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Subject: "The definitive race post, used to enlighten white people:" Previous topic | Next topic
Otto
Member since Dec 19th 2002
4624 posts
Tue Jul-12-05 07:00 PM

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"The definitive race post, used to enlighten white people:"
Tue Jul-12-05 07:05 PM by Otto

  

          

Hello,

I have offended many of you with my precipitous race posts, which were, in fact, posted more so out of spite and agitation than honest curiosity and conviction.

What I see in America are two diverse groups--white and black--who at our cores, respectively, do not see eye to eye on many issues relevant to the way we perceive and relate to one another.

Myself, all I want is for this gap between our races to be eradicated--for this chasm to be mended. I would like America to be whole, so, I ask for the sake of disabusing myself or anyother okaywhiteplayer of any erroneous notions we may have:

1) What problems do you see within the black community as detrimental to your advancement.

2) What is the most inhibiting of these?

3) What can be done to fix it.

I don't want any UNITED SNAKES OF AMERIKKKA replies, nor any other gratuitous childishness. But I would like open participation from even the most pessimistic players -- just eloquent and well thought out participation.

I want honest, open, and sincere dialogue. I hope in my life to be in a position to help one day, and I would appreciate the insight. I also ask that this question be introspective, that in answering, any notions that white people are fully to blame be abandoned--I desire for blacks to look at themselves as to what they can do better, in addition to what whites can do better.

If I have ever come off as a racist, well, I apologize. I am not one. Forgive me. Thank you.

-Otto

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
RE: The definitive race post, used to enlighten white people:
Jul 12th 2005
1
Sigh all you want tek....you really aren't being fair
Jul 13th 2005
2
RE: Sigh all you want tek....you really aren't being fair
Jul 13th 2005
10
Muy Interesante...
Jul 13th 2005
12
RE: Hi Otto,
Jul 13th 2005
80
Okay man, take your time.
Jul 13th 2005
82
RE: Sigh all you want tek....you really aren't being fair
Jul 14th 2005
88
      I thank you for your thoughtful response...
Jul 14th 2005
107
           RE: Props,
Jul 14th 2005
108
           RE: Props,
Jul 14th 2005
109
bartek
Jul 17th 2005
142
RE: The definitive race post, used to enlighten white people:
Jul 13th 2005
3
How do white people play into the break down of the family
Jul 13th 2005
5
      they don't
Jul 13th 2005
7
      As it stands now, this is how I see it, but!
Jul 13th 2005
9
           RE: As it stands now, this is how I see it, but!
Jul 13th 2005
13
                Difference between being rich and being wealthy
Jul 13th 2005
71
                     wealth wont solve our problems
Jul 13th 2005
72
                     See #74 nm
Jul 13th 2005
75
                     This part
Jul 13th 2005
74
                          I understand all that
Jul 13th 2005
78
                               RE: I understand all that
Jul 13th 2005
83
                                    my point stands
Jul 13th 2005
85
                                         Where's the wealth...
Jul 13th 2005
86
                                         RE: Where's the wealth...
Jul 14th 2005
89
                                              RE: Where's the wealth...
Jul 14th 2005
91
                                                   and i'm saying
Jul 14th 2005
93
                                                   Okay
Jul 14th 2005
98
                                                        then how do you explain
Jul 14th 2005
99
                                                             Could it possibly be related to...
Jul 14th 2005
111
                                                             No
Jul 14th 2005
112
                                                                  what are you calling "strong"?
Jul 15th 2005
128
                                                             RE: then how do you explain
Jul 14th 2005
118
                                                             they still have their culture.
Jul 15th 2005
127
                                                   But,
Jul 14th 2005
104
                                                        What is the system?
Jul 14th 2005
116
                                         RE: my point stands
Jul 19th 2005
145
      Your sig, is very
Jul 13th 2005
8
Archives.
Jul 13th 2005
4
for some reason,
Jul 13th 2005
6
      Clear your cache, delete your cookies. n/m
Jul 13th 2005
18
first off let me say
Jul 13th 2005
11
RE: first off let me say
Jul 13th 2005
14
RE: first off let me say
Jul 13th 2005
19
      I see your point. This is so different from say James Brown.
Jul 13th 2005
22
      and this dude is a mod!?!?
Jul 13th 2005
25
           No, I'm comparing the lyrics of one song to another.
Jul 13th 2005
27
                Firebrand,
Jul 13th 2005
31
                Are you putting arguements in my mouth? When I make
Jul 13th 2005
34
                     I am not putting words or arguments in your mouth...
Jul 13th 2005
37
                          I was pointing out the ridiculous nature of The poster's
Jul 13th 2005
43
                               I agree....
Jul 13th 2005
46
                               those songs are not sexually perverted though
Jul 13th 2005
47
                                    slippery slope. n/m
Jul 13th 2005
51
                                         translation: I HAVE NO ARGUMENT
Jul 13th 2005
53
                                              LOL!
Jul 13th 2005
56
                                              Translation: I gotta run, but ...
Jul 13th 2005
59
                man u know those songs are mild
Jul 13th 2005
32
                     They are mild using the cultural context of THAT DAY? shit.
Jul 13th 2005
36
                          sex machine came out in 1970
Jul 13th 2005
42
                               you would feel comfortable with your son or daughter
Jul 13th 2005
44
                                    im done.
Jul 13th 2005
52
                                         Fellas, what would you say if I asked that we got back on track?
Jul 13th 2005
58
                                         That is just sick.
Jul 13th 2005
60
                                         this!? coming from YOU!?!?
Jul 13th 2005
61
                                              huh? are you posting red herrings again?
Jul 13th 2005
63
                                                   i took practical reasoning a year ago
Jul 13th 2005
64
                                                        I dunno, but that post I just responded too? that shit was
Jul 13th 2005
65
                                         I see the point you are making suave, and I
Jul 13th 2005
67
                                              Two years old and singing?
Jul 13th 2005
68
                                                   The Bible.
Jul 13th 2005
                                                   cosign...
Jul 13th 2005
76
                                                   *pumps brakes*
Jul 15th 2005
121
                                                        Nothing is more universal than God!
Jul 15th 2005
122
                                                             i don't wanna start this argument
Jul 15th 2005
125
                                                                  God has a monopoly on truth...and there is only one TRUE path...
Jul 15th 2005
131
                                                                       ok.
Jul 15th 2005
132
                                                                       Do you mean
Jul 18th 2005
144
                                                   Thanks man...I don't know about genius,
Jul 13th 2005
79
                                                        I feel like clapping man,
Jul 13th 2005
81
                                                        Can you adopt my family? lol n/m
Jul 13th 2005
84
      These lyrics are appalling, and give
Jul 13th 2005
23
           You can't be serious.
Jul 13th 2005
24
           John Lee Hooker is ONE ARTIST....
Jul 13th 2005
28
                If you don't know who John Lee Hooker is, stop commenting.
Jul 13th 2005
33
                     No, I don't make anything of myself....
Jul 13th 2005
39
                          The fuck are you talking about?
Jul 13th 2005
50
                               RE: The fuck are you talking about?
Jul 13th 2005
55
           i dont know if u are being serious or not
Jul 13th 2005
26
                Yeah, but certainly not all black people
Jul 13th 2005
29
                They think of women this way? I wonder why? what coud be
Jul 13th 2005
30
                     Good questions.....
Jul 13th 2005
35
                     And what do u feel has been the catalyst for such change?
Jul 13th 2005
38
                     a falling away from
Jul 13th 2005
41
                          This is a great point.
Jul 13th 2005
73
                               Well,
Jul 13th 2005
77
                                    RE: Well,
Jul 14th 2005
90
                                         I totally disagree.There is no paragon
Jul 14th 2005
103
                                              RE: I totally disagree.There is no paragon
Jul 14th 2005
110
                                              You are closed minded about this,
Jul 14th 2005
113
                                              RE: I totally disagree.There is no paragon
Jul 14th 2005
114
                                                   very astute rebuttle, Shakeet
Jul 14th 2005
115
                                                        no it wasn't.
Jul 15th 2005
129
                                                             Unless you follow your own statement:
Jul 15th 2005
133
                                                                  huh???
Jul 15th 2005
135
                                                                       i agree with this:
Jul 15th 2005
136
                                                                       there's a lesson in this.
Jul 18th 2005
143
                                              RE: I totally disagree.There is no paragon
Jul 15th 2005
119
                                                   i agree....
Jul 15th 2005
120
                                                        pffffff...
Jul 21st 2005
146
                                                        pffffff...
Jul 21st 2005
147
                                                             Your definition of morality must then be
Jul 21st 2005
148
                     RE: Good questions.....
Jul 15th 2005
137
                          Your response is incredibly pretentious.
Jul 15th 2005
138
                               If he was indeed skeptical of love,
Jul 15th 2005
139
                     like i said before
Jul 13th 2005
40
                          The break down of the family for Africans certainly was the 70's
Jul 13th 2005
45
                               Not according to Sunngold (forgive me if i spelled it wrong)
Jul 13th 2005
48
                               see post #13
Jul 13th 2005
49
                                    See the ARCHIVES. nm
Jul 13th 2005
54
there is so much to say in response....it will take a long time
Jul 13th 2005
21
LaLee's Kin
Jul 13th 2005
15
I saw that a couple years ago
Jul 13th 2005
17
Not sad at all...
Jul 13th 2005
70
      Wrong
Jul 14th 2005
94
           Well
Jul 14th 2005
117
There was a similar film
Jul 13th 2005
66
      I've heard of it
Jul 13th 2005
69
RE: The definitive race post, used to enlighten white people:
Jul 13th 2005
16
nigga
Jul 13th 2005
20
RE: nigga
Jul 13th 2005
57
      i try to keep it simple 4 the simple minded
Jul 13th 2005
62
i agree.
Jul 15th 2005
130
I feel like we haven't stayed on topic...n/m
Jul 13th 2005
87
See #91
Jul 14th 2005
92
darlin, you keep asking these broad, 400 yr old questions
Jul 15th 2005
124
7 Reasons for Our Peoples' Insanity
Jul 14th 2005
95
Is ANY of it our fault?
Jul 14th 2005
96
Two questions:
Jul 14th 2005
105
Most white folks know the truth however continue to live a lie
Jul 14th 2005
97
And what is the truth?
Jul 14th 2005
101
      Truth is race is a figment of the europeans imagination
Jul 14th 2005
102
           How could race be created out of guilt?
Jul 14th 2005
106
                it's a social construct.
Jul 15th 2005
126
This post will go Nowhere
Jul 14th 2005
100
what kind of reading have you done on the topic?
Jul 15th 2005
123
thank you. nm
Jul 15th 2005
134
Read the archives
Jul 16th 2005
140
...
Jul 17th 2005
141
RE: The definitive race post, used to enlighten white people:
Jun 14th 2008
149

BarTek
Member since Nov 10th 2002
51250 posts
Tue Jul-12-05 10:48 PM

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1. "RE: The definitive race post, used to enlighten white people:"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


>1) What problems do you see within the black community as
>detrimental to your advancement.
>
What problems do you see within the WHITE community as detrimental to black folks and poverty stricken folks advancement?

>2) What is the most inhibiting of these?

Who is holding the keys to all the gates?

>
>3) What can be done to fix it.
>
Understanding the problem.


>
>I want honest, open, and sincere dialogue. I hope in my life
>to be in a position to help one day, and I would appreciate
>the insight. I also ask that this question be introspective,
>that in answering, any notions that white people are fully to
>blame be abandoned--I desire for blacks to look at themselves
>as to what they can do better, in addition to what whites can
>do better.

Sigh...............Otto you are white;
"I desire for blacks to look at themselves as to what they can do better"
I honestly just want to laugh at the irony in that. It's pretty damn amusing. Otto, Have you ever heard of the whtie man's burden? What can the white man do, to civilize the less civilized? You are a white man, posing a question that will be interpreted in that sense.

"any notions that white people are fully to blamed be abandoned"

Who is to blame? Is blame even a factor? Was it collective?
Who initiated?
Can you explain to me, how white people are not to be blamed? Who built those ships? Who operated those ships? Who enslaved and punished? Who raped and murdered? Who stole and corrupted? ...
... ... ... ... ...

The only answer to your proposition is; "I volunteered" and that's not the case. I wonder what you are truly fighting for. Are you fighting the perception that white folks are to blame for everything? What is it?

peace


~
In Heavy Rotation;
KRS ONE will phuck yo head up hip young emcee!

  

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Otto
Member since Dec 19th 2002
4624 posts
Wed Jul-13-05 10:09 AM

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2. "Sigh all you want tek....you really aren't being fair"
In response to Reply # 1
Wed Jul-13-05 10:16 AM by Otto

  

          

What are you fighting for, Tek? To make me look like a racist?


>>Can you explain to me, how white people are not to be blamed?


^^^I didn't say we aren't to be blamed. I said we aren't to be blamed fully...Of course white people put blacks on those ships, are you trying to make me look so out of touch that I wouldn't admit that? That was four hundred years ago. Slavery ended in 1867...in Galveston, Texas. Since then a different social dynamic has developed. I am talking about today, man. The problems that exist today, post emanicipation cannot all be the white man's fault. But many are the white man's fault. I am not here to argue, or debate....I am here to learn. Frankly, you aren't black so you really didn't have to answer...especially since your answer isn't constructive. No one is trying to "civilize the less civilized." Yet, such statement perpetuate further division between our races. It's funny you totally neglected all of my statement about unity....to paint me as some honkey fishing for bait...."Sigh Otto, you are white." I know I'm white Tek, so are you! NO, this isn't about blame....my statement was to heed off anyone who would respond under the idea that this was about blame....but you didn't want to see that, becase it seems you wanted to make me look like a "guilt-stricken white man..."

-Otto

  

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Nettrice
Charter member
61747 posts
Wed Jul-13-05 11:09 AM

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10. "RE: Sigh all you want tek....you really aren't being fair"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

>Slavery
>ended in 1867...in Galveston, Texas.

