man.

but yeah, i know Jim Shooter was a mentor of sorts to him

>So I guess that combined with the fact that he is a (baptist)
>priest...

yeah, i thought that might have something to do with it too (of course, Baptists don't actually have "priests" but, you know...)

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Eff That
Member since Mar 26th 2003
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Tue May-03-05 10:27 AM

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31. "RE: personally, i always thought he called himself 'Jim'"
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

>i dunno... "Jim Owlsley" always sounded like such a white
>guy's name to me. and they NEVER showed any pictures of the
>guy... even in the occasional Bullpen Bulletins where they
>would feature drawings of the staff, they would put a picture
>of Galactus or something to represent Owlsley. it was like he
>was really invested in not being outed as a black man.

That could be... but it seems, from Priest's perspective, that any attempt would have been completely futile. He's got a lot of anecdotal essays on his website about the treatment that he and the other black staffers got. But I don't know the guy so he may well have been trying to hide. He seems too disillusioned for that today, but he was editing Spider-Man when he was like 17 years old so if there's an excuse to be naive, I guess that's it.


>
>but yeah, i know Jim Shooter was a mentor of sorts to him
>

Yeah, Shooter gets a bad rap, but I wasn't reading comics during his reign so I have no idea what that's about. To hear Priest tell it, the guy was great. He and Larry Hama (Priest's other mentor)seem like great guys. Priest even mentions how Hama used to come into the Marvel offices strapped with a loaded Uzi or some ridiculous weapon like that on a daily basis.

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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32. "yeah, it's been a while since i went to his site"
In response to Reply # 31


  

          

but i remember reading his essays about how most of the Bullpenners were generally cool, but that once in a while you'd get someone making some cute "jig" comments.

the part that surprised me was how he talked about Lary Hama pulling him aside and telling him not to let the white man take advantage of him. it never occurred to me that he was an Asian for some reason... back when he was writing the ever-popular GI Joe books, he was portrayed as this gung-ho, gun-toting Vietname vet... i just expected him to be a gigantic white boy with a blond flat-top!

>Yeah, Shooter gets a bad rap, but I wasn't reading comics
>during his reign so I have no idea what that's about.

well... i mean, Shooter did some tremendous things for Marvel, but at the same time he perpetrated some gross abuses of his power. he was a bit of a big-mouthed dictator... he set the stage for someone like Bill Jemas.

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Eff That
Member since Mar 26th 2003
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Tue May-03-05 10:43 AM

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33. "RE: yeah, it's been a while since i went to his site"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

>but i remember reading his essays about how most of the
>Bullpenners were generally cool, but that once in a while
>you'd get someone making some cute "jig" comments.

And they were rubbing his (priest's) head for good luck and shit. Disgusting.


>
>the part that surprised me was how he talked about Lary Hama
>pulling him aside and telling him not to let the white man
>take advantage of him. it never occurred to me that he was an
>Asian for some reason... back when he was writing the
>ever-popular GI Joe books, he was portrayed as this gung-ho,
>gun-toting Vietname vet... i just expected him to be a
>gigantic white boy with a blond flat-top!

Again, I never read much of Hama's work, but all the stories Priest tells makes him seem like my ideal boss. Sticking it to whitey and packing heat? That's the kinda man i'd work for.


>
>>Yeah, Shooter gets a bad rap, but I wasn't reading comics
>>during his reign so I have no idea what that's about.
>
>well... i mean, Shooter did some tremendous things for Marvel,
>but at the same time he perpetrated some gross abuses of his
>power. he was a bit of a big-mouthed dictator... he set the
>stage for someone like Bill Jemas.


Oh... gotcha.

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buckshot defunct
Member since May 02nd 2003
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Tue May-03-05 11:59 AM

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41. "link?"
In response to Reply # 33


  

          



  

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Olu
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42. "here you go"
In response to Reply # 41


  

          

http://phonogram.us/comics/adventures/chips2.htm

http://www.last.fm/user/Olu/
http://ghanageek.wordpress.com/

  

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buckshot defunct
Member since May 02nd 2003
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57. "this is fantastic...THANKS"
In response to Reply # 42


  

          

I'm gonna be here for a while.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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58. "check out his rants on black popular culture"
In response to Reply # 57


  

          

i posted "The Ostracized Negro" in the Lesson a few years ago

i don't agree with every point he makes, but the general tenor of his thinking is not too dissimilar to mine

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Olu
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59. "Likewise."
In response to Reply # 58


  

          

He loses me in a couple of places, like when he claims that popular black culture is intrinsically hostile to white people. Otherwise a lot of what he says about he music and about what is wrong with churches in this day and age strikes me as very true.

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k_orr
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80. "where can I get the Priest entire run of Black Panther fo Cheap?"
In response to Reply # 42


  

          

TPB?
Issues?

  

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Olu
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81. "The first year of Black panther is out on TPB"
In response to Reply # 80


  

          

this
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0785107894/qid=1115486092/sr=8-3/ref=pd_csp_3/102-5921650-8464926?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
and this
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0785108297/qid=1115486092/sr=8-2/ref=pd_csp_2/102-5921650-8464926?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

http://www.last.fm/user/Olu/
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Mr Mech
Member since Jul 02nd 2002
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Tue May-03-05 07:54 PM

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65. "nevermind..."
In response to Reply # 31
Tue May-03-05 07:57 PM by Mr Mech

          

Mech

  

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Olu
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8. "Another cool article, this time from Nalo Hopkinson's blog"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://www.popmatters.com/columns/poole/050427.shtml

Superman in the Cotton Fields: Comics in Black and White, Mostly White


by W. Scott Poole

The tiny ship hurtles through lonely space, carrying in its hold the last son of a doomed world. The child inside represents the last gasp of a dying civilization. Landing by chance on earth, the ship bearing the small boy crash lands in rural America. Kindly rural folk adopt the young alien and raise him as a human being, inculcating values of service and citizenship.

Sound familiar? It should. But we're not in Kansas anymore. The above does not describe the nativity of Superman, the last son of Krypton and one of DC comic's flagship characters. Instead, its the origin story of the African American superhero Icon, one of the creations of the "Milestone revolution". Milestone comics appeared in the early 1990s, with black-owned and black created titles but dependant on industry giant DC comics as its distributor. The creators of this new line hoped to take advantage of that era's boom in comics sales while also shaping a new reading of African American characters. Black superheroes like Icon, Static, and Hardware would avoid the unremitting political and social messages that previous indie black owned companies had attempted. Meanwhile, Milestone tried to add complexity to the one-dimensional stereotypes of black characters that made occasional appearances in the books produced by Marvel and DC.

The story of Icon, clearly borrowing heavily from the Superman mythos, provides an example of Milestone's work. The galactic refugee's spaceship crashed not in Kansas in the 20th century but in the cotton fields of the American South in the 1830s. A slave woman (named, with a shout out to the Exodus story, Miriam) finds the child whose ship alters his appearance to look exactly like the first life form encountered. The future Icon receives the name Augustus Freeman and what he learns in the cotton fields is indeed "values of service and citizenship." Freeman does not use his powers to lead a slave revolt. Instead he becomes a kind of superpowered Uncle Tom. Immortal, he lives into the 20th century to become a corporate lawyer in "Dakota City". He uses his superpowers for the very first time to defend his condominium against some African American teenagers who break into his building. One of these teens, after "reforming", a young woman named Raquel Ervin, convinces him to use his powers for good and together they form an uneasy alliance, a W.E.B Du Bois and a superpowered Booker T. Washington.

