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Subject: "Folk talk about Social Security, but pensions are in" Previous topic | Next topic
FireBrand
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Tue Mar-29-05 12:56 PM

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"Folk talk about Social Security, but pensions are in"


  

          

immediate trouble. Pensions nationwide are facing real issues. Employers are faced with either cutting back on labor, or making outrageous contributions in order to keep the generous pension plans many in America have become used to.

In order to view the link, you might need to register with the Atlanta Business Chronicle. When I read this a few days back, I was shocked.
Finance heads, Economics heads please weigh in.

http://atlanta.bizjournals.com/atlanta/stories/2005/03/28/story1.html


The 31,000 pension plans run by American businesses now have an estimated collective shortfall of $450 billion, a record figure, according to the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp. (PBGC), a government entity that insures pension funds and must assume liability when they fail.

Much of the underfunding that has accumulated has been a direct result of the weak economy that has persisted for nearly five years, pension experts say.

Unlike 401(k) plans that allow employees and employers to make steady contributions to retirement programs, funding requirements for traditional "defined benefit" pension plans can change drastically from year to year. That's because contribution amounts are based on a complex formula of interest rates and the performance of existing portfolio investments.

Since most pension plans are heavily invested in the stock markets (which performed poorly for four of the last five years) and interest rates remain at near-record lows, scores of companies are having to cough up hundreds of millions of dollars to make up the difference and satisfy the minimum pension contribution amounts due each year.

Delta estimates its payment for 2005 will be $450 million, while Northwest says it must pay $420 million and American projects a payment of $310 million.

"There has been this perfect storm over the last five years that we've never seen before -- both the stock market and interest rates went down and then stayed down for a very long time," said Ron Gebhardtsbauer, senior pension fellow with the nonpartisan American Academy of Actuaries. "We've never seen that happen before to this extent. In the early '80s, interest rates went down but stocks were stable. In 1987, the stock market fell 33 percent, but interest rates were steady. This is new territory for pensions."










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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
RE: Folk talk about Social Security, but pensions are in
Mar 29th 2005
1
can be scary, can't it? If you don't have a plan in place.
Mar 29th 2005
4
      RE: can be scary, can't it? If you don't have a plan in place.
Mar 29th 2005
6
           I'm aware of this. That's their fault tho. Would you leave
Mar 29th 2005
10
The article is extensive, I encourage ya'll to read on
Mar 29th 2005
2
Okay, really quickly, I'm late for class...
Mar 29th 2005
3
RE: Okay, really quickly, I'm late for class...
Mar 29th 2005
7
Well in America at least these pension plans are privately
Mar 29th 2005
11
RE: Well in America at least these pension plans are privately
Mar 29th 2005
13
      well, the dollar today isn't worth what the dollar will be
Mar 29th 2005
17
Not Exactly
Mar 29th 2005
14
      RE: Not Exactly
Mar 29th 2005
15
      My Bad
Mar 30th 2005
18
      Yeah...so what are your thoughts? I was hoping you'd show
Mar 29th 2005
16
           To be honest, it's tough, real tough
Mar 30th 2005
19
hopefully the stock market will bounce back
Mar 29th 2005
5
RE: hopefully the stock market will bounce back
Mar 29th 2005
8
      RE: hopefully the stock market will bounce back
Mar 29th 2005
9
           RE: hopefully the stock market will bounce back
Mar 29th 2005
12
                RE: hopefully the stock market will bounce back
Mar 30th 2005
20
                     RE: hopefully the stock market will bounce back
Mar 30th 2005
21
                          RE: hopefully the stock market will bounce back
Mar 30th 2005
22
up
Jun 02nd 2005
23

moot_point
Member since Mar 22nd 2005
3809 posts
Tue Mar-29-05 01:00 PM

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1. "RE: Folk talk about Social Security, but pensions are in"
In response to Reply # 0


          

The exact same problem exists in the UK. We have an ageing population too, which compounds the issue.