Don't you believe it! I recommend you watch "Lalee's Kin: The Legacy of Cotton":

"Inspirational school superintendent Reggie Barnes lays out the facts: "We get kids in kindergarten who don't know their names. We get kids in kindergarten who don't know colors. We get kids in kindergarten that have never been read to." This is not surprising, we learn, as most of the parents can't read either. Barnes fights to break a catch-22; industry won't come to Tallahatchie County because of the poor school system, and it is that very lack of industry that perpetuates the poverty. The brilliance of this film is its poignant portrait of the Wallace clan as they barely eke out an existence under family matriarch Lalee, a formidable woman who's drive for survival is evident whether she's hauling water from the spigot at the local jail or putting food on the table for a trailer full of "grands" and "great-grands"." - http://www.infoplease.com/movies/29576

Also
http://www.laleeskin.com
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0274622/
http://movies.yahoo.com/mvc/drv?mid=1804383743
http://ottawa.filmcan.ca/cgi-bin/main/mview.cgi?FID=LAL-1

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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Otto
Member since Dec 19th 2002
4624 posts
Wed Jul-13-05 11:42 AM

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12. "Muy Interesante..."
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

Gracias...

-Otto

  

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BarTek
Member since Nov 10th 2002
51250 posts
Wed Jul-13-05 03:53 PM

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80. "RE: Hi Otto,"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

I will respond. I am only challenging you, for good reason as I shall express.

Peace friend.
~
In Heavy Rotation;
KRS ONE will phuck yo head up hip young emcee!

I love all Hip Hop, fuck yo preference!

  

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Otto
Member since Dec 19th 2002
4624 posts
Wed Jul-13-05 03:56 PM

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82. "Okay man, take your time."
In response to Reply # 80


  

          

-Otto

  

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BarTek
Member since Nov 10th 2002
51250 posts
Thu Jul-14-05 01:53 AM

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88. "RE: Sigh all you want tek....you really aren't being fair"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

>What are you fighting for, Tek? To make me look like a
>racist?
>

Nope, but I want you to look introspectively at yourself as a white american male.

>
>>>Can you explain to me, how white people are not to be
>blamed?
>
>
>^^^I didn't say we aren't to be blamed. I said we aren't to be
>blamed fully...Of course white people put blacks on those
>ships, are you trying to make me look so out of touch that I
>wouldn't admit that? That was four hundred years ago. Slavery
>ended in 1867...in Galveston, Texas. Since then a different
>social dynamic has developed. I am talking about today, man.

Today, is simply the realization of yesterday. Those slave ships ignited a history that is still alive today. Slavery still exists Otto. Perhaps, most physical slavery has ended, but mental slavery persists and is much more potent. If you can enslave a people and have them kill eachother too, well, now you're talking something better than keeping them on a chain and shooting them yourself. The problem today, is much more potent than the problem yesterday. A black revolutionary has to defeat stereotype, racism, image, perception, ... ..., violence in their own community, ... ..., drug addiction, now connect that history to who flooded the ghetto's with crack/cocaine, or, who made it very easy for others to...

>The problems that exist today, post emanicipation cannot all
>be the white man's fault.

Fact is, I don't care to think about which was the black man's fault, cause that's black folk business. My business is talking to white folk about the problem. What black folk decide to do with their own issues, is their own business. You see, history has demonstrated several things to black folks; the white man knows better, the white man will educate the uncivilized, the white man will show you salvation, the white man will show you a god, the white man is god!, the white man's education is the one, etc... It does not matter if you are racist or not, all that matters, is that you are a white man, challenging black folk on shit that you don't experience or remotely understand. This shit is deeper than Hip Hop, the news...

But many are the white man's fault.
>I am not here to argue, or debate....I am here to learn.
>Frankly, you aren't black so you really didn't have to
>answer...especially since your answer isn't constructive. No
>one is trying to "civilize the less civilized." Yet, such
>statement perpetuate further division between our races.

Well. I am just wondering. You asked black folk what they can do about today, and what they can do to help themselves? Let me take a shot in the dark.

*Whoosh*

Do you have ideas about what black folk can do to help themselves?
I bet.

Have you thought about some of the issues black folks face?
Nod.

Have you experienced a few hundred of years of conditioned slavery?
Not on this level.

Do you fully understand the problem, and do you truly think, that black folks don't think about the same issues you thought about? Do you think black folks don't look for solutions? just as you have? Some of these folks are falling asleep to gun shots. I heard that shit in Kingston, it's like a loud crack, and not the cool shit on television. That is not our problem Otto. That's black folks business, that is why I challenged you on your question with "white man's burden", this burden, isn't yours. Our burden is with white folk. Now that's a real challenge Otto.

It's
>funny you totally neglected all of my statement about
>unity....to paint me as some honkey fishing for bait...."Sigh
>Otto, you are white." I know I'm white Tek, so are you! NO,
>this isn't about blame....my statement was to heed off anyone
>who would respond under the idea that this was about
>blame....but you didn't want to see that, becase it seems you
>wanted to make me look like a "guilt-stricken white man..."

I'm just challenging you with some of the same knowledge I was challenged with. I'm just trying to show you, that black folks never made you the "guilt-stricken white man", but white folks made you that.

Peace

~
In Heavy Rotation;
KRS ONE will phuck yo head up hip young emcee!

I love all Hip Hop, fuck yo preference!

  

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Otto
Member since Dec 19th 2002
4624 posts
Thu Jul-14-05 12:19 PM

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107. "I thank you for your thoughtful response..."
In response to Reply # 88


  

          

Our burden is with white folk. Now that's a real challenge Otto.


^^^You can't direct the white folk, if you don't know what they're doing wrong. And I can't know what they're doing wrong, unless I ask the black folk...that's all I am doing with this post. That's all I was doing...Other than that, your response in on point, and I thank you again. I appreciate your perspective.

-Otto

  

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BarTek
Member since Nov 10th 2002
51250 posts
Thu Jul-14-05 12:59 PM

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108. "RE: Props,"
In response to Reply # 107
Thu Jul-14-05 01:01 PM by BarTek

  

          

double post thingy...peace

~
In Heavy Rotation;
KRS ONE will phuck yo head up hip young emcee!

I love all Hip Hop, fuck yo preference!

  

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BarTek
Member since Nov 10th 2002
51250 posts
Thu Jul-14-05 12:59 PM

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109. "RE: Props,"
In response to Reply # 107


  

          

Right on Otto. I agree with you. It is best to ask black folks, however if you are able to, suspend your ego and let words such as "cracka, devil, amerikkka, etc" pass through you, that is deep rooted anger that we do not understand, and since you know who you are, you don't need to take offense to those words. You know where you stand and you know what you are trying to accomplish, thus, those words have zero value with you.

It took me a few years to realize some of these things, and I enjoyed speaking with you, because, I found myself leaning back in my chair scratching my head a few times thinking, "wow, Otto is asking the same questions I used to ask and I am giving him the same replies I used to get." It has been very interesting and I learned a lot too, however, I think it's clear that you are on the right path to understanding and action, and I'm proud of you. It's not easy to face our mirror and face what our people have done, but we will get there, and we will fight those people and win.

Peace fam! Dap!


~
In Heavy Rotation;
KRS ONE will phuck yo head up hip young emcee!

I love all Hip Hop, fuck yo preference!

  

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Jon
Charter member
16187 posts
Sun Jul-17-05 01:27 PM

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142. "bartek"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

white people are not to be blamed for the same reason white people are not to be credited for the airplane

white people have done nothing good or bad collectively. niether have black people. there has never been a race on earth that collectively did anything. only individual specimins.

  

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sunngodd
Member since Feb 20th 2003
8324 posts
Wed Jul-13-05 10:35 AM

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3. "RE: The definitive race post, used to enlighten white people:"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

>1) What problems do you see within the black community as
>detrimental to your advancement.

I don't see anything as inhibiting my own personal advancement. In general Black People are being inhibited by a breakdown of the family unit, a culture of anti-education, the glorification of criminal behavior, a culture of irresponsible sexual behavior, an expectation that the government can and will fix our problems, and a lack of sufficent educational opportunities.

>2) What is the most inhibiting of these?

The breakdown of the family unit. In fact, I'd say that all the other problems i listed can in some way be linked to this issue.

>3) What can be done to fix it.

I can't answer that at this time. Our biggest problems are cultural, I don't know how you change a culture.

>I don't want any UNITED SNAKES OF AMERIKKKA replies, nor any
>other gratuitous childishness. But I would like open
>participation from even the most pessimistic players -- just
>eloquent and well thought out participation.

>If I have ever come off as a racist, well, I apologize. I am
>not one. Forgive me. Thank you.

I've never found your comments racist. I commend you for having the courage to speak honestly about race. A big problem is that many people, black and white, are afraid to speak on certian racial issues.

------------------------------------
"What shall we do with the negro?" I have had but one answer from the beginning. Do nothing with us! Your doing with us has already played the mischief with us...if the negro cannot stand on his own legs, let him fall - Frederick Douglass

  

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Otto
Member since Dec 19th 2002
4624 posts
Wed Jul-13-05 10:44 AM

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5. "How do white people play into the break down of the family"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

unit?

Thank you for responding.


-Otto

  

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sunngodd
Member since Feb 20th 2003
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7. "they don't"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

It has nothing to do with white people. It's about black people not understanding the importance of maintaining stable families.

------------------------
"What shall we do with the negro?" I have had but one answer from the beginning. Do nothing with us! Your doing with us has already played the mischief with us...if the negro cannot stand on his own legs, let him fall - Frederick Douglass

  

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Otto
Member since Dec 19th 2002
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9. "As it stands now, this is how I see it, but!"
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

... but there are many players here who disagree...what do you think they see as a white role in the break down of the family? Thanks again for your participation.

-Otto

  

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sunngodd
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13. "RE: As it stands now, this is how I see it, but!"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

>... but there are many players here who disagree...what do
>you think they see as a white role in the break down of the
>family? Thanks again for your participation.

For people that think it's the white mans fault, I would say you have three types.

First, you have the wackos that think there's a white supremacist conspiracy to annihilate the black community. Pay these people no attention.

Then you have the argument that slavery broke down the black famility structure. This is an interesting argument, but it isn't rooted in fact. If anyone subscribes to this argument, they should read this book: The Black Family in Slavery and Freedom, 1750-1925
by Herber G. Gutman http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0394724518/qid=1121272193/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_ur_1/002-2626709-6004815?v=glance&s=books&n=507846 This book clearly shows that the black family remained strong during slavery as well as it's aftermath. The black family has never been perfect, but it's present state is a fairly recent development.

Lastly, you have the people that say that economic factors (which can be traced back to slavery and discrimination) account for the breakdown of the family. Again, this argument isn't supported by the facts. The Black community is richer than it's ever been, yet our families are worse than ever. Black people earn roughly the same amount as Hispanics, yet 70% of black children are born out of wedlock, while this number is only 25-30% for hispanics.

--------------------------------------
"What shall we do with the negro?" I have had but one answer from the beginning. Do nothing with us! Your doing with us has already played the mischief with us...if the negro cannot stand on his own legs, let him fall - Frederick Douglass

  

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Nettrice
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71. "Difference between being rich and being wealthy"
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

Interesting article:

"I'm reminded of a joke comedian Chris Rock told in his last HBO special. "Here's the difference between being wealthy and being rich. Shaq is rich. The guy who signs Shaq's check is wealthy. Oprah is rich. Bill Gates is wealthy. If Bill Gates woke up with Oprah Winfrey's money, he'd slit his throat."

OK. So he's wrong about Oprah. Oprah's wealthy, too. But you get his drift. Wealth is about more than having a lot of money.

With wealth, you have the wherewithal to make other people rich. With wealth, you have riches to pass on to your children, or whoever you like.

Riches, as Rock so aptly notes, can be frittered away in a year by rap stars and other entertainers who spend extravagantly on parties, cars and jewelry. Wealth is not necessarily about having great gobs of money but about having net worth that makes you financially comfortable over the long-term and provides a base on which to build more wealth.

Yes, it's good to be rich, but it's great to have wealth.

Which brings me to the National Urban League's annual "State of Black America" report released on Wednesday. The report, which the group has been doing since 1976, acknowledges the progress blacks have made over the last several decades. Income and education gaps have narrowed. Home ownership is up. Blacks are more civicly involved.

But significant problems remain, and some are worsening rapidly. Joblessness is stagnant for blacks at 10.8 percent, while unemployment dropped for whites to 4.7 percent. Health and life expectancy for blacks have improved. But blacks live only an average of 72 years to whites' 76 years. And obesity rates for blacks are growing rapidly. Blacks are three times more likely to become prisoners when they are arrested than are whites. The average jail sentence for blacks is six months more than whites get for the same crimes. The education level of blacks is 77 percent of whites. Blacks in public schools are twice as likely as whites to be taught by inexperienced teachers.

Resolving some issues requires fair enforcement of laws and government help. The Urban League makes several good recommendations: Raise the minimum wage to a standard that's a living wage, not poverty wage. Strengthen job training programs. Strengthen the Community Reinvestment Act to make loans for home ownership more available and affordable.

But black Americans must be more aggressive in helping themselves, the report notes. One big area is in building wealth.

Urban League president Marc Morial is on the mark. "The growing wealth gap in this country is not just leaving behind Black America, it's leaving behind the middle class, urban America, rural America and Hispanic America too," he said.

But the wealth gap is stark between blacks and whites. The wage gap has narrowed between blacks and whites -- fueled by better education and anti-discrimination laws. But the net worth of black households compared to white households has remained stagnant. The net worth of blacks is just one-tenth that of whites.

Part of the gap is due to assets whites acquired and built on during slavery and segregation. But the Urban League notes rightly that "African Americans must energize their focus on savings, investing and estate planning."

Many must become more knowledgeable. Some need to just have common sense. That's evident in results of a survey done by Minority Wealth Magazine.

According to this poll, many minorities -- 45 percent -- said their best opportunity to build wealth was by playing the lottery rather than by contributing to a retirement fund. Huh? A lottery? Where the chances of winning are, oh, a gazillion to one?!?!!

The minorities surveyed included 48 percent African Americans, 41 percent Hispanic Americans, three percent Asian Americans and six percent other minorities. So black Americans are not the only misguided ones.