Milestone folded in 1996. Jeffrey Brown, the historian and best interpreter of Milestone, attributes at least part of the company's failure to the way that white readers, distributors, and retailers had been culturally conditioned to understand Milestone's black heroes. Brown notes that Milestone comics always sold well . . . when they made it to the stands. Individual comic stores owners, however, ordered very few copies. One Toronto store owner simply explained that he didn't "have a lot of black customers," thus assuming that only black people have an interest in black people while simultaneously failing to ask the question why he had so few African American patrons .

White supremacy structures cultural production and distribution in the United States. In the previous instalment of Catfish Row I looked at how the portrayal, and frequent failure to portray, the American South in comics grows from an unwillingness by writers, artists, editors and the corporations who own their work to deal with the problem of race. Indeed, as I noted, even when African American characters appear in connection with the southern experience, they are introduced into alternative universes where the central social question of the American 20th century could easily be "white-washed".

The tendency to integrate the black experience into larger white narratives appears in some of the earliest efforts to introduce black characters into the comics world. In the 1940s, the only black character to appear in Marvel's line was literally named "White-Wash" and looked more like a young white boy in black face rather than an actual African American character. Appearing in Marvel's Young Allies title, White-Wash provided comic relief; a white supremacist minstrel fantasy in, ironically, a book about young heroes who used their powers to battle the Nazi menace. By the 1970s, of course, black characters in comics had achieved some personality beyond the "plantation darkey" model. In DC comics Black Lightening and Marvel's Luke Cage, there was at least no bowing and scrapping. There was, however, the heavy burden of "ghetto" stereotype. In one infamous story arc in the Captain America series, the red, white and blue-bedecked superhero's black "sidekick", the Falcon, is portrayed as a pimped-out street hustler before being "rescued" by super-liberal Captain America.

Despite some important narrative differences Black Panther, the creation of comics genius and white liberal Jack Kirby, shows similar tendencies. The Black Panther is both a superhero and the King of an advanced African nation called Wakanda. T'Challa, Black Panther's princely identity, uses his physical skills, technological prowess and powers granted him by sacred African traditions to fight evil. The Panther, significantly, first appeared in 1966 in a "team-up" with the lily white Fantastic Four, the Brady Bunch of the comics genre. Two years later, he became a supporting character to yet another all-white team, in Avengers number 52.

While the name "Black Panther" certainly came with politically loaded connotations in the late 1960s, the character in the pages of Marvel comics had little to no ideological content. In fact, the villainy fought by the Panther often had a supernatural edge, echoing numerous white representations of African people in the "jungle adventure" genre. In fact, the character did not receive a solo title until 1973 when he began appearing in a series known as "Jungle Adventures", where he fought various stone age monsters, gods, aliens and robots among vine-covered ruins of ancient African civilizations. When Jack Kirby again drew the Black Panther for another solo title in 1977, the trend of a depoliticizing Marvel's only "major" black character continued. In the first story arc, T'Challa fought otherworldly enemies, and am African princess, for possession of a mystical brass frog. This is hardly biting political satire.

Perhaps Marvel should receive some credit for making T'Challa an African monarch of a African nation. Wakanda, at first glance, might seem to represent the ultimate fantasy of the black power movement, the hopes of black nationalist thinkers like Henry McNeal Turner and Marcus Garvey come to life on the comics page. Unfortunately, it may have acted as a way to diffuse the political content of the character. By placing the most well-known black character in the Marvel Universe in Africa, and in an imaginary Africa at that, the books lost even the ability to comment on race relations in the United States and the powers that structured those relations. Though certainly viewed by some as evidence of the liberalism of his creators, Black Panther through the 1970s simply represented how racism shapes creative production in American society.

Describing a society as a racist society does not describe a collectivity of individually prejudiced people. It does not mean a social order where individuals with various prejudices against black people or any other group predominate. A racist society is one in which significant political and social capital rests in white hands, even if that society gives lip service and official tribute to the ideals of "tolerance" and "diversity".

Racist societies have their own internal logic that often coincides with the logic of capital. The loan officers who decides against the small business loan to a black entrepreneur not, in his mind, because she is black but because of the "risk" involved in investing in that neighborhood. The real estate brokers and buyers who advertise and seek out "desirable neighborhoods"; code for lily white neighborhoods. Hollywood's envious look at the money made by Melvin Van Peebles Sweet Sweetback's Baadasss Song and the decision to create the "blaxploitation" genre (after handing Peeble's work an absurd X rating for its gritty depiction of life in a community destroyed by economic injustice and police brutality). These action films, that did appeal to African American people because of their strong black characters and villainous whites, ironically also traded in stereotype, and became the new minstrel shows for some whites who enjoyed the genre. These films disappeared once attendance dropped off in black communities tired of the same old formulae. Who could gainsay the logic of profit and loss?

In an earlier Catfish Row reflecting on African Americans in NASCAR, I described green, rather than black and white, as the real reason why there are no prominent African American drivers, why corporate sponsors at a certain point in the sport's history actually helped to push talented black drivers off the oval tracks. Melvin Vann Pebbles put the experience of black people in popular culture in a much more sophisticated fashion. In the documentary film Classified X, Pebbles says that Americans might be primarily concerned about the color of money but, he reminds us, when green money is held by white hands guided by white minds twisted by centuries of racial fantasy and anxiety, the distribution of capital, economic and social, will run along channels dug by white supremacy. White dominated corporations will hold "diversity day" while closing off advancement to more than a handful of black workers. Comics will include black characters while subsuming them in white-dominated narratives.

There are, however, perhaps reasons to be hopeful. In fact, more recent incarnations of the Black Panther certainly give reason for optimism. The Black Panther reappeared with his own title in 2000. Written by Christopher Priest, the tone of irony that had thankfully made its way into comics by the late '80s finally appeared in story arcs involving black characters. In Priest's classic "Enemy of the State" storyline (Black Panther, Vol. 2 #6-12), the Panther becomes a symbol of a larger African American community besieged by racism, both in the form of white supremacist violence and the patronizing concern of the alleged "good guys". Priest even spoofs the old comics convention of bringing in black characters as exotic supporting cast for white heroes. The Avengers, instead, make a guest appearance in the Panther's world where their strong-arm do-goodism makes them appear, in Priest's words, as "borderline fascists".

The newest incarnation of the Black Panther seems even more promising, in part because the focus is not on T'Challa but on the African nation he leads and symbolizes. Although too early to tell if it has any enduring value, the new Panther series has been heavily publicized by Marvel and yet contains much more political content than most of their line. US foreign policy, and the imperialist policies of the white world more generally, receive plenty of attention, partially as seen through the eyes of the United States' first African American Secretary of State. If you believe comics are escapist, this new series certainly will change your mind.