  

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FireBrand
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Tue Mar-29-05 01:07 PM

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4. "can be scary, can't it? If you don't have a plan in place."
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

what ever will we do? lol...you gotta hedge for it.
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******************************
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<---- LOMU!

  

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moot_point
Member since Mar 22nd 2005
3809 posts
Tue Mar-29-05 01:51 PM

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6. "RE: can be scary, can't it? If you don't have a plan in place."
In response to Reply # 4


          

>what ever will we do? lol...you gotta hedge for it.
>******************************


Problem is, millions of people have invested in private pension schemes to discover that their money has been poorly invested (and is thus now worthless) or has been stolen (Robert Maxwell).


http://www.csis.org/press/ma_2003_0602.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Maxwell

  

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FireBrand
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Tue Mar-29-05 04:47 PM

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10. "I'm aware of this. That's their fault tho. Would you leave"
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

Your kids at what you felt was a good day care without making sure that they were okay, checking up on them, keeping up with the skill level of the employees there, doing deep research on their child care methods, etc...?

Then why wouldn't you do that for your retirement and investment plans?

That's just shoddy investment.

******************************
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******************************
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<---- LOMU!

  

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FireBrand
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Tue Mar-29-05 01:07 PM

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2. "The article is extensive, I encourage ya'll to read on"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

It's about delta, but it goes on to explain how companies get in that situation.

You never know what your company might be doing...
******************************
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******************************
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<---- LOMU!

  

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Pinko_Panther
Member since Dec 11th 2002
11487 posts
Tue Mar-29-05 01:07 PM

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3. "Okay, really quickly, I'm late for class..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Most of us, on each paycheck, pay tax payments towards some type of national pension plan. What's been going on over the last couple decades, is that national governments -who collect these payments- have been taking all the money and lending it to investors who then play that money on the market. Scary shit huh? What's worse is that the loss of these monies on the market is apparently the prime reason why there have been apparent shortages in pension funds available. At least, this is what has been described to me. Correct me on any innaccuracies because I am quite interested in this topic.

  

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sunngodd
Member since Feb 20th 2003
8324 posts
Tue Mar-29-05 01:55 PM

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7. "RE: Okay, really quickly, I'm late for class..."
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

>Most of us, on each paycheck, pay tax payments towards some
>type of national pension plan. What's been going on over the
>last couple decades, is that national governments -who collect
>these payments- have been taking all the money and lending it
>to investors who then play that money on the market. Scary
>shit huh?

That's the only way to get a good rate of return on your money.
------------------------------

ďHe may be friendly, but he's not your friend." - Malcolm X

  

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FireBrand
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Tue Mar-29-05 04:50 PM

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11. "Well in America at least these pension plans are privately"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

held to my knowledge. They are'nt government funds. The problem is that irregardless of the investment choices made, our market has been down for so long that it was effected returns.

Pension plans right now are worse off than Social Security plans.

And the kicker about this is that it directly effects how, who, and when many employees hire.
******************************
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******************************
Inaug'ral Member of the OkaySports Hall of Fame.

<---- LOMU!

  

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Pinko_Panther
Member since Dec 11th 2002
11487 posts
Tue Mar-29-05 08:14 PM

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13. "RE: Well in America at least these pension plans are privately"
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

I see, I live in Canada where our money is gambled publically as opposed to privately.... fucking system...

  

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FireBrand
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Tue Mar-29-05 10:23 PM

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17. "well, the dollar today isn't worth what the dollar will be"
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

worth in 10 do 15 years let alond 50. You have to get some growth from your investment. A good way to do that is to invest your money in something more dynamic than a bank account. Or a money market.

You also wanna protect it from taxes depending on your plan.

That's why it's a good idea to invest the cash rather than having it sit there.

I'd explain in detail, but I'm kinda tired, and I'm hoping M2 or someone will kinda pick it up. he can explain it better than me.

lol


******************************
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http://profiles.myspace.com/users/3870323
******************************
Inaug'ral Member of the OkaySports Hall of Fame.

<---- LOMU!