But that's mind-boggling. And it's troubling, given that North Carolina seems to be on a fast track to establish a lottery.

This, though, is not surprising. Most of those surveyed, over 60 percent, said they had a better understanding and more readily available information on their state lottery than on retirement plans and other types of savings.

Laws and better public policy can help improve the status of people of color. But as African Americans, we must do more as well by being less gullible and making wiser choices, and by educating ourselves and others." - http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/news/columnists/fannie_flono/11341115.htm

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
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72. "wealth wont solve our problems"
In response to Reply # 71


          

i dont see the point in you creating an entire reply off of somebodies example in trying to prove an even bigger point...especially over something like this - 5 dollars or 5 billion dollars, money wont solve this shit...

  

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Nettrice
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75. "See #74 nm"
In response to Reply # 72


  

          

>i dont see the point in you creating an entire reply off of
>somebodies example in trying to prove an even bigger
>point...especially over something like this - 5 dollars or 5
>billion dollars, money wont solve this shit...

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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Nettrice
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74. "This part"
In response to Reply # 71


  

          

"Wealth is about more than having a lot of money.

With wealth, you have the wherewithal to make other people rich. With wealth, you have riches to pass on to your children, or whoever you like.

Riches, as Rock so aptly notes, can be frittered away in a year by rap stars and other entertainers who spend extravagantly on parties, cars and jewelry. Wealth is not necessarily about having great gobs of money but about having net worth that makes you financially comfortable over the long-term and provides a base on which to build more wealth."

It's like people who go and get stomach by-pass surgery. They think the surgery will make them thin but if they don't have access to the knowledge or resources to change their lifestlye they will waste time, money, and pain...and most likely will gain their weight back or more. Switch the by-pass to money and it's the same thing. However, wealth, like power has a certain dynamic that is already in place. It is this dynamic that people ignore...and why folks keep going in circles about how to fix the Black community. Being rich just doesn't cut it.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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sunngodd
Member since Feb 20th 2003
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78. "I understand all that"
In response to Reply # 74


  

          

but what does it have to do with the point I made? My point is that poverty is not the cause of the breakdown of the family. Are you trying to add to that point, refute it, or what?

-------------------------------------
"What shall we do with the negro?" I have had but one answer from the beginning. Do nothing with us! Your doing with us has already played the mischief with us...if the negro cannot stand on his own legs, let him fall - Frederick Douglass

  

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Nettrice
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83. "RE: I understand all that"
In response to Reply # 78


  

          

>but what does it have to do with the point I made? My point
>is that poverty is not the cause of the breakdown of the
>family. Are you trying to add to that point, refute it, or
>what?

"The Black community is richer than it's ever been, yet our families are worse than ever."

The article I posted addresses your statement (above):

"But the net worth of black households compared to white households has remained stagnant. The net worth of blacks is just one-tenth that of whites."

and this:

"But significant problems remain, and some are worsening rapidly. Joblessness is stagnant for blacks at 10.8 percent, while unemployment dropped for whites to 4.7 percent. Health and life expectancy for blacks have improved. But blacks live only an average of 72 years to whites' 76 years. And obesity rates for blacks are growing rapidly. Blacks are three times more likely to become prisoners when they are arrested than are whites. The average jail sentence for blacks is six months more than whites get for the same crimes. The education level of blacks is 77 percent of whites. Blacks in public schools are twice as likely as whites to be taught by inexperienced teachers."

The article supports some of the things you posted and refutes others as it relates to being rich vs. wealth. The article, esp. the National Urban League's "State of Black America" report show a much larger picture as it relates to Black American communities today. I was pointing that out.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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sunngodd
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85. "my point stands"
In response to Reply # 83


  

          

The gap between Blacks and Whites may be staying the same or widening, but that doesn't refute the fact that we have more money and wealth then we've ever had at any point in our history.

And this certianly doesn't show that poverty is responsible for the breakdown of the family

------------------
"What shall we do with the negro?" I have had but one answer from the beginning. Do nothing with us! Your doing with us has already played the mischief with us...if the negro cannot stand on his own legs, let him fall - Frederick Douglass

  

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Nettrice
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86. "Where's the wealth..."
In response to Reply # 85


  

          

...and power? If you know then share it with others who don't know. Many Black folks are rich but I don't know about wealth.

"With wealth, you have the wherewithal to make other people rich. With wealth, you have riches to pass on to your children, or whoever you like."

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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pascal
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89. "RE: Where's the wealth..."
In response to Reply # 86


  

          

so both of you seem to see the core of the problem in an inability to take responsibility, either in the way you spend your riches or in the way you connect with your family?

  

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Nettrice
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91. "RE: Where's the wealth..."
In response to Reply # 89
Thu Jul-14-05 07:52 AM by Nettrice

  

          

>so both of you seem to see the core of the problem in an
>inability to take responsibility, either in the way you spend
>your riches or in the way you connect with your family?

Yes but I am asserting something else. I am asserting that there is a system that has been in place for eons that hinders the process of developing wealth (not riches) in Black communities and key resources to end the cycle of poverty and racism. There's a lot of inertia at the top of the socio-political totem pole, not a lot of change is happening, nor is it happening at the bottom. You can see this dynamic in large institutions and corporations...even in nonprofits that ae supposed to help bridge the divide(s).

Black folks can and will make progress but unless the system is changed I doubt that the playing field can become level. The socio-political dynamic will remain pretty much the same.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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sunngodd
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Thu Jul-14-05 08:35 AM

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93. "and i'm saying"
In response to Reply # 91


  

          

that a "cycle of povery and racism" does not explain why we can't maintain stable families

-------------------
"What shall we do with the negro?" I have had but one answer from the beginning. Do nothing with us! Your doing with us has already played the mischief with us...if the negro cannot stand on his own legs, let him fall - Frederick Douglass

  

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Nettrice
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98. "Okay"
In response to Reply # 93


  

          

>that a "cycle of povery and racism" does not explain why we
>can't maintain stable families

But I disagree.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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sunngodd
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Thu Jul-14-05 10:48 AM

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99. "then how do you explain"
In response to Reply # 98


  

          

Hispanics being just as poor as us and being able to maintain families that are much more stable than ours?

----------------------
"What shall we do with the negro?" I have had but one answer from the beginning. Do nothing with us! Your doing with us has already played the mischief with us...if the negro cannot stand on his own legs, let him fall - Frederick Douglass

  

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14thLight
Member since Apr 30th 2005
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Thu Jul-14-05 01:30 PM

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111. "Could it possibly be related to..."
In response to Reply # 99


          

No Hispanic population having ever been enslaved in America? Could it be related to the fact that there has never been large scale instituional (legal or otherwise) racism levied against any Hispanic population? Could it be possiblly related to the fact that MOST hispanic families in America consist of no more than two generations of individuals born in this country?

Hispanic folk by and large are culturally close to their mother cultures (be it Honduran, Brasilian, Puerto Rock, or whatever). Family, as you know, is generally the cornerstone of a lot of Hispanic cultures. The sole purpose of immigration for many Hispanic folks is better oppurtunities for their families. Therefore, if you have first and second generation American Hispanics... there values are going to be extremely similiar to those of their mother culture. There cocnern with their families is going to be very similiar to that of their cultural norm. Furthermore... they have never experienced any insitituional atrocity on the part of Americans that resulted in disruptions of their family units. I hate to say it folk... but if you were to let more generations pass and throw in some insitutional atrocities levied against them... I gurantee you their "picture" wouldn't be too bright.

Hispanic folks don't have the Fd up family units that black folks do simply because they ahve not experienced the same things we have, nor have they been here the same amount of time.


_______________________________________
"When I use the word 'love', I am not making an attempt at rhetoric. I am attempting to express a refulgent, unrestrained emanation from the most durable region of my soul..." -George Jackson "Soledad Brother"

  

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sunngodd
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Thu Jul-14-05 01:39 PM

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112. "No"
In response to Reply # 111


  

          

>No Hispanic population having ever been enslaved in America?
>Could it be related to the fact that there has never been
>large scale instituional (legal or otherwise) racism levied
>against any Hispanic population? Could it be possiblly related
>to the fact that MOST hispanic families in America consist of
>no more than two generations of individuals born in this
>country?

As I stated in post 13, black families remained strong throughout and after slavery. This was proven by Herbert G. Gutman in the book "The Black Family in Slavery and Freedom." And if our families can remain strong through slavery, we should be able to survive "large scale institutional racism."

>Hispanic folk by and large are culturally close to their
>mother cultures (be it Honduran, Brasilian, Puerto Rock, or
>whatever). Family, as you know, is generally the cornerstone
>of a lot of Hispanic cultures. The sole purpose of immigration
>for many Hispanic folks is better oppurtunities for their
>families. Therefore, if you have first and second generation
>American Hispanics... there values are going to be extremely
>similiar to those of their mother culture. There cocnern with
>their families is going to be very similiar to that of their
>cultural norm.

EXACTLY!!! Culturally, they are very family oriented. Black culture used to be the same way, but it seems like were at the point where maintaing a strong family is not important anymore.

Furthermore... they have never experienced any
>insitituional atrocity on the part of Americans that resulted
>in disruptions of their family units. I hate to say it folk...
>but if you were to let more generations pass and throw in some
>insitutional atrocities levied against them... I gurantee you
>their "picture" wouldn't be too bright.

What "institional attocities" are responsible for destroying the black family? It sure wasn't slavery.

-------------------------------
"What shall we do with the negro?" I have had but one answer from the beginning. Do nothing with us! Your doing with us has already played the mischief with us...if the negro cannot stand on his own legs, let him fall - Frederick Douglass

  

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LexM
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Fri Jul-15-05 03:26 PM

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128. "what are you calling "strong"?"
In response to Reply # 112


  

          

>>No Hispanic population having ever been enslaved in
>America?
>>Could it be related to the fact that there has never been
>>large scale instituional (legal or otherwise) racism levied
>>against any Hispanic population? Could it be possiblly
>related
>>to the fact that MOST hispanic families in America consist
>of
>>no more than two generations of individuals born in this
>>country?
>
>As I stated in post 13, black families remained strong
>throughout and after slavery. This was proven by Herbert G.
>Gutman in the book "The Black Family in Slavery and Freedom."
>And if our families can remain strong through slavery, we
>should be able to survive "large scale institutional racism."

and that's just one book.


~~~~
~*~musical revolution~*~

"The world was warned about this...The CIA calls what happened in London today "blowback." It is wrong, it is heinous, it is murder plain and simple, and it was as predictable as the sun rising in the East." ~Wm Rivers Pitt

  

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Nettrice
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118. "RE: then how do you explain"
In response to Reply # 99
Thu Jul-14-05 04:42 PM by Nettrice

  

          

>Hispanics being just as poor as us and being able to maintain
>families that are much more stable than ours?

It's not just about income. I look at my own family and community as well as the communities where I work as examples. I talk to the elders and this is how I know that there is a progression from where things were to how things have gotten to this current state.

"As long as blacks remained in “their place,” whites would have no reason to remind them of the place that blacks should occupy." - from http://inpress.lib.uiowa.edu/poroi/papers/hahner041101.html

You can't negate the economic, educational, occupational, and political structures that have existed in this country since the beginning to create a circle of self-fulfilling prophecies. My Latino friends tell me of a different experience than my own family and many others who have been here for generations, as a result of slavery. There is a psychological consequence of our experience in this country that cannot be compared to other groups who often came here by choice. Certain ideas and ways of thinking/living were passed down from generation to generation. We (Black folks) are still dealing with that.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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LexM
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127. "they still have their culture."
In response to Reply # 99
Fri Jul-15-05 03:23 PM by LexM

  

          

>Hispanics being just as poor as us and being able to maintain
>families that are much more stable than ours?

for the most part (more indigenously-based hispanics have different stories).

but generally, many are first & second generation immigrants. they have retained their national heritage, not to mention their language, foods, rituals, etc.

they don't come here & "blend in", many of them. they come in and turn where they are into "little havana" or what have you. they bring their culture WITH them. not have it beaten out of them.

however, if you look deeper, you'll note the effects colonialism has had on them as well.

black people are the polar opposite. we generally only have what's been imposed on us since we got here. and that culture was pathological to start with.

other reasons:

harsher laws/sentencing and inequal enforcement of said laws putting more blk men in prison

the mental health crisis of the blk community (which in turn leads to addiction, homelessness, etc.)

poverty is a MAJOR issue because it leads to
unfit housing (lead paint, etc.)
malnutrition
addiction/neglect/abuse (who are you gonna take your pain out on?)


the list goes on.

this is ALL about cycles.

do y'all talk to your parents/grandparents?? according to mine, there were triflin folks back then, messin up their kids, just like now. we've been in pain for GENERATIONS.

this shit ain't new. it's just that we have more access to the wider culture in the post-jim crow era. and statistics.


~~~~
~*~musical revolution~*~

"The world was warned about this...The CIA calls what happened in London today "blowback." It is wrong, it is heinous, it is murder plain and simple, and it was as predictable as the sun rising in the East." ~Wm Rivers Pitt

  

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Otto
Member since Dec 19th 2002
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Thu Jul-14-05 11:48 AM

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104. "But,"
In response to Reply # 91


  

          

if there are riches, as you say...
it would seem those riches could easily become wealth--all it would take is smart investing. I would say the priorities are what keep the riches from becomming wealth. Do you see the mixed priorities a result of the system?

-Otto

  

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Nettrice
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116. "What is the system?"
In response to Reply # 104


  

          

>Do you see the
>mixed priorities a result of the system?

First, what is the goal of the system...and who does it benefit most? What are the economic, educational, occupational, and political structures that determine the give-and-take between African Americans and Caucasian Americans? The answers are right under our noses. When my parents were growing up they learned that as long as blacks remained in “their place,” white folks would have no reason to remind them of the place that Black folks should occupy.  The implication is that Black people in America knew their place from Reconstruction to the Civil Rights Movement.  This division has kept many Black and white people from stepping out of that roles (see LaLee's Kin).