Certainly the creations of the world of comics enjoy worldwide recognition with the successful X-Men franchise, the hugely popular Spider-Man series, and the next planned "summer blockbuster", the Fantastic Four. The genre has even had its failures in the last year, the Punisher and Elektra, and yet Hollywood shows no sign of giving up on the operatic, special effects drenched superhero epic.

Yet these are lily-white celebrations of superpower and heroism. I doubt we can expect a film about the Black Panther anytime soon and, if he gets his own flick, I fear he'll be sent on a "jungle adventure" fighting aliens and maybe a giant spider or two. In the marginal art form of comics, African American representations are changing. In the world of mass entertainment, where the heroes born on the comics page become gargantuan licensing franchises, little has changed. At the local Cineplex, white America can still enjoy its fantasies in a safe place where no panther's stalk them . . .

http://www.last.fm/user/Olu/
http://ghanageek.wordpress.com/

  

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buckshot defunct
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10. "nice read...thank you"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Race in comic books really is quite the can of worms. In a way I almost feel like the publishers are in a 'damned if you do/damned if you don't' situation in regards to race. On the rare occasions they actually do publish the exploits of black super heroes, they seem to think they're being so progressive and cutting edge for doing so, that they just keep pushing the envelope that much farther into the extreme. Like hey check out Nighthawk, he's totally black! Crazy huh? Well you know what else? He's hyper-violent and really doesn't like white people all that much! OOOH! (Nighthawk isn't the best example here, but hopefully my point is still getting through) Like these cats really think they're breaking down walls here.

I mean, comics seem to equate sex and violence with the "new" and "fresh". And it's not limited to just black characters. Very few characters created (or re-vamped) since 1986 have the wholesome Superman vibe going on, regardless of their race. So while I think the guy who wrote this essay is on point, there are a few other factors to consider.

It does irk me to see Black Panther and Cage just looked at as "the black superheroes" and not just " superheroes" It's kind of like if you're a black guy who works in an all white office. You're going to be known as "the black guy." You could be 9 feet tall and have an arm sticking out of your forehead, you'd still be "the black guy"

Personally I don't want a character's race thrown in my face. Race shouldn't be a gimmick. It doesn't have to be a marketing tool. I don't want black characters or white characters. I just want characters that feel like real, three dimensional people.

  

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Olu
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16. "Its not that simple"
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

>I mean, comics seem to equate sex and violence with the "new"
>and "fresh".

I'll grant you that. There has been an increasing tendency to rely on shock value instead of actual good writing in comics these days. That being said, Its possible to do sex and violence right without creating black characters who are little more than caricatures. If you want examples, check out Warren Ellis' Ocean and Gary Philips' Angeltown. Both comics with diverse casts and lots of violence (and sex in Angeltown's case)

>Personally I don't want a character's race thrown in my face.
>Race shouldn't be a gimmick. It doesn't have to be a marketing
>tool. I don't want black characters or white characters. I
>just want characters that feel like real, three dimensional
>people.

When you're dealing with black characters, sometimes race is a valid part of the story and leaving it out diminishes the character. Granted, the character should have more going for them than their blackness but this isn't a color blind world and good stories sometimes have to reflect that.

http://www.last.fm/user/Olu/
http://ghanageek.wordpress.com/

  

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buckshot defunct
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17. "oh I agree totally"
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

>When you're dealing with black characters, sometimes race is a
>valid part of the story and leaving it out diminishes the
>character. Granted, the character should have more going for
>them than their blackness but this isn't a color blind world
>and good stories sometimes have to reflect that.

When I said I didn't want race "thrown in my face" I should have been more clear. That wasn't to say I didn't want it addressed at all. It's just that in a lot of my reading experience, minority characters seem to give these little constant reminders of their ethnicity. Not in a good character development way, but in an annoying, flat, stereotypical way. I'm all for comic books tackling race issues and I'm all for race playing an integral part in a character's persona. This goes back to when I said it was sort of a "damned if you do/damned if you don't" situation. With so few minority characters they're bound to be under scrutiny. You go too far in either direction and somebody's gonna cry foul.
While the world may not be color blind, bad writing most certainly can be. There are plenty of poorly written white characters out there too, but damn at least they seem to come in variety.

  

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Olu
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45. "The easiest way to fix that"
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

would be to allow more diverse vioces to write comics. So long as the industry is dominated by white males, they will always have issues when it comes to portraying others.

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buckshot defunct
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49. "very true"
In response to Reply # 45


  

          

I'd like to see a lot more women writing in comics too. I admit I wouldn't necessarily read the stuff, but I think it'd be a good move.

  

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Olu
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50. "RE: very true"
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

>I'd like to see a lot more women writing in comics too.

Definitely. Right now the only women I know of in comics are Gail Simone and the woman writing Arana. I actually like their stuff though and even if I didn't, comics aren't going to survive as a medium without diversifying.

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Eff That
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51. "Devin Grayson too n/m"
In response to Reply # 50


  

          

.

---------------------------------------------
That's all that matters to me

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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52. "Devin Grayson's a woman?"
In response to Reply # 51


  

          

ha... i did not know that!

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DrNO
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11. "good points"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

DC should pick up Morisson's Manhattan Guardian as a regular title.

_
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http://preptimeposse.blogspot.com/

  

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KangolLove
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13. "Interesting"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I always thought it would be interesting to have a white supremacist superhero. Or even a hero who isn't a total racist, but shows indifference/mild dislike toward "those people".

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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24. "me and my friend made a comic about 12 years ago"
In response to Reply # 13
Tue May-03-05 06:53 AM by AFKAP_of_Darkness

  

          

called "Racist Legion"

it was about a group of white supremacist superheroes who were like a cross between the X-Men and the Justice League (it was also heavily "influenced" by Watchmen). and we were totally non-judgmental towards them.

i was pretty serious about it, too... i was trying to pitch it to Caliber. i think i shitcanned it when i lost interest in superhero comics. also, i knew that the sympathy shown towards Hitler in the story probably would not fly with a lot of people.

man... i forgot all about that until now. i should totally revive that shit.

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KangolLove
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29. "That could maybe get a pass with a black writer"
In response to Reply # 24


          

The publisher could say "how can it support white power? a black guy writes it!"

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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30. "they'd have to put my face in the corner of the cover"
In response to Reply # 29


  

          

like the DC bullet

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buckshot defunct
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36. "haha, "DISCLAIMER""
In response to Reply # 30


  

          

Man, for 12 years ago that's some pretty damn forward thinking. I still don't think comics would be completely ready for that. And it wouldn't be entirely the fault of the publishers either. Do you honestly think that readers would know how to handle a white racist superhero? I can just see that one flying over peoples' heads and the media just having a free for all with it. Especially if you tried to take a non-judgemental tone with it. I think too many people would take it as advocating white supremacy if it didn't take an overt moral stance against it.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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38. "i won't take too much credit for the forward thinking, though"
In response to Reply # 36
Tue May-03-05 11:46 AM by AFKAP_of_Darkness

  

          

it was my friend who brought the idea to me, and he wasn't even a real comics head (not a serious one, anyway. he did, however, smoke LOTS of weed). he just wanted to make this story about a group of racist superheroes. at first i was like "okay... they're the villains, right? but we're just gonna see the story from their point of view? like when Lex Luthor and The Joker had their own series?"

he's like, "nope... they're the HEROES."

eventally, i got into it. i had just recently read Watchmen (in its entirety) and it put some ideas in my head for how this idea could be explored.

and i got even more ideas when i came to America and realized that as a young black man of the hip-hop persuasion, if there really WERE beautiful, super-powered (usually white) beings maintaining the status quo it's pretty unlikely that people like me would identify with them.