  

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M2
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Tue Mar-29-05 08:30 PM

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14. "Not Exactly"
In response to Reply # 3


          

>Most of us, on each paycheck, pay tax payments towards some
>type of national pension plan. What's been going on over the
>last couple decades, is that national governments -who collect
>these payments- have been taking all the money and lending it
>to investors who then play that money on the market. Scary
>shit huh? What's worse is that the loss of these monies on the
>market is apparently the prime reason why there have been
>apparent shortages in pension funds available. At least, this
>is what has been described to me. Correct me on any
>innaccuracies because I am quite interested in this topic.

First of all, this has to do with Private Pension funds which operate completely differently from social security and the problems with the two of them have nothing to do with each other.

As far as the Govt. Goes, the surplus money isn't be lent to Investors - the surplus money has been loaned to the Govt. in the form of special issue bonds, meaning that it's a loan that the Govt. has to pay back with interest.

Private Pension funds are "lent" to Investors, they're directly invested into the markets with the idea of growing the size of the fund, so that the people who are vested in it can benefit financially. It's supposed to be done in a conservative manner so that capital is preserved but the pensioners still see some return.

Some companies are able to do this rather successfully and have extra money from Pensions that they have to report as profit, or find ways to get around reporting it as profit (Like GE) since it's really money that's for the benefit of the pensioners, not the company anyway.

Private Pension funds are in trouble for various reasons whether it's the company raiding it to make up for revenue shortfalls, making financial problems that exceed contributions to the plan, bad planning, etc.

Private Pensions and Social Security are two entirely unrelated issues that have nothing to do with each other.





Peace,











M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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Pinko_Panther
Member since Dec 11th 2002
11487 posts
Tue Mar-29-05 09:09 PM

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15. "RE: Not Exactly"
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

Keep in mind, though, that I live in Canada where the system is more public than in the US...

>>Most of us, on each paycheck, pay tax payments towards some
>>type of national pension plan. What's been going on over the
>>last couple decades, is that national governments -who
>collect
>>these payments- have been taking all the money and lending
>it
>>to investors who then play that money on the market. Scary
>>shit huh? What's worse is that the loss of these monies on
>the
>>market is apparently the prime reason why there have been
>>apparent shortages in pension funds available. At least,
>this
>>is what has been described to me. Correct me on any
>>innaccuracies because I am quite interested in this topic.
>
>First of all, this has to do with Private Pension funds which
>operate completely differently from social security and the
>problems with the two of them have nothing to do with each
>other.
>
>As far as the Govt. Goes, the surplus money isn't be lent to
>Investors - the surplus money has been loaned to the Govt. in
>the form of special issue bonds, meaning that it's a loan that
>the Govt. has to pay back with interest.
>
>Private Pension funds are "lent" to Investors, they're
>directly invested into the markets with the idea of growing
>the size of the fund, so that the people who are vested in it
>can benefit financially. It's supposed to be done in a
>conservative manner so that capital is preserved but the
>pensioners still see some return.
>
>Some companies are able to do this rather successfully and
>have extra money from Pensions that they have to report as
>profit, or find ways to get around reporting it as profit
>(Like GE) since it's really money that's for the benefit of
>the pensioners, not the company anyway.
>
>Private Pension funds are in trouble for various reasons
>whether it's the company raiding it to make up for revenue
>shortfalls, making financial problems that exceed
>contributions to the plan, bad planning, etc.
>
>Private Pensions and Social Security are two entirely
>unrelated issues that have nothing to do with each other.
>
>
>
>
>
>Peace,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>M2
>

  

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M2
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Wed Mar-30-05 02:55 AM

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18. "My Bad"
In response to Reply # 15


          


Didn't realize you were Canadian.



Peace,






M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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FireBrand
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Tue Mar-29-05 10:18 PM

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16. "Yeah...so what are your thoughts? I was hoping you'd show"
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

up here...with both pension plans and social security in trouble, and interest rates down- the dollar weak with no real stimulus for growth other than alternative energy and nanotech in the near future...