As a pet project, starting when I was 16, I started looking into the demographics of the boards of major organizations and corporations. From Fortune 500 companies, to groups such as the NAACP on down to smaller nonprofits I found that the majority of the folks who are on these boards are white, wealthy, and male. Below that were the administrators and, more often than not, these folks were also white and male (with few exceptions).

I discovered that the further down the hierarchy I looked, the more diverse the folks were...all maintaining the status quo set by the folks at the top. I found that even the organizations who had a mission to close a "divide", or had a stake in Black communities in practice were narrowly restricted in outlook or scope. I was baffled but it began to make sense. This was the "status quo" I kept hearing about and it was/is racist...a better term would be white supremacist.

>if there are riches, as you say...
>it would seem those riches could easily become wealth

Riches are really individuals' disposable income and many Black people have not been taught how to make this income work for them in the long term.

>all it
>would take is smart investing. I would say the priorities are
>what keep the riches from becomming wealth.

Priorities AND the dynamics of the system...they are connected.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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nbtnmwoltz
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Tue Jul-19-05 09:39 PM

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145. "RE: my point stands"
In response to Reply # 85


  

          

>The gap between Blacks and Whites may be staying the same or
>widening, but that doesn't refute the fact that we have more
>money and wealth then we've ever had at any point in our
>history.
when you start from such a miniscule point, each year that passes should be "more money and wealth" than ever had, but it is still not anything at all to stop and take notice of or show pride in.

>And this certianly doesn't show that poverty is responsible
>for the breakdown of the family
poverty alone perhaps not, but it is definitely a contributing factor. this issue itself deserves its own thread as does every individual issue that falls under race relations. when we talk about keeping a family together do we mean no divorces, or healthy and abundant nurturing from both parents regardless if they live together or not? one's financial status is most definitely a factor. i remember i was talking to my friend from college one day about that, about how few of us black students at our school still had both parents married. and my boy pointed out that white people (most of the white ones at my school were WEALTHY) aren't necessarily any happier, the money just makes it easier to cope. and this pervades all interpersonal relationships, money isn't a fixer but it does ease the load sometimes.
now as i was saying, financial security is a factor, but society's conditioning and images that are propogated in every day life do take a psychological toll on us as a people. slavery DEFINITELY played a role, families stuck together when they could through the adversity but they were forcibly separated from one another and forced to start anew. the stress of slavery to jim crow to segregation, lynching, etc. not only directly ENDED the lives of many black fathers (either by violence, or by stress related ailments), but it put more stress upon their ability to support their families and definitely made a more turbulent home environment. this is not to say black people aren't responsible for it themselves as well, but the white power structure does bear responsibility as well.

  

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Otto
Member since Dec 19th 2002
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Wed Jul-13-05 10:52 AM

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8. "Your sig, is very"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

very interesting...

-Otto

  

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FireBrand
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4. "Archives."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


We on that carpetbaggin hustle in the '05-'06:

www.northernarc.net
www.sohlcollective.com
www.djvariable.net


Brooklynite by birth, Southern by the Grace of God.

  

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Otto
Member since Dec 19th 2002
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Wed Jul-13-05 10:45 AM

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6. "for some reason,"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

i can't get into the archives....???

-Otto

  

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FireBrand
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18. "Clear your cache, delete your cookies. n/m"
In response to Reply # 6


  

          


We on that carpetbaggin hustle in the '05-'06:

www.northernarc.net
www.sohlcollective.com
www.djvariable.net


Brooklynite by birth, Southern by the Grace of God.

  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
9433 posts
Wed Jul-13-05 11:32 AM

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11. "first off let me say"
In response to Reply # 0
Wed Jul-13-05 11:38 AM by suave_bro

          

that I'm feeling these posts. the average white okayplayer is afraid to speak their minds and even ask questions...ive seen white okayp's literally cower to ignorant negroes and not defend themselves out of fear of being called a racist, so Its good to see a few white okayp's actually have the balls to ask simple questions...


>I have offended many of you with my precipitous race posts,
>which were, in fact, posted more so out of spite and agitation
>than honest curiosity and conviction.

- I get the posts. the black mind is a complex thing; but one thing you need to know, when u see something that looks like a bunch of illogical bullshit, 10 times out of 10 it is! regardless of how far back in history these mofoes take u or try and say shit like "aww u just dont get it!", its still bullshit.

>What I see in America are two diverse groups--white and
>black--who at our cores, respectively, do not see eye to eye
>on many issues relevant to the way we perceive and relate to
>one another.

- that is changing rapidly though. but u are correct.

>Myself, all I want is for this gap between our races to be
>eradicated--for this chasm to be mended. I would like America
>to be whole, so, I ask for the sake of disabusing myself or
>anyother okaywhiteplayer of any erroneous notions we may
>have:
>
>1) What problems do you see within the black community as
>detrimental to your advancement.

- for me I have 3 main ones that are very broad and can be broken down into MANY sub categories and NONE of them have to do with white people, the system, or slavery.

1) E D U C A T I O N - education gives you options. when somebody doesnt have an education, they are forced to work these bullshit demeaning jobs or worse, involve themselves in a life a crime and corruption. this is common sense to those of us who have been paying attention, but its hard to pay attention when education is seen as uncool and not "black" like most black youth do (which is important, when u get a kid early thinking this way, its pretty much game over) also as I have said on here before, money for schools, poor teachers, run down school buildings, old text books: all excuses, most of our great, great grandparents taught themselves how to read in barns sleeping out by the cows and dogs, and if they were FORTUNATE to have schools, them shits were as big as outhouses...if a child wants to learn, they will learn. period.

2) M O R A L S - we have got to first stop CELEBRATING improper and immoral behaviors, and secondly nobody is ENFORCING proper morals in our community. notice i didnt say TEACH them, i said ENFORCE them; example - baby daddies get 0 flack in our community, in fact they are seen as just normal everyday mofoes, somebody posted the other day about a black girl who didnt know who her baby daddy was but was having a baby shower - that shouldnt be a time for celebration, that should be a time for RIDICULE AND PUNISHMENT, niggas ride around on rims and have hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of shit on their cars and backs - and we KNOW that its because they selling drugs but we dont care!! and the kids look up to them..

3) BLACK HUSTLERS/FALSE LEADERSHIP - growing up black in america u are taught to be EXTREMELY fearful. sometimes black kids are told OUT RIGHT that this is a white mans world and you more than likely wont make it, but on average, this is more of an implied thing - this is why the black leadership business is thriving the way that it is. ever slowed down to wonder why the black community is getting worse and black leadership is getting more and more face time? getting WEALTHIER by the minute? so, its not that "white privelage" and racism is holding back black folks (particularly males), its the black leadership and the bullshit that black youth hear from folks that post on here!! imagine growing up black and AAAAAAAAAALLLLL you hear is "slavery, jim crowe, police beatings, cop shot black youth, slavery some more, jim crowe some more"...how do u expect black youth (who will one day become black ADULTS) to thrive in droves if most of them believe that they wont ever be shit or achieve shit outside of sports/gang banging/rapping?

>2) What is the most inhibiting of these?

- the non-existent black family AND the moral and social decaying of the black man.

>3) What can be done to fix it.

A) get rid of this new black leadership, not the physical embodiment of these folks, but the mentalities. it wont happen overnight but nor will a black "turnaround".

B) as much as muthafuckas hate jesse lee peterson, this man is all about bringing the black family back together - the lifestyle of the man bringing home the bacon along with his wife coming home to his kids and taking them to baseball practice and plays etc., isnt as cool as pulling up on the side of a bunch of hoes on the street in your escelade ridin on 22's looking to get some "cut up"...

there is more 2 this, but u get the idea...

  

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Wonderl33t
Member since Jul 11th 2002
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Wed Jul-13-05 11:55 AM

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14. "RE: first off let me say"
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

I agree with a lot of this. I think education is the biggest one, and this goes for any group in any country that has problems.

But with regard to morals, I am white, and I think that all groups across the nation are degrading morally, not just black people. The media tells us that promiscuity is normal, and if you don't participate, you are a wierdo, or gay. But the DIFFERENCE goes back to education, because certain groups who value education more know how to avoid the consequences (contraception etc). So imo all groups in this country are experiencing major moral decline, but the groups who lack education are more affected by the hazards and consequences.

"Beauty is truly in the eye of the tiger" -HBMS

the fellowship:
absence, Al_Tru_Ist, BreezeBoogie, dank_reggae, Drewmathic, Ir_Cuba, LML, Lord_Vingtune, MIAthinker, Robert, Roofdogg10, Sandbox194, Supnakga, wonderl33t, xenophobia

http://dotmatrixfilmx.v

  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
9433 posts
Wed Jul-13-05 12:12 PM

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19. "RE: first off let me say"
In response to Reply # 14


          

>But with regard to morals, I am white, and I think that all
>groups across the nation are degrading morally, not just black
>people.

- allow me to share something with you: now bare in mind, this is more than MUSIC, it is the mentalities behind them:

1) R kelly has the #1 album in america right now. here are some of the song titles on his album: "Hit It Till the Mornin", "Sex Weed", "Sex in the Kitchen"

2) Yin Yang twinz have sold more albums than anybody in the last 2 months - we have all heard the "wait til u see my dick" bullshit

3) Pretty Ricky is the new black boy band group, their single is in the top 5 and album is soaring up the charts, lets check their lyrics:

" make um laugh and giggle
cuddle a little
suck on the nipple
lick the whip cream from the middle,
Girlfriend I neva go, (raw)
I rip off panties and pop off (bras)
Yea U.S.B.A.
ask around the block how freaky we, are
I drink Red Bull so I keep stamina
your on of your belly and bust yo brains"

4) last one - New chick getting mad airplay on the radio is called Ebony Eyez (cheap rip off of the black porn star ebony ayes): this is the chorus to her new song:

"now would you let me put my ass in ya face (in ya face)
(would you let me put my ass in ya face)
if i let you bend me over by the waist (by the waist)
(if i let you bend me over by the waist)"

- no white, asian, hispanic artists are blowing up the charts with lyrics like these. and you can count the number of slutty oversexual white female pop artists on one hand - whereas on the flipside you can count the number of fully clothed, intelligent respectful black female artists on the other...this is a reflection of the attitudes our present day community. we arent shocked or upset by these songs because they make money and also because this is just business as usual in our communities. this is HONESTLY how we talk/view one another...and it IS embarrassing, not because "white folks can see it" but because THE WORLD sees it.










  

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FireBrand
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Wed Jul-13-05 12:20 PM

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22. "I see your point. This is so different from say James Brown."
In response to Reply # 19
Wed Jul-13-05 12:21 PM by FireBrand

  

          

James Brown:

Get Up I Feel Like Being A Sex Machine


SHOUT: Fellas, I'm ready to get up and do my thing
I wanta get into it, man, you know...
Like a, like a sex machine, man,
Movin'... doin' it, you know
Can I count it off? (Go anead)

Spoken: one,two, three, four!!

Get up, get on up
Get up, get on up
Stay on the scene, like a sex machine

Wait a minute!
Shake your arm, then use your form
Stay on the scene like a sex machine
You got to have the feeling sure as you're born
Get it together right on, right on

Get up. get on up

I said the feeling you got to get
Give me the fever in a cold sweat
The way I like it is the way it is
I got mine and don't worry 'bout his

Get on up and then shake your money maker
Shake your money maker.....


______________Or maybe Rick James?__________________

Shes a very kinky girl
Shes a very kinky girl
Shes a very kinky girl
Shes a very kinky girl
Super freak Super freak
Super freak Super freak

She's a very kinky girl
The kind you don't take home to mother
She will never let your spirits down
Once you get her off the street, ow girl
She likes the boys in the band
She says that I'm her all-time favorite

When I make my move to her room it's the right time
She's never hard to please
ow now
That girl is pretty wild now
The girl's a super freak
The kind of girl you read about
In new-wave magazines
That girl is pretty kinky
The girl's a super freak
I really love to taste her
Every time we meet

She's all right, she's all right
That girl's all right with me, yeah
hay hay hay

She's a super freak, super freak
She's super-freaky, yow
Super freak, super freak

She's a very special girl
The kind of girl you want to know
From her head down to her toenails
Down to her feet, yeah

And she'll wait for me at backstage with her girlfriends
In a limousine
Going back in Chinatown
Three's not a crowd to her, she says
"Room 714, I'll be waiting"
When I get there she's got incense, wine and candles
It's such a freaky scene

Temptations sing!
Ohhhhh

Super freak, super freak
That girl's a super freak
Ohhhhh

She's a very kinky girl
The kind you don't take home to mother
She will never let your spirits down
Once you get her off the street, ow girl
Blow, Danny!





We on that carpetbaggin hustle in the '05-'06:

www.northernarc.net
www.sohlcollective.com
www.djvariable.net


Brooklynite by birth, Southern by the Grace of God.

  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
9433 posts
Wed Jul-13-05 12:28 PM

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25. "and this dude is a mod!?!?"
In response to Reply # 22
Wed Jul-13-05 12:32 PM by suave_bro

          

you are comparing a nigga saying "stick my dick in, take your thumb out" to rick james?!? james brown!?!?

  

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FireBrand
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Wed Jul-13-05 12:34 PM

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27. "No, I'm comparing the lyrics of one song to another."
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

Actually of the 3 examples/excerpt you provided against 2 of my own.

And they are comparable.

Again, you struggle with your fallacies.




We on that carpetbaggin hustle in the '05-'06:

www.northernarc.net
www.sohlcollective.com
www.djvariable.net


Brooklynite by birth, Southern by the Grace of God.

  

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Otto
Member since Dec 19th 2002
4624 posts
Wed Jul-13-05 12:39 PM

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31. " Firebrand,"
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

does that mean you are defending Rick James and James Brown? Certainly, if anything, those songs you have mentioned support the case of Suave_bro, and expose no fallacies...

-Otto

  

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FireBrand
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Wed Jul-13-05 12:43 PM

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34. "Are you putting arguements in my mouth? When I make"
In response to Reply # 31


  

          

an arguement you will certainly not have to ASK what my argument is.