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buckshot defunct
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40. "see? outsiders ARE good for the industry"
In response to Reply # 38


  

          

>it was my friend who brought the idea to me, and he wasn't
>even a real comics head
>he's like, "nope... they're the HEROES."

We need more non-comic reading potheads bringing fresh ideas like this to the table. Of course, meeting those deadlines might prove troublesome.

>and i got even more ideas when i came to America and realized
>that as a young black man of the hip-hop persuasion, if there
>really WERE beautiful, super-powered (usually white) beings
>maintaining the status quo it's pretty unlikely that people
>like me would identify with them.

That's very true. And like the essay in the original post said, if a guy is going to go to the extreme of dressing in spandex to fight crime, it stands to reason he'd be drawn to other extremes as well, so why not racism?

But you bring up another angle to explore, examining how these white superbeings were perceived by other cultures. Especially those "of the hip-hop persuasion" as you put it. You know what, somebody get me on the phone with DC. I wanna write an Elseworlds one-shot where Superman meets Professor Griff.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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43. "true, very true"
In response to Reply # 40


  

          


>We need more non-comic reading potheads bringing fresh ideas
>like this to the table. Of course, meeting those deadlines
>might prove troublesome.

ha!

>That's very true. And like the essay in the original post
>said, if a guy is going to go to the extreme of dressing in
>spandex to fight crime, it stands to reason he'd be drawn to
>other extremes as well, so why not racism?

oh definitely... anybody who thinks they're REALLY making the world a better placed by dressing up in the underwear and beating up purse-snatchers while the Ken Lays of the world walk free is almost definitely gonna be a racist

>But you bring up another angle to explore, examining how these
>white superbeings were perceived by other cultures. Especially
>those "of the hip-hop persuasion" as you put it. You know
>what, somebody get me on the phone with DC. I wanna write an
>Elseworlds one-shot where Superman meets Professor Griff.

LOL

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40thStreetBlack
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74. "hmm... what do you think about the Batman: War on Crime book?"
In response to Reply # 43


          

>oh definitely... anybody who thinks they're REALLY making the
>world a better placed by dressing up in the underwear and
>beating up purse-snatchers while the Ken Lays of the world
>walk free is almost definitely gonna be a racist

I haven't read it, but I read somewhere something along these lines about the inherent racism in it.


------------------------------------------------------------
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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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77. "i've never even heard of it"
In response to Reply # 74


  

          

you better believe i'm gonna go check it out now, though

what's the story on that?

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40thStreetBlack
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78. "Batman's own version of the war on drugs"
In response to Reply # 77
Fri May-06-05 03:55 PM by 40thStreetBlack

          

... and apparently it's not very far off from the real-life version. This is the article I saw:

http://www.metroactive.com/papers/metro/12.02.99/batman-9948.html

Batman in the 'Hood

Batman's war on crime looks a little too much like the real war on drugs

By Richard von Busack

GENTRIFIERS AND DRUG peddlers alike feel the wrath of Batman in Batman: War on Crime by writer Paul Dini and artist Alex Ross (DC, $9.95, 58 pages). The album-sized comic is a follow-up to last year's bestseller Superman: Peace on Earth. An artistic and financial success, Superman: Peace on Earth had sales of $7 million in the midst of the usual depressed market for comic books.

The art for Superman: Peace on Earth was auctioned off, raising $100,000 for charity. Likely, Ross' artwork for Batman: War on Crime will also raise a similar small fortune when it is auctioned off for its beneficiary: the John A. Reisenbach school in Harlem, the only nonprofit charter school in New York. (Reisenbach was a young New York ad man murdered during a robbery nine years ago; after his death, a fund was set up in his name to finance education.)

The proceeds go to a good cause, then, and it is a book from two cartoonists who work well together. And yet I can't recommend it without reservation.

In Batman: War on Crime, an African American ghetto kid named Marcus is orphaned by a robbery. Marcus' plight, of course, matches the story of Bruce Wayne--Wayne, whose parents were shot by robbers and who has been carrying out a masked mission of vengeance as Batman ever since.

Batman: War on Crime doesn't really have a villain, except for a crony of Wayne's named Randall Winters, a self-indulgent, conscienceless developer who has been hiring off-duty Gotham cops to rough up the gangstas in Marcus' neighborhood. Winters is plotting to pave over the slum with expensive condos and malls. Wayne absorbs Winters' redevelopment schemes with a few words that demonstrate our hero's iciness: "Randall has always spoken of me as a close friend, presuming on the familiarity created by our social environment."

Ross' Batman looks beef-fed, jowly and not a day under 40. Because of his size, his eyebrows and his rectitude, he looks like a dark-haired Scandinavian, a Swede. He's a huge and very cold fish. When he takes his shirt off, we see that his torso is criss-crossed with deep scars, as if he'd been flogged.

Ross handles the artistic problem of turning a cartoon real by highlighting the ordinariness of Gotham City. One scene is a rich party staged in the sterile glamour of a culture palace: it could be New York's Lincoln Center, the Kennedy Center in Washington, D.C., or L.A.'s Dorothy Chandler Pavilion --all those auditoriums that sound so grand but turn out to look so tatty.

None of the grotesque Batman villains are shown, but we get glimpses of familiar characters: a man whose one enlarged eye tells us that he might be Two-Face; a figure whose kid gloves and string tie may tip us off that he's the Joker. I wish Ross and Dini had turned to the more fanciful villains in Batman lore for this book, because when Batman goes up against the more mundane 'hood dwellers, Batman: War on Crime takes a distressing turn.

ROSS' SKILL AS a representational artist lifts Batman out of where he belongs--in a fantasy world--and places him in the real one. But that's the problem with Ross and Dini's book: its realism. When Superman decided to give the world a Christmas dinner in Peace on Earth, there was charm to the fantasy. By contrast, Batman's task is taming his city with violence.

In one scene, Batman attacks a drug lab, scattering a crowd of terrified black criminals. In the real world, yes, there are such things as all-black drug labs. In fiction, Batman might bust a drug lab up. But the unhappy collision of tragic reality and escapist fantasy makes for a racist image: a jackbooted Batman assaulting a room of studiously drawn panicking black men.

This scene of violence isn't utter fantasy, as you can learn by reading reports on the paramilitary policing in the inner cities during our war on drugs. Christian Parenti's book Lockdown America: Police and Prisons in an Age of Crisis (Verso) documents cops in SWAT teams already acting like masked vigilantes, attacking slum neighborhoods with their faces concealed under helmets and with badge numbers covered.