How are you setting up your retirement. I got more aggressive, but I just don't know enough.

I'm really interested in getting my series 6 and 7 in large part so I can help my friends and family invest and prepare for their future (and maybe get an opportunity to be a broker at the j-o).

holla at me.



******************************
www.okayplayer.com/guidelines

http://profiles.myspace.com/users/3870323
******************************
Inaug'ral Member of the OkaySports Hall of Fame.

<---- LOMU!

  

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M2
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Wed Mar-30-05 03:14 AM

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19. "To be honest, it's tough, real tough"
In response to Reply # 16
Wed Mar-30-05 03:27 AM by M2

          

And I'm friggin sleepy so I'll just go quickly off the top of my head and share more later:

My basic plan for this year/retirement in general is as follows:

-I tend to be a Cash Whorder - so I need to invest more aggressively and not be so conservative. I'm afraid to lose money and that keeps my returns down.

-I need to make a stronger effort to make out retirement accounts, particularly because I'm going to have self-employment income this summer.

-I'm keeping an eye towards emerging markets in foreign countries, rapid societal change can create growth even if a particular industry isn't a "growth area" to G8 nations. Africa, Asia and Latin America are going to provide the growth in the 21st century, just via increased industrialization and economic development.

I think of it like this, if there is a town of 5,000 people where everyone has cable and all of a sudden 10,000 teenagers finish high school, rent their own apartments and become cable subscribers there will be growth.

Societal changes will be a key driver of economic growth, people just need to stop thinking of "growth" in terms of what's going to be a growth area for the G8.

(this is turning stream of conciousness)

-Commodities: People need Tin, Steel, Wood, Oil, etc, et. There are countries that haven't really gotten going with respect to tapping their natural resources, as the Global Economy grows, there will be demand.

-Read the Forbes Global Billionaire's list: you will find people who are making absurd amounts of money via selling rather mundane items and services. Nanotech and Alternative energy are cool, but people still need basic items like shoes.

Any product that can be sold profitably and in increasing amounts is a growth area to invest in.

-No matter what the economy is doing, Rich people seem to get richer? Why because there is always a way to make a lot of money, no matter what the economy is doing. Rich people know how to find these ways or hire people that can find them.

SO - if you do the basics, max out retirement accounts, live below your means, maximize your income via developing multiple streams or just doing well at work, and remember the above - you should be able to find "some way" to make money.

Yes, things look Bleak - but Warren Buffet just made $1.9 Billion by shorting the dollar in the 4th Quarter of 2004 ALONE.

Finally - remember that the old economic rules are over, you really need to dig deep and analyze the fundamentals of any potential decision before just moving forward with it.

For instance, in the Seattle area - it's about 15-40% cheaper to rent an Apartment than to Buy a nearly Identical Condo (depending on the units/location, etc). In one instance, I'm talking about an Apt. Complex (Garden Apartments) that was taken Condo and a nearly identical Apt. Complex accross the street.

I wanted to buy one of the Condos, until I saw that the Apartments accross the street rented for so much cheaper that I was saving 25%/month in cash flow (including the equity and tax benefits). So maybe "buying is cheaper than renting" isn't always true.

I would need one hell of a return on that property for it to be worth my while.

It's amazing how similar the properties are too.

You know, I'm not sure I really answered your question - but these are just some of the things rattling around my brain when I think of building wealth under today's economic conditions.





Peace,








M2



The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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sunngodd
Member since Feb 20th 2003
8324 posts
Tue Mar-29-05 01:08 PM

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5. "hopefully the stock market will bounce back"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

but summer oil prices might mean that won't happen anytime soon

in the meantime, maybe these companies will have to find the money somewhere else, like the huge payoffs the execs get when they leave.
------------------------------

ďHe may be friendly, but he's not your friend." - Malcolm X

  

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moot_point
Member since Mar 22nd 2005
3809 posts
Tue Mar-29-05 02:01 PM

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8. "RE: hopefully the stock market will bounce back"
In response to Reply # 5


          

...well as soon as the West can fully control, distribute the oil in Iraq, this will bring the price down and solve the problem then?