We on that carpetbaggin hustle in the '05-'06:

www.northernarc.net
www.sohlcollective.com
www.djvariable.net


Brooklynite by birth, Southern by the Grace of God.

  

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Otto
Member since Dec 19th 2002
4624 posts
Wed Jul-13-05 12:46 PM

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37. "I am not putting words or arguments in your mouth..."
In response to Reply # 34


  

          

If you are not defending Rick James and James Brown's lyrics, what are you doing? It's a simple question, no need for a choleric response.

-Otto

  

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FireBrand
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Wed Jul-13-05 12:54 PM

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43. "I was pointing out the ridiculous nature of The poster's"
In response to Reply # 37


  

          

assertions that these lyrics with sexual content are a new wave. The two songs I posted are both considered classics and have been featured in commercials for children's clothing.

Sexual perversion is at root as American as apple pie, and if the artists are guilty then so is the society that created them. Because these artists are not indy artist making these records in their basement and distrubting them for free out the back of their trunks.

Parents are buying this stuff for their kids.
Companies are MARKETING this.
Industry is BUILT on these sales.

This is what the country wants and NEEDS to survive. SEX sells for a reason, in a capitalist market it is important to extend and expand marketability.

The best way to do this is to appeal to the Lowest common demonators of society: Fear, Sex, and acquistion/accumulation of status.


We on that carpetbaggin hustle in the '05-'06:

www.northernarc.net
www.sohlcollective.com
www.djvariable.net


Brooklynite by birth, Southern by the Grace of God.

  

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Otto
Member since Dec 19th 2002
4624 posts
Wed Jul-13-05 12:59 PM

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46. "I agree...."
In response to Reply # 43


  

          

and if the artists are guilty then so is the society that created them.

^^Like I said, it's due to a falling away from God and morality, which is evident over America's 229 year history.

I would say, though, as Suave_bro has suggested that the lyrics are mild...we have to draw the line somewhere.

Do you or do you not agree?

-Otto

  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
9433 posts
Wed Jul-13-05 12:59 PM

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47. "those songs are not sexually perverted though"
In response to Reply # 43


          

prince drew some fire for his song DARLING NIKKI back then because he said she was masturbating to a magazine...that was about as bad as it got during the time superfreak came out

james brown is singing about sticking your arm out? i mean if u actually READ those lyrics they are corny as fuck...hardly a song that makes folks wanna go out here and engage in reckless sexual activities.

the point is that rick james and james brown also put out classic material. they also made meaningful songs about love, romance, even touching on social issues (mr brown).

what social issues and meaningful memorable classics are ying yang gonna make? pretty rickey? some bitch named ebony eyes!? NONE!! they are gonna cash in on making songs about skeeting on bitches, licking whip cream off of people, and shoving ass in niggas faces...why? because the market for meaningful songs isn't there, EVEN FOR BLACK FOLKS. we wanna hear about shoving ass in peoples faces and skeeting on bitches with their thumbs in their mouths...lol. whats funny is that you KNOW this....

  

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FireBrand
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51. "slippery slope. n/m"
In response to Reply # 47


  

          


We on that carpetbaggin hustle in the '05-'06:

www.northernarc.net
www.sohlcollective.com
www.djvariable.net


Brooklynite by birth, Southern by the Grace of God.

  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
9433 posts
Wed Jul-13-05 01:05 PM

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53. "translation: I HAVE NO ARGUMENT"
In response to Reply # 51


          

  

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Otto
Member since Dec 19th 2002
4624 posts
Wed Jul-13-05 01:08 PM

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56. "LOL!"
In response to Reply # 53


  

          

-Otto

  

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FireBrand
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Wed Jul-13-05 01:13 PM

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59. "Translation: I gotta run, but ..."
In response to Reply # 53


  

          

and I haven't the time to break it down cus I gotta go to back to work.

Discussions like THESE are in in the archives, and are BETTER as I am not a scholar, just an opinionated person. There are people with better knowledge on these subjects in the archives I suggest reading them. This is a simple discussion that can get ya'll started:

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=22&topic_id=15456&mesg_id=15456&page=9


We on that carpetbaggin hustle in the '05-'06:

www.northernarc.net
www.sohlcollective.com
www.djvariable.net


Brooklynite by birth, Southern by the Grace of God.

  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
9433 posts
Wed Jul-13-05 12:39 PM

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32. "man u know those songs are mild"
In response to Reply # 27


          

compared to what is coming out today, and this is because black mentalities have changed, moral standards have lowered...james brown or rick james would never get on a record and say that shit pretty ricky is saying and if they did, OUR COMMUNITY would put them negroes in check...

if u were gonna come with this weak/elementary of an argument u should have just stayed on the sidelines...

  

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FireBrand
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Wed Jul-13-05 12:44 PM

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36. "They are mild using the cultural context of THAT DAY? shit."
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

You would feel comfortable with your young son or daughter singing those lyrics?

We on that carpetbaggin hustle in the '05-'06:

www.northernarc.net
www.sohlcollective.com
www.djvariable.net


Brooklynite by birth, Southern by the Grace of God.

  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
9433 posts
Wed Jul-13-05 12:54 PM

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42. "sex machine came out in 1970"
In response to Reply # 36


          

right @ the end of the sexual revolution, and what he was saying was timid even then. the song doesnt even have profanity in it!

rick james released superfreak (another song with no profanity in it) in 1982 and that song was mild as well...all of that stuff is suggestive none of it is lewd and lascivious...u are REAAAAAAAAALY stretching man.

  

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FireBrand
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Wed Jul-13-05 12:56 PM

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44. "you would feel comfortable with your son or daughter"
In response to Reply # 42
Wed Jul-13-05 12:56 PM by FireBrand

  

          

singing those lyrics?

That content is EVERY bit as disturbing to ME in that regard as a ying yang twinz song.

We on that carpetbaggin hustle in the '05-'06:

www.northernarc.net
www.sohlcollective.com
www.djvariable.net


Brooklynite by birth, Southern by the Grace of God.

  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
9433 posts
Wed Jul-13-05 01:05 PM

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52. "im done."
In response to Reply # 44


          

>singing those lyrics?
>
>That content is EVERY bit as disturbing to ME in that regard
>as a ying yang twinz song.

- this nigga just said that rick james superfreak and james browns sex machines lyrics are "disturbing"..man im done.

and to answer your question, no - if I saw a little girl singing those lyrics, i would probably think it was cute. the lyrics are suggestive but not lewd and demeaning.

  

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Otto
Member since Dec 19th 2002
4624 posts
Wed Jul-13-05 01:10 PM

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58. "Fellas, what would you say if I asked that we got back on track?"
In response to Reply # 52


  

          

with the real subject at hand...We all three agree that the lyrics are perverted. So, back to firebrand's question...Why would a society, in general, condone such lyrics? Further, why are white people buying them at a higher rate, as well...

-Otto

  

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FireBrand
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60. "That is just sick."
In response to Reply # 52


  

          


We on that carpetbaggin hustle in the '05-'06:

www.northernarc.net
www.sohlcollective.com
www.djvariable.net


Brooklynite by birth, Southern by the Grace of God.

  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
9433 posts
Wed Jul-13-05 01:19 PM

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61. "this!? coming from YOU!?!?"
In response to Reply # 60
Wed Jul-13-05 01:20 PM by suave_bro

          

you wont even comment on Ayaan Hirsi Ali and the murder of Theo Van Gogh, and YOU, or all people have the nerve to talk about what u think is DISGUSTING in regards to the sexualization/degradation of women!?!?

stop now man. u are running out of hoe cards for me to pull.

  

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FireBrand
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63. "huh? are you posting red herrings again?"
In response to Reply # 61


  

          

Damn you need a logic and critical thinking class post stat.


We on that carpetbaggin hustle in the '05-'06:

www.northernarc.net
www.sohlcollective.com
www.djvariable.net


Brooklynite by birth, Southern by the Grace of God.

  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
9433 posts
Wed Jul-13-05 01:26 PM

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64. "i took practical reasoning a year ago"
In response to Reply # 63


          

but i need a brush up: what is it called when somebody is backed into a corner because of their weak arguments, refuses to answer questions, and when called out on their hypocrisy, critisizes the other person who brought the argument for making falacies in their argument instead of at least FIRST responding to them and THEN pointing out their errors? help me out here.

  

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FireBrand
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65. "I dunno, but that post I just responded too? that shit was"
In response to Reply # 64


  

          

apples and oranges and red herring all over it. U can't respond to bullshit like that, you gotta ask the person to rephrase the question.


We on that carpetbaggin hustle in the '05-'06:

www.northernarc.net
www.sohlcollective.com
www.djvariable.net


Brooklynite by birth, Southern by the Grace of God.

  

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MALACHI
Member since Jan 22nd 2003
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67. "I see the point you are making suave, and I"
In response to Reply # 52
Wed Jul-13-05 02:13 PM by MALACHI

  

          

agree 100% that James Brown, and even FREAKY Rick James don't belong in the same category as the fools mentioned earlier, BUT THIS:

>- this nigga just said that rick james superfreak and james
>browns sex machines lyrics are "disturbing"..man im done.
>
>and to answer your question, no - if I saw a little girl
>singing those lyrics, i would probably think it was cute. the
>lyrics are suggestive but not lewd and demeaning.

is simply because you don't HAVE a little girl yet...but if I hear my little girl singing "Sex Machine" or "Superfreak" (as tame as these songs are by today's standards), I'm going CRAZY. The biggest argument my wife and I have had this year was a few months ago when that new Mariah Carey came out, and I heard my 2 and a half year-old girl singing the lyrics to that first single...the line that goes something like "you wan't this, and you know it..."

I. WENT. TOTALLY. OFF.

"Is it not one father that all of us have? Is it not one God that has created us? Why is it that we deal treacherously with one another?" --Malachi 2:10

  

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Otto
Member since Dec 19th 2002
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68. "Two years old and singing?"
In response to Reply # 67


  

          

Your daughter must be the next Charlotte Church...

point is, she's prolly a genius.

What have you done, or are you doing to instill the value of education in your daughter? What things can the black community do?

-Otto

  

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Shakeet Lokh Em
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"The Bible."
Wed Jul-13-05 03:06 PM by Shakeet Lokh Em

  

          

n/m

"I'm scientific, but my reflex gangsta"- Black Thought

  

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Otto
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76. "cosign..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

-Otto

  

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LexM
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121. "*pumps brakes*"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

gotta come more universal than that, bruh.

everything ain't for everybody.

and that's all i'll say on that.

  

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Otto
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122. "Nothing is more universal than God!"
In response to Reply # 121


  

          

He created the universe, and he is infinite -- as is the universe.

Just becasue someone doesn't recognize the Bible as God's word, does not mean it is not God's word, and does not mean it is any less of a remedy...

It is a remedy. It is THE remedy.

-Otto

  

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LexM
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125. "i don't wanna start this argument"
In response to Reply # 122
Fri Jul-15-05 02:55 PM by LexM

  

          

god is everywhere, i agree.

however, the bible is one book written in several different forms several thousand years ago by god-knows-how-many people.

what we consider "the bible" today is only a fraction of what it was before a (largely) european power struggle determined what was & wasn't "holy" enough to make it in.

and a good bit of *that* was forged to make the pieces fit.

i won't even talk about what women have had to endure due to this belief system.

is there truth in it? of course. but no one has a monopoly on truth.

spirituality--and god, imo--is about growth & expansion. not dogma & domination. again, if it works for you, more power. there are many paths, but only one universe.

if you wanna swing this back around to the topic at hand, blk ppl are beginning to realize that, on one end of the spectrum, they need a liberation theology. on the other end, there is a total rejection of christianity--which is not to say some kind of lawless heathenism. just other, more traditional ways of belief.

religion does not equal moral behavior.
atheism does not equal immorality.