Dini is an artist and writer who has helped create the Batman animated series (Adventures of Batman, Adventures of Batman and Robin, and Batman Beyond) now running on the Warner Bros. network. Dini's different versions of Gotham are color-blind, and maybe that color-blindness should have been continued here. Probably the good that the sale of Ross' art will do will outweigh the troubling images. Despite these few pages showing the raid, Batman isn't a sadist. As always, he has his mystery. Here's a detective who can't solve the riddle of his own personality or ask himself if it's really possible to be a terrorist for a good cause.

The hero's endless turmoil is anticipated by a passage in Moby-Dick. Fleece, the ship's cook, lectures the sharks that follow the Pequod. Sharks are sharks, but if a shark could control itself, it would be an angel. For all angels are nothing but sharks well-governed.


------------------------------------------------------------
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KangolLove
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39. "And just wait until the mainstream press finds out about it"
In response to Reply # 30


          

Jesse Jackson's boycott will get you a spot on 60 Minutes (the Wednesday edition.)

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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44. "you can't BUY publicity like that!"
In response to Reply # 39


  

          

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buckshot defunct
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48. "almost as good as an Oprah Book Club recommendation"
In response to Reply # 39


  

          

Almost

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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25. "another interesting (if a bit academic) article"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

might be a little too long to cut and paste the whole thing so...

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2838/is_1_33/ai_54421509/pg_1

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Olu
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55. "Good piece"
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

That was actually a large part of my love of the entire milestone line, the fact that they were people who thought their way through their actions instead if just smashing everything in sight.

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shockzilla
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28. "what's a nubian?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

  

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Gemini_Two_One
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34. "That's why in my book , "White Hating Coon", you don't see none of that"
In response to Reply # 28


  

          


!sig!

Colored Heavyweight Champion of The World

16 Days till Star Wars: Revenge of The Sith

"You're not supposed to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who does it or who says it."
- Malcolm X

  

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buckshot defunct
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37. "can't wait for the movie"
In response to Reply # 34


  

          




  

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MrMajor
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60. "Damn good Article"
In response to Reply # 0


          

The buzzscope.com (formerly Popcultureshock) had just started monthly column on race and comics. There most recent one is dated for March so I hope the column didn't die when the name changed.


http://www.buzzscope.com/features.php?id=926

  

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MrMajor
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61. "Speaking of race and comics..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

From this weeks all the rage. I swear I want to give this turd a pass at times because he once made good books. But then I've never seen someone so desperate for attention and relevancy in a long time. Byrnes at it again.


http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/rage/index1.htm

Rome Is Byrning

It’s no great leap to say that John Byrne attracts a great deal of controversy, largely of his own doing. From his message board, it’s not uncommon to see him make an offensive off-the wall comment or get into a fight with another creator…

Really, it just gets old after a while. And easier to ignore.

However, this one… this one shouldn’t be ignored. Byrne’s really outdone himself this time. In a thread about the proper use of comic terminology, a user posted the following message:

Then this all brings up the question of language. Do words have inherent meanings or just those we ascribe to them? If enough pros, in addition to the fans, say "speech bubble" then why wouldn't "bubble" be just as valid as "balloon"? JB says "balloon", someone else says "bubble", and they could both be right.

To which, Byrne responds:

There are lots of people who call Black people "niggers". Are both terms "right"? You seem to have missed the rather important point that my response indicated roughly the same percentage of fans and pros use the improper terms for various elements of what we do -- but that percentage does not approach a balance. It is not that roughly half say "balloon" and half say "bubble". It is that some say "bubble" and they are wrong.

Another user states:

Um, we don't avoid using the word "nigger" because it's incorrect usage. We avoid using it because it's incredibly racist and hateful. Is there an ethnic group that's impugned when someone says "thought bubbles" instead of "thought balloons"?

Byrne again:

"Um..." in point of fact there are plenty of people who use the word "nigger" because that is the word they use, not because they imagine it has any negative racial connotations. That's precisely why I chose that word as my illustration.

Another response from the crowd:

Enough already with the casual tossing around of racist epithets!

John, you cannot possibly be that ignorant to believe that people who use racial slurs do so without any negative intent or connotation. If you do indeed believe that, I strongly encourage you to seek some counsel and educate yourself on the matter, if you don't want to take my word for it. I've only been black and lived in this country for, oh, my entire life, so I may not be aware of how things really are out there...

We spend an awful lot of time on this board dealing with the issue of respect, as it pertains to comic book characters, comic book terminology, reverence for creator's original visions, nicknames for comic book characters, etc. People tread lightly on eggshells out of fear of upsetting you and your many rules for how seriously this wonderful hobby of our should be taken, both by us within it and by those civilians outside of it. How about we extend that same measure of respect to the people who participate in this board?

We're supposed to take your word for how things should be in the industry, how characters are supposed to be treated, etc because of your years of experience. How about you extend me the same courtesy on this issue?

This isn't about political correctness, or "looking for something to be offended by." It is simply a matter of consideration and manners...

There were an infinite number of comparatives you could have chosen to illustrate your point about correct comic book terminology. The fact that you chose the one you did...why?

I think we get your point. They are balloons, not bubbles. Fine. Your comparative example sucked. Just as you ask us not to use terms that bother, offend or piss you off, I'm asking you publicly to not use racially insensitive terms and epithets on the board as well. Or is that something you would have a problem with?

Once again, Byrne replies:

Ignorance is the key, but not on my part. There are many places in this country where people to this day use "nigger" when referring to Black people because that's the word they use. They don't think of it as a racial slur. They don't think about it at all, in fact. It simply is.

This is not even considering Black people who themselves use the word. We cannot, surely, imagine that it is used in that context as a racial slur?

"Nigger" is -- like so many others -- a word with a complex etymology and an even more complex pattern of use.

And this goes on for six pages…

You know, for sheer outrage, I never thought Byrne would top his Jessica Alba and Christopher Reeve comments…

But he found a way.

This Has A “Byrned Again” Factor of One Out of Ten


  

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Olu
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62. "Byrne is an idiot"
In response to Reply # 61


  

          

I stopped paying attention to anything he had to say after I heard about the Jessica Alba comment.

http://www.last.fm/user/Olu/
http://ghanageek.wordpress.com/

  

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Mr Mech
Member since Jul 02nd 2002
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66. "but ti so upsetting to see one of the greats turn into the..."
In response to Reply # 62


          

...inappropriate uncle.

Mech

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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68. "i fucking LOVE John Byrne!"
In response to Reply # 61


  

          

just reading his posts always puts a smile on my face... he's a pompous ass, and he represents that to the end. in some odd way, i actually respect that.

but... what did he say about Jessica Alba? i must have missed that. i know about the Christopher Reeve comments...

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Eff That
Member since Mar 26th 2003
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Wed May-04-05 07:38 AM

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69. "RE: i fucking LOVE John Byrne!"
In response to Reply # 68


  

          

>but... what did he say about Jessica Alba? i must have missed
>that. i know about the Christopher Reeve comments...