Conspiracy theorist - I know - but doesn't it follow good logic?

  

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sunngodd
Member since Feb 20th 2003
8324 posts
Tue Mar-29-05 02:22 PM

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9. "RE: hopefully the stock market will bounce back"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

>...well as soon as the West can fully control, distribute the
>oil in Iraq, this will bring the price down and solve the
>problem then?
>
>Conspiracy theorist - I know - but doesn't it follow good
>logic?

I don't know exactly how that's gonna work, someone else is going to have to fill you in. On one hand, it's not like America is going to control the terrirtory, Iraq is going to be and independent country. On the other hand, you're probably going to have American oil companies over there. I'm not sure how that translates into cheaper oil prices for us though, maybe we're going to get some kind of "special deal" in exchange for liberating the country.

But i'm really not clear as to how overthrowing Saddam is going to translate into cheaper oil prices, maybe someone can help me out.


------------------------------

ďHe may be friendly, but he's not your friend." - Malcolm X

  

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moot_point
Member since Mar 22nd 2005
3809 posts
Tue Mar-29-05 05:35 PM

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12. "RE: hopefully the stock market will bounce back"
In response to Reply # 9


          

>I don't know exactly how that's gonna work, someone else is
>going to have to fill you in. On one hand, it's not like
>America is going to control the terrirtory, Iraq is going to
>be and independent country. On the other hand, you're
>probably going to have American oil companies over there. I'm
>not sure how that translates into cheaper oil prices for us
>though, maybe we're going to get some kind of "special deal"
>in exchange for liberating the country.

>But i'm really not clear as to how overthrowing Saddam is
>going to translate into cheaper oil prices, maybe someone can
>help me out.

Firstly, the price of oil has been so high for the past few years as result of the global shortage of supply - thanks to the Iraq war. Once the oilfields in Iraq anre controlled and safe for distribution, the global supply will again increase. Increased supply reduces price; its a economic principle.

Secondly, there is a consensus in the UK that the issue with Iraq related to the explicit appropriation of oil. I have not always subsribed to this. I think the reasons for war have been several, and US and UK governments could not allow themselves to be seen as entering Iraq and simply forcing the oil barons to hand over their fields. However, governments and business owners make great bedfellows. Look at the Former Soviet Union. Those barons who have pandered to Putin (such as Abravomich) have been allowed to amass obscene fortunes; whereas those who have not have been investigated, indicted etc. Now that the US and UK have imposed democracy upon Iraq (with what many consider a puppet government), this country is ostensibly a political friend of the west. In the light of this you can see how many 'special deals' may arise between the new Iraq government, the oilfield owners of the country and the west..

  

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P M I
Member since Mar 29th 2005
6 posts
Wed Mar-30-05 06:09 AM

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20. "RE: hopefully the stock market will bounce back"
In response to Reply # 12


          

much the same economic model could be levelled at the democratization of afghanistan and the subsequent reduction in cost of cocaine on the streets of the west, do you have a personal opinion on those diverse issues? please feel free to bandy trite obscure quotes about in response......

  

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moot_point
Member since Mar 22nd 2005
3809 posts
Wed Mar-30-05 06:17 AM

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21. "RE: hopefully the stock market will bounce back"
In response to Reply # 20


          

I thought Afghanistan produced heroin, not cocaine.

http://pakistantimes.net/2004/03/22/scoop.htm

  

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moot_point
Member since Mar 22nd 2005
3809 posts
Wed Mar-30-05 06:54 AM

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22. "RE: hopefully the stock market will bounce back"
In response to Reply # 21
Wed Mar-30-05 07:02 AM by moot_point

          

So I haven't got a clue. Perhaps you can explain how this model works.

  

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FireBrand
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Thu Jun-02-05 06:57 PM

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23. "up"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


Rules to post by (Break them, get deleted): http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines

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<<<<----Sam Sharpe. 3rd World people, remember where ya coming from!

  

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