the socioeconomic issues you're asking about are all much, much bigger than that.

~~~~
~*~musical revolution~*~

"The world was warned about this...The CIA calls what happened in London today "blowback." It is wrong, it is heinous, it is murder plain and simple, and it was as predictable as the sun rising in the East." ~Wm Rivers Pitt

  

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Otto
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131. "God has a monopoly on truth...and there is only one TRUE path..."
In response to Reply # 125


  

          


"Narrow is the gate and straight is the way" (C) Jesus.

"I am the way, the truth and the life, that no man comes unto the father but trough me." (C) Jesus.

By saying there is a movement away from christianity, in the same breath that you conceed there are deep social problems in the Black community, you attest to the verity of Shakeet's and my point--

The Bible is the only remedy.

There are deep social problems in the white community as well--
the same prescrption of God's word, is there too...


-Otto

  

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LexM
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132. "ok."
In response to Reply # 131
Fri Jul-15-05 03:50 PM by LexM

  

          

i don't argue when ppl go here. and that's actually *not* what i was getting at. you misunderstood my point.

if that's where you are, cool.

but we're not gonna get anywhere on that level.

so on to the next....

  

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14thLight
Member since Apr 30th 2005
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144. "Do you mean"
In response to Reply # 131


          


>The Bible is the only remedy.

Are you asserting that the Bible as in the book of "holy" christian scriptures is the only remedy to peoples ills? What about the Qur'an, The Torah, or whatever holy book or practice folk subscribe to? Do you assert that Christianity is the only thing that will improve folks?



_______________________________________
"When I use the word 'love', I am not making an attempt at rhetoric. I am attempting to express a refulgent, unrestrained emanation from the most durable region of my soul..." -George Jackson "Soledad Brother"

  

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MALACHI
Member since Jan 22nd 2003
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79. "Thanks man...I don't know about genius,"
In response to Reply # 68


  

          

but she is pretty smart for two...and my five year-old son has a pretty decent head on his shoulders as well.

> What have you done, or are you doing to instill the value of
>education in your daughter? What things can the black
>community do?

Basically, man I just try to raise my children like my parents raised me and my siblings.

When my wife was pregnant (with both of my kids) from the time she started to "show", I read to my kids almost every night in the womb...a practice that continues until this day. Instead of buying them toys all the time, I get them books. Despite the fact that my children are only in pre-school / day care, they watch NO television on weeknights. (The only exception is if there is a documentary on The Animal Planet or The Discovery Channel or that we will watch together.) We taught my son the alphabet when he was 2-3, and shortly after my daughter turned 2, we planned on doing the same thing...until we found out MY SON had already taught her! (Each one, teach one) Plus, my kids SEE us reading all the time, so I guess naturally they want to read as well.

We also are serious about letting our children experience things that stimulate a desire to learn...things like going to the zoo, going to the aquarium, going to museums, etc.

Another thing we did for our children from an early age is played them Duke Ellington and Nat King Cole c.d.s, as well as classical music when they were infants...I read a long time ago that when very young children listen to orchestrated music, it aids in critical thinking, deductive logic, and general thinking ability.

And the most important thing we do as a family is have a weekly family Bible study, and attend Bible study classes together as a family as well.

The bottom line is instilling discipline in your kids, and setting a proper example that they can see.


PEACE




"Is it not one father that all of us have? Is it not one God that has created us? Why is it that we deal treacherously with one another?" --Malachi 2:10

  

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Otto
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81. "I feel like clapping man,"
In response to Reply # 79


  

          

We taught my son the alphabet when he was 2-3, and shortly after my daughter turned 2, we planned on doing the same thing...until we found out MY SON had already taught her! (Each one, teach one)

^^^That is amazing. I agree totally with what you said about classical/jazz music...things like the zoo that promote intellectual curiosity, reading, and the Bible. These are all things I have been planning to do with my children.

Props man,

-Otto

  

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Shakeet Lokh Em
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84. "Can you adopt my family? lol n/m"
In response to Reply # 79


  

          

"I'm scientific, but my reflex gangsta"- Black Thought

  

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Otto
Member since Dec 19th 2002
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23. "These lyrics are appalling, and give"
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

black people a bad name -- that is one catalyst to the tension between our races, i think.

-Otto

  

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FireBrand
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24. "You can't be serious."
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

These are worse than John Lee Hooker lyrics can be?

Wow.

Ya'll are demented.


We on that carpetbaggin hustle in the '05-'06:

www.northernarc.net
www.sohlcollective.com
www.djvariable.net


Brooklynite by birth, Southern by the Grace of God.

  

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Otto
Member since Dec 19th 2002
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28. "John Lee Hooker is ONE ARTIST...."
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

who, I have never even heard. The artists Suave_Bro has mentioned are a few, in a sea of many who sing the same tune, no pun intended. And they are TOP 40!!!! There is a huge difference between John Lee Hooker and Marilyn Manson as minorities in their respective genres of music, and R. Kelly and Ebony Eyez, as just another mainstream hip hop act. Suave_bro is saying that in order to even get air time these days at a hip hop station, you have to have the word dick or pussy in your hook.

-Otto

  

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FireBrand
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33. "If you don't know who John Lee Hooker is, stop commenting."
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

PLEASE.

In fact, don't ever comment on shit u don't know about. Ask questions, yes- reasearch.

But don't comment.

U really make a bafoon of yourself when you do.


We on that carpetbaggin hustle in the '05-'06:

www.northernarc.net
www.sohlcollective.com
www.djvariable.net


Brooklynite by birth, Southern by the Grace of God.

  

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Otto
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39. "No, I don't make anything of myself...."
In response to Reply # 33
Wed Jul-13-05 12:50 PM by Otto

  

          

when I did ask you a question earlier, you rejected it, so how do you suppose I "ask questions" as you have said, if you aren't going to answer them...Contextual analysis. If you say "those lyrics are worse than John Lee Hooker's lyrics can be?" that means his lyrics were bad. I said hooker was one artist, my point still stands....


-Otto

  

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FireBrand
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50. "The fuck are you talking about?"
In response to Reply # 39


  

          

>when I did ask you a question earlier, you rejected it,

WHEN? I rejected the QUESTION itself, or the basis of the question?
Be clear.

so
>how do you suppose I "ask questions" as you have said, if you
>aren't going to answer them...

How can I answer a question that can't be answered. You asked me if I was condoning something I never said I condoned. How is that a valid fucking question? That's like asking me how I built this computer when I didn't build it. The fuck am I supposed to say?


Contextual analysis. If you say
>"those lyrics are worse than John Lee Hooker's lyrics can be?"
>that means his lyrics were bad.

Does it? or does it mean that the lyrics in question are in fact worse than the Potential of John Lee Hooker's lyrics?
Are you aiight?


I said hooker was one artist,
>my point still stands....


No, it doesn't. John Lee Hooker helped DEFINE a Genre, and until you can understand that you have no point.




We on that carpetbaggin hustle in the '05-'06:

www.northernarc.net
www.sohlcollective.com
www.djvariable.net


Brooklynite by birth, Southern by the Grace of God.

  

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Otto
Member since Dec 19th 2002
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55. "RE: The fuck are you talking about?"
In response to Reply # 50


  

          

and I quote:

"does that mean you are defending Rick James and James Brown?"

It was a simple question, and you said: "When I make an agrument, you will not have to ask" what it is about...

You rejected the question...

But this is a superfluous tangent, let's stop.

-Otto

  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
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Wed Jul-13-05 12:31 PM

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26. "i dont know if u are being serious or not"
In response to Reply # 23


          

but i want to emphasize that these lyrics aren't just for entertainment or show. it is merely a reflection of the mentalities within our community.

niggas ACTUALLY DO think of black women the way they do in these videos and in these songs, this is why we are just fuckin' em, getting them pregnant without really knowing who they are or half the time what their last names are, and moving on to the next broad...if she gets pregnant oh well!

and this can be applied to rappers who rap about cooking up dope and killing/murdering each other too...gucci mayne who has one of the hottest (and dumbest) songs out right now is trying to beat a murder charge as we speak...

  

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Otto
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29. "Yeah, but certainly not all black people"
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

think that way. Take you, for instance. Would you agree that these songs give you, as a black man, a bad name. Couldn't there be a black leader who urges blacks against this lyrical trash? Or has there already been...

-Otto

  

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FireBrand
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30. "They think of women this way? I wonder why? what coud be"
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

The roots?

we are looking for root causations are we not? Well, why stop short? Shallow logic/reasoning would add up to placing a band aid on a bullet wound, no?

Didn't certain communities shun: Ragtime then Blues, Jazz, Rock and Roll, then Hip Hop all because of "content"?

if this is true, what is the SOURCE of these feelings? If it began with ragtime, then it must be an older source, no?

Hmmm...

are you courageous enough to delve into this? Or is it the helpless blackman who can't keep music from creating his reality's fault AGAIN?

Is music the black man's Matrix?

If it's simply a REFLECTION of attitudes in the community, and roots to these very attitdues predate the Hip Hop era, and the Rock and Roll era...

WHERE on earth did the come from, brotha?


We on that carpetbaggin hustle in the '05-'06:

www.northernarc.net
www.sohlcollective.com
www.djvariable.net


Brooklynite by birth, Southern by the Grace of God.

  

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Otto
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35. "Good questions....."
In response to Reply # 30


  

          

Social evolution.

But there comes a point where evolution becomes degeneration...
For instance, Shakespeare frequently spoke of sexual things--but the manner in which he expressed his desire, was lovely--which is to say, based on love. From the dusty Adam and eve days, to you know, the rennaisance which celebrated art, illustrates cultural and human evolution. Sex is a natural and wonderful thing, but should only be a product of love...But what has happened is the nobility of sex in the context of love, and even marriage has degenerated to "I wanna put my ass on ya face..."

-Otto

  

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FireBrand
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38. "And what do u feel has been the catalyst for such change?"
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

?


We on that carpetbaggin hustle in the '05-'06:

www.northernarc.net
www.sohlcollective.com
www.djvariable.net


Brooklynite by birth, Southern by the Grace of God.

  

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Otto
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41. "a falling away from"
In response to Reply # 38


  

          

God...

-Otto

  

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FireBrand
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73. "This is a great point."
In response to Reply # 41


  

          

Falling away from God, Morality, and community mores being a central part of interpersonal relations.

And why is this?


We on that carpetbaggin hustle in the '05-'06:

www.northernarc.net
www.sohlcollective.com
www.djvariable.net


Brooklynite by birth, Southern by the Grace of God.

  

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Otto
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77. "Well,"
In response to Reply # 73
Wed Jul-13-05 03:34 PM by Otto

  

          

we've grown apathetic. I think, in the white community as well, God is not seen as a necessity--Only when our country was struggling for her soverignty was God a moral imperative. But God had transcended the ages of American conscious until about the 1960's. My dad, a preacher, said it best. In the fifties, whole families went to church. In the sixties, parents dropped their kids off. In the seventies, and today, kids have never opened the Bible. I think it has something to do with the decline of family, which seems like we are going in circles. Most likely, God has just been taken out of the spotlight, and self glorification combined with vanity has become the endemic American impetus of the day. In all reality, the family is crumbling becasue mommies and daddies tend to make each other the center of their relationship. Since people change, this is detrimental. If God were the center--being that God does not change, I think we'd see a decline in divorce rates as opposed to the decline of the family.

-Otto

  

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pascal
Member since Mar 30th 2005
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90. "RE: Well,"
In response to Reply # 77


  

          

i think it's a bit redundant to only seek the answer in god. i have a lot of friends who are very serious about the responsibilities that they have towards other people without being religious. if you don't believe in god and you decided to do so because you've thought about it, not because you are just not interested or just don't care, you've made a decision to take responsibility for your life all the way. and i think that this can give you an awareness for the way you depend on other people, on the necessity to treat others as you want to be treated.
education is important.
respect is important.
respect for the opposite sex is important.
god is a tool to achive certain values in life. not more and not less. and there are other tools, other paragons you can choose.



............................

no sig available...try again later

  

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Otto
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103. "I totally disagree.There is no paragon"
In response to Reply # 90


  

          

There is no paragon of morality more supreme than God. You say that such a life is possible aside from God, but this is the same mentality as all of those in society who buy the records and live the lifesyles portrayed and glorified in the music. Their parents thought morality was possible aside from God, so they stopped instilling a belief and fear of God in their children...From that point in time, our society has gone down hill, falling away from virtue. We are probably one of the most Godless generations in American History...all becasue we thought we knew better than God--who created us, in fact. I respect your opinion, but in my opinion there really is no room for compromise on such a topic...Like that old cliche goes, give an inch and they take a mile.

-Otto



  

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veggies2hiphop
Member since Oct 26th 2004
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Thu Jul-14-05 01:02 PM

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110. "RE: I totally disagree.There is no paragon"
In response to Reply # 103


          

You cannot be that closed minded about people and morality. I am buddhist. i do not believe in god. i and other buddhist live a very moral live without having to fear a higher power. We live our life based on cause and effect and working towards the happiness of ourselves and other and towards world peace. We do not need strick rules and fear to enforce our morality.

  

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Otto
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113. "You are closed minded about this,"
In response to Reply # 110
Thu Jul-14-05 01:52 PM by Otto

  

          

meaning you are resolute, and have made up your mind:

>>We do not need strick rules and fear to enforce our morality.

and this

>>i do not believe in god


....I am resolute in my assertation that there is no morality aside from God. I have not asked you to change what you believe, I was merely stating what I believe...

peace

-Otto

  

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Shakeet Lokh Em
Member since Mar 22nd 2005
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114. "RE: I totally disagree.There is no paragon"
In response to Reply # 110


  

          

"I am buddhist. i do not believe in god. i and other buddhist live a very moral live without having to fear a higher power."

Is not the Prophet Buddha worshipped as a god in your faith? He may not be directly or categorically looked upon as a "god". But are there not idols of him in your temples? In stone or metal? That's idol worship. Thereby making him a 'god'. Prophet or not. I'm not attacking your faith by no means. But it would be better to say you do not recognize the Christian or Islamic 'God'. And that you recognize Buddha as the All Supreme.

"I'm scientific, but my reflex gangsta"- Black Thought

  

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Otto
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Thu Jul-14-05 03:17 PM

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115. "very astute rebuttle, Shakeet"
In response to Reply # 114


  

          

-Otto

  

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LexM
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Fri Jul-15-05 03:36 PM

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129. "no it wasn't."
In response to Reply # 115
Fri Jul-15-05 03:45 PM by LexM

  

          

both of you are evaluating a totally different religion based on your cultural constructs.

first of all, s/he didn't mention what tradition s/he follows. that was your first mistake. buddha is no more than a master teacher in some sects, and more "godlike" in others.

on the other hand, the conception of buddha as a spiritual figure is far more complex than the usual western dichotomy of god vs. man.

western & eastern spiritual thought are worlds away from one another, and you can't compare the two on the same philosophical terms. certain things don't translate that simply.

this is *exactly* the kind of thinking that caused europeans to run roughshod over 95% of the belief systems/religions they encountered when they started their world "exploration". yet another root of the problem you don't seem to have grasped yet.

see thich nhat hanh & get back to me: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1573225681/qid=1121459558/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/002-1433717-2637662?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

~~~~
~*~musical revolution~*~

"The world was warned about this...The CIA calls what happened in London today "blowback." It is wrong, it is heinous, it is murder plain and simple, and it was as predictable as the sun rising in the East." ~Wm Rivers Pitt

  

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Otto
Member since Dec 19th 2002
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Fri Jul-15-05 03:51 PM

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133. "Unless you follow your own statement:"
In response to Reply # 129


  

          

>both of you are evaluating a totally different religion based on your >cultural constructs...first of all, s/he didn't mention what >tradition s/he follows. that was your first mistake.

...and find out what tradition of buddhism the poster follows, you, yourself you have no real basis for refuting shakeet's point.

You don't seem to understand that Money is a god for many people...some people think potatoes are god...

the teachings of buddha, if one holds them to be divine truths, sacred above all other teachings, well, that person holds the teachings as a god....



-Otto

  

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LexM
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135. "huh???"
In response to Reply # 133
Fri Jul-15-05 04:05 PM by LexM

  

          

>>both of you are evaluating a totally different religion
>based on your >cultural constructs...first of all, s/he didn't
>mention what >tradition s/he follows. that was your first
>mistake.
>
>...and find out what tradition of buddhism the poster follows,
>you, yourself you have no real basis for refuting shakeet's
>point.

i do have a basis. i was pointing out that buddhism was just as multi-dimensional as christianity, and that he shouldn't assume that the poster sees buddha as "god".

did you even read the REST of what i said?

in other words, his argument only holds weight from a "christian" point of view.