He said she shouldn't be playing Sue Storm because Latin Women with blond hair look like hookers (maybe it was "whores," but you get the gist)

---------------------------------------------
That's all that matters to me

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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70. "LOL"
In response to Reply # 69


  

          

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Olu
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71. "X-men"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Mr, Major and I got into a discussion about the racial implications of the X-men over in the Ultimate X-men thread. I was hoping to find an old x-men movie review that I remember reading on Africana.com however it doesn't seem to be there anymore. However, since the topic came up, I figured I might as well talk about it.
I'll write a more detailed post after I get done with dinner but my basic premise is that the way the x-men and mutants in general are portrayed says a lot about the liberal white perception of the black power movement and other such minority struggles worldwide.
Basically, any attempt to obtain freedom that involved violence against the ruling class is automatically evil. Freedom must be earned nonviolently by 'proving' to the ruling class that we are worthy of the same rights and priviledges they have. Incidentally, they are allowed to be violent since all it means is that they are afraid of us.

Feel free to add on to this. I'll be back in about an hour

http://www.last.fm/user/Olu/
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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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72. "i've always found the whole mutant/civil rights metaphor"
In response to Reply # 71


  

          

to be kinda half-baked

i never really saw the connection the way it was presented.

here's an essay that explores that a bit more...

http://www.sequart.com/SequentialCulture03.htm

X-Men is Not an Allegory of Racial Tolerance
JULIAN DARIUS

It’s funny that it’s so resoundingly universally accepted. It’s been repeated so many times, from everyone from fans and comics professionals to scholars, that it’s become an article of faith. X-Men is about racial tolerance, right? Here are those good mutants, eternally being persecuted even after saving the world a million times, a plot threat used long, long after it makes no sense in the universe of the book -- but forget that. Forget that what we’re reading is costumed super-heroes fighting each other, just like any other comic book, for some thirty years now, in far more than that worth of issues and material, over and over, any social message totally subsumed in muscle-bound people with ridiculous powers and gorgeous women in skimpy outfits, all fighting each other in one cosmic mud rink. Yes, forget all that. The point remains, and the point is that these mutants are blacks, or any minority race, and they sadly have to hide that fact due to persecution, right?



X-Men was ... also about Communism. The key is that there is no way of knowing who is a Communist or a mutant: as an ideology, not a race, there are no outward signs.
The answer is no for many reasons. To begin with, X-Men was not just about race -- it was also about Communism. The same dynamics classic to films dealing with Communism apply here. The key is that there is no way of knowing who is a Communist or a mutant: as an ideology, not a race, there are no outward signs. Over time, the X-Men have increasingly had characters who were physically deformed from their mutation. Beast is a good example of this: in the original issues, he has beastly hair on his arms and legs, visible through his costume, but he cannot be distinguished from a large man when dressed in pants and a jacket. Similarly, the Angel has wings, but those wings were strapped down with “restraining belts” (page 17) so that, in normal clothes, there was not so much as a bulge on his back. So too with Iceman, who looked normal until he iced himself over, and Cyclops, whose visor for controlling his optical blasts were replaced with a normal-looking pair of dark glasses. The powers of Professor X, Jean Grey, and Magneto were all invisible. Yet, when Jean Grey first uses her telekinetic powers, she confesses that “All my life I’ve had to conceal this power of mine ... / now, I must admit it’s a pleasure to be able to be able to practice telekinesis openly, without fear of being discovered!” (page 9; ellipse original).



Today, in stark contrast, the Beast is blue-skinned and inhumanly beastly. Grant Morrison’s New X-Men is filled with outwardly-visible mutations, including a boy with a large beak and a person who is invisible, except for the skeleton and certain internal organs. The Communistic overtones have been shed, their role in the original formula forgotten. Only very occasionally is the idea, classic of American fears about Communism and depiction thereof, expressed that one’s lover or child could secretly be a mutant.



I do not mean to suggest that Communism should supplant racism as the dominant interpretation of the X-Men -- in fact, far from it. I merely mean to point out, before proceeding to an analysis of the racial dynamics of the X-Men, that those dynamics were originally mixed with the popular dynamics of Communism, and that combination made for a more successful book. But let us proceed to those racial dynamics.



If you’re inclined to read the X-Men themselves as racially different, the point is that their race is evil -- it is everything the racists suspect it is.
If you’re inclined to read the X-Men themselves as racially different, the point is that their race is evil -- it is everything the racists suspect it is. Look at the first issue, at the concept behind the series. It’s got Magneto, who takes over an army base “in the name of homo superior!!” (page 15). And, when you think of all the super-powered people in the world, the vast majority of them are evil. There are far more villains than heroes. This has conveniently been overlooked in the traditional interpretation of the X-Men, as if thought simply a necessity of the plot featuring good protagonists who are analogous to another race. But let’s actually analyze what’s going on here.



From the first issue, Magneto and Professor X are juxtaposed. In fact, more certain as the X-Men are the racial other, that other is split between “good” and “bad” factions. Professor X has formed the X-Men “to protect mankind from those ... from the evil mutants!” (page 11; ellipse original). When Magneto first appears, Professor X says that “the first of the evil mutants has made his appearance!” (page 16). Clearly, if we are to read the X-Men as symbolic of a minority race, the distinction between the “good” and “bad” of that minority race is greatly emphasized right from the start.



Magneto is the Black Panthers: he’s the revolutionary edge to racial politics at the time.
Seen in this light, Magneto is the Black Panthers, or how whites feared Martin Luther King and Malcolm X: he’s the revolutionary edge to racial politics at the time. He wants to seize the army bases. He wants to overthrow the order of the American government. Taking Cape Citadel is just the “first objective” (page 15) of a wider revolutionary plan. And who’s there to stop him? Who’s there to support the status quo? Who’s there to step in and help the military who are sending blacks to die in Vietnam? That’s right, the X-Men. Defenders of The Man.



It has often been a point of some humor that Stan Lee later called Magneto’s anti-X-Men squad “The Brotherhood of Evil Mutants,” but if mutants are read as analogous to blacks, Magneto’s unit should be read as “The Brotherhood of Evil Blacks.”
It has often been a point of some humor that Stan Lee later called Magneto’s anti-X-Men squad “The Brotherhood of Evil Mutants.” This has typically been seen as just another indication of Stan Lee’s confessed thoughtlessness in his writing, but it expresses the crucial dichotomy made so clear from the first issue. Indeed, if mutants are read as analogous to blacks, the predominant minority “race” in America at the time, Magneto’s unit should be read as “The Brotherhood of Evil Blacks.”



The X-Men, then, are those within that race who, out of their American “good”ness, violently oppose the more radical members of their race, those who are out to actually oppose the American government. Whereas the X-Men have no concern about the government. They do not demand representation or an end to discrimination. They do not demand anything. They simply step in to help the government put down members of their race who step out of line. Cyclops actually asks the military if the X-Men can help. His language is deferential, like a good darkie: “I respectfully request you to hold your fire for fifteen minutes while my partners and I go into action” and “You won’t regret it, sir!” (page 18, italics mine). There is no irony here, no satire in his tone. The army is played as helpless before super-powers, but only for dramatic purposes; we never get the impression that Cyclops or the X-Men have anything but the utmost respect for authority. And remember, that authority is the military wing of the dominant race.



Seen as symbolic of a racial minority, The X-Men are that conventional trope of blacks who are at least relatively happy with their “massa”s and eager to put down niggers who get out of line. Which is, after all, exactly what they do, what they were created to do, by Professor X, if not by God.
Seen as symbolic of a racial minority, The X-Men are that conventional trope of blacks who are at least relatively happy with their “massa”s and eager to put down niggers who get out of line. Which is, after all, exactly what they do, what they were created to do, by Professor X, if not by God. The establishment -- if not governmental and military -- connections of Professor X are established when he informs new recruit Jean Grey that he “was born of parents who had worked on the first A-bomb project!” (page 10).



And while the X-Men recognize that whites distrust them, they do not use words like “oppression.” Nor does Magneto. In fact, oppression of mutants does not occur in the first issue. There’s just no sign of it. So if the X-Men are blacks, blacks are distrusted and seen as “other” by the whites who dominate, but those whites don’t protest the blacks, don’t treat the blacks with derision. As a statement on race, the X-Men’s was not at all conceived as a world with whites protesting blacks or bigots protesting mutants; rather, it was conceived as a world in which the protests were being made by blacks, or mutants, and being made violently. The threat, decidedly, is not from the powers-that-be. It is from the “evil” members of the racial Other.



The X-Men were not revolutionary. In fact, they were explicitly counter-revolutionary. They were not created to fight for civil rights; rather, they were created to fight against those who did so.
The X-Men were not revolutionary. In fact, they were explicitly counter-revolutionary. They were not created to fight for civil rights; rather, they were created to fight against those who did so.



To the extent that the message is racial, that radical message was that blacks don’t have it too bad and that the “good” blacks will fight those nasty blacks who oppose the social order and the instruments of white power and authority. And this is not without precedent. None other than celebrated black Booker T. Washington argued, after the Civil War, that blacks should not demand the right to vote or compensations from whites, but should instead prove themselves valuable members of the community first, showing that they not only supported white values and structures of authority but could educate themselves and hold white jobs, acculturating to white society. It was a smart suggestion on Booker T. Washington’s part, a way of avoiding white resentment of uneducated negros being granted the right to vote. But that line of quietist thinking had, by the 1960s, become the conservative line in the wake of the growing civil rights movement.



Where mutants -- or blacks -- do get credit is in their power. But we should not imagine that an image of blacks as seriously dangerous, or even as smart, is at odds with racism. Racism of all sorts has often had this strain. The most classic example was Nazi Anti-Semitism, which saw the Jews as such a threat precisely because of their intelligence; they were not an enemy to be trifled with. Indeed, the portrayal of a racial other as a legitimate threat to the social order necessitates a certain respect for that racial other’s power, if not its values. Some racism is simply a looking-down upon another race, which may well be blundering and stupid; other forms of racism, often directed at the same targets, is heightened by a perception -- even a fear -- of another race’s power and abilities, dangerous when combined with a concern about the revolutionary values of that minority.



In The X-Men as racial allegory, blacks are indeed a serious threat to the white social order.
In The X-Men as racial allegory, blacks are indeed a serious threat to the white social order. And let us make no mistake: it is the white social order. No blacks appear in that first issue. The soldiers on the base are entirely comprised of good Aryans. Moreover, The X-Men offers us a racial allegory (of black and white) in black and white: “evil” mutants or blacks who want to take over America and “bad” mutants or blacks who will put their lives where their mouths are and fight their rebellious brothers for the very social order that cannot accept them.



The conservative, even reactionary tone to the racial message of X-Men haunts the books to this day. In the ensuing years, many protests and acts of violence on the part of whites or non-mutants have been added to reflect first the growing sympathy towards the civil rights movement and then the dominant view of blacks as oppressed, as the victims. The atmosphere of lynchings, so absent from the X-Men’s first outing, has been thoroughly added and the racial message of the book transformed, its tone quite changed with the times. This has very much been read backward upon The X-Men, the presumption being that it existed from the start, though this is thoroughly not the case. Yet the basic premise of the book, of the X-Men as counter-revolutionaries, as out to stop blacks or mutants who go too far by opposing the dominant social order, has not changed. In fact, the more white or non-mutant violence and oppression have been added to the book, the more the counter-revolutionary nature of the X-Men becomes painfully apparent, if not clearly immoral. In the wake of such violence and oppression, the topic of the X-Men’s own role is usually avoided, addressed only in the most confusing of arguments, usually boiling down to “this is not the way” to go about gaining civil rights or acceptance.



In order to give this some weight, and thus to support the X-Men’s position in the matter, especially in the wake of a changed nation in which racism is no longer publicly acceptable on a national stage and in most social situations, and in the wake of increased depiction of violence and oppression from the white or non-mutant camp, Magneto and the “evil” mutants have necessarily become more violent. It is important to note that, although people were killed in comic books at the time, including those by Marvel Comics, Magneto kills no one in his original appearance. The present incarnation of “evil” mutants oppose the status quo that discriminates against them so violently that few can agree with their tactics and thus not support the X-Men’s counter-revolutionary mission. Yet the “good” mutants almost never support mutant civil rights; there is no such noticeable peaceful movement in the comic books even today, and all attention seems to be on stopping those Black Panthers, now depicted as horrifically violent, however much in reaction to society’s now commonly depicted oppression. As a consequence of this tension, many fans side with Magneto, whose rhetoric has shifted away from a stereotype or caricature of insurgent blacks as evil even to themselves. He was created as the mutant equivalent of a white man’s image of a violent, dangerous black man out to destroy the government; today, no matter how extreme his methods, it often seems preferable to the X-Men sitting on their asses in their mansion, doing nothing of note to stop the oppression and murder of black people yet all too eager to put down the members of their own race who try to do so. It seems increasingly obvious that Professor X’s much-celebrated vision is negatively defined -- confined to stopping all visions of social change since they all involve violence. Again, no peaceful but progressive option is offered, for to do so would either make us side with the villains or undermine the very premise of the series.



I hasten to point out that the recent film, entitled simply X-Men, is a good example of all of these points.



What we need is for the X-Men to go beyond that premise as the mutant policing agency and instead stage sit-ins, peaceful protests for which they will, at least as surely today as in the 1960s, get arrested and have to spend time in jail, made all the more poignant for their ability to easy break free.


What X-Men needs to survive, at least in any intellectually respectable fashion, is for it to go beyond its narrow premise and the staunch conservatism implicit in the dynamics it has faced since its creation. What we need is a middle path. What we need is for the X-Men to go beyond that premise as the mutant policing agency and instead stage sit-ins, peaceful protests for which they will, at least as surely today as in the 1960s, get arrested and have to spend time in jail, made all the more poignant for their ability to easy break free. A kind of peaceful version of The Authority, out to change the world though through very different, and thus slower, tactics -- tactics made all the more inspiring to the world because of the restraint it requires, more than even blacks following Martin Luther King. But it’s hard to implement this in a line of twenty books a month, generating massive profit for the company. And the fans of X-Men would probably rather not see Cyclops in Birmingham jail for twenty issues, or X-Men take on more the tone of Stuck Rubber Baby than the easier dichotomy between “good” and “bad,” told with a copious dose of spandex fetishism.