>You don't seem to understand that Money is a god for many
>people...some people think potatoes are god...

*sigh* just for the sake of argument, i understand what you're getting at.

my point is that what a "god" is can be defined very differently depending on where you stand.

case in point: ppl mistaking ancestor veneration in africa for ancestor *worship*. it's a far more complex cosmology than that.

or mistaking different manifestations of monotheism for polytheism.


>the teachings of buddha, if one holds them to be divine
>truths, sacred above all other teachings, well, that person
>holds the teachings as a god....

from what i've read of buddhist texts and heard from buddhists themselves, that's not (necessarily) what they believe. the buddha's teachings are a step towards enlightenment.

you can practice whatever way you like...the point is to use the teachings as stepping stones towards/on the right path.

you can even go to church, participate in other, non-buddhist rituals, etc. the point is the path, not the dogma.

the overall effect is similar to hindu thought: many paths, one god.

again, because you're steeped in the boundaries of your truth, this type of argument is pointless. you're only going to draw from derivations of one source.

~~~~
~*~musical revolution~*~

"The world was warned about this...The CIA calls what happened in London today "blowback." It is wrong, it is heinous, it is murder plain and simple, and it was as predictable as the sun rising in the East." ~Wm Rivers Pitt

  

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Otto
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Fri Jul-15-05 04:56 PM

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136. "i agree with this:"
In response to Reply # 135


  

          

etc. the point is the path, not the dogma.


^^^No one is talking about dogma here. All I said was Jesus is the way...

-Otto

  

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LexM
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143. "there's a lesson in this."
In response to Reply # 136


  

          

dog·ma
n. pl. dog·mas or dog·ma·ta (-m-t)
1. A doctrine or a corpus of doctrines relating to matters such as morality and faith, set forth in an authoritative manner by a church.

2. An authoritative principle, belief, or statement of ideas or opinion, especially one considered to be absolutely true. See Synonyms at doctrine.

3. A principle or belief or a group of them: “The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present” (Abraham Lincoln).

"jesus is the way" is a dogmatic belief.

...but anyway, part of my point is that if you can't step outside your skin long enough to "see" buddhism in a different way, it's gonna be rough to step outside of said skin understand racism, too. especially in a culture where you're not the target.

what you're proposing is years in the making.

  

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pascal
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119. "RE: I totally disagree.There is no paragon"
In response to Reply # 103
Fri Jul-15-05 08:07 AM by pascal

  

          

i think the most important thing to accept any form of morality is reason. there are lots of people who are christians and they still act VERY immoral.
............................

no sig available...try again later

  

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Otto
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Fri Jul-15-05 12:49 PM

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120. "i agree...."
In response to Reply # 119


  

          

but the reason their actions are immoral as Christains, is becasue is goes against God's injunctions...

-Otto

  

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pascal
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146. "pffffff..."
In response to Reply # 120


  

          

this is not an argument for it is only referring to it's own constricted context....

  

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pascal
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147. "pffffff..."
In response to Reply # 120


  

          

this is not an argument for it is only referring to it's own constricted context....

  

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Otto
Member since Dec 19th 2002
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Thu Jul-21-05 12:19 PM

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148. "Your definition of morality must then be"
In response to Reply # 147


  

          

inaccurate if you don't think this is an agugment. It is very much an argument, I am sorry you cannot see that.

-Otto

  

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dorkski
Member since May 23rd 2002
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Fri Jul-15-05 05:38 PM

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137. "RE: Good questions....."
In response to Reply # 35


          

Um... You should check your shakespeare again. Often, if not always, the bard was skeptical of notions like love--not surprisingly in a historical context in which romantic unions were largely overdetermined by economic and political structures. If we look at the most overripe and oft mentioned love story Romeo and Juliet it is apparent that the protagonists' "love" is whimsical and fleeting as well as dangerous. If you are looking for more genuine relationships in Shakespeare I'd check the male ones i.e. Romeo and Mercucio, The Two Noble Kinsman etc. This is not to embrace a Shakespeare is gay argument but to suggest that representations of sexual relationships, elegant or otherwise, can be very complex once you take into account narrative, irony, metaphor and other figurative tactics.

To relate this to your condemnation of explicit lyrics, the urge to purge is problematic. The examples of James Brown and Rick James boils down to how direct the language is and the only answer to such a criticism seems to be censorship. Put another way, the objectification of women in the form of vulgar language does not seem, neccessarily, any more damaging than when it is manifested as the content of inocuous love songs about possessing or having possessed a female love object--both render women the property of men. This is not to say that there are no differences or that these differences do not matter but simply condemning bad language seems to miss the point.

  

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Otto
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138. "Your response is incredibly pretentious."
In response to Reply # 137
Fri Jul-15-05 05:46 PM by Otto

  

          


Romeo and Juliet is ONE example. Try the sonnets, my friend.

And, i do believe you missed the point....

-Otto

  

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Otto
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Fri Jul-15-05 05:47 PM

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139. "If he was indeed skeptical of love,"
In response to Reply # 138


  

          

Consider the fact that he was looking for genuine love, as opposed to the all too blinding infatuation.

This supports what I was saying in regard to modern music.

There is nothing about real love.

-Otto

  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
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Wed Jul-13-05 12:50 PM

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40. "like i said before"
In response to Reply # 30


          

- u need to go sit over on the sidelines...

>we are looking for root causations are we not? Well, why stop
>short? Shallow logic/reasoning would add up to placing a band
>aid on a bullet wound, no?

- the roots started in the 70's with the break up of the family. if u take fathers out of every home on this planet, u would probably see the same symptoms that we see in our communities throughout the entire planet.

>Didn't certain communities shun: Ragtime then Blues, Jazz,
>Rock and Roll, then Hip Hop all because of "content"?

- absolutely. but when, in the history of mankind, has it been acceptable to say "HEY BITCH WAIT TIL U SEE MY DICK" on record? and why is it so popular amongst black folks? and dont give me that "white folks buy the albums" bullshit.

>if this is true, what is the SOURCE of these feelings? If it
>began with ragtime, then it must be an older source, no?

- *sigh*...if im not mistaken, white people argued that this was devils music. that the drums and musical arrangements made people swivel their hips and dance sexy. but this was also around the time people didnt kiss on their first date either. now people are fucking without even having met each other before....


>are you courageous enough to delve into this? Or is it the
>helpless blackman who can't keep music from creating his
>reality's fault AGAIN?

- i cant believe they made this gimp a mod. I'll say it as many times as need be for you little yellow bus riding muthafuckas: the music is a reflection of the mentalities - u wont see asians, middle easterners or omish people getting on record saying these things and puting out videos like we do. why? because their cultures/values dont reflect that type of lifestyle. and they probably have a little bit more respect and love for themselves and their women too...


>WHERE on earth did the come from, brotha?

- simply. the break down of the family. this didnt start until the 70's with the white feminist movement and welfare...i wont go so far as to say that black women are to blame for the problems in our community, but i will say that they proved that it cant be done ALONE and done RIGHT. but u ask that question as though there has been a time in history when it was cool to refer to our women as bitches and hoes on a regular basis, leave them to raise the babies 7 out of 10 times, glorify bisexuality in our women...tell u what, go ask your grandparents if this was the black community that they grew up with and come back with your answer.

  

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FireBrand
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45. "The break down of the family for Africans certainly was the 70's"
In response to Reply # 40


  

          

The 1770's perhaps.


We on that carpetbaggin hustle in the '05-'06:

www.northernarc.net
www.sohlcollective.com
www.djvariable.net


Brooklynite by birth, Southern by the Grace of God.

  

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Otto
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48. "Not according to Sunngold (forgive me if i spelled it wrong)"
In response to Reply # 45


  

          

-Otto

  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
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49. "see post #13"
In response to Reply # 45


          

  

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FireBrand
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54. "See the ARCHIVES. nm"
In response to Reply # 49


  

          


We on that carpetbaggin hustle in the '05-'06:

www.northernarc.net
www.sohlcollective.com
www.djvariable.net


Brooklynite by birth, Southern by the Grace of God.

  

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Otto
Member since Dec 19th 2002
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Wed Jul-13-05 12:17 PM

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21. "there is so much to say in response....it will take a long time"
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

and i intend to reply to most everything...But this:

"slavery, jim crowe, police beatings, cop shot black youth, slavery some more, jim crowe some more"...how do u expect black youth (who will one day become black ADULTS) to thrive in droves if most of them believe that they wont ever be shit or achieve shit outside of sports/gang banging/rapping?


...is what I have been getting at for a while...you cannot move forward, if you are looking backward. I say that out of love!

-Otto

  

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Nettrice
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Wed Jul-13-05 11:59 AM

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15. "LaLee's Kin"
In response to Reply # 0
Wed Jul-13-05 12:00 PM by Nettrice

  

          

More from the web site:

"LaLee's Kin continues the tradition, taking us deep into the Mississippi Delta and the intertwined lives of Lalee Wallace, a great-grandmother struggling to hold her world together in the face of dire poverty, and Reggie Barnes, superintendent of the embattled West Tallahatchie school system. Through the technique of direct cinema, pioneered in the 1960s as a way to bring real-life stories to audiences with unprecedented intimacy, LaLee's Kin explores the painful legacy of slavery and sharecropping in the Delta.

62-year old LaLee Wallace is the lifeblood of this film. Matriarch to an extended family that moves in and out of her house, LaLee is a woman of contradictions and hope. "Could have been worse," she says quietly, surveying the rat- and roach-infested trailer she has been granted through a government program after her own house was condemned. The electricity on this new trailer doesn't work and there is no running water. She receives a monthly disability check and earns a negligible seasonal income cooking meals for workers at nearby cotton gins. Still, she is glad to be out of the fields.

Wallace grew up in a family of sharecroppers; she began picking cotton at the age of six, stopped attending school a few years later, and still cannot read. As happened throughout the South, sharecropping gave way to low-paid labor, but with the enforcement of minimum wage laws and increasing mechanization, even those jobs were hard to come by. Without education or skills, Wallace and other residents of Tallahatchie County had few options, and the poverty and hopelessness they felt was passed down to the generations that followed.

The film also profiles educator Reggie Barnes, who is determined to stop this cycle. Barnes was hired as Superintendent of Schools in West Tallahatchie in an effort to get the school district off probation, where it was placed by the Mississippi Department of Education because of poor student performance on statewide standardized tests (the Iowa Test for Basic Skills, ITBS). If Barnes fails to raise the school from its current Level 1 status to a Level 2, the state of Mississippi has threatened to take it over. Barnes and his faculty oppose this, fearing that administrators in far-off Jackson would not do as well in addressing the special needs of their community. "It's a different world," he says. "We get kids in kindergarten who don't know their names; we get kids in kindergarten who don't know colors; we gets kids in kindergarten who've never been read to." He adds, "If we can educate the children of the illiterate parent, we stop the vicious cycle." As committed as he is, Barnes is frustrated by the lack of resources and the Catch 22 of obtaining them: schools depend on local taxes for support, but it's hard to attract industry to an area when the schools are failing.

Producer/director Susan Froemke and cinematographer Albert Maysles spent weeks at a time in West Tallahatchie, filming over the course of two school years. Seventy-five hours of footage were then shaped in the editing room by Froemke and editor/director Deborah Dickson. In the tradition of direct cinema, there is no narration and no academic analysis: just real life, marked by joy, frustration, and above all, effort. Ordinary events become insurmountable, as when LaLee registers Gregory (nicknamed "Redman"), the grandson she has raised, for kindergarten. She is given a list of items the students are expected to have on the first day of school, including writing supplies, paper towels, and crayons. She conveys this information to her granddaughter "San," whose children -- first grader Antonio (called "Main") and sixth grader Cassandra (called "Granny"), are mostly in LaLee's care. The next afternoon, in one of the film's most heartbreaking scenes, LaLee discovers that neither Granny nor Main made it to school, because their mother didn't have money for paper or pencils.

Granny is this film's Cinderella, a bright, inquisitive girl limited by circumstances to a life of childcare and housework, with little time for school. During the filming, she engineers her own escape, asking her paternal grandfather to take her in. Through him and through her paternal grandmother, Granny begins to thrive in Memphis; she joyfully celebrates her birthday with friends her own age, is proud to earn a B+ average in school, and for the first time, envisions a future for herself as a college-educated nurse. But her hopes may be dashed because her mother calls her home to help out with her siblings.

Back in West Tallahatchie, Reggie Barnes continues to serve as educator, administrator, and head cheerleader for his troubled schools. Finally, his persistence pays off: student scores rise, and after five years, the West Talahatchie School District is taken off probation. Students and teachers are jubilant, but Barnes is cautious: passing the standardized test and becoming educated are two different things. Still, he is optimistic for these children of the Mississippi Delta: "Somebody's got to believe that things are going to get better," he says." - http://www.laleeskin.com/synopsis.html

This is 2001, not 1960...and don't think it's just in Mississippi.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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sunngodd
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17. "I saw that a couple years ago"
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

That's really a sad movie. It's an extreme example of what can happen when poverty and a breakdown of the family structure intersect.

-----------------------
"What shall we do with the negro?" I have had but one answer from the beginning. Do nothing with us! Your doing with us has already played the mischief with us...if the negro cannot stand on his own legs, let him fall - Frederick Douglass

  

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Nettrice
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70. "Not sad at all..."
In response to Reply # 17
Wed Jul-13-05 02:30 PM by Nettrice

  

          

LaLee's Kin is about hope and how we managed to survive in spite of conditions. Our "family structure" was broken down with the middle passage and slavery. The film highlights how the effects of slavery and sharecropping have prevented one community from coming out of poverty. There are communities like this all over the U.S. and still people choose to look no further than their front yard. It's like folks have blinders on or something. Ignorance.

The film also shows people doing something in their community to create lasting change and the obstacles they face. It's about hope.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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sunngodd
Member since Feb 20th 2003
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Thu Jul-14-05 08:44 AM

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94. "Wrong"
In response to Reply # 70


  

          

>LaLee's Kin is about hope and how we managed to survive in
>spite of conditions. Our "family structure" was broken down
>with the middle passage and slavery.

see post 13. This is a common misconception, and it's simply not true. Herbert G. Gutman showed that the Black Family remained strong throughout as well as after slavery. Granted, the black family has never been "Leave it to Beaver," but it has deteriorated now worse then it's ever been in history.

The film highlights how
>the effects of slavery and sharecropping have prevented one
>community from coming out of poverty. There are communities
>like this all over the U.S. and still people choose to look no
>further than their front yard. It's like folks have blinders
>on or something. Ignorance.

Slavery and sharecropping don't explain the situation this family is in. Where are the fathers?? Where are the mothers for that matter? If these children had their parents, they would not be as poor, their household would likely be more stable, the would be more diciplined, and they would have a better chance at life. As of right now, those children have little to no chance of making it anywhere.

----------------------------
"What shall we do with the negro?" I have had but one answer from the beginning. Do nothing with us! Your doing with us has already played the mischief with us...if the negro cannot stand on his own legs, let him fall - Frederick Douglass

  

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Nettrice
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117. "Well"
In response to Reply # 94


  

          

>but it
>has deteriorated now worse then it's ever been in history.

Why is that? I say it's progression that started with slavery.

>Slavery and sharecropping don't explain the situation this
>family is in. Where are the fathers?? Where are the mothers
>for that matter?

The word in the film title is "Kin" because the families are right there. Those kids have their parents and sometimes their grandparents. That's why I reference this film.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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jackie chiles
Member since Jul 10th 2003
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Wed Jul-13-05 01:45 PM

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66. "There was a similar film"
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

called Love and Diane that was based in Brooklyn.

http://www.wmm.com/loveanddiane/

It was equally heartbreaking in outlining the struggles of people who never got a fair shot at a decent life, but still somehow managed to maintain.
________________________________________
Smackin' ponks in the mouf for 2005

Listening To

~ Street Life - Street Education
~ Sean Price - Monkey Barz
~ Platinum Pied Pipers - PPP
~ Jeremy Ellis - the Lotus Blossoms
~ Common - Be
~ Raheem Devaugn - The L

  

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Nettrice
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Wed Jul-13-05 02:26 PM

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69. "I've heard of it"
In response to Reply # 66


  

          

>It was equally heartbreaking in outlining the struggles of
>people who never got a fair shot at a decent life, but still
>somehow managed to maintain.

This is hope.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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sonnyredd
Member since May 04th 2005
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Wed Jul-13-05 12:04 PM

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16. "RE: The definitive race post, used to enlighten white people:"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Interestingly Otto, you have the answers rightr before you. Most of us don't lay the blame for our community at the white man's feet. You have confused OKP with all black people. It's ok, it happens. Just as you have divergent voices here, you have divergent voices inside the community. It all is becoming an issue of class. Poor people don't think it's fair that they're poor, while the middle class figures it is the poor folks own fault.

The difference between white and black, the difference between black and black, the difference between the USA and Rwanda, all boils down to the difference between the haves and the have-nots.

It is not whose blood that is the measure of a man; but how much blood he puts into betterment.

Granted, 9 to 5 is how you survive. I ain't trying to survive, I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it alot.

Peep the politics...
http://thefellclutchofcircumstance.blogspot.com/

  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
9433 posts
Wed Jul-13-05 12:13 PM

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20. "nigga"
In response to Reply # 16


          

black people make 650 billion dollars a year now, and u are talking about haves and have nots. cut the bullshit.

  

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sonnyredd
Member since May 04th 2005
150 posts
Wed Jul-13-05 01:08 PM

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57. "RE: nigga"
In response to Reply # 20


          

this is the problem with skimming, you miss stuff...

as I said "the difference between black and black" are the differences between the haves and the have nots. Though admittedly, I should have said the differences "AMONG", but thats semantics.

BTW- I really don't see the point/critisism you are trying to make.

Granted, 9 to 5 is how you survive. I ain't trying to survive, I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it alot.

Peep the politics...
http://thefellclutchofcircumstance.blogspot.com/

  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
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Wed Jul-13-05 01:22 PM

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62. "i try to keep it simple 4 the simple minded"
In response to Reply # 57
Wed Jul-13-05 01:23 PM by suave_bro

          

your argument is that blacks are the have nots. being the wealthiest group of black people in the history of black people in the free world does not qualify as being a "have not" friend. go to targetmarketnews.com and have a field day...

now it seems that u have changed/explained your argument, but i was simply answering your "i dont get your point" statement.

  

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LexM
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130. "i agree."
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

.

  

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Otto
Member since Dec 19th 2002
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Wed Jul-13-05 04:52 PM

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87. "I feel like we haven't stayed on topic...n/m"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

-Otto

  

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Nettrice
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92. "See #91"
In response to Reply # 87


  

          

You asked for an "honest, open dialog" and I think you got it. It may not answer your questions but as Rainer Maria Rilke put it

"...I would like to beg you dear Sir, as well as I can, to have
patience with everything unresolved in your heart and to try to love
the questions themselves as if they were locked rooms or books written
in a very foreign language. Don't search for the answers, which could
not be given to you now, because you would not be able to live them.
And the point is to live everything. Live the questions now. Perhaps
then, someday far in the future, you will gradually, without even
noticing it, live your way into the answer."

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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LexM
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Fri Jul-15-05 02:45 PM

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124. "darlin, you keep asking these broad, 400 yr old questions"
In response to Reply # 87


  

          

just about everything can be traced back to the "topic".