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buckshot defunct
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73. "interesting take, but the symptoms aren't unique to X-Men"
In response to Reply # 72


  

          

Yeah. The 'racial allegory' aspect of X-Men even at its best always seemed pretty flimsy and superficial to me. After X2 it was both laughable and insulting when people would say "Professor X is like MLK and Magneto is like Malcolm X!" Uhh...no.

But you know, I never looked at X lore as being inherintly racist. It just always seemed to me that X-Men was a case of really big concepts being crammed into a very tiny box (or pair of tights, as it were) Stan Lee might have been trying to touch on some social issues of the day with X-Men, but let's not forget 2 important facts:

1. It's Stan Lee. No disrespect to the man because I love his works. To this day even in this post-Watchmen age, I still like to flip through a Stan Lee Spiderman yarn and just escape. The man is a legend... But Noam Chomsky he ain't. Often his reach exceeded his grasp, and I think the 'sociopolitical undertones' of X-Men illustrate that pretty well. At least he tried.

2. It's a comic book. More importantly it's a very mainstream, established super hero comic book that started in the 60's and now has spawned 2 very successful movies, a cartoon series or two, and more merchandise than could fit in the Grand Canyon. First and foremost, the 60's X-Men had to have the traditional good guys vs bad guys comic book paradigm going on. So for this guy to turn around and criticize the very first X-Men comic written in the 60's for being too 'conservative', all I can really say in rebuttal is... "Well, yeah. Duh"

I'm not defending the book's weak attempt at metaphor though. But let's try and keep things in perspective. The X-Men aren't activists, they're super heroes. Super heroes are defenders of the status quo, for better or worse.

So while X-Men says a lot about how liberal whites might have viewed/still view the civil rights movement, I'm not so sure that you couldn't find the same stuff in any other mainstream comic. For me it's always been more along the lines of the "Why doesn't Batman use all his money, resources, and intelligence to cure cancer?" or
"Why doesn't Superman end war/world hunger/racism/etc?"

I mean which comic is more offensive in its sociopolitical undertones, X-Men or Superman?

  

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Olu
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75. "No one is claiming that X-men is unique"
In response to Reply # 73


  

          

I could probably make similar complaints about most, if not all major comic titles. Hell, if this thread stays up long enough, you'll probably hear some of those complaints. Nor do I see it as explicitly racist. The way its written, however, does point to certain blind spots in those doing the writing.

The reason most people mention the MLK - Malcom dynamic as being the same as the Magneto - Xavier dynamic is because Bryan Singer said as much in several interviews and then threw in the 'By any means necessary' quote at the end of the movie

1)Stan Lee's Genius as a comic book writer isn't something anyone is disputing. Besides, most of the overt comparisons between X-men and the civil rights movement are supposed to have happened under Claremont. The general dynamic Lee introduced though, the 'good' mutants willing to wait for the ruling class to deem them equal protecting mankind from the 'evil' mutants who are willing to use violence to achieve freedom is disturbing regardless. Noone is claiming Stan lee was evil, just that he had a blind spot in this area which seems to be shared by a lot of liberal white people because I've mostly heard black comic fans talk about its problems.


2) yes its a comic book and a work of popular culture. However comic books in general have tended to be.. problematic where racial issues are concerned, hence this thread and the articles quoted in it. I'm certainly not claiming that x-men is any worse than Superman or Batman, I have issues with them too. It is, however, a title that has on occasion made covert and not-so-covert comparisons to the civil rights movement and contemporary racial issues. If it does that then its only fair that we call it on its shortcomings.

http://www.last.fm/user/Olu/
http://ghanageek.wordpress.com/

  

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MrMajor
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76. "My take on it"
In response to Reply # 71


          

First off I don't mean to imply that great Stan Lee and Jack Kirby created the X-men to be a statement on race or society whether negatively or positively. Certainly it echoes sentiments and the zeitgeist of the times but it is after all a product of its environment. I beleive the X-Men were intended to represent the 'outsider' and based on that ideology it works. Somewhere along the line the outsider-X-Men became the minority-X-Men.

To me the X-Men as a minority being written predominantly by non-minorities (older white men) speaks to the nature of how those non-minorities see real minorities, or more frightingly, how they want real minorities to be. Its always bothered me that within the X-books the only time whites, blacks, asians, hispanics or whoever, can agree is they all hate mutants. Never once are any non-whites sympathetic to these other (mutant) minorities.

If the X-Men and mutants in general are Marvel's statement of what it means to be different, racially, ethnicly, socially, whatever, then the message it sends, is that there is absolutely no hope. To me, thats nihilistic. Certainly as an African-American I realize, at least superficially, I'm better off than my father was and his father before him and so on. The message the X-men sends is, no matter what, they will hate you. You will save their lives and they will hate you. You will save their children's lives and they will hate you. You will save their world and they will hate you. Its the futility of their struggle that frustrates me. Lets not forget, we've all seen their futures too, days past, and ages of despots, not one bright future in the bunch. No hope.

Yet they will gladly risk their lives fighting more against each other than for the actual equality deserved them. Even their fights among other mutants comes down to mostly differences of ideaology. Professor X's "Lets show them they shouldn't fear us" vs. Magnetos "Lets show them why they should fear us". Its funny how non-violence only applies to the human atagonist but never against their own. The X-Men are at their most violent when they fight their own kind. Interesting.

All I'm saying is if you're going to write them as minorities at the very least get some multiple perspectives. the opportunities are there. I can't beleive not one writer has ever touched on the potential schism that could come from mutants that look human (Cyke, Jean, Prof etc.) and could "pass" vs. those that look inhuman (Kurt, Beak, Beast etc.) vs. those that are somewhere in-between (Angel, Collossus, Wolfsbane etc.). No, all mutants are comfortable with toehr mutants regardless of appearence or social status simply because they're mutants. Thats a missed opportunity, its also lazy writing. At least Astonishing is really good despite it falling into some of those same traps.

  

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40thStreetBlack
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Fri May-06-05 04:20 PM

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79. "they have touched on that a bit actually"
In response to Reply # 76
Fri May-06-05 04:20 PM by 40thStreetBlack

          

>All I'm saying is if you're going to write them as minorities
>at the very least get some multiple perspectives. the
>opportunities are there. I can't beleive not one writer has
>ever touched on the potential schism that could come from
>mutants that look human (Cyke, Jean, Prof etc.) and could
>"pass" vs. those that look inhuman (Kurt, Beak, Beast etc.)
>vs. those that are somewhere in-between (Angel, Collossus,
>Wolfsbane etc.). No, all mutants are comfortable with toehr
>mutants regardless of appearence or social status simply
>because they're mutants. Thats a missed opportunity, its also
>lazy writing.

I remember one time right after the Morlock massacre, the survivors were staying topside somewhere with the X-Men looking after them, and this one inhuman-looking mutant Masque was acting up and causing trouble so Hank tried to regulate on him (Hank was human-looking at his time), and Masque melted his face and said "now you're ugly like us, go hide underground and crawl around the sewers and see how you like it" or something to that effect. Then one of the young mutants (boom-boom I think?) stepped to Masque and made him change Hank's face back.

But yeah, that's really the only time I recall them touching on this issue like that, it's certainly a missed opportunity.

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