~~~~
~*~musical revolution~*~

"The world was warned about this...The CIA calls what happened in London today "blowback." It is wrong, it is heinous, it is murder plain and simple, and it was as predictable as the sun rising in the East." ~Wm Rivers Pitt

  

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JahSeed
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Thu Jul-14-05 09:46 AM

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95. "7 Reasons for Our Peoples' Insanity"
In response to Reply # 0


          

1. Whites' Invasion of Africa:
The Start of the Ending...

2. American Slavery:
History doesn't tell of a more calculated form of taking everything away from a human being- one's freedom, name, religion, history. Centuries of this will do something to a person, don't ya think?

3. Whites' Fear of the Black Male:
From things as extreme as hangings and castration (which still happen today in America & Worldwide) to those more subtle such as the elevation of Black Women in the workplace over Black Men, white people still want very little to do with brothers if doesn't involve our entertaining them in some way...

4. Jim Crow & Current "Justice" System:
Consistent post-slavery shackles for the brown-skinned in this country.

5. Drugs (from the 1920s-Present):
Heroin to destroy the Renaissance, Crack to destroy the common man, the rest of it (weed, malt liquor, etc.) to make sure we get the fix we've been conditioned to need, and all of the above to keep us "Locked Up" (as the song goes)...

6. The Prison Industrial Complex:
The New & Improved Slave System. If you don't believe it, read the history on the # of prisons in this country during slavery and immediately after as compared to today. Absolutely Nuts! (The free labor that comes out of prisons??? Ask any brother who has spent more than 3 months on lockdown...)

6. Breakdown of the Black Family:
Quite simply, an accumulation of all of the above (and then some).

7. A Majority (white people) Who Think Everything is Great Now & a Government That REALLY Doesn't Give a Flying Fizzuck
(Last, But Not Least, of Course)


How to Fix It:
Well, I hate to be the cynic, but in the words of the god Bob Marley:
"Total Destruction, the Only Solution..."

Our problems will never be solved b/c it's rooted in too much heavy shit over CENTURIES that no one wants to or can adequately address (including Black people). I think the most any of can do is try our best not to contribute to the madness and "give back" (I know its cliche) when we can...Just my 2 cents...

  

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sunngodd
Member since Feb 20th 2003
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Thu Jul-14-05 09:55 AM

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96. "Is ANY of it our fault?"
In response to Reply # 95
Thu Jul-14-05 09:59 AM by sunngodd

  

          

---------------------
"What shall we do with the negro?" I have had but one answer from the beginning. Do nothing with us! Your doing with us has already played the mischief with us...if the negro cannot stand on his own legs, let him fall - Frederick Douglass

  

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Otto
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Thu Jul-14-05 11:56 AM

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105. "Two questions:"
In response to Reply # 95


  

          

1.) If blacks see a government that doesn't care about the situation of blacks, and such a government is truly a hinderance to the progress of the black community, why are blacks known to not show up to vote?

2.)

"Whites' Fear of the Black Male:
From things as extreme as hangings and castration (which still happen today in America & Worldwide) to those more subtle such as the elevation of Black Women in the workplace over Black Men, white people still want very little to do with brothers if doesn't involve our entertaining them in some way..."

^^I do not think you can prove that white people are "afraid" of black males. However, if this *is* a fear, which I am not saying it is, would it be accurate to say the the heartless, gangsta image of a violent community portrayed by the mainstream hip hop artists and their respective media outlets would be what causes such a fear? Also, if this image is not accurate, and BY NO MEANS AM I SUGGESTING IT IS--if this image does not accurately portray the black mentality which would be what whites fear---why do blacks continue to support such demeaning music? If they support it becasue they feel it is an accurate representation of their mindset, wouldn't a white male be right to fear someone with such a temperament?

-Otto

  

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Taharka
Member since Apr 18th 2003
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Thu Jul-14-05 10:29 AM

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97. "Most white folks know the truth however continue to live a lie"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

like many people. Let these fools stay in their lying darkness Ill just sharpen my blades in the mean time.

<--- The lovely Ms Hill when she wasn't thrown off.

LOOK WHOS RAPPIN NOW
http://www.myspace.com/quil215

  

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Otto
Member since Dec 19th 2002
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Thu Jul-14-05 11:39 AM

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101. "And what is the truth?"
In response to Reply # 97


  

          

Thanks for replying.

-Otto

  

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Taharka
Member since Apr 18th 2003
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Thu Jul-14-05 11:44 AM

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102. "Truth is race is a figment of the europeans imagination"
In response to Reply # 101


  

          

that was created out of their guilt trip/ scientific reasoning period.

<--- The lovely Ms Hill when she wasn't thrown off.

LOOK WHOS RAPPIN NOW
http://www.myspace.com/quil215

  

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Otto
Member since Dec 19th 2002
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Thu Jul-14-05 11:58 AM

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106. "How could race be created out of guilt?"
In response to Reply # 102


  

          

Why would they have guilt, if there were not already races? You cannot have guilt about the way you treat a race, if your guilt is what created that race. It's a chronological contratiction.

  

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LexM
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126. "it's a social construct."
In response to Reply # 106


  

          

a lot of the mess started out due to economics.

but then they started treating ppl like shit, so it was like, "how can we keep this going...ppl aren't going to go for the 'it's all about the money' angle forever."

enter new "scientific theories" about the exotic, totally-different-from-us africans (or whatever the slave du jour happened to be). not to mention warping religion, etc.

basically, someone realized they could capitalize upon people's natural tendencies to categorize and stereotype.

what was just a simple psychological tool to keep the brain from going into overload became the bane of several groups' existence.

in a nutshell.

~~~~
~*~musical revolution~*~

"The world was warned about this...The CIA calls what happened in London today "blowback." It is wrong, it is heinous, it is murder plain and simple, and it was as predictable as the sun rising in the East." ~Wm Rivers Pitt

  

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Mignight Maruder
Member since Nov 30th 2003
6359 posts
Thu Jul-14-05 11:29 AM

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100. "This post will go Nowhere"
In response to Reply # 0
Thu Jul-14-05 11:32 AM by Mignight Maruder

  

          

From 22 years of experience, I've learned that most ppl wanna stay stuck in the past....Its pretty sad and lame, to be honest....A lot of stuff still remains the same in this country; although blacks and whites are much more integrated today, they still often live separate from one another....The separation often causes the animosity and fear towards one another....


EDIT: I could add so much more on this topic, but really its so played out to me and often too complex to get into....





"We were but stones, your light made us stars" --Light Years


  

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LexM
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Fri Jul-15-05 02:43 PM

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123. "what kind of reading have you done on the topic?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

some suggestions (if you haven't read them already):

walter rodney's "how europe underdeveloped africa"

just about everything by franz fanon

"the miseducation of the negro"

howard zinn's "a people's history of the united states"

cornel west's "race matters"

my sense is that, until you've got a base of knowledge to draw from, you're not going to "get it". and if you have read these things....what did you get out of them?

i also tend to agree with this guy on a lot of topics: http://www.timwise.org/

my point is that gathering personal opinions isn't going to mean much until you understand more about the history behind how all this shit got so fucked up in the first place.

yes, we need to do something now. that doesn't mean that history is useless in the struggle. as a matter of fact, it's one of the best tools we have.

~~~~
~*~musical revolution~*~

"The world was warned about this...The CIA calls what happened in London today "blowback." It is wrong, it is heinous, it is murder plain and simple, and it was as predictable as the sun rising in the East." ~Wm Rivers Pitt

  

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Otto
Member since Dec 19th 2002
4624 posts
Fri Jul-15-05 03:55 PM

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134. "thank you. nm"
In response to Reply # 123


  

          

-Otto

  

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Bdiddy04
Member since Oct 28th 2004
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Sat Jul-16-05 11:04 PM

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140. "Read the archives"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

_______________________________________
Follow me @bstokessmooth

  

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t1nydanc3r
Member since Apr 15th 2005
512 posts
Sun Jul-17-05 01:23 PM

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141. "..."
In response to Reply # 0
Sun Jul-17-05 01:27 PM by t1nydanc3r

  

          

...

~* poetry *~

  

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thegodcam
Member since Oct 22nd 2004
38976 posts
Sat Jun-14-08 02:29 PM

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149. "RE: The definitive race post, used to enlighten white people:"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

*******************************************************
i will not let finite disappointment undermine infinite hope
- Cory Booker

Football is a simple game; 22 men chase a ball for 90 minutes, and at the end the Germans always win
- Gary Lineker

  